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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The 'Group Play vs Solo Play in an MMO' Thread

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  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3677

6/21/12 1:57:42 AM#1481
Originally posted by UsualSuspect

And what soloers are arguing is, "I want to be able to solo everything.". Just look up at Cephus404's post, he's saying he should have access to, and be able to complete, raids on his own, not with 30 other people. The thing pro-groupers are arguing about is the fact that if everything is soloable then it removes the need for groups. If content is soloable then by definition it's going to be simple to four or five people grouped up. So simple it's not even worth grouping for.

Ah, see, that's where you're wrong.  It removes the *NEED* for groups, but not the *DESIRE* for groups.  People don't have to group.  They should do it because they WANT TO!

If you can't find enough people who are willing to group, that's your problem.  Apparently, your chosen playstyle is even less popular than we think if that's the case.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3064

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

6/21/12 2:26:22 AM#1482


Originally posted by UsualSuspect

Originally posted by AlBQuirky What this argument boils down to is: "I want everyone forced to group with me." That changes things. There is not a MMO made today that does not allow people to group. Not one.
And what soloers are arguing is, "I want to be able to solo everything.". Just look up at Cephus404's post, he's saying he should have access to, and be able to complete, raids on his own, not with 30 other people. The thing pro-groupers are arguing about is the fact that if everything is soloable then it removes the need for groups. If content is soloable then by definition it's going to be simple to four or five people grouped up. So simple it's not even worth grouping for.

Some are saying that scalable content fixes this, but there's only been one game I can think of that got scalable content right and that's DDO. 99% of MMO's are created with set locations and set mobs that are just sitting around waiting to be killed. If a soloer can kill those mobs in a few seconds then there's no incentive, no reason, no point whatsoever in creating a group to tackle that same content.

Pro-soloers say that if we wanted to group then we would regardless of the difficulty of content, and that's naive at best. People don't group up for something they can do alone. You don't invite 3 friends around to help you change a lightbulb, or hire six people to help you make a slice of toast. Same principle. If it's so easy you can do it alone your natural instinct is to do it alone. That's what people don't seem to understand. The option might be there but it's comical to think that the option would be taken for such simple tasks.



I may invite friends over to change a lightbulb. Order some pizza, have some beer and maybe watch a DVD or play a boardgame afterwards.

In WoW, I have been in groups for collect x quests! No need to, but it was more fun then soloing at the time. At the same time, I don't need to group to have fun. Sometimes, I feel anti-social. I just want to log in, kill stuff, and move on. Other times, I just get caught up in chain quests and forget the rest of the gaming world.

I guess I am missing the point of why people desire to group up together. From what I am reading, it sounds like people want forced grouping, just so people who like to group can, not because they enjoy the social aspects of said group. People who like the social aspects don't seem to have a problem finding groups to play with.

Now, I am NOT against games that have forced grouping. I just don't enjoy them. I don't want my online time dictated by waiting for others to play with.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  UsualSuspect

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/01/04
Posts: 1219

6/21/12 5:08:02 AM#1483
Originally posted by Cephus404

Ah, see, that's where you're wrong.  It removes the *NEED* for groups, but not the *DESIRE* for groups.  People don't have to group.  They should do it because they WANT TO!

If you can't find enough people who are willing to group, that's your problem.  Apparently, your chosen playstyle is even less popular than we think if that's the case.

 

This ideal you have that people will just come together through some instinctive mutual interest is really bizarre. People don't and won't without reason. How many strangers do you start hanging out with in your everyday life? Ever walk down the street and strike up conversation with the person you're walking next to? I highly doubt it.

Without a need to socialise or group, people won't do it, especially if what they need to do can be done on their own. That's the point of multiplayer games, to bring people together and have them work against or with each other. How many people have stories of meeting people in MMOs from across the globe after spending the night grouped in a dungeon? How many people say the same after soloing the same place?

A multiplayer game needs multiplayer content, not some romantic ideal of people coming together out of a desire to meet new people. There are chat rooms for that sort of thing, most offering other desires that can be fulfilled.
  Ikonoclastia

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/31/11
Posts: 180

6/21/12 5:25:58 AM#1484
Originally posted by UsualSuspect
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

What this argument boils down to is:
"I want everyone forced to group with me."

That changes things. There is not a MMO made today that does not allow people to group. Not one.

And what soloers are arguing is, "I want to be able to solo everything.". Just look up at Cephus404's post, he's saying he should have access to, and be able to complete, raids on his own, not with 30 other people. The thing pro-groupers are arguing about is the fact that if everything is soloable then it removes the need for groups. If content is soloable then by definition it's going to be simple to four or five people grouped up. So simple it's not even worth grouping for.

