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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The 'Group Play vs Solo Play in an MMO' Thread

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2110 posts found
  UsualSuspect

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/01/04
Posts: 1219

2/15/12 2:21:08 AM#1321

Expanding on my previous post. I got to thinking about what caused all this solo in MMO nonsense and thought about World of Warcraft. Every developer since its release has tried copying the WoW formula, with soloable to level cap, but didn't look at what the actual players were doing in WoW.

Every time I read a post about WoW it's along the lines of, "People are just sitting in cities queueing up for dungeons all day.", or, "People are rushing to level cap.", or, "People are just doing warzones over and over again.". So what they're actually doing is ignoring all the solo content and participating in the group content. And despite all the posts from soloers saying a group-centric game wouldn't work, this is actually working on a massive scale to the number of 10 million people logging in.

You think they've held 10 million subscibers purely on their solo questing? That people have remade alt after alt to follow that awesome path to max level, only to do it all over again? No. People like the multiplayer dungeons, the pvp content, the massive raids, they don't even bother with the solo content anymore.

And this is despite the fact that the multiplayer content is the same thing over and over again, the same raid, the same dungeon. It reminds me of my previous post, regarding Counterstrike. I remember a map on there which I think was called Dust. It was so popular that some servers hosted only that map and nothing else. Why? Because when you throw in the players it opens up into some interesting gameplay, with multiple choke points, multiple lines of attack, objectives to reach, and so on.

This is what appeals with repeated dungeon or raid runs. Every one is going to be different, even if only slightly, it's enough difference to make each run unique. This is the complete opposite to content developed for solo players, as it has to be perfectly honed to make it possible for the single character to go through it. Every encounter has to be prepared, every path predetermined.

And that's my point. As much as the newly released games are catering to soloers, it's not what the vast majority of MMO players want. The WoW subscriber numbers speak for themselves.

  BereKin

Novice Member

Joined: 1/22/12
Posts: 285

2/15/12 12:14:02 PM#1322

If somebody wants to play solo in mmo, let it be. Same goes for people who like group play. It should be freedom of choice.

 

 

 

 

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

2/15/12 12:29:04 PM#1323
Originally posted by Nimar

If somebody wants to play solo in mmo, let it be. Same goes for people who like group play. It should be freedom of choice.

 

 

 

 

That is stupid. That implies that the choice is made in a vacuum. Its not.

  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

2/15/12 2:35:56 PM#1324
Originally posted by UsualSuspect

Expanding on my previous post. I got to thinking about what caused all this solo in MMO nonsense and thought about World of Warcraft. Every developer since its release has tried copying the WoW formula, with soloable to level cap, but didn't look at what the actual players were doing in WoW.

Every time I read a post about WoW it's along the lines of, "People are just sitting in cities queueing up for dungeons all day.", or, "People are rushing to level cap.", or, "People are just doing warzones over and over again.". So what they're actually doing is ignoring all the solo content and participating in the group content. And despite all the posts from soloers saying a group-centric game wouldn't work, this is actually working on a massive scale to the number of 10 million people logging in.

You think they've held 10 million subscibers purely on their solo questing? That people have remade alt after alt to follow that awesome path to max level, only to do it all over again? No. People like the multiplayer dungeons, the pvp content, the massive raids, they don't even bother with the solo content anymore.

And this is despite the fact that the multiplayer content is the same thing over and over again, the same raid, the same dungeon. It reminds me of my previous post, regarding Counterstrike. I remember a map on there which I think was called Dust. It was so popular that some servers hosted only that map and nothing else. Why? Because when you throw in the players it opens up into some interesting gameplay, with multiple choke points, multiple lines of attack, objectives to reach, and so on.

This is what appeals with repeated dungeon or raid runs. Every one is going to be different, even if only slightly, it's enough difference to make each run unique. This is the complete opposite to content developed for solo players, as it has to be perfectly honed to make it possible for the single character to go through it. Every encounter has to be prepared, every path predetermined.

And that's my point. As much as the newly released games are catering to soloers, it's not what the vast majority of MMO players want. The WoW subscriber numbers speak for themselves.

 

Those are some excellent points, and when I think about it, the WoW players always talk about raids, never the solo content. The other thing I hear about are BG's, which is also group play.

I just got an idea, what if the solo content was instanced, instead of the other way around?!

We could have raids, world pvp, invasions from NPC hordes, all kinds of action. The soloers, who dont like to be bothered, can go do instance dungeons, and instance quests, kinda like CoH.

Now that seems fair to me, why build a whole world for a soloer, give them instances and keep them away from us...HAH!

  darkhalf357x

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 1109

I'm only playing the role chosen for me. Who you supposed to be?

