LOL, its 2:30 in the morning where I am, what are you doing up so late (or early as the case may be).

No, actually, now I am much more clear on how grouping is being designed, and in the end, its more along the lines of WOW and most modern games, you don't have to do the group content to get to end game, and even when there (if CoS can really be said to have an endgame) there will be content for both soloers and groupers.

Also, you answered something I was confused//concerned about, that being that if people take the time to group up the greater challenge will result in greater rewards which is what I was hoping for.

As for why I'm up so late... who knows?  But my email 'bonged' when someone posted about the races, which brought me to the site and here I am, cranky and tired answering questions.  I'll probably get shot Monday.

A question, will all weapons be able to be upgraded to 100% and be "bound" to you, or will the game have the traditional this armor is the best in the game for your type of play,don't like how it looks?Oh well shame on you.

It would just be a shame if a game the lets you develop a personal story not permit you to be crazy enough to have a wooden dagger that could be an equal to a steel sword when both are at 100%, it's just that the crafting system begs for a have a unique look instead of everyone wants and has the same sword.

Originally posted by Tanque

A question, will all weapons be able to be upgraded to 100% and be "bound" to you, or will the game have the traditional this armor is the best in the game for your type of play,don't like how it looks?Oh well shame on you.

It would just be a shame if a game the lets you develop a personal story not permit you to be crazy enough to have a wooden dagger that could be an equal to a steel sword when both are at 100%, it's just that the crafting system begs for a have a unique look instead of everyone wants and has the same sword.

 

lol  The choices you give me are to say 'yes, our system stinks' or "No, we will do it the way you think is good'.  But it's OK, because, thankfully, we will NOT make the 'traditional this armor is the best in the game for your type of play,don't like how it looks'.

Our system for equipment is quite different than what is typically used.  But, let's start with this, our designers don't like it when there is an obvious best choice of any piece of equipment that everyone wants.  What we prefer is a system where what is best for you is a choice you must make, and another player might make a different choice because of their play style and evaluation.  There will be no 'Best sword' or "Best shield" only what you think is best. 

Furthermore, you can make equipment more to your liking, develop it in the direction that suits you.  This includes what it does, powers it has, and even the look.

We're not releasing all the details of our system quite yet, though there are parts of it here and there on our web site and in posts in this forum.  But as times moves on we will release more details on the system.  There are a couple of major twists to our system that we are keeping under wraps for now.  But at least I can tell you that you don't need to fear that everyone will use the same things.

Yeah I realy didn't like the way I wrote it but couldn't bother to write something else,I realy don't hate the traditional mmorpg loot system,it's just since I played guild wars I've had a thing for liking to look as I want without being penalized,even vanguard had a good system where you had appearance slots that didn't influence your stats.

Wasn't suposed to be such a black and white question but thanks for the answear.

As long as I have the choice to group or not, I'm happy.  I just know there are days when I just want to pop in and enjoy the world without having to chat up some stranger.  And... there are times when meeting new people and having to cooperate in order to achieve a goal is a blast.  If the game offers both (and from what Jatar says, it does), then all is good.

I'm curious.  I mostly group up with my friends (local) and secondarily, with my guild members (when I belong to one), or I solo.  How many people spend most of their time in their MMO of choice, grouping with strangers?  I'm not judging here, just curious as to what people like to do.

CoS seems to have the mentality that many other MMOs never bother to develop: that player choice is what makes a game fun, as opposed to some games where the grind for rep, gold and exp is more like a job than an escape. There is no 'best possible way' here -- there is only 'your way'.

There are more than a few examples of why it is sometimes better (and possibly necessary) to group in a game like this. The campaign that Jatar mentioned is one such case. This is where multiple groups form together as a raid in order to take on one of Morphael's armies, a castle, a huge monster, etc. In no way, shape, or form should this be something that a solo player could accomplish. When you're at war, you don't send one guy (sorry guys, you don't get to play Rambo in an MMO; then you'd have 10,000 Rambos running around CoS and programmers would hang themselves from all the 80's headbands they'd have to model); you send a warband -- maybe even an army.

Now it is entirely possible with the quest system as it has been described that a lone individual could find himself scouting for an army as part of an on-going storyline, and in that role could accomplish some pretty impressive things. Scouting, assassination, or sabotage missions are meant for solo play, just like wars and battles are MEANT for group/raid play -- they provide more than enough fun in both scenarios.