Some are saying that scalable content fixes this, but there's only been one game I can think of that got scalable content right and that's DDO. 99% of MMO's are created with set locations and set mobs that are just sitting around waiting to be killed. If a soloer can kill those mobs in a few seconds then there's no incentive, no reason, no point whatsoever in creating a group to tackle that same content.

Pro-soloers say that if we wanted to group then we would regardless of the difficulty of content, and that's naive at best. People don't group up for something they can do alone. You don't invite 3 friends around to help you change a lightbulb, or hire six people to help you make a slice of toast. Same principle. If it's so easy you can do it alone your natural instinct is to do it alone. That's what people don't seem to understand. The option might be there but it's comical to think that the option would be taken for such simple tasks.

He should be able to do raids himself, why not?  Even more so if its in an instance.  Who cares if he does?  As long as its balanced it doesn't matter (example: if it takes 1 person 10 hours, perhaps it only takes 10 people 1 hour, making it possible for 10 people to run it 10 times in the same time it takes to run it 1 time with 1 person)

Soloable content does not necessarily mean trivial content for groups. In fact its not even necessary for them to run the same content at all.

We're not talking about current MMO's, nor are we talking about the 99% figure you pulled out of thin air.  We are talking about a theorectical game which doesn't include your disincentives.  And we can choose to ignore the possibility of a complete lack of creativity and innovation which you seem to want to include in your idea of MMO production, so that we can create something that satisfies both camps.

If a game is created properly there should be no necessity to enforce grouping.  The game itself will provide the playing field, the content will provide the goal posts, the ball and the rules and the players will team up because its a fun game to play together. If players are running off by themselves when they would rather group then thats not a failure of the players its a failure of the game.  If they are running off by themselves because they would rather not group than thats what they should be allowed to do.

Edit: 

To answer the above question, yes, people will naturally group up simply for the sake of conversation.  There are underlying reasons of security, reproduction, profit involved in the psychology behind it but people like to group together.  Its a poor game that sociable players, given the option to gain equal or greater profit, won't choose to group.  Game problem, not player problem.

  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

6/21/12 8:33:20 AM#1485
Originally posted by Ikonoclastia
Originally posted by UsualSuspect
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

What this argument boils down to is:
"I want everyone forced to group with me."

That changes things. There is not a MMO made today that does not allow people to group. Not one.

And what soloers are arguing is, "I want to be able to solo everything.". Just look up at Cephus404's post, he's saying he should have access to, and be able to complete, raids on his own, not with 30 other people. The thing pro-groupers are arguing about is the fact that if everything is soloable then it removes the need for groups. If content is soloable then by definition it's going to be simple to four or five people grouped up. So simple it's not even worth grouping for.

Some are saying that scalable content fixes this, but there's only been one game I can think of that got scalable content right and that's DDO. 99% of MMO's are created with set locations and set mobs that are just sitting around waiting to be killed. If a soloer can kill those mobs in a few seconds then there's no incentive, no reason, no point whatsoever in creating a group to tackle that same content.

Pro-soloers say that if we wanted to group then we would regardless of the difficulty of content, and that's naive at best. People don't group up for something they can do alone. You don't invite 3 friends around to help you change a lightbulb, or hire six people to help you make a slice of toast. Same principle. If it's so easy you can do it alone your natural instinct is to do it alone. That's what people don't seem to understand. The option might be there but it's comical to think that the option would be taken for such simple tasks.

He should be able to do raids himself, why not?  Even more so if its in an instance.  Who cares if he does?  As long as its balanced it doesn't matter (example: if it takes 1 person 10 hours, perhaps it only takes 10 people 1 hour, making it possible for 10 people to run it 10 times in the same time it takes to run it 1 time with 1 person)

Soloable content does not necessarily mean trivial content for groups. In fact its not even necessary for them to run the same content at all.

We're not talking about current MMO's, nor are we talking about the 99% figure you pulled out of thin air.  We are talking about a theorectical game which doesn't include your disincentives.  And we can choose to ignore the possibility of a complete lack of creativity and innovation which you seem to want to include in your idea of MMO production, so that we can create something that satisfies both camps.

If a game is created properly there should be no necessity to enforce grouping.  The game itself will provide the playing field, the content will provide the goal posts, the ball and the rules and the players will team up because its a fun game to play together. If players are running off by themselves when they would rather group then thats not a failure of the players its a failure of the game.  If they are running off by themselves because they would rather not group than thats what they should be allowed to do.