2/15/12 2:53:42 PM#1325
Originally posted by UsualSuspect

Expanding on my previous post. I got to thinking about what caused all this solo in MMO nonsense and thought about World of Warcraft. Every developer since its release has tried copying the WoW formula, with soloable to level cap, but didn't look at what the actual players were doing in WoW.

Every time I read a post about WoW it's along the lines of, "People are just sitting in cities queueing up for dungeons all day.", or, "People are rushing to level cap.", or, "People are just doing warzones over and over again.". So what they're actually doing is ignoring all the solo content and participating in the group content. And despite all the posts from soloers saying a group-centric game wouldn't work, this is actually working on a massive scale to the number of 10 million people logging in.

You think they've held 10 million subscibers purely on their solo questing? That people have remade alt after alt to follow that awesome path to max level, only to do it all over again? No. People like the multiplayer dungeons, the pvp content, the massive raids, they don't even bother with the solo content anymore.

And this is despite the fact that the multiplayer content is the same thing over and over again, the same raid, the same dungeon. It reminds me of my previous post, regarding Counterstrike. I remember a map on there which I think was called Dust. It was so popular that some servers hosted only that map and nothing else. Why? Because when you throw in the players it opens up into some interesting gameplay, with multiple choke points, multiple lines of attack, objectives to reach, and so on.

This is what appeals with repeated dungeon or raid runs. Every one is going to be different, even if only slightly, it's enough difference to make each run unique. This is the complete opposite to content developed for solo players, as it has to be perfectly honed to make it possible for the single character to go through it. Every encounter has to be prepared, every path predetermined.

And that's my point. As much as the newly released games are catering to soloers, it's not what the vast majority of MMO players want. The WoW subscriber numbers speak for themselves.

The underlying problem is the structure of (current) MMOs.  The whole 'solo' just to get to max level so you can group/raid is broken.  People who like to solo get to max and become bored because they MAY not like to raid/group (depends on the player) and those who prefer grouping complain they have to trog through solo content to get to raid/grouping (again depends on the player).

It makes more logical sense to just have content and give players the option to play it how they want.  Someone wanting to solo a zone should have no bearing on someone who wants to group. To say an MMO is one over the other based on the fact that its in the name is naive, it doesnt cover the experience given.  Devs need to figure this out.

In terms of groups, I never understood why they dont allow players to START at max level. What is the point of making someone go through 'level' content if they dont want to or enjoy it?

MMOs need to change their structure to attempt to meet the various playstyles that are nearly impossible to predict.  As long as they develop something that is fun and involving on all levels, it could very well paint a path to success.

The question is who is willing to take that risk, especially considering how fickle we are as a genre ;-)  (myself included).

  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

2/15/12 3:12:03 PM#1326
Originally posted by darkhalf357x
Originally posted by UsualSuspect

Expanding on my previous post. I got to thinking about what caused all this solo in MMO nonsense and thought about World of Warcraft. Every developer since its release has tried copying the WoW formula, with soloable to level cap, but didn't look at what the actual players were doing in WoW.

Every time I read a post about WoW it's along the lines of, "People are just sitting in cities queueing up for dungeons all day.", or, "People are rushing to level cap.", or, "People are just doing warzones over and over again.". So what they're actually doing is ignoring all the solo content and participating in the group content. And despite all the posts from soloers saying a group-centric game wouldn't work, this is actually working on a massive scale to the number of 10 million people logging in.

You think they've held 10 million subscibers purely on their solo questing? That people have remade alt after alt to follow that awesome path to max level, only to do it all over again? No. People like the multiplayer dungeons, the pvp content, the massive raids, they don't even bother with the solo content anymore.

And this is despite the fact that the multiplayer content is the same thing over and over again, the same raid, the same dungeon. It reminds me of my previous post, regarding Counterstrike. I remember a map on there which I think was called Dust. It was so popular that some servers hosted only that map and nothing else. Why? Because when you throw in the players it opens up into some interesting gameplay, with multiple choke points, multiple lines of attack, objectives to reach, and so on.

This is what appeals with repeated dungeon or raid runs. Every one is going to be different, even if only slightly, it's enough difference to make each run unique. This is the complete opposite to content developed for solo players, as it has to be perfectly honed to make it possible for the single character to go through it. Every encounter has to be prepared, every path predetermined.

And that's my point. As much as the newly released games are catering to soloers, it's not what the vast majority of MMO players want. The WoW subscriber numbers speak for themselves.