In the above example, the players who participate in the campaign should receive some hefty rewards -- such a thing is not easy to accomplish, and the leaders of the citadel would naturally reward your feats. But that doesn't mean that players who do nothing else but campaign are going to level, gear, or skill up faster or more efficiently than those who choose to spend their time questing or adventuring. Everything they have mentioned on their site, and here on this forum speaks to the balance of play they want to give us. I doubt they would spend so much time making CoS everything they say it is going to be and then flub the dice over simple game-balance issues.

Grouping is a great way to enjoy certain content the way YOU want to enjoy it. On the other side of the argument, the same could be said about solo play. But having enemies whose AI, numbers and maybe even relative strength changes depending on what they are facing absolutely changes things from MMOs we've played previously. CoS isn't heading down the grind path, or down the end-game path. Those terms have no place here-- the devs seem to care more about making gameplay second-to-none. Too many games sacrifice fun for playing hours -- they don't make enough content for all types of players and end up handing out a 'dungeon a week', or a new daily quest or a new faction to brown-nose. Grouping becomes mandatory for ANY end-game content and as much fun as it can be at first, it ends up being more like a job than a game.

I have a job already, and it pays a heck of a lot more than gaming does......... sob....
 

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Jatar

I'll say again, there will be no forced grouping in CoS.  There will be benefits to grouping, but that is not the same thing. 

1) Solo players who cannot win a battle against a larger group or more powerful opponents and sneak by or skip it will not get the same rewards as a group to takes it on.  There will be challenges that require a group... but you will not have to take on these challenges to go through the game or complete the quest.  You will not reach a point where you cannot progress your quest, where you cannot continue unless you are grouped.  This is what we consider 'forced grouping'. 

Let me give you a real world example.  I was playing LORTO and I got to a point in the Epic Quest line where the next piece of the quest was IMPOSSIBLE to complete without a group. 2)  In fact, it was impossible without a large group.  After several frustrating attempts solo, and then several frustrating attempts with three group members, we finally quit the game, permanently.  I am not alone in this feeling.  I cannot always have a group, I do not always like playing with strangers, but I ALWAYS want to be able to play the game when I want.  That's what I was paying for, I was not paying to be forced to interact with some strangers when I don't feel like it.

CoS will NEVER do this, no matter how many arguments we hear to the contrary.

 1) OK, regarding this point, fair enough, as long as there's an incentive to take the time to form a group in order to obtain greater reward, without impeding a players progress, I'm all for that and its a good idea.

2) Let's examine number two carefully.  I ran into the exact same situation in LotRO, and experienced the same frustration. But the real issue isn't the content you came up against, but the fact that for several reasons you were unable to get past it. 

This is primarily caused by the fact that there is no incentive (in game mechanic) for you and your 3 friends to set aside your "fear" of strangers (who can really be quite nice if you have a reason to get to know them) and group up to master the content.  Same for those strangers, why should they want to help you, especially if they already did it and get nothing for doing so. (This is the key flaw with games based on quest based content btw, one that was not quite so severe in the earlier camp and grind game models)

Now, if the game mechanics had made it extremely rewarding for you to get past this content (and not be merely another notch on your quest log) and made it just as rewarding for anyone who chose to help you, then it is likely you would have gotten together.

if you had played a game like DAOC in the early days you would have experience this mechanic, where strangers routinely grouped togetther and even helped each other (single open world, no instances) when they got in trouble.  I suspect your MMO experience doesn't include a game like this because most people who don't understand what me and others aretalking about haven't either.

The game can be designed so that players are encouraged to group up in order to play nice together, but of course, that's just one road to success.  You appear to have decided that its better to let players chose to skip the group content by providing them an alternate path to the end.  Might be better, might not be, all depends on a players past experiences I suppose.

We'll have to see how it goes, you might be on to the next big thing or just another good idea that didn't work out as intended.

Oh well, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

 

 

Putting the condescending nature of your post to one side, first you should read Jatars' reply more closely. There are rewards for grouping and it is clear in his post more content and better rewards.

