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Star Wars Galaxies

Star Wars Galaxies 

SWG Veteran Refuge  » So why hasn't SWG bounced back... honestly.

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138 posts found
  SWGmodAlpha

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/09
Posts: 133

2/02/10 12:19:27 PM#101
Originally posted by ArcAngel3
Originally posted by ericlatrelle
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Here is the answer to every game that someone posts this question about (SWG, Vanguard, AoC, WAR etc etc etc.):

 Once you piss people off, or disappoint people, or make major changes that the regular players hated, all those people will leave and never try the game again. Once you drive off gamers they are done with your title, they don't think back and say "Hey that's the game that pissed me off and was a giant failure, man I want to try it again." No instead everytime they hear the name they think "I hate that terrible friggin game, I'm glad it's not doing well." That is just how gamers are.

 So once a game has blown it's shot to impress gamers, or changed the game drastically and pissed off those who were impressed with the game, it never gets another chance. One mistake in the MMO world and you lose a section of gamers, it really comes down to which game launches smoothly and makes the least mistakes.

 Back in the day gamers would try MMOs a second or third time but that is because there were only 4-5 choices. So you had to forgive mistakes if you wanted to play an MMO. Now there are an insane number of choices so when gamers get pissed they just try something else, and they keep doing that until they find one that keeps them happy for a while.

 One shot, that's all you get as a game. One mistake can end any hopes of having a large playerbase.

 Post of the year.

That really is a fantastic summary of the MMO world these days I think.


 

I agree, a good answer.  However, what you say is true for all business and that makes it all the more stupid that people who manage games don't know better.  Well, at least at SOE.

I am convinced that SOE is run by accounts that are trying to count the money before it is made.

That said, it is possible to recover from major business failures.  Toyota is a great example.  Their actions, despite the failure, have proven that they are commited to the quality of their product and safety of their customers.

SOE never made any such effort what so ever.  Had they, maybe the game could have recovered.

When game makers stop acting like they can do what ever they want cause it is just a game, they might see greater success.

Atm, all I see is low quality, short cutting, poor CS, terrible TS, incomplete products rushed to market and a total lack of respect for the majority of gamers.

It's almost like gamers are the hippies of their day.

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5102

2/02/10 12:48:13 PM#102
Originally posted by SWGmodAlpha
Originally posted by ArcAngel3
Originally posted by ericlatrelle
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Here is the answer to every game that someone posts this question about (SWG, Vanguard, AoC, WAR etc etc etc.):

 Once you piss people off, or disappoint people, or make major changes that the regular players hated, all those people will leave and never try the game again. Once you drive off gamers they are done with your title, they don't think back and say "Hey that's the game that pissed me off and was a giant failure, man I want to try it again." No instead everytime they hear the name they think "I hate that terrible friggin game, I'm glad it's not doing well." That is just how gamers are.

 So once a game has blown it's shot to impress gamers, or changed the game drastically and pissed off those who were impressed with the game, it never gets another chance. One mistake in the MMO world and you lose a section of gamers, it really comes down to which game launches smoothly and makes the least mistakes.

 Back in the day gamers would try MMOs a second or third time but that is because there were only 4-5 choices. So you had to forgive mistakes if you wanted to play an MMO. Now there are an insane number of choices so when gamers get pissed they just try something else, and they keep doing that until they find one that keeps them happy for a while.

 One shot, that's all you get as a game. One mistake can end any hopes of having a large playerbase.

 Post of the year.

That really is a fantastic summary of the MMO world these days I think.


 

I agree, a good answer.  However, what you say is true for all business and that makes it all the more stupid that people who manage games don't know better.  Well, at least at SOE.

I am convinced that SOE is run by accounts that are trying to count the money before it is made.

That said, it is possible to recover from major business failures.  Toyota is a great example.  Their actions, despite the failure, have proven that they are commited to the quality of their product and safety of their customers.

SOE never made any such effort what so ever.  Had they, maybe the game could have recovered.

When game makers stop acting like they can do what ever they want cause it is just a game, they might see greater success.

Atm, all I see is low quality, short cutting, poor CS, terrible TS, incomplete products rushed to market and a total lack of respect for the majority of gamers.

It's almost like gamers are the hippies of their day.

Great post, pretty much sums up a lot of the factors i think, and there also seems to be a certain amount of 'contagion' after all, are there any SOE titles that are actually doing all that well ?  My guess is that SOE arent all that good at learning from their mistakes - though i guess you first have to admit that you did make a mistake before you learn from it, much the same as alcoholics have to admit to themselves they have a problem with alcohol, before they can deal with it...
 