Edit: 

To answer the above question, yes, people will naturally group up simply for the sake of conversation.  There are underlying reasons of security, reproduction, profit involved in the psychology behind it but people like to group together.  Its a poor game that sociable players, given the option to gain equal or greater profit, won't choose to group.  Game problem, not player problem.

 

Yes, solo content is definitly trivial for groups, for very obvious reasons, the content is built for ONE person. I thought everyone knew that..lol

And your wrong again about players naturaly grouping up for .... conversation? That is obsurd, and what online game allows for reproduction?  LOL!!!

Bottom line is simple, your way is less content, our way is more content. There is NO denying that.

  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

6/21/12 11:17:51 AM#1486
Originally posted by Ikonoclastia
Originally posted by Adalwulff
Originally posted by Ikonoclastia

He should be able to do raids himself, why not?  Even more so if its in an instance.  Who cares if he does?  As long as its balanced it doesn't matter (example: if it takes 1 person 10 hours, perhaps it only takes 10 people 1 hour, making it possible for 10 people to run it 10 times in the same time it takes to run it 1 time with 1 person)

Soloable content does not necessarily mean trivial content for groups. In fact its not even necessary for them to run the same content at all.

We're not talking about current MMO's, nor are we talking about the 99% figure you pulled out of thin air.  We are talking about a theorectical game which doesn't include your disincentives.  And we can choose to ignore the possibility of a complete lack of creativity and innovation which you seem to want to include in your idea of MMO production, so that we can create something that satisfies both camps.

If a game is created properly there should be no necessity to enforce grouping.  The game itself will provide the playing field, the content will provide the goal posts, the ball and the rules and the players will team up because its a fun game to play together. If players are running off by themselves when they would rather group then thats not a failure of the players its a failure of the game.  If they are running off by themselves because they would rather not group than thats what they should be allowed to do.

Edit: 

To answer the above question, yes, people will naturally group up simply for the sake of conversation.  There are underlying reasons of security, reproduction, profit involved in the psychology behind it but people like to group together.  Its a poor game that sociable players, given the option to gain equal or greater profit, won't choose to group.  Game problem, not player problem.

 

Yes, solo content is definitly trivial for groups, for very obvious reasons, the content is built for ONE person. I thought everyone knew that..lol

And your wrong again about players naturaly grouping up for .... conversation? That is obsurd, and what online game allows for reproduction?  LOL!!!

Bottom line is simple, your way is less content, our way is more content. There is NO denying that.

[mod edit]

[mod edit] When you add options, you add content. Now your trying to tell us that dungeons can be solo content or group content, depending on your gear. That is some baffling logic!

Everyone knows that "humans", as you put it...lol, will follow the path of least resistence. I have never heard of players grouping up, only to gimp themselves, all because they wish to chat. Most players do that in the general chat channels.

Your analogies are ridiculous, and your logic is full of straw.

  Amana

MMORPG.COM Staff

Joined: 1/03/11
Posts: 2360

6/21/12 12:16:50 PM#1487

Removing some personal attacks from the thread. If you guys want to keep discussing the topic at hand, be advised to do so without personal attacks. This is not the first warning, so stepped up action may be necessary if it continues.

To give feedback on moderation, contact community@mmorpg.com

  UsualSuspect

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/01/04
Posts: 1219

6/21/12 12:24:00 PM#1488
Originally posted by Ikonoclastia

He should be able to do raids himself, why not?  Even more so if its in an instance.  Who cares if he does?  As long as its balanced it doesn't matter (example: if it takes 1 person 10 hours, perhaps it only takes 10 people 1 hour, making it possible for 10 people to run it 10 times in the same time it takes to run it 1 time with 1 person)

Where is the appeal in that? Personally, I'd like my games to last longer, I played EverQuest for years, where is the appeal of cutting down the play time by up to 10 times for people who prefer to group? Are you trying to take away our enjoyment even further or something?

Soloable content does not necessarily mean trivial content for groups. In fact its not even necessary for them to run the same content at all.

Soloable content is always going to be trivial for groups, to say otherwise is just nonsense. If one person can kill X mob without dying, how hard is that going to be for 6 people attacking the same mob? Your second sentence, however, is what we've been arguing for all along. Pro-groupers want group content, it's just soloers seem to have a hard time accepting the fact that groupers might be able to do something they can't do alone. People like Cephus404 want all content available to everyone, or rather, all content available to soloers, because it's only soloers who are blocked by refusing to group up.

We're not talking about current MMO's, nor are we talking about the 99% figure you pulled out of thin air.  We are talking about a theorectical game which doesn't include your disincentives.  And we can choose to ignore the possibility of a complete lack of creativity and innovation which you seem to want to include in your idea of MMO production, so that we can create something that satisfies both camps.