The underlying problem is the structure of (current) MMOs.  The whole 'solo' just to get to max level so you can group/raid is broken.  People who like to solo get to max and become bored because they MAY not like to raid/group (depends on the player) and those who prefer grouping complain they have to trog through solo content to get to raid/grouping (again depends on the player).

It makes more logical sense to just have content and give players the option to play it how they want.  Someone wanting to solo a zone should have no bearing on someone who wants to group. To say an MMO is one over the other based on the fact that its in the name is naive, it doesnt cover the experience given.  Devs need to figure this out.

In terms of groups, I never understood why they dont allow players to START at max level. What is the point of making someone go through 'level' content if they dont want to or enjoy it?

MMOs need to change their structure to attempt to meet the various playstyles that are nearly impossible to predict.  As long as they develop something that is fun and involving on all levels, it could very well paint a path to success.

The question is who is willing to take that risk, especially considering how fickle we are as a genre ;-)  (myself included).

 

First, I think you misunderstood UsualSuspect, and I think your new to MMO's, in fact you MUST be.

You cannot "just let players play it how they want", because there are system mechanics involved. Mobs that are soloable, will be steamrolled by groups, which creates imbalance.

How would you make quests viable to both the soloer and the group? You cant, it is impossible, that is the problem.

  SuprGamerX

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/05/09
Posts: 538

2/15/12 3:13:45 PM#1327

Heh , why are people so selfish now a days in the MMO world?  Seriously if you think a Dev should work and publish a MMO solely on what you like , then I got news for you buddy , don't play any freaking MMO's and stick to consoles or standalone games. 

 WoW did a good job with balancing group Vs Solo , but Atlantica Online is alot better with the guild/alliance oriented instances (Just a shame it's cash shop intensive , otherwise this game would of been off the charts).

 MMO population changed alot in recent years , it's all about the loot and selfish personal fame , it's so foolish that it's pathetic to watch.

 Probably why nothing appeals to me besides EVE-Online and some upcoming releases like PlanetSide 2 and End of Nations , where coop is key to heavy advancement but where solo play can advance you a little.

 Ironic that in the 90's with Ultima Online , Nexus TK , and a few others ,were the fathers of the MMO world and I can still remember being the age of 14 and people learning me the ropes and as time went by in that game I showed them tactics on how to kill bosses and such. Everyone acted mature back in the 90's , braggers/smack talkers were almost non existent , the communities back then were to die for , it felt like you were actually part of something special.  Alot of good memories that seems like a lifetime ago , such a pity. 

  darkhalf357x

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 1109

I'm only playing the role chosen for me. Who you supposed to be?

2/15/12 3:36:02 PM#1328
Originally posted by Adalwulff
Originally posted by darkhalf357x
Originally posted by UsualSuspect

Expanding on my previous post. I got to thinking about what caused all this solo in MMO nonsense and thought about World of Warcraft. Every developer since its release has tried copying the WoW formula, with soloable to level cap, but didn't look at what the actual players were doing in WoW.

Every time I read a post about WoW it's along the lines of, "People are just sitting in cities queueing up for dungeons all day.", or, "People are rushing to level cap.", or, "People are just doing warzones over and over again.". So what they're actually doing is ignoring all the solo content and participating in the group content. And despite all the posts from soloers saying a group-centric game wouldn't work, this is actually working on a massive scale to the number of 10 million people logging in.

You think they've held 10 million subscibers purely on their solo questing? That people have remade alt after alt to follow that awesome path to max level, only to do it all over again? No. People like the multiplayer dungeons, the pvp content, the massive raids, they don't even bother with the solo content anymore.

And this is despite the fact that the multiplayer content is the same thing over and over again, the same raid, the same dungeon. It reminds me of my previous post, regarding Counterstrike. I remember a map on there which I think was called Dust. It was so popular that some servers hosted only that map and nothing else. Why? Because when you throw in the players it opens up into some interesting gameplay, with multiple choke points, multiple lines of attack, objectives to reach, and so on.

This is what appeals with repeated dungeon or raid runs. Every one is going to be different, even if only slightly, it's enough difference to make each run unique. This is the complete opposite to content developed for solo players, as it has to be perfectly honed to make it possible for the single character to go through it. Every encounter has to be prepared, every path predetermined.

And that's my point. As much as the newly released games are catering to soloers, it's not what the vast majority of MMO players want. The WoW subscriber numbers speak for themselves.

The underlying problem is the structure of (current) MMOs.  The whole 'solo' just to get to max level so you can group/raid is broken.  People who like to solo get to max and become bored because they MAY not like to raid/group (depends on the player) and those who prefer grouping complain they have to trog through solo content to get to raid/grouping (again depends on the player).