  User Deleted
2/06/10 11:54:08 PM#103
Originally posted by Khalathwyr

1 cup of SOE giving an existing customer base the middle finger

1 cup of taking a unique character progression system and making it closer to more of the same

2/3 cup of word of mouth

1 1/3 cup of many gamers having the memory of elephants and the tenacity of tigers

For someone to suggest it is a "smear campaign" only speaks to their ignorance on various levels. The actions of SOE are the cause of what they are getting gamer community wise today. They are "owed" a clean slate  just as much as their  former customers are "owed" classic servers.

I find it funny that they (SOE) and some "fans" of them are now crying that they deserve such a tabula rasa and they expect that it should be given them yet they will extend no such courtesy with the above mentioned classic server. It's SOE's right to take a customer be damned approach with their games. It is their game, afterall. That said, the opinions of their practices are the domain of their customers, past and present. SOE has not right to submit demands on those opinions because of them, if they are, causing financial distress to their product. Instead they should try changing their business approaches and take some "good faith" actions if they want to rid themselves of this laughably perceived "smear campaign".

QFT- Well said

  kuraikenshin

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/01/05
Posts: 48

2/09/10 10:18:06 PM#104
Originally posted by ArcAngel3
Originally posted by ericlatrelle
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Here is the answer to every game that someone posts this question about (SWG, Vanguard, AoC, WAR etc etc etc.):

 

Once you piss people off, or disappoint people, or make major changes that the regular players hated, all those people will leave and never try the game again. Once you drive off gamers they are done with your title, they don't think back and say "Hey that's the game that pissed me off and was a giant failure, man I want to try it again." No instead everytime they hear the name they think "I hate that terrible friggin game, I'm glad it's not doing well." That is just how gamers are.

 

So once a game has blown it's shot to impress gamers, or changed the game drastically and pissed off those who were impressed with the game, it never gets another chance. One mistake in the MMO world and you lose a section of gamers, it really comes down to which game launches smoothly and makes the least mistakes.

 

Back in the day gamers would try MMOs a second or third time but that is because there were only 4-5 choices. So you had to forgive mistakes if you wanted to play an MMO. Now there are an insane number of choices so when gamers get pissed they just try something else, and they keep doing that until they find one that keeps them happy for a while.

 

One shot, that's all you get as a game. One mistake can end any hopes of having a large playerbase.

 

Post of the year.


 

That really is a fantastic summary of the MMO world these days I think.

 

Very good post, but IMO you can't blame SWG's failure entirely on the CU/NGE thing. Lets be honest- the game was released incomplete, if you were like me and one of the people who'd been waiting years for the game's release, then you might remember how the servers were all down on launch day. I didn't know it then but it was foretelling a grave future for the MMO; walking about, taking shuttle ports everywhere. Innovation came in the form of vehicles.. down the line... jedi and holocrons... but that's beside the point. I remember being very much into the game. It's a SW sandbox first and foremost and that alone attracted a loyal fanbase. Personally, I still love the housing and city structure in WoW. The fact that this 'structure' has resulted in endless stretches of ghost towns is irrelevant...
 
 The truth is, the game had flaws from the start. I remember when the theme parks were released, the first I tried... I can't remember the name of... but you went from Jabba's palace to some space ship where super battle droids would glitch through the walls, and come at you in narrow corridors they didn't even fit in. This only added fuel to the fire for me- SWG already had a painfully boring quest system. Most of which revolved around going to waypoints in remote locations, there was no immersion even when you were doing quests for key characters like Luke or Han.. I left SWG long before NGE was released for WoW. Why? Because at one point I was playing JTL more then the rest of the game, and it dawned on me I could just as easily reinstall X Wing Alliance for that kind of fun, and not have to pay a monthly bill. As fun as sandboxes are, there's only so much you can do to entertain yourself in one when the game offers no real direction for your character.
 
 I digress. My opinion on why SWG hasn't bounced back: when WoW was released it simply couldn't compete. CHANGE. WAS. NECESARY. The fact that the change only made a flawed game worse is a matter of opinion, but it did have it's desired result, I believe- I actually returned to SWG from WoW when I heard about the CU. And in all honesty, I liked the changes made, because it offered a group dynamic the game didn't really have before- with it's snares, distinct skill roles, etc.. of course, when obiwan was released along with the NGE, everything went down the gutter. SWG will not bounce back because SoE has turned it's star wars gem into an experiment in manipulating the mmo market. That is my conspiracy theory here. If you think about it, it's not entirely insane.
 
