Originally posted by Beartosser

Originally posted by CorvusCorax

Originally posted by Beartosser

Originally posted by CorvusCorax

Originally posted by Beartosser

The fact that devs still haven't designed an MMO for soloers is mind boggling. They're completely ignoring what is the largest segment of their potential customer base on a continual basis.

No solo MMO's, no solo servers within existing MMO's, zero useful endgame gear for solo players in existing MMO's, superior performance for groupers vs soloable mobs in existing MMO's, solo players completely or partially locked out of end game content in existing MMO's.

There's millions of potential customers out there who would play MMO's, but the devs have basically said "we don't want your business".

The real irony for the group/raid oriented players who constantly complain on boards like this about how their game has been dumbed down, is if they'd gotten behind the idea of seperate solo MMO's or servers long ago, they would have had a much more enjoyable experience playing MMO's now, because the games or servers they play on would have been tailored more specifically towards their needs, instead of the diversified mush they're being fed now. 

Might just be that the solo-only crowd is not big enough to warrant the massive funding needed to create a AAA MMO just for them. Could also be that MMO's are multiplayer games and soloing has nothing to do with multiplayer gameplay whatsoever. It is true that a lot of people who play MMO's spend a lot of that time soloing, but the amount of people who wants to do nothing else but soloing is most likely very small.

The thing I find the most mindboggling is that people who are looking for the perfect singleplayer game experience are looking for it in a genre based on multiplayer instead of going to the forums of the next big singleplayer game in the making and discuss such things over there.

Different servers is not a feasable sollution. Creating a AAA MMO requires an insane amount funds, creating both a AAA MMO and a AAA singleplayer game is just not a logical request. Resources are not infinite, the most probable thing to happen is a low quality game experience for everyone.

 

The raid oriented crowd is smaller in numbers than the soloers, yet they seem to think MMO's should only be designed to meet their needs, so why not the other way around.

Personally, I would prefer an MMO where everyone is included (GW2 was an admirable try at this), but if soloers keep running into a glass ceiling at every turn, maybe a little seperation is in order, to allow everyone an equal chance at progressing their characters to their fullest potential, and to experience all of the content.

Since allowing soloers to do this is vehemently opposed at every turn by raiders, then maybe seperate servers are in order. It's not like this would be an incredibly taxing endeavour for the devs, All they would have to do is increase the quality of the drops from existing quests/mobs, then block that server from participating in cross server activities like pvp and auction houses, and the raiders on the other servers wouldn't be affected in the slightest.

Do you have any sources to back up that claim?. Raiding is multiplayer gameplay, soloing is not. That is not only enough reason to design a MMORPG for raiding endgame but it is also simple logic. People who are raiding is not only raiding when they play, they solo, run dungeons, pvp, craft etc. If you want to solo that is fine, if you want a single player experience however then a single player game is the answer and not multiplayer games.

Different servers with super loot for basically everything you do?, that is pretty ridicolous, it wouldt make much sense to start with, it would also not solve your problem since they would also have to nerf every group/raid boss that has mechanics that could never be beaten by a single person no matter the gear. Its not  a logical sollution for a self created problem. You and anyone else with this mindset should visit the forums of some up and coming single player game and discuss over there about adding a multiplayer option with crafting, auction house, a chat channel and the option to group up for single player content. Instead of trying to turn MMORPG's into single player game with multiplayer tacked on to them.

The devs are well aware of the predominance of solo gameplay through their own internal studies, and the gameplaying public has been ever since the "Alone Together" study was released. The very nature of online gaming draws a high percentage of introverts, who naturally prefer solo gameplay. The devs have a hard time understanding (and therefore delivering content for) them because the devs are more predisposed towards extraversion, therefore they experience a natural disconnect with that personality type.

The second M in MMORPG stands for multiple, meaning many people playing at one time. That means all playstyles, not just raiding, otherwise they'd be called MRORPG's. I can understand how after being catered to hand and foot by the devs over the years, the raiders would think that to be so, but that is not the case.

