I disagree with quite a few posts here. By difinition, an MMO is a massively multiplayer online game, so basically it only needs 2 things to fall under the definition: to be online, and to be massively multiplayer (massive numbers of players playing at the same time). The definition in itself does not entail group or solo play as long as you have a very large number of players playing a certain game while interacting with one another, be it through chat, through trading, through grouping, through guilds and social interactions, through activities, and the list goes on. If you go on a quest alone, that doesn't make the game any less "MMO"-ey than if you joined a raid, because you will still be playing the game with massive numbers of players online and you could still interact with them if you choose through chat.

When you tell a person to "go play a single player game" you risk sounding silly. Some people enjoy the solo gameplay of certain games, which happen to be MMO. I don't think any of us has the right to dectate what other people should be enjoying.

Personally, I find the best system to be one where you have CHOICE. Forced content in either direction limits people to one playstyle. 

I find what Citadel of Sorcery is planning to do (who are by the way officially "coming out" on the 9th of this month) an excellent mix of both solo and group gaming where you don't get penalized for either. You can do your quests solo without being hindered, but if you bring a group with you, the quest gets more exciting and you are presented with more choices and strategies on how to solve a certain problem (for example, you could have a few create a diversion by spreading a rumer, while others free a prisoner and interrogate him while the rest stand guard). You have massive seiges, protecting whole towns, and raid-like stuff for massive numbers of players. This way, those who enjoy solo play can co-exist with those who like small groups and those who like massive group events. I don't see why a game should push the envelope in either direction for a game to  be called a good MMO.

The problem here is probably that we are arguing what's the best approach to an issue that hasn't got one. As it's been said, MMO doesn't imply anything apart from the presence of other people around, and that allows for a virtually infinite set of posibilities in what refers to interaction between them.

However, it's not necessary to find one middleground that suits all, as no matter what you do with your game you are going to sacrifice something that some players will miss. The correct question to ask is not "How should all MMOs balance solo and grouping?", but "What is the balance we individually enjoy the most and why?".

Personally, I like difficulty in games to a point where both developing my skill and grouping with other players becomes almost mandatory to progress. I find that really fun as well as community-building, and keeps me interested in a game for more time (the multiplayer game I've played for a longer period might have been Neverwinter Nights, in a couple of roleplayng persistent worlds, and I guess I have some longing for that kind of experience). Still, I wouldn't dare to state that this is the way every MMO should be; in today's society where videogames are so mainstream there's room for everything.

The best way to design an MMORPG? Ignore 98% of the idiots in this thread, make a game with forced grouping, be sure that it's top quality and release it. This is what Vanguard should have been. Your audience will find you.

Sure, there'll be 'room for soloing'--for a few classes. But you will have 10 minutes of downtime after every kill, and level 10x slower than a group.

Most important thing is not to waste money on shit like voice acting and unnecessary graphics. Graphics like EQ2 and FF XI are more than enough.

The majority are seldom right about anything. The majority do what the majority do, and that is what they do that is right. If they didn't then the world would be in chaos. It's just up to a small few to do the right thing, in cases where it can and needs to be done, like MMORPGs.

I find it funny that we are even having such a thread.

Imo a good MMO will simply have both...and the players will choose how they want to play Grouped or Solo every time they log on.

The core issue is that their should not be a need to define solo or group play.

A true mmo should have content so dynamic that you enter a region one day and it is easy to traverse and another day where enemies have taking it over for their own ends and suddently you cannot hope to be there alone. 

The world should be alive and never easily measured. Nearly every player today bases entire gameplay on the knowledge they know exactly what they are getting into. Even so called hardcore gamers be it pvp or pve base everything off this knowledge. If something is too many levels above them they don't even consider attacking. In pvp even the most epeen ganker won't attack someone they know they have no chance to kill. They base their entire gameplay on the knowledge they have the upper hand or a reasonable chance to succeed. 

True hardcore gaming should be about not knowing what you can face until you try it. True virtual world gaming should not provide so many easy tools. Solo and group play should not be defined into calculated leveling paths. Solo play should require a great deal of exploration and timing/luck within a dynamic virual world. It shouldn't be a right.

Maybe I'm just asking for too much but I want a game where I can do both.  And I don't mean my soloing relegated to crafting, or standing around in cities trying to sync my /dance.  I want to be able to go out into the world and fly solo for a bit if I want to.  Obviously, this would (and should) keep me from doing certain things while I'm soloing.  For instance, taking on hard bosses, or running dungeons.