How can you satisfy both camps? You put all group content in and soloers can't play, you put all solo content in and groupers can't do their thing, you put a bit of both in and the soloers STILL whine because they can't play the group content. See our problem? Soloers want everything, groupers are happy sharing content - hence the fact we want to play with other people. That's where soloers get their reputation of being selfish people.

If a game is created properly there should be no necessity to enforce grouping.  The game itself will provide the playing field, the content will provide the goal posts, the ball and the rules and the players will team up because its a fun game to play together. If players are running off by themselves when they would rather group then thats not a failure of the players its a failure of the game.  If they are running off by themselves because they would rather not group than thats what they should be allowed to do.

I do agree about your comment regarding the game being a failure not the players. That's the thing with current MMO's, they're all geared toward solo play with a rather basic end game of daily or weekly raids and some PvP. Those games, to me, are just complete failures. I don't play any of them, I gave SW:TOR a try because I was hoping for better from a multi-million dollar investment with Bioware at the figurehead. But no, complete failure. If designers would stop trying to make single player games online perhaps this genre could get back on track and become the pinnacle of gaming I imagined it might have become.

 

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18985

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

6/21/12 12:24:43 PM#1489
Originally posted by Amana

Removing some personal attacks from the thread. If you guys want to keep discussing the topic at hand, be advised to do so without personal attacks. This is not the first warning, so stepped up action may be necessary if it continues.

When you corner dogs into small pens naturally more fights are going to break out.  

Should dispense with these "gang content" threads and let us talk about them in multiple,  reasonable sized discussion threads (any thread over 10 pages should be closed/started again IMO

Just one man's opinion.

Whoops, better stay on topic.... Grouping is best, YEA!

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3677

6/21/12 2:05:42 PM#1490
Originally posted by UsualSuspect

 

This ideal you have that people will just come together through some instinctive mutual interest is really bizarre. People don't and won't without reason. How many strangers do you start hanging out with in your everyday life? Ever walk down the street and strike up conversation with the person you're walking next to? I highly doubt it.

Without a need to socialise or group, people won't do it, especially if what they need to do can be done on their own. That's the point of multiplayer games, to bring people together and have them work against or with each other. How many people have stories of meeting people in MMOs from across the globe after spending the night grouped in a dungeon? How many people say the same after soloing the same place?

A multiplayer game needs multiplayer content, not some romantic ideal of people coming together out of a desire to meet new people. There are chat rooms for that sort of thing, most offering other desires that can be fulfilled.

What kind of bizarro world do you live in where people will only do things they claim to enjoy doing if they get bribed to do it?  Do you only take part in your other hobbies because someone pays you to do it?  Of course not, that's stupid!

The problem is, you're claiming that people want to group but they won't group unless you slip them some reward for doing something they supposedly already want to do!  Looks to me like people don't really want to group.

You keep claiming that the "point" of the games is to group, yet you've never once produced a shred of evidence that this is true.  It's like claiming that the "point" of eating ice cream is to have mint chocolate chip.  That's ludicrous.  These are games.  The point of games is to play them.  You can play the game however you like, with whatever group of people you can find that wants to play the game the same way you do.  If you can't find those people, that's your problem.  The idea that if you can't find people to play with, you ought to be able to bribe them or force them to play your way is absurd.

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  UsualSuspect

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/01/04
Posts: 1219

6/21/12 3:58:38 PM#1491
Originally posted by Cephus404

What kind of bizarro world do you live in where people will only do things they claim to enjoy doing if they get bribed to do it?  Do you only take part in your other hobbies because someone pays you to do it?  Of course not, that's stupid!

The problem is, you're claiming that people want to group but they won't group unless you slip them some reward for doing something they supposedly already want to do!  Looks to me like people don't really want to group.

You keep claiming that the "point" of the games is to group, yet you've never once produced a shred of evidence that this is true.  It's like claiming that the "point" of eating ice cream is to have mint chocolate chip.  That's ludicrous.  These are games.  The point of games is to play them.  You can play the game however you like, with whatever group of people you can find that wants to play the game the same way you do.  If you can't find those people, that's your problem.  The idea that if you can't find people to play with, you ought to be able to bribe them or force them to play your way is absurd.

I started typing a reply to this about three times, but eventually gave up when I realised I'm just repeating what I've said before. I think at this point you're just trolling, you're not listening to peoples comments and you're just rehashing the same thing over and over. I can keep telling you my position on this but I don't really see the point anymore. You have your opinion and you're not listening to anyone elses or even trying to understand, so I think we'll call it a day there.