As for different servers with super loot, didn't ask for that, just a valid means for soloers to progress their characters as far as anyone else. If raiders are so offended by the possibility of soloers being rewarded for their efforts in a fair and equitable manner, then maybe a little seperation is in order.

I asked if you had any actual sources to back up that claim, you still have not provided any. I am an introvert myself and I still enjoy multiplayer gameplay over soloing, so just because someone is an introvert does not automatically mean that they prefer soloing over everything else in a MMORPG. You do not speak for every introverted individual out there so dont use introverted people as an argument.

The second M in MMORPG has and always will stand for multiplayer, you can look it up if you want. There is also more forms of multiplayer gameplay than raiding, you have grouping, pvp, trading etc, the thing that they all have in common is that they all require other players to even exist while soloing does not. It is not a matter of being catered to, its a matter of multiplayer gameplay in a multiplayer game.

Seperation is not a logical sollution because developers have to make seperate changes to a seperate version of the original game just for a few soloers on their own seperated server. Ive said it before and I will say it again, go to the forums of a single player game and ask them to add online features, crafting and a auction house, basically the same way diablo 3 is. It requires far less resources because those features only has to be added once and the rest of the game is already designed for your type of gameplay.

Originally posted by CorvusCorax

Originally posted by Beartosser

Originally posted by CorvusCorax

Originally posted by Beartosser

Originally posted by CorvusCorax

Originally posted by Beartosser

The fact that devs still haven't designed an MMO for soloers is mind boggling. They're completely ignoring what is the largest segment of their potential customer base on a continual basis.

No solo MMO's, no solo servers within existing MMO's, zero useful endgame gear for solo players in existing MMO's, superior performance for groupers vs soloable mobs in existing MMO's, solo players completely or partially locked out of end game content in existing MMO's.

There's millions of potential customers out there who would play MMO's, but the devs have basically said "we don't want your business".

The real irony for the group/raid oriented players who constantly complain on boards like this about how their game has been dumbed down, is if they'd gotten behind the idea of seperate solo MMO's or servers long ago, they would have had a much more enjoyable experience playing MMO's now, because the games or servers they play on would have been tailored more specifically towards their needs, instead of the diversified mush they're being fed now. 

Might just be that the solo-only crowd is not big enough to warrant the massive funding needed to create a AAA MMO just for them. Could also be that MMO's are multiplayer games and soloing has nothing to do with multiplayer gameplay whatsoever. It is true that a lot of people who play MMO's spend a lot of that time soloing, but the amount of people who wants to do nothing else but soloing is most likely very small.

The thing I find the most mindboggling is that people who are looking for the perfect singleplayer game experience are looking for it in a genre based on multiplayer instead of going to the forums of the next big singleplayer game in the making and discuss such things over there.

Different servers is not a feasable sollution. Creating a AAA MMO requires an insane amount funds, creating both a AAA MMO and a AAA singleplayer game is just not a logical request. Resources are not infinite, the most probable thing to happen is a low quality game experience for everyone.

 

The raid oriented crowd is smaller in numbers than the soloers, yet they seem to think MMO's should only be designed to meet their needs, so why not the other way around.

Personally, I would prefer an MMO where everyone is included (GW2 was an admirable try at this), but if soloers keep running into a glass ceiling at every turn, maybe a little seperation is in order, to allow everyone an equal chance at progressing their characters to their fullest potential, and to experience all of the content.

Since allowing soloers to do this is vehemently opposed at every turn by raiders, then maybe seperate servers are in order. It's not like this would be an incredibly taxing endeavour for the devs, All they would have to do is increase the quality of the drops from existing quests/mobs, then block that server from participating in cross server activities like pvp and auction houses, and the raiders on the other servers wouldn't be affected in the slightest.

Do you have any sources to back up that claim?. Raiding is multiplayer gameplay, soloing is not. That is not only enough reason to design a MMORPG for raiding endgame but it is also simple logic. People who are raiding is not only raiding when they play, they solo, run dungeons, pvp, craft etc. If you want to solo that is fine, if you want a single player experience however then a single player game is the answer and not multiplayer games.