But what is important is that people have a choice... and a lot will group once they realise that they get better rewards. But in reality what is good about the COS approach is the choice and focus on Gameplay fun and storyline. People will likely form smaller groups which will be more community based....

I will elaborate on your DAOC theory, in the days when the player base was smaller and internet access was a lot more costly people used to play nice because generally you needed to have money to play online or rich parents. SO a core group of more intelligent players who were all acheivers in real life existed ,so playing nice was in their natur.

The flip coin of this is that access to the internet is so inexpensive now, it is a great form of entertainment for unemployed loosers who dont want to work and havent acheived and their idea of fun is to acheive in games by being idiots(These are the types you get forced to group with these days!!!).

It wasn't DAOC but the playerbase demographic that caused and resulted in grouping.

As for the assumption about "you must have never played these types of games, please read up a little on the developers of this games they are all very very experienced vets.

I hope you play COS for what it is and not what you think it should be when it releases sounds like a breath of fresh air giving people choice. WHile having a core storyline.

Originally posted by Isane

 

Putting the condescending nature of your post to one side, first you should read Jatars' reply more closely. There are rewards for grouping and it is clear in his post more content and better rewards.

But what is important is that people have a choice... and a lot will group once they realise that they get better rewards. But in reality what is good about the COS approach is the choice and focus on Gameplay fun and storyline. People will likely form smaller groups which will be more community based....

I will elaborate on your DAOC theory, in the days when the player base was smaller and internet access was a lot more costly people used to play nice because generally you needed to have money to play online or rich parents. SO a core group of more intelligent players who were all acheivers in real life existed ,so playing nice was in their natur.

The flip coin of this is that access to the internet is so inexpensive now, it is a great form of entertainment for unemployed loosers who dont want to work and havent acheived and their idea of fun is to acheive in games by being idiots(These are the types you get forced to group with these days!!!).

It wasn't DAOC but the playerbase demographic that caused and resulted in grouping.

As for the assumption about "you must have never played these types of games, please read up a little on the developers of this games they are all very very experienced vets.

I hope you play COS for what it is and not what you think it should be when it releases sounds like a breath of fresh air giving people choice. WHile having a core storyline.

Actually, I'm not sure COS's approach is  much different with regards to grouping than any other game of recent memory,  I can't recall a single game that forced me to group, I could always skip it and keep playing.  Sure, you can skip the group content, but that's true in WOW or most any game (maybe not FFXI)

I disagree with your assessment of DAOC, it wasn't the player base, the game's mechanics encouraged more socialization by strongly rewarding group play, making sure that most anyone could be an effective participant regardless of their skill at playing, and the forced downtime between fights gave players lots of time to chat. 

Today's players are just as capable of such interaction, if only a game would give them time to develop them.  Unfortunately they are all so busy "playing the game' to actually get to know one another and bond.

I used to run 8 mans on Mordred and we intentionally sat out 30 minutes or more waiting for our cool downs to come back up so we would be at maximum killing effectiveness.  Did a lot of socialization during those sessions, and made some really great friends that I still game with today.

And regardless what you think about the developers experience, I don't get any indication from Jatar's responses that he played DAOC and if he did, he didn't enjoy it because they are designing their game w/o any of the mechanics that I mentioned.

That's all well and good, and perhaps COS will be as unique as he says it is and that will make it fun.  I'll be glad to give it a chance, but asking me to set aside my preferences for game play is asking a bit much.

You are right, Kyleran.  We're not really trying to be different from all other games when it comes to grouping.  The truth is very simple, we just want players to have the choice.  There is content you will not see if you don't group, and things you will not experience if you don't group, however, there is NO content you MUST experience as a group in order to play through the game to the epic conclusion of the grand climax.  Everyone can experience that flow through the game, just in different ways depending on what they choose to do.  What we EXPECT most players to do is play a mix of solo and group, and this is NOT different than many other games.