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3677

6/21/12 5:23:00 PM#1492
Originally posted by UsualSuspect

I started typing a reply to this about three times, but eventually gave up when I realised I'm just repeating what I've said before. I think at this point you're just trolling, you're not listening to peoples comments and you're just rehashing the same thing over and over. I can keep telling you my position on this but I don't really see the point anymore. You have your opinion and you're not listening to anyone elses or even trying to understand, so I think we'll call it a day there.

Because you're not saying anything that makes any logical sense.  You're saying that people who enjoy grouping are not grouping because they'd rather solo.  That makes no sense.  You either like grouping or you do not.  You either choose to group or do you do not.  People who voluntarily solo when they could be grouping are not groupers, no matter what you seem to think they are.

I don't get why you seem to think that groupers need to get separate rewards for grouping when grouping, in and of itself, is it's own reward!  It's like playing tennis.  You can hit a ball against a wall all you want.  If someone else shows up and you start to play a game, should someone give you a reward for playing with someone else?  Or is playing with someone else, just because you enjoy playing with someone else, a reward in and of itself?

What you're really saying is that everyone would rather hit a ball against a wall than play together and the only way to get them to play together, something they claim they prefer, is to give them extra crap, to bribe them into it.  Sorry, if they'd rather solo, for whatever reason, they are not groupers!  They are soloers who will group if it gets them something extra!  Groupers are people who will leap at the chance to play with someone else, just for the sake of playing with someone else.  There's lots of people around here who claim that's what they want.  Why aren't these people playing together?

The thing is, we've explained this to you many times and you ignore it.  You just don't understand how anyone could just play together because they want to play together.  The reality seems to be that there just aren't that many people who want to group.  You have 50 people hitting balls against a wall, standing next to each other, who won't play together unless someone gives them something special.  They're not groupers.  They don't want to play together.  They just want extra stuff.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

6/21/12 5:47:12 PM#1493
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by UsualSuspect

I started typing a reply to this about three times, but eventually gave up when I realised I'm just repeating what I've said before. I think at this point you're just trolling, you're not listening to peoples comments and you're just rehashing the same thing over and over. I can keep telling you my position on this but I don't really see the point anymore. You have your opinion and you're not listening to anyone elses or even trying to understand, so I think we'll call it a day there.

Because you're not saying anything that makes any logical sense.  You're saying that people who enjoy grouping are not grouping because they'd rather solo.  That makes no sense.  You either like grouping or you do not.  You either choose to group or do you do not.  People who voluntarily solo when they could be grouping are not groupers, no matter what you seem to think they are.

I don't get why you seem to think that groupers need to get separate rewards for grouping when grouping, in and of itself, is it's own reward!  It's like playing tennis.  You can hit a ball against a wall all you want.  If someone else shows up and you start to play a game, should someone give you a reward for playing with someone else?  Or is playing with someone else, just because you enjoy playing with someone else, a reward in and of itself?

What you're really saying is that everyone would rather hit a ball against a wall than play together and the only way to get them to play together, something they claim they prefer, is to give them extra crap, to bribe them into it.  Sorry, if they'd rather solo, for whatever reason, they are not groupers!  They are soloers who will group if it gets them something extra!  Groupers are people who will leap at the chance to play with someone else, just for the sake of playing with someone else.  There's lots of people around here who claim that's what they want.  Why aren't these people playing together?

The thing is, we've explained this to you many times and you ignore it.  You just don't understand how anyone could just play together because they want to play together.  The reality seems to be that there just aren't that many people who want to group.  You have 50 people hitting balls against a wall, standing next to each other, who won't play together unless someone gives them something special.  They're not groupers.  They don't want to play together.  They just want extra stuff.

 

Thats because your explainations are totally false, and full of straw! You know full well players will not group together if it hurts the development of thier character. Thats your strawman, and its as transparent as glass.

I have never played a MMO where players smacked a ball against a wall, could you please point that game out to us?

Besides, you have already admitted you dont want any content other than solo content, so you have already lost the debate.

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4767

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

6/21/12 5:50:22 PM#1494
Originally posted by Adalwulff
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by UsualSuspect

I started typing a reply to this about three times, but eventually gave up when I realised I'm just repeating what I've said before. I think at this point you're just trolling, you're not listening to peoples comments and you're just rehashing the same thing over and over. I can keep telling you my position on this but I don't really see the point anymore. You have your opinion and you're not listening to anyone elses or even trying to understand, so I think we'll call it a day there.