Different servers with super loot for basically everything you do?, that is pretty ridicolous, it wouldt make much sense to start with, it would also not solve your problem since they would also have to nerf every group/raid boss that has mechanics that could never be beaten by a single person no matter the gear. Its not  a logical sollution for a self created problem. You and anyone else with this mindset should visit the forums of some up and coming single player game and discuss over there about adding a multiplayer option with crafting, auction house, a chat channel and the option to group up for single player content. Instead of trying to turn MMORPG's into single player game with multiplayer tacked on to them.

The devs are well aware of the predominance of solo gameplay through their own internal studies, and the gameplaying public has been ever since the "Alone Together" study was released. The very nature of online gaming draws a high percentage of introverts, who naturally prefer solo gameplay. The devs have a hard time understanding (and therefore delivering content for) them because the devs are more predisposed towards extraversion, therefore they experience a natural disconnect with that personality type.

The second M in MMORPG stands for multiple, meaning many people playing at one time. That means all playstyles, not just raiding, otherwise they'd be called MRORPG's. I can understand how after being catered to hand and foot by the devs over the years, the raiders would think that to be so, but that is not the case.

As for different servers with super loot, didn't ask for that, just a valid means for soloers to progress their characters as far as anyone else. If raiders are so offended by the possibility of soloers being rewarded for their efforts in a fair and equitable manner, then maybe a little seperation is in order.

I asked if you had any actual sources to back up that claim, you still have not provided any. I am an introvert myself and I still enjoy multiplayer gameplay over soloing, so just because someone is an introvert does not automatically mean that they prefer soloing over everything else in a MMORPG. You do not speak for every introverted individual out there so dont use introverted people as an argument.

The second M in MMORPG has and always will stand for multiplayer, you can look it up if you want. There is also more forms of multiplayer gameplay than raiding, you have grouping, pvp, trading etc, the thing that they all have in common is that they all require other players to even exist while soloing does not. It is not a matter of being catered to, its a matter of multiplayer gameplay in a multiplayer game.

Seperation is not a logical sollution because developers have to make seperate changes to a seperate version of the original game just for a few soloers on their own seperated server. Ive said it before and I will say it again, go to the forums of a single player game and ask them to add online features, crafting and a auction house, basically the same way diablo 3 is. It requires far less resources because those features only has to be added once and the rest of the game is already designed for your type of gameplay.

Let's start at the very first study, which, after all these years, people who converse on this subject are still willfully ignorant of, for some reason.

http://www.nickyee.com/pubs/Ducheneaut,%20Yee,%20Nickell,%20Moore%20-%20Alone%20Together%20(2006).pdf

If you want more, Blizzard, EA, etc. have reams of compiled internal data which demonstrates the predominance of solo play in MMO's since their inception.

The second M in MMORPG does stand for multiplayer, as in multiples of players on one server at the same time. It has never meant those players should be forced, or coerced through predjudicial penalization of playstyle, into playing the game in a way that they don't want to. I understand that there are players out there whose arrogance leads them to believe that others should be forced to play the game their way, but they would be wrong.

Solo players have every bit as much right to play MMO's as raiders do, and their greater numbers only serves to drive home the point further, as commerce is an important factor in the gaming industry. Raiders suggesting solo players "go play an RPG" are simply demonstrating the type of anti social behaviour that they claim is the problem with soloers, and in the end just don't add anything of value to the conversation. 

Originally posted by Normandy7
Group play promotes socializing in games and creating community which most mmos sorely lack where as solo play doesn't promote anything useful to mmos. If I wanted to solo games I would stick to single player rpgs.

Forced grouping is not social. 

Originally posted by Ortwig

Originally posted by Normandy7
Group play promotes socializing in games and creating community which most mmos sorely lack where as solo play doesn't promote anything useful to mmos. If I wanted to solo games I would stick to single player rpgs.

Forced grouping is not social. 