But I also want the ability to do those things I can solo in a group setting as well, if I want to do that.  That means scaling monsters so they are harder to kill when a group of people is fighting them.

So, yes, I want my cake and want to eat it too.  Considering the amount of money we pay for this form of entertainment, I don't think it's too much to ask.

You should be able to get everything solo you can get with a group, whether it takes more time, effort, whatever. I have no problem spending 6 months getting an item it took a raid 45 minutes to get. Just give me the option. Especially if developers keep releasing shitty single player RPG's as MMOs. (SWTOR, I'm looking at you).

I used to think grouping was key in an MMO, but now I feel like companies should pay ME for dealing with half the people in their games. Thus I spend my time solo in most games I play these days.

The exception to this is guildies. Will always group up with some guildies :D

Originally posted by Aeonblades

I used to think grouping was key in an MMO, but now I feel like companies should pay ME for dealing with half the people in their games. Thus I spend my time solo in most games I play these days.

Same here, most of the reason I solo is because I don't want to deal with 99.99999% of the idiots that play these games.  Maybe because I'm older than the average age of players, but I only want to play with mature adults who don't spend their time talking about big tits and making fart jokes.  I don't want to be around people who can't spell and are racing to end-game.

That pretty much means I solo because there are very, very few people in a game that fit my criteria.

Originally posted by Adamai
Its an mmo. Absolutely no solo play because you solo guys are a game breaking feature.

Ive said this before, but Ill say it again. Not everyone plays MMOs for the same reason. You might play for required grouping, but there are several reasons out there to play that have absolutely nothing to do with grouping or lack of it:

- Personally, I mainly play for PvP. Testing myself vs other human players rather than NPCs. Only MMOs and other types of online games offer this.

Other reasons people might play that require no grouping whatsoever:

- The ability to chat and socialize with people from all over the world while playing a game they enjoy.

- Economics and markets. Some people enjoy these aspects of games and playing the markets to maximize their profits.

- Playing in a persistant and ever changing world with new content and experiences added regularly. Something single player games generally dont offer

- The ability to have an impact on other people, or be impacted by them in various forms

- Attempting to become well known for something such as a great PvPer, great crafter, very knowledgable person, etc

- In the case of sandboxes especially, being able to show off your work to the world. Thinkof games like Xsyon, Wurm, etc where you can build all kinds of cool stuff, do terraforming, etc and other players can come and admire the things you have built

Both styles of play are useful, it all depends on what class you are playing and how you like to play. I find that when you start a new char. or if you are a newbie, playing in a group is easier and lets you get used to how to play. The class you are playing makes a big difference too. If your playing a mage,priest or shaman you will find it difficult to solo untill you have reached a high enough level.

Oh well, to each their own.

Originally posted by kaiser3282

Originally posted by Adamai
Its an mmo. Absolutely no solo play because you solo guys are a game breaking feature.

Ive said this before, but Ill say it again. Not everyone plays MMOs for the same reason. You might play for required grouping, but there are several reasons out there to play that have absolutely nothing to do with grouping or lack of it:

- Personally, I mainly play for PvP. Testing myself vs other human players rather than NPCs. Only MMOs and other types of online games offer this.

Other reasons people might play that require no grouping whatsoever:

- The ability to chat and socialize with people from all over the world while playing a game they enjoy.

- Economics and markets. Some people enjoy these aspects of games and playing the markets to maximize their profits.

- Playing in a persistant and ever changing world with new content and experiences added regularly. Something single player games generally dont offer

- The ability to have an impact on other people, or be impacted by them in various forms

- Attempting to become well known for something such as a great PvPer, great crafter, very knowledgable person, etc

- In the case of sandboxes especially, being able to show off your work to the world. Thinkof games like Xsyon, Wurm, etc where you can build all kinds of cool stuff, do terraforming, etc and other players can come and admire the things you have built

Or, for most casual players, just to have fun while engaged in an activity that exists to waste free time.  That's all a game is, after all, it's a time-waster.

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How I feel about this issue is the only right way to see it, no compromise should be attempted. MMO's should cater exlusively to my playstyle, everyone else is an idiot.