 I've never played a game that went through such massive changes while I was playing, but it's understandable that they would change their game to attract a new market, or to give other MMOs competition. The fact that it didn't work out for a good deal of it's subscribes speaks for itself. SWG has not bounced back because it no longer caters to the MMO community so much as it caters to the fans. Just look at the veteran rewards- and all the subsequent rewards from buying the bundles and whatnot. SWG will not bounce back because it was never much of a gem to begin with... you can polish a turd all you want but all you're going to do is spread crap around.
 
 And that's exactly what SWG is. A big smear of crap. That's all I have to say- it's sad, but SWG won't make a comeback, not even with classic servers.

  Lonestryder

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/02/07
Posts: 167

_______
4 4 4

2/09/10 10:36:08 PM#105
Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Some great responses already.  I agree with it being a combination of quality issues and throwing players under the bus.  Of course people are going to discuss this on MMO dicussion forums, so word of mouth probably plays some role.  Imo, horrible management of the game and its customers led to bad word of mouth though, not the other way around.

I also want to add that in spite of all the problems in the past, I consider returning to SWG.  Why?  Because I love StarWars, MMOs and the MMO gaming community.

Here's what stops me: I usually don't have long to wait before SOE seems to give the finger to their players yet again.  I'll list just a few examples that have come to light long after the NGE.

-Adding RMT, game-changing loot to games like Everquest, after saying that they were against doing this,

-Adding RMT to SWG at the expense of crafters and content that would otherwise be included in the subscription fee,

-Making game-changing loot available for SWG via the card game, and encouraging people to pay real cash for only a random chance to win it,

-Running their TCG game tournaments in such a manner that they were banned in numerous states (requiring an entry fee for a random chance of winning prizes),

-Completely changing the business model for Free Realms, after the game went live,

-What I see as continuing abuses of power in the moderation of their forums (welcome to the refuge nonetheless Tux).

These are just a few examples.  All of them lead me to the following conclusion: If I play an SOE game, it's probably going to be changed out from under me, I probably won't like the changes, the changes won't be for the players' benefit, and I'm likely to be treated poorly from a business and customer relations standpoint.  Does that sound like an enjoyable online gaming experience, or an entertainment service that I would be willing to pay for?  Lol, not bloody likely. 


 

Outstanding post.

  denvel

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/11
Posts: 2

2/26/11 11:20:06 PM#106

really the disgruntled vets are what is keeping it down. the word is out every where that swg is crap because of the nge. few people try it because of that.

the game has really gotten better since nge though. i still play on and off, and really enjoy it. my only complaint now is that they still have the iconic classes. the game controls are better, the crafting is still unique, gameplay is still grindy.

all in all i don't want a roll back to pre-nge anymore. i just want the profession system back-- and customer service (any customer service would be an upgrade)

 

  Kazara

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/20/06
Posts: 1067

"Denial does not change reality."

2/28/11 7:25:29 AM#107
Originally posted by denvel

really the disgruntled vets are what is keeping it down. the word is out every where that swg is crap because of the nge. few people try it because of that.

the game has really gotten better since nge though. i still play on and off, and really enjoy it. my only complaint now is that they still have the iconic classes. the game controls are better, the crafting is still unique, gameplay is still grindy.

all in all i don't want a roll back to pre-nge anymore. i just want the profession system back-- and customer service (any customer service would be an upgrade)

 

No matter what content or 'shinies' are bolted onto the NGE version of SWG, it still is the 'fail' NGE version at the core. Betweeen an unwanted CU/NGE versions of SWG and $OE, the game was doomed. SWG would have had market staying power if it stuck to the unique and innovative features it had at launch,

In today's market, an MMO has to be well developed and polished at launch to succceed.  Launch is the make or break moment - Ask Trion how well it is doing with Rift! It is amazing how many companies do not respect this reality given the past five years.

  Paradigm68

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/24/11
Posts: 878

2/28/11 7:35:13 AM#108

I would also add age as a factor. The game is old. And in addition to all its problems it also has to compete with other old games that don't have the same problems, but also all the new games that keep coming out.

I was one of those people that used to hope for a pre-nge server, but at some point I realized that it was too long ago and the thrill is gone and if SOE released a pre-nge server it probably wouldn't grab and hold me like it did.

  korvass

Novice Member

Joined: 5/29/06
Posts: 630

Has successfully forgiven SOE/LA for the NGE.

2/28/11 7:38:13 AM#109

I never really did understand the point of bringing a virtual Trading Card Game to an already virtual online game..

Well, I understand SOE's point: cash. Fair play to them, it's their business.

But why would I want to log on to a virtual world to play virtual TCGs?

  Troneas

Old School

Joined: 3/19/09
Posts: 910

SWG Refugee
Fringe Deserter

2/28/11 12:41:59 PM#110
Originally posted by korvass

I never really did understand the point of bringing a virtual Trading Card Game to an already virtual online game..