Agreed. The people who state otherwise have never played a game with a true community. I pity them.

i like solo play a lot, but i also like group play. I tend to look for mature guilds to socialize but I think i have really bad luck finding guilds for group play because every guild i join claim to be mature and  they never talk to guildies, only a select group taht know each other talk to each other and all they talk is..... top gear, raids, real life issues (even if they say they are casual friendly).... i guess they think those are the mature topics ?.... oh well....  maybe i just keep soloing and avoid groups. Bad luck is bad luck lol

Originally posted by madazz

Originally posted by Ortwig

Originally posted by Normandy7
Group play promotes socializing in games and creating community which most mmos sorely lack where as solo play doesn't promote anything useful to mmos. If I wanted to solo games I would stick to single player rpgs.

Forced grouping is not social. 

Agreed. The people who state otherwise have never played a game with a true community. I pity them.

Nonsense. The less people need each other, the more a community suffers. The more solo a game, the less you need other people. It's common sense.

Originally posted by UsualSuspect

Originally posted by madazz

Originally posted by Ortwig

Originally posted by Normandy7
Group play promotes socializing in games and creating community which most mmos sorely lack where as solo play doesn't promote anything useful to mmos. If I wanted to solo games I would stick to single player rpgs.

Forced grouping is not social. 

Agreed. The people who state otherwise have never played a game with a true community. I pity them.

Nonsense. The less people need each other, the more a community suffers. The more solo a game, the less you need other people. It's common sense.

Needing people is not necessarily needed to build a community.  I have played several games where you don't need people at all and they were very friendly communities.  Istaria is one of them:  Very friendly, lot of chatter, lot of people willing to help if you want it but you can learn everything and do almost everything in the game by yourself.

So no the community does not suffer if people do not need each other. 

edit- common sense is usually just an individual perception of what they believe is real, and not anything based on reality.

Originally posted by Normandy7
Group play promotes socializing in games and creating community which most mmos sorely lack where as solo play doesn't promote anything useful to mmos. If I wanted to solo games I would stick to single player rpgs.

It produces fun, which is all that matters in any game.

Originally posted by UsualSuspect

Nonsense. The less people need each other, the more a community suffers. The more solo a game, the less you need other people. It's common sense.

The only way to have a true community is when people have common goals and common interests and that's just not what we see in modern MMOs.  Half the reason that communities worked in older MMOs is because the people who played them shared common interests outside of the MMO, they could talk about other things while they were playing.  Back in the day, I couldn't get into a group where everyone couldn't quote Monty Python and the Holy Grail verbatim.  That isn't the case today.  People in these games no longer share any common bonds, MMOs no longer represent a single community, they are dozens or hundreds of communities and it will never go back to the way it was.

Stop living in the past.  The kind of community game that used to exist is gone and will never come back.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by UsualSuspect

Originally posted by madazz

Originally posted by Ortwig

Originally posted by Normandy7
Group play promotes socializing in games and creating community which most mmos sorely lack where as solo play doesn't promote anything useful to mmos. If I wanted to solo games I would stick to single player rpgs.

Forced grouping is not social. 

Agreed. The people who state otherwise have never played a game with a true community. I pity them.

Nonsense. The less people need each other, the more a community suffers. The more solo a game, the less you need other people. It's common sense.

Needing people is not necessarily needed to build a community.  I have played several games where you don't need people at all and they were very friendly communities.  Istaria is one of them:  Very friendly, lot of chatter, lot of people willing to help if you want it but you can learn everything and do almost everything in the game by yourself.

So no the community does not suffer if people do not need each other. 

edit- common sense is usually just an individual perception of what they believe is real, and not anything based on reality.

Just watch the Landreau episode of the original Star Trek or any Borg episode, and you'll see how silly the argument is.  Grouping based on free and good will is what makes good communities.  Freedom to do things by yourself, freedom to group with friends.  Kinda like real life!  :)  If you find yourself saying "he is not one of us..." you'll know you've slipped over into the bad grouping, mob mentality.

There would be no need to discuss this if developers would actually use the idea that was brought to light 3 years ago at a GDC...scalable content.