Now, if any you complain to us that you won't be able to see all content unless you group, and therefore, this is forced grouping... we're going to laugh at you.   NO ONE is going to see all the content of CoS, no matter what they do.  Just like real life, you won't experience everything someone else does.  Your life is not their life, and so it goes in this game.  Each person's experience through this game will be unique in many ways.  And though you will certainly share some experiences that others do, overall, your life will be quite different.   This is the spice of life, especially in this game.  One of the main points of all this design and technology being put behind this game was to make it so that you didn't do exactly what the other players do.  The world changes, your life is different, time moves on, blaze your own path and enjoy your individuality.  Or... play some other game.  ;)

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Isane

 

Actually, I'm not sure COS's approach is  much different with regards to grouping than any other game of recent memory,  I can't recall a single game that forced me to group, I could always skip it and keep playing.  Sure, you can skip the group content, but that's true in WOW or most any game (maybe not FFXI)

I disagree with your assessment of DAOC, it wasn't the player base, the game's mechanics encouraged more socialization by strongly rewarding group play, making sure that most anyone could be an effective participant regardless of their skill at playing, and the forced downtime between fights gave players lots of time to chat. 

Today's players are just as capable of such interaction, if only a game would give them time to develop them.  Unfortunately they are all so busy "playing the game' to actually get to know one another and bond.

I used to run 8 mans on Mordred and we intentionally sat out 30 minutes or more waiting for our cool downs to come back up so we would be at maximum killing effectiveness.  Did a lot of socialization during those sessions, and made some really great friends that I still game with today.

And regardless what you think about the developers experience, I don't get any indication from Jatar's responses that he played DAOC and if he did, he didn't enjoy it because they are designing their game w/o any of the mechanics that I mentioned.

That's all well and good, and perhaps COS will be as unique as he says it is and that will make it fun.  I'll be glad to give it a chance, but asking me to set aside my preferences for game play is asking a bit much.

 

 

 

I made no comments about the Developers Experience someone else did !!!!!

I feel the developers are doing a great job here , I just dislike the spin... the game has some great ideas and the content and gameplay options sound great.

I never started the DAOC reference, but my ref to playerbase as now is a reference to the overall state of the MMO genre and the real reason it has changed is spot on. The player quality has been thinned to a point where people who like immersive games with real content are no longer the majority they used to be.

Originally posted by Kyleran

And regardless what you think about the developers experience, I don't get any indication from Jatar's responses that he played DAOC and if he did, he didn't enjoy it because they are designing their game w/o any of the mechanics that I mentioned.

That's all well and good, and perhaps COS will be as unique as he says it is and that will make it fun.  I'll be glad to give it a chance, but asking me to set aside my preferences for game play is asking a bit much.

 

As for my experience in the game industry, I've been in it a long time, and been to every E3 there has been, as both a developer and publisher.  In fact, I was watching DAOC from its earliest displays at the first E3 show where it was available to view.  I've also played the game, as I play ALL major examples of MMOs or RPGs as they come out.  That's part of my job, and also my enjoyment.

As for designing it without the mechanics you mentioned, Citadel of Sorcery has nothing to do with DAOC or any other MMO.  CoS is designed to be a different concept in MMO gaming from the ground up.  We aren't trying to be like any other MMO, including DAOC.  This is not a comment on those games, just a note that we are something different.  Just because one game has concepts in it that are good does not make that the only way to do something, or the only way that is fun to play.  We're just taking a different path.

Originally posted by Jatar

As for my experience in the game industry, I've been in it a long time, and been to every E3 there has been, as both a developer and publisher.  In fact, I was watching DAOC from its earliest displays at the first E3 show where it was available to view.  I've also played the game, as I play ALL major examples of MMOs or RPGs as they come out.  That's part of my job, and also my enjoyment.

Ok, now you've piqued my curiosity. You regularly say you work in the industry but you will never say, even when directly asked, who you are or what games you've worked on.

Why?

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Jatar

As for my experience in the game industry, I've been in it a long time, and been to every E3 there has been, as both a developer and publisher.  In fact, I was watching DAOC from its earliest displays at the first E3 show where it was available to view.  I've also played the game, as I play ALL major examples of MMOs or RPGs as they come out.  That's part of my job, and also my enjoyment.

 

Ok, now you've piqued my curiosity. You regularly say you work in the industry but you will never say, even when directly asked, who you are or what games you've worked on.

 

Why?

 

 

It was decided early on that we would keep our team anonymous to protect their privacy.   There is no need or advantage in posting our names on these forums, but there are disadvantages.  We don't need the distraction of personal attacks or people trying to email team members (or contact them in any way).  The names of the people who worked on this title will be included in the credits when the game releases.  