Because you're not saying anything that makes any logical sense.  You're saying that people who enjoy grouping are not grouping because they'd rather solo.  That makes no sense.  You either like grouping or you do not.  You either choose to group or do you do not.  People who voluntarily solo when they could be grouping are not groupers, no matter what you seem to think they are.

I don't get why you seem to think that groupers need to get separate rewards for grouping when grouping, in and of itself, is it's own reward!  It's like playing tennis.  You can hit a ball against a wall all you want.  If someone else shows up and you start to play a game, should someone give you a reward for playing with someone else?  Or is playing with someone else, just because you enjoy playing with someone else, a reward in and of itself?

What you're really saying is that everyone would rather hit a ball against a wall than play together and the only way to get them to play together, something they claim they prefer, is to give them extra crap, to bribe them into it.  Sorry, if they'd rather solo, for whatever reason, they are not groupers!  They are soloers who will group if it gets them something extra!  Groupers are people who will leap at the chance to play with someone else, just for the sake of playing with someone else.  There's lots of people around here who claim that's what they want.  Why aren't these people playing together?

The thing is, we've explained this to you many times and you ignore it.  You just don't understand how anyone could just play together because they want to play together.  The reality seems to be that there just aren't that many people who want to group.  You have 50 people hitting balls against a wall, standing next to each other, who won't play together unless someone gives them something special.  They're not groupers.  They don't want to play together.  They just want extra stuff.

 

Thats because your explainations are totally false, and full of straw! You know full well players will not group together if it hurts the development of thier character. Thats your strawman, and its as transparent as glass.

I have never played a MMO where players smacked a ball against a wall, could you please point that game out to us?

Besides, you have already admitted you dont want any content other than solo content, so you have already lost the debate.

If the rewards are the same how would it hurt development?

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

6/21/12 5:57:25 PM#1495
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Adalwulff
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by UsualSuspect

I started typing a reply to this about three times, but eventually gave up when I realised I'm just repeating what I've said before. I think at this point you're just trolling, you're not listening to peoples comments and you're just rehashing the same thing over and over. I can keep telling you my position on this but I don't really see the point anymore. You have your opinion and you're not listening to anyone elses or even trying to understand, so I think we'll call it a day there.

Because you're not saying anything that makes any logical sense.  You're saying that people who enjoy grouping are not grouping because they'd rather solo.  That makes no sense.  You either like grouping or you do not.  You either choose to group or do you do not.  People who voluntarily solo when they could be grouping are not groupers, no matter what you seem to think they are.

I don't get why you seem to think that groupers need to get separate rewards for grouping when grouping, in and of itself, is it's own reward!  It's like playing tennis.  You can hit a ball against a wall all you want.  If someone else shows up and you start to play a game, should someone give you a reward for playing with someone else?  Or is playing with someone else, just because you enjoy playing with someone else, a reward in and of itself?

What you're really saying is that everyone would rather hit a ball against a wall than play together and the only way to get them to play together, something they claim they prefer, is to give them extra crap, to bribe them into it.  Sorry, if they'd rather solo, for whatever reason, they are not groupers!  They are soloers who will group if it gets them something extra!  Groupers are people who will leap at the chance to play with someone else, just for the sake of playing with someone else.  There's lots of people around here who claim that's what they want.  Why aren't these people playing together?

The thing is, we've explained this to you many times and you ignore it.  You just don't understand how anyone could just play together because they want to play together.  The reality seems to be that there just aren't that many people who want to group.  You have 50 people hitting balls against a wall, standing next to each other, who won't play together unless someone gives them something special.  They're not groupers.  They don't want to play together.  They just want extra stuff.

 

Thats because your explainations are totally false, and full of straw! You know full well players will not group together if it hurts the development of thier character. Thats your strawman, and its as transparent as glass.

I have never played a MMO where players smacked a ball against a wall, could you please point that game out to us?

Besides, you have already admitted you dont want any content other than solo content, so you have already lost the debate.

If the rewards are the same how would it hurt development?

 

Well for starters, solo content is designed for, wait for it..... one person!

So it makes perfect sense, that if a full group walked into solo content, they would be gimping thier develepment. You guys would have us beleive, that players would go ahead and group anyway, so they would have someone to chat with.

I cant believe you guys would think anyone is going to buy that arguement.

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4767

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

6/21/12 6:00:50 PM#1496
Originally posted by Adalwulff
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Adalwulff
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by UsualSuspect

I started typing a reply to this about three times, but eventually gave up when I realised I'm just repeating what I've said before. I think at this point you're just trolling, you're not listening to peoples comments and you're just rehashing the same thing over and over. I can keep telling you my position on this but I don't really see the point anymore. You have your opinion and you're not listening to anyone elses or even trying to understand, so I think we'll call it a day there.