I forgot the developers name, but he did a slideshow showing HOW to do it so ALL CONTENT scaled to the player and to the group...no matter the size of the group. The mobs not only scaled in terms of "HP" or "DPS output" but also in terms of loot dropped, skills it had to use but also tactics. It was a simple list attached to the mob that, once created, the developers of the game wouldnt have to go back to it and continue to touch it up over the development cycle.

This idea allows 100% of the game to not only remain viable to 100% of the players throughout 100% of their playing, it also remains viable to all player types. Solo, small group, medium group, raid, large raid.

The very idea that parts of the game should be created with a segment of the playerbase in mind is old and outdated. Its foolish all-around to do that today.

Originally posted by jtcgs

There would be no need to discuss this if developers would actually use the idea that was brought to light 3 years ago at a GDC...scalable content.

I forgot the developers name, but he did a slideshow showing HOW to do it so ALL CONTENT scaled to the player and to the group...no matter the size of the group. The mobs not only scaled in terms of "HP" or "DPS output" but also in terms of loot dropped, skills it had to use but also tactics. It was a simple list attached to the mob that, once created, the developers of the game wouldnt have to go back to it and continue to touch it up over the development cycle.

This idea allows 100% of the game to not only remain viable to 100% of the players throughout 100% of their playing, it also remains viable to all player types. Solo, small group, medium group, raid, large raid.

The very idea that parts of the game should be created with a segment of the playerbase in mind is old and outdated. Its foolish all-around to do that today.

Yet every time such is suggested, you get the pro-grouping  crowd screaming bloody murder.  They don't want scalable content, they want all content to be too hard for people to do solo under any circumstances so everyone is required, in order to play the game at all, to group up with others whether they want to or not.

Foolish yes, but hardly an uncommon sentiment.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by DiSpLiFF

 i'll say what i've said before, I personally think WoW did it best. Theres group play and solo play, but you won't get nearly as good quality gear just by soloing. I would never play a game that forced me to group 24/7, on the other hand i'd never play an mmo that was just solo play. Of course i'm a casual player (i guess? 2 hours a day) sometimes I don't have an hour to wait to join  a group i'll probably leave 40 mins into it. 

 

WoW did it in the worst possible way.

+1

Originally posted by Cephus404

Yet every time such is suggested, you get the pro-grouping  crowd screaming bloody murder.  They don't want scalable content, they want all content to be too hard for people to do solo under any circumstances so everyone is required, in order to play the game at all, to group up with others whether they want to or not.

Foolish yes, but hardly an uncommon sentiment.

When are you people going to realise that a game that allows you to solo everything will make grouping a rare activity? Unless you make grouping a requirement then grouping will not happen, pure and simple; look at recent themepark MMO's, where the quests can be done alone the whole way to max level. Look at how people approach them. I've said it before many times, people will do what's easiest for them, they'll solo for the same reason that they change a lightbulb on their own, it's the easiest and most natural way of approaching the situation.

And in response to the comment about 'grouping up with others whether they want to or not', the simple answer is don't play a multiplayer game if you're in that mood. If I don't want to team up and shoot other people I don't boot up Call of Duty, if I don't want to group with other people to fight trolls I don't play an MMO.

MMO's are multiplayer games, the word is in the title, why is everyone so set on making them a different style of single player game? We have enough of them in the world as it is, why can't we keep MMO's as team/group based mutliplayer games? Must everything become a solo experience?

Originally posted by UsualSuspect

MMO's are multiplayer games, the word is in the title, why is everyone so set on making them a different style of single player game? We have enough of them in the world as it is, why can't we keep MMO's as team/group based mutliplayer games? Must everything become a solo experience?

So, by your definition and wishes, all MMOs should be grouping only and if a person ever plays online they must group.  Think about that.  You would cause the demise of the majority of current MMOs.  What about the period when a game experiences a population drop?  Groups would be difficult to find thus the game would slowly die.