Originally posted by Jatar

Now, if any you complain to us that you won't be able to see all content unless you group, and therefore, this is forced grouping... we're going to laugh at you.  

Ah c'mon Jatar, I don't complain, I just offer my "input" on things. 

Or... play some other game.  ;)

oohh..., never dare potential customers to play other games, they might just do that....  and no telling what the butterfly effect (i.e. how many people can they convince to play or not play) of that might be.

In the end, sounds like the grouping mechanics are going to be pretty standard fare with most modern MMO's today.  (pretty much optional)

Of course, the game play is going to be quite a bit different according to you so as I mentioned, we'll just have to see how the finished game turns out.

Originally posted by Jatar

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Jatar

As for my experience in the game industry, I've been in it a long time, and been to every E3 there has been, as both a developer and publisher.  In fact, I was watching DAOC from its earliest displays at the first E3 show where it was available to view.  I've also played the game, as I play ALL major examples of MMOs or RPGs as they come out.  That's part of my job, and also my enjoyment.

 

Ok, now you've piqued my curiosity. You regularly say you work in the industry but you will never say, even when directly asked, who you are or what games you've worked on.

 

Why?

 

 

It was decided early on that we would keep our team anonymous to protect their privacy.   There is no need or advantage in posting our names on these forums, but there are disadvantages.  We don't need the distraction of personal attacks or people trying to email team members (or contact them in any way).  The names of the people who worked on this title will be included in the credits when the game releases.  

Richard, is that you? (or maybe its Brad)

I agree, not all games need to be the same, and in fact, I think we really need "something different" right now to shake up the genre.

Perhaps this will be "the one".

We'll see.

Well, I don't care if this 'is the one' or not, as long as its just fun to play.   As for grouping mechanics (back to the OP's original question)  I'm definitly of the camp that wants the game to give me the choice.  Now, this thread is a little old, so MMO Magic hadn't released the information that there are both community Reflected Worlds as well as private ones.  This suites me quite well, when I want to go on an adventure along (or with some buddies) I can jump into a world just for us and keep the pesky people away, but when I'm feeling 'guildish' and social (rare, I admit) I can go into a community Reflected world.  But in neither case do I want to be forced to group up with people in order to complete a quest.

Originally posted by Bookkeeper

Well, I don't care if this 'is the one' or not, as long as its just fun to play.   As for grouping mechanics (back to the OP's original question)  I'm definitly of the camp that wants the game to give me the choice.  Now, this thread is a little old, so MMO Magic hadn't released the information that there are both community Reflected Worlds as well as private ones.  This suites me quite well, when I want to go on an adventure along (or with some buddies) I can jump into a world just for us and keep the pesky people away, but when I'm feeling 'guildish' and social (rare, I admit) I can go into a community Reflected world.  But in neither case do I want to be forced to group up with people in order to complete a quest.

Well Jatar has explained in detail a few times no one will be forced but there will be limits as to what you can do solo and in a group .... Your choice.

But  Agree with you 100%. I just love the idea of a group of 8 conquering a reflected instance or our own realitie :)

This was a VERY good question by the op,because it is very important to the design of a game.

IMO you cannot have both,there is no way,if you try to have both it will mean there is no true grouping,but there might end up being some cheap form of xp bonus by grouping,either or the content will just be too easy in a group.

The op is without question 100% correct when he explains that MOST if not 90+% will just solo everything if it is possible,they will not care to group *EVEN* if they love grouping.I love grouping,i play FFXI,but if i can solo something,why woudl i waste time to form a group if i don't need it?Answer is i won't and most likely neither will anyone else.

Here is the problem now,you have a game that is played online with thousands of others,but you have no game mechanics to actually interact with others,so how is this going to be labeled a MMO then?You can't call a game an MMO just because thousands can connect to the same game,you have to actually have interaction,the game has to revolve around players working together,otherwise i can call EVERY single game that is online a MMO.

I could play Unrealtournament or COD or Quake and get more player interaction than i would if i played to solo a game full of quests.This imo would make these games more of a MMO than most of these other MMORPG's.There is no intrigue for myself,just because i can see another player run by me on screen,it is the interactio nthat brings a true mmo to life,making the online part useful.