Well, I understand SOE's point: cash. Fair play to them, it's their business.

But why would I want to log on to a virtual world to play virtual TCGs?

except that it is not "fair play".

 

people pay and have paid a premium subscription price to play that game and have access to all its content and updates.

 

no where in the box did it say that content in the form of in-game virtual items can be obtained by gambling extra money on them.

Because THAT is the reason why people buy TCGs. Only because they might  contain in-game loot that is not obtainable anywhere else. 

 

but you are right in that it is "their business" and they can do (legally, not ethically) whatever they want. 

 

but the results of that are what they are... turning SOE into the biggest joke of the MMORPG industry. 

  ZoeMcCloskey

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/14/05
Posts: 1121

INTJ, fun is fun except when it's not

2/28/11 12:47:20 PM#111
Originally posted by Sortis
Originally posted by Khalathwyr

1 cup of SOE giving an existing customer base the middle finger

1 cup of taking a unique character progression system and making it closer to more of the same

2/3 cup of word of mouth

1 1/3 cup of many gamers having the memory of elephants and the tenacity of tigers

For someone to suggest it is a "smear campaign" only speaks to their ignorance on various levels. The actions of SOE are the cause of what they are getting gamer community wise today. They are "owed" a clean slate  just as much as their  former customers are "owed" classic servers.

I find it funny that they (SOE) and some "fans" of them are now crying that they deserve such a tabula rasa and they expect that it should be given them yet they will extend no such courtesy with the above mentioned classic server. It's SOE's right to take a customer be damned approach with their games. It is their game, afterall. That said, the opinions of their practices are the domain of their customers, past and present. SOE has not right to submit demands on those opinions because of them, if they are, causing financial distress to their product. Instead they should try changing their business approaches and take some "good faith" actions if they want to rid themselves of this laughably perceived "smear campaign".

too true

great post

I still feel burning seething rage inside when I think about SWG :( 

  User Deleted
2/28/11 1:30:43 PM#112

In reply to original post and the poll...

I would have voted "Sony Online Entertainment's continuing arrogance in how they handled the situation".

You see I do not see MMOs as primarily a business. I never have. I never thought they should be. MMOs should be first and foremost a hobby that makes enough money to keep the servers running. That's it and that's all. All the "MMOs are businesses" mindset has given us is crappy MMOs that look great on profit reports but play like crap...

After all is considered, a MMO using the Star Wars IP should have never been made... because there is no way to keep the Suits out of MMOs when they use an IP that big and commercial.

SOE's SWG NGE "incident" is a perfect example of corporate arrogance and greed ruining a hobby and a product that was always meant to be niche and small and should have stayed that way. Most players that have been marketed to and attracted to play MMOs do not belong in MMOs and I am not afraid to say it. These players were brought into MMOs out of greed, nothing more than that and to me that complete BS. Most of the people working in the MMO genre now I don't think belong here either, for I really don't believe they have a clue what MMOs started out as and what MMOs should have stayed as. The only reason the MMO genre needed to change is because some brilliant Einstein thought it needed to grow, and THAT was the first big mistake made right there.

Alas, the damage to the MMO genre is done and cannot be undone... but I am not giving up on how I think the genre should be, nor am I leaving it. I love MMO gaming as a passion too much.

As far as I am concerned, the only thing SOE could do right now to make me feel better about the situation is for SOE to pull out the original pre-CU code and set up /create/ support/ operate a "classic server" with the original code *AND* then pick up where the left off and fix the bugs, and go from there. If SOE does this I will subscribe to this "classic pre-CU" server.

I have already taken one step in SOE's direction. I support and will be playing Vanguard: SOH so I have made a good faith gesture... now it's SOE's turn. I am willing to play nice if they are.

  Comnitus

Novice Member

Joined: 6/03/09
Posts: 2509

Revenge is a dish best served with mayonnaise and those little cheesy things on sticks.

2/28/11 1:33:22 PM#113

Well, this is a silly question. There are legions of MMO vets who say, "NEVER." They've cast Galaxies into the abominable, endless pit of shame, and it is not climbing its way back out. Ever.

  rashhero

Novice Member

Joined: 1/14/07
Posts: 559

Sometimes I'm afraid my sandwich is small and inadequate.

2/28/11 1:34:50 PM#114
Originally posted by Gardavil2

In reply to original post and the poll...

I would have voted "Sony Online Entertainment's continuing arrogance in how they handled the situation".