Because you're not saying anything that makes any logical sense.  You're saying that people who enjoy grouping are not grouping because they'd rather solo.  That makes no sense.  You either like grouping or you do not.  You either choose to group or do you do not.  People who voluntarily solo when they could be grouping are not groupers, no matter what you seem to think they are.

I don't get why you seem to think that groupers need to get separate rewards for grouping when grouping, in and of itself, is it's own reward!  It's like playing tennis.  You can hit a ball against a wall all you want.  If someone else shows up and you start to play a game, should someone give you a reward for playing with someone else?  Or is playing with someone else, just because you enjoy playing with someone else, a reward in and of itself?

What you're really saying is that everyone would rather hit a ball against a wall than play together and the only way to get them to play together, something they claim they prefer, is to give them extra crap, to bribe them into it.  Sorry, if they'd rather solo, for whatever reason, they are not groupers!  They are soloers who will group if it gets them something extra!  Groupers are people who will leap at the chance to play with someone else, just for the sake of playing with someone else.  There's lots of people around here who claim that's what they want.  Why aren't these people playing together?

The thing is, we've explained this to you many times and you ignore it.  You just don't understand how anyone could just play together because they want to play together.  The reality seems to be that there just aren't that many people who want to group.  You have 50 people hitting balls against a wall, standing next to each other, who won't play together unless someone gives them something special.  They're not groupers.  They don't want to play together.  They just want extra stuff.

 

Thats because your explainations are totally false, and full of straw! You know full well players will not group together if it hurts the development of thier character. Thats your strawman, and its as transparent as glass.

I have never played a MMO where players smacked a ball against a wall, could you please point that game out to us?

Besides, you have already admitted you dont want any content other than solo content, so you have already lost the debate.

If the rewards are the same how would it hurt development?

 

Well for starters, solo content is designed for, wait for it..... one person!

So it makes perfect sense, that if a full group walked into solo content, they would be gimping thier develepment. You guys would have us beleive, that players would go ahead and group anyway, so they would have someone to chat with.

I cant believe you guys would think anyone is going to buy that arguement.

Not at all.  Scalable content could be done by solo or group, CoH had this very well.  A group could do it just as fast or slow as a solo, and they get better rewards.

So once again, if the rewards are the same how are they being gimped.

So groups can do the same content, but scaled for them, they get more xp, more loot, more rewards.  How are they being gmiped?

 

 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3677

6/21/12 6:15:13 PM#1497
Originally posted by Adalwulff

Thats because your explainations are totally false, and full of straw! You know full well players will not group together if it hurts the development of thier character. Thats your strawman, and its as transparent as glass.

I have never played a MMO where players smacked a ball against a wall, could you please point that game out to us?

Besides, you have already admitted you dont want any content other than solo content, so you have already lost the debate.

THEN THEY'RE NOT GROUPERS!

Grouping is a playstyle.  If people WANT to group together, they WILL.  But you're not looking for people who CHOOSE to group, you're looking to be able to force people to group or bribe them to group.  These are not people whose first choice is grouping, but getting extra stuff.

I've said I don't want group content or solo content, I just want content that adjusts itself to the playstyle of whoever happens to be going through it.  If you're solo, it will look exactly like solo content.  If you group, it will look exactly like group content.  It's accesible to all, however you want to play it.

[mod edit]

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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Hope: None

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3677

6/21/12 6:26:35 PM#1498
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Not at all.  Scalable content could be done by solo or group, CoH had this very well.  A group could do it just as fast or slow as a solo, and they get better rewards.

So once again, if the rewards are the same how are they being gimped.

So groups can do the same content, but scaled for them, they get more xp, more loot, more rewards.  How are they being gmiped?

 

 

That's the same thing I keep saying but apparently, they don't want scalable content, they want exclusive group content.  Personally, I'd like to see everything in a game be scalable.  You go through a low-level dungeon when you're low-level and it's got mobs scaled to you.  You go through the same dungeon when you're higher level and the mobs are harder.  Go through it in endgame and it's as hard as it gets.  It's the fastest way to do away with dead zones that don't get used because nobody has characters in that range.

Let's be honest though, we know what this is all about.  99% of all people playing these games are playing solo.  The groupers have nobody to play with because grouping just isn't popular anymore.  Therefore, they have to bribe people to play with them.  These are people who would never play group if they didn't get anything extra for doing it.  The groupers know that their playstyle is essentially extinct but they're clinging to it as long as they can, trying to force anyone they can to play with them until finally, nothing works.