People have taken the name MMO and twisted it to their own preference.  Massive Multiplayer Online does not mean massive grouping online.  What it means simply is many people playing a game online.  Whether the game mechanics call for grouping or solo play should be up to the developers.   I personally enjoy soloing, don’t mind grouping (as long as it’s easy to do), and absolutely hate forced grouping.

I think the most successful games find a way to balance solo and grouping. 

Originally posted by UsualSuspect

When are you people going to realise that a game that allows you to solo everything will make grouping a rare activity? Unless you make grouping a requirement then grouping will not happen, pure and simple; look at recent themepark MMO's, where the quests can be done alone the whole way to max level. Look at how people approach them. I've said it before many times, people will do what's easiest for them, they'll solo for the same reason that they change a lightbulb on their own, it's the easiest and most natural way of approaching the situation.

And in response to the comment about 'grouping up with others whether they want to or not', the simple answer is don't play a multiplayer game if you're in that mood. If I don't want to team up and shoot other people I don't boot up Call of Duty, if I don't want to group with other people to fight trolls I don't play an MMO.

MMO's are multiplayer games, the word is in the title, why is everyone so set on making them a different style of single player game? We have enough of them in the world as it is, why can't we keep MMO's as team/group based mutliplayer games? Must everything become a solo experience?

Look, according to pro-groupers, people group because they want to.  Is that not true?  Is there some game mechanic that is going to stop a group of people from joining forces for the simple and pure pleasure of joining forces, just  because they can play the game alone?  If so, then you've got a pretty damn pathetic group of groupers.  Is this something they do because they want to do it or is it something they'll only do because they have to do it?

There are tons of things I do in games because I choose to do them, I'm not required to do them, I want to do them.

So what the hell is wrong with you groupers?

Originally posted by DeVoDeVo

 

So, by your definition and wishes, all MMOs should be grouping only and if a person ever plays online they must group.  Think about that.  You would cause the demise of the majority of current MMOs.  What about the period when a game experiences a population drop?  Groups would be difficult to find thus the game would slowly die.

People have taken the name MMO and twisted it to their own preference.  Massive Multiplayer Online does not mean massive grouping online.  What it means simply is many people playing a game online.  Whether the game mechanics call for grouping or solo play should be up to the developers.   I personally enjoy soloing, don’t mind grouping (as long as it’s easy to do), and absolutely hate forced grouping.

I think the most successful games find a way to balance solo and grouping. 

That's probably not far off, to be honest, and I think it would appeal to another group, for which there seems to be a lot of overlap to the pro-groupers.  They'd rather there only be a couple of MMOs out there so people couldn't just jump from game to game and would have to stick to a game for a long period of time because there are no other options.

It's all sad.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Look, according to pro-groupers, people group because they want to.  Is that not true?  Is there some game mechanic that is going to stop a group of people from joining forces for the simple and pure pleasure of joining forces, just  because they can play the game alone?

Originally posted by DeVoDeVo

So, by your definition and wishes, all MMOs should be grouping only and if a person ever plays online they must group.  Think about that.  You would cause the demise of the majority of current MMOs.  What about the period when a game experiences a population drop?  Groups would be difficult to find thus the game would slowly die.

Both come under the same answer. It's all in the game design. As it stands MMO's have moved to largely solo games where you can play alone all the way to max level before needing to group. That's not how it should be and if you think it is then you're clearly in the wrong genre. The game mechanic stopping people from joining forces is the ease of gameplay, MMO's have become so solo orientated that they really don't give any other option but to solo. Like I said earlier, you don't invite a friend around to change a lightbulb, just like you don't group to kill 10 boars who die in 2 hits. In the case of some MMO's, The Secret World pops into my head, they actively block you from staying together as a group by throwing solo instances into normal quests.

In the past you had MMO's such as EverQuest, where the pendulum had swung the other way, where grouping was the main way of progressing. If you were good, went to the right areas, and targeted the right mobs, you could solo there too, but it was never easy. And yet that game survived right up to today, where these solo based games barely survive a year or two. The majority of current MMO's are killing themselves by building themselves as single player games online, the longest running games have all had some form of grouping at the forefront of their design.