You see I do not see MMOs as primarily a business. I never have. I never thought they should be. MMOs should be first and foremost a hobby that makes enough money to keep the servers running. That's it and that's all. All the "MMOs are businesses" mindset has given us is crappy MMOs that look great on profit reports but play like crap...

So work should be a hobby and not something to support your family with?

  Daffid011

Old School

Joined: 1/03/04
Posts: 7652

2/28/11 1:39:27 PM#115

There are also millions upon millions of new mmo players who have NEVER been exposed to the issues of the NGE. 

Great games sell themselves and a few harsh words on message boards cannot stop that. 

 

  eyelolled

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/13/10
Posts: 3082

I am more than some of my parts

2/28/11 1:42:27 PM#116

I myself wouldn't even look at SWG after hearing all the disgruntled players speak up about how SOE ruined the game with the NGE. Being that the game is so old now, I don't think I would look at it anyhow but my opinion is primarily a result of what I have read from unhappy players.

All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

  erictlewis

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/08/08
Posts: 3058

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results.

2/28/11 1:48:51 PM#117

Well I read that bunch of bull hockey posted on the swg forums about how its my fault that I hated the nge, and that is my fault that the current product sucks so bad, and how its my fault that like many others I really dislike what the nge did.

I loved swg.  Sure the cu got a lot of us angry.  However the lies and deception from the SWG team was above board.  Lets go back in time.   Does anybody remember the little find on Amazon about the new game, and how there was a lot of folks complaining, but we were all told that was a misprint.  Then we got hit with the nge.

I tried to play after the nge. I even gave it a year.   I was one of the few who I knew that actually kept their mustafar bunkers, instead of taking the refund.

However I got to say the nge ruined the game for me.  Nothing can change that back.  With the lies of being told hey we deleted the code base, we cant restore. (what kind of moron does not have a backup of a game that was four years old).

Honestly if folks want to play it let them, but don't go blaming poor sales on me.  That is on soe for having a crappy game.  If they want to do something about it, let them advertise,  hey we fixed this or that.  We made the NGE even better.  However you will not find soe doing that, to this day I don't remember them ever having a sales campaign, its part of the same problem that we have with EQ2, lack of vision, and lack of advertising.  The game exist on word of mouth.

If you game sux you don't blame the folks who say it sux.  You try to fix why it sux and make it better.

Come see me when we have a swg game that is prior to nge then I will play it, but I refuse to play SWG NGE.

  MMO.Maverick

Inquisitor

Joined: 3/05/10
Posts: 7792

The middle road is the place to be!

2/28/11 1:54:07 PM#118

Lol. This thread is from a year or so ago.

Anyway: "Hell hath no fury than a hardcore fan scorned."

 

Besides SWG being old and suffering the same problem as other old MMO's in pulling in new players, it also has the negative word-of-mouth working against it.

MMO gamers can be pretty obsessive about MMO's, but I honestly haven't seen MMO gamers as a group as obsessive in their holding a grudge as I've seen various SWG vets do; it defies common sense and reasonable behaviour.

The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  User Deleted
2/28/11 1:58:07 PM#119


Originally posted by rashhero


Originally posted by Gardavil2
In reply to original post and the poll...
I would have voted "Sony Online Entertainment's continuing arrogance in how they handled the situation".
You see I do not see MMOs as primarily a business. I never have. I never thought they should be. MMOs should be first and foremost a hobby that makes enough money to keep the servers running. That's it and that's all. All the "MMOs are businesses" mindset has given us is crappy MMOs that look great on profit reports but play like crap...


So work should be a hobby and not something to support your family with?

Don't take what I said out of context. Yes Devs can make a living off their creations. The problem occurs when 50 other people want to make a living off a MMO and they aren't Devs.

  rashhero

Novice Member

Joined: 1/14/07
Posts: 559

Sometimes I'm afraid my sandwich is small and inadequate.

2/28/11 2:02:14 PM#120
Originally posted by Gardavil2

 


Originally posted by rashhero


Originally posted by Gardavil2
In reply to original post and the poll...
I would have voted "Sony Online Entertainment's continuing arrogance in how they handled the situation".
You see I do not see MMOs as primarily a business. I never have. I never thought they should be. MMOs should be first and foremost a hobby that makes enough money to keep the servers running. That's it and that's all. All the "MMOs are businesses" mindset has given us is crappy MMOs that look great on profit reports but play like crap...



So work should be a hobby and not something to support your family with?

Don't take what I said out of context. Yes Devs can make a living off their creations. The problem occurs when 50 other people want to make a living off a MMO and they aren't Devs.

 

 

You mean the people who manage them and own the companies and IP? The janitors who clean up after hours? Secretaries? The people they're renting office space from or the payments they're still making on building costs for their offices? etc..

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