Personally, I think their mothers should hang meat around their necks.  It'll probably be more effective.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

6/21/12 6:57:32 PM#1499
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Adalwulff
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Adalwulff
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by UsualSuspect

I started typing a reply to this about three times, but eventually gave up when I realised I'm just repeating what I've said before. I think at this point you're just trolling, you're not listening to peoples comments and you're just rehashing the same thing over and over. I can keep telling you my position on this but I don't really see the point anymore. You have your opinion and you're not listening to anyone elses or even trying to understand, so I think we'll call it a day there.

Because you're not saying anything that makes any logical sense.  You're saying that people who enjoy grouping are not grouping because they'd rather solo.  That makes no sense.  You either like grouping or you do not.  You either choose to group or do you do not.  People who voluntarily solo when they could be grouping are not groupers, no matter what you seem to think they are.

I don't get why you seem to think that groupers need to get separate rewards for grouping when grouping, in and of itself, is it's own reward!  It's like playing tennis.  You can hit a ball against a wall all you want.  If someone else shows up and you start to play a game, should someone give you a reward for playing with someone else?  Or is playing with someone else, just because you enjoy playing with someone else, a reward in and of itself?

What you're really saying is that everyone would rather hit a ball against a wall than play together and the only way to get them to play together, something they claim they prefer, is to give them extra crap, to bribe them into it.  Sorry, if they'd rather solo, for whatever reason, they are not groupers!  They are soloers who will group if it gets them something extra!  Groupers are people who will leap at the chance to play with someone else, just for the sake of playing with someone else.  There's lots of people around here who claim that's what they want.  Why aren't these people playing together?

The thing is, we've explained this to you many times and you ignore it.  You just don't understand how anyone could just play together because they want to play together.  The reality seems to be that there just aren't that many people who want to group.  You have 50 people hitting balls against a wall, standing next to each other, who won't play together unless someone gives them something special.  They're not groupers.  They don't want to play together.  They just want extra stuff.

 

Thats because your explainations are totally false, and full of straw! You know full well players will not group together if it hurts the development of thier character. Thats your strawman, and its as transparent as glass.

I have never played a MMO where players smacked a ball against a wall, could you please point that game out to us?

Besides, you have already admitted you dont want any content other than solo content, so you have already lost the debate.

If the rewards are the same how would it hurt development?

 

Well for starters, solo content is designed for, wait for it..... one person!

So it makes perfect sense, that if a full group walked into solo content, they would be gimping thier develepment. You guys would have us beleive, that players would go ahead and group anyway, so they would have someone to chat with.

I cant believe you guys would think anyone is going to buy that arguement.

Not at all.  Scalable content could be done by solo or group, CoH had this very well.  A group could do it just as fast or slow as a solo, and they get better rewards.

So once again, if the rewards are the same how are they being gimped.

So groups can do the same content, but scaled for them, they get more xp, more loot, more rewards.  How are they being gmiped?

 

 

 

We have already discussed CoH, and that scaleable mechanic did not work. I played CoH for a long time, and everyone there agreed that it didnt scale right. A full group would blow right thru it.

I've said it before and I will say it again, if the mechanic for scaleable content was working right, we would not be having this debate. Until them, its appropriate to give players as many game options as possible, that means content for soloers, groupers, crafters, explorers ...ect ect

The fact that your against having any game options other than solo content, speaks volumes about your true agenda.

  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

6/21/12 7:03:03 PM#1500
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by Adalwulff

Thats because your explainations are totally false, and full of straw! You know full well players will not group together if it hurts the development of thier character. Thats your strawman, and its as transparent as glass.

I have never played a MMO where players smacked a ball against a wall, could you please point that game out to us?

Besides, you have already admitted you dont want any content other than solo content, so you have already lost the debate.

THEN THEY'RE NOT GROUPERS!

Grouping is a playstyle.  If people WANT to group together, they WILL.  But you're not looking for people who CHOOSE to group, you're looking to be able to force people to group or bribe them to group.  These are not people whose first choice is grouping, but getting extra stuff.

I've said I don't want group content or solo content, I just want content that adjusts itself to the playstyle of whoever happens to be going through it.  If you're solo, it will look exactly like solo content.  If you group, it will look exactly like group content.  It's accesible to all, however you want to play it.

But by all means, keep lying about what I've said.

 

Your accusing us of lieing? When I have said many times that scaleable content is fine, if game devs ever do it right, I havent see it yet. Its probably not very easy to code, or we would have seen more of it.

Face facts buddy, we want more than solo content, if that ruffles your feathers, then go play something else.

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