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My mommy says I can play grown up games if I want. Even if big boys are ganking lots of innocent little kids, she says it's good for me to see the crueler side of ugly. When I get a bit older, I plan to be a rugby all-star, and I wont hold back on anyone. If you are in my way, I will scrum your little white arse like a brick truck barreling out of control or a two thousand ton passenger train traveling at mach one. I don't care about whether it is solo or party...I wont be denied! I will own your posterior, and will not hesitate on pleasure myself with it.

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Its an mmo. Absolutely no solo play because you solo guys are a game breaking feature.

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When I played Guild war, I always played sololy and soon I gave it up. Later I played WOW, I leveled sololy but I can did instance running frequently. So I think the best game is: You can play in the style you want. If you want solo, then no one will disturb you; If you want to join group, you can easily find a group.

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Ask that from the developers, not me.If you design the game in a specific way, you step on one playstyle's shoes while catering to the other. I wish it wasn't like that, but what can I do.

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When alot of people choose a certain gamestyle, it is true that they indirectly move the genre in a specific way, and developers try to follow it, but to blame the people that choose whats fun for them for your lack of fun is ridiculous. Blame developers for not making enough niche games, but dont blame the players for choosing how to spend their time.

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But when game's don't support any other playstyle than his, only he gets to pick his own playstyle.

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Originally posted by kalisti
I think people should play how they like. But MMOs are skewed towards group play, and people like me who like to play solo a lot just need to accept that and move on. ;)

But they're not, most MMOs are skewed toward solo play because that's the majority of people who play these games.  MMO developers make the vast majority of their money from people who want to play solo.  It's the groupers who sit around and whine incessantly how unfair it is that developers don't cater to a minority gameplay position.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by kalisti
I think people should play how they like. But MMOs are skewed towards group play, and people like me who like to play solo a lot just need to accept that and move on. ;)

But they're not, most MMOs are skewed toward solo play because that's the majority of people who play these games.  MMO developers make the vast majority of their money from people who want to play solo.  It's the groupers who sit around and whine incessantly how unfair it is that developers don't cater to a minority gameplay position.

 Are they skewed that way though?  In every MMO I've played groupers were significantly rewarded.  Better coin, xp, loot from group play.  There is usually significantly more variety in group play than solo play.  Look at WoW for groups there are dungeons, raids, arena's, bg's.  For solo there is questing and crafting.

I would say games are more skewed towards group play.  I'm fine with that but please at least keep the questing for when we want to solo.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 Are they skewed that way though?  In every MMO I've played groupers were significantly rewarded.  Better coin, xp, loot from group play.  There is usually significantly more variety in group play than solo play.  Look at WoW for groups there are dungeons, raids, arena's, bg's.  For solo there is questing and crafting.

I would say games are more skewed towards group play.  I'm fine with that but please at least keep the questing for when we want to solo.

Tell that to all the grouping whiners who are convinced that soloing ruined MMOs.  In fact, it only makes sense that grouping would inherently  give you better reward, you're working with more people, more people means more firepower, that means the ability to take on bigger prey, thus more XP and more loot.  In the absence of scalable mobs, a mob that has X hit points and is built to be a challenge for one person, suddenly is no challenge at all for a group that can throw 5x the DPS at it.

Most of the things you list for groups is end-game content.  Most soloers are during-game players.

For me, inquiring about which is best..."group" or "solo"...is not the right question to ask. A better question is "What is the best way to balance a game for both types of players?" My problem with games like these have always been the constant nerfing and equalization of characters...resulting in boring classes that feel weak and unconvincing. Of course a DD player should more often win in a dual...why belabor the fact? As a result, in the end (in PvP heavy games) skills feel somewhat miserly and watered-down to the point of absolute ineffectuality. As such, PvP demands this equalization so that everyone has a roughly equivalent chance at winning (in our world of ubiquitous democracy and equality)...when a battle is being waged one on one. However, in group play, such a battle dynamic suffers because job classes tend to loose their polish and speciality...which is desperately needed for effective grouping. In other words, DD becomes relatively weak, and ranged attackers loose their attraction; and I am not even going to mention healers in most of these PvP heavy games... quite insipid! In any event, it's all about balance and specialization anyway...and how these are dealt with relative to one another...and if a videogame developer does it right, there should be absolutely no complaints from anybody. This, in a nutshell, is my answer to your question: "Both, yet neither."

Originally posted by kalisti
I think people should play how they like. But MMOs are skewed towards group play, and people like me who like to play solo a lot just need to accept that and move on. ;)

Play a single-player game then. MMOs, by definition, are meant to be games to be played with other human controled characters.