It makes more logical sense to just have content and give players the option to play it how they want.  Someone wanting to solo a zone should have no bearing on someone who wants to group. To say an MMO is one over the other based on the fact that its in the name is naive, it doesnt cover the experience given.  Devs need to figure this out.

In terms of groups, I never understood why they dont allow players to START at max level. What is the point of making someone go through 'level' content if they dont want to or enjoy it?

MMOs need to change their structure to attempt to meet the various playstyles that are nearly impossible to predict.  As long as they develop something that is fun and involving on all levels, it could very well paint a path to success.

The question is who is willing to take that risk, especially considering how fickle we are as a genre ;-)  (myself included).

 

First, I think you misunderstood UsualSuspect, and I think your new to MMO's, in fact you MUST be.

You cannot "just let players play it how they want", because there are system mechanics involved. Mobs that are soloable, will be steamrolled by groups, which creates imbalance.

How would you make quests viable to both the soloer and the group? You cant, it is impossible, that is the problem.

Perhaps and I appologize for that.  Good catch that I am new to MMOs, I am fresh blood ;-)  I come from the console side of the house and heavy RPG player... but being older I like the complexity and challenge MMOs present.  Console RPGs (today) are too simple and straight forward for my tastes.  I love the deep mechanisms of crafting, skill building, and tactical combat as well as the fact that MMOs give the experience of being in a 'dynamic' world.  I believe that is why people who like to solo, dont 'just want to play solo RPGs'  Been there and done that.  I'm just asking for an option. 

Understand and agree with the problem.  Mobs (or enemies hanging around in groups) I dont think is the right approach.  I solo group content all the time, the issue is I cant handle 6 people at once (at current level) - and yes I like the uncanny challenging odds of survival.  Its what I play for. 

Why not change how mobs operate in MMOs?  Have them perform actions or execute some repeatable task.  A group goes in, they tackle them head on...taking what comes at them.  Solo goes in, I take them one by one slowly thinning them out.

This is just a suggestion, perhaps naive, but at least paints a scenario or potential new direction to take MMOs in.  I still stand behind the fact that people should have the option to play how they want.  Forcing players either way isnt going to be viable in the long term.

My thoughts about grouping (its not an issue) have been said many times before in this great thread.  Its not that I am OPPOSED to it (i.e. get rid of it all together), its how its conducted (at least in the games) Im playing now.  I enjoy the combat.  But when you group with strangers you get all sorts of playstyles including those who want to rush to get to the end boss.  Right now there is no way (that I am aware of) to mitigate this.  I either have to follow (or lead) the group or not do the content.  Or looking for group mates at lower levels because you started the game later than most.  There are no tools to help deal with  this adding to fustration.

Perhaps the issue has more to do with a particular community than the mechanics or theory behind grouping.  On paper it sounds great "Team up with your friends and tackle great creatures of Evil!"  When it works (mindset, schedule, etc) its great... but more times than not the experience is disappointing.

I doubt either side of this debate is 'right' but do hope it allows the developers to think about new ways to produce and deliver content that can at least appeal to more than one side at a time.  That just sounds limiting giving the amount of time MMOs have had to mature up until this point. 

I look forward to what Guild Wars 2 has to offer.

  SpliceMain

Novice Member

Joined: 7/15/10
Posts: 14

2/16/12 4:41:36 PM#1329
It is so much work expressing oneself adequately via text.  A pub would be way better!
 
It is unreasonable to compare RL to any game. RL is real, games are not. The suggestion that I should expect to group in an MMO because I must deal with others every day in RL is just silly. The comparison in fact is backwards. I can perform almost every task I do every day without a retinue despite the fact that I am constantly interacting with others in the massive real world. How often do you group centric folks lfg before you leave your home to do anything?
 
Comparing shooters to MMO’s is also troublesome. The two genres are way too different. The tactical chatter on a team is there and I bet that is what is enjoyed the most hence the analogy. Shooter maps are indeed popular when they allow and enable interesting tactics. The instances in MMOs vary little and are just that, instances. They are restrictive and anything but massive but I will concede that they can do a great job challenging a team of players. For this instances are ideal.
 
I want what Cephus wants.  And I think I know what US wants, namely a game where one person can’t accomplish anything important by himself, not because he especially wants to prevent it  but because if one player can do things then groups would find the same tasks too easy and he wants to experience challenging group dynamics at all times.  
 
Solo players understand why people like to group.  WE GET IT!  BUT, if people can’t grasp why anyone would like to play a game like WoW without having to lfg all the time then they haven’t followed this thread or they are REALLY thick.  I know why people like to group.  Sometimes I do too.  But usually not. 
 
It’s the formal grouping mechanics that bother me if I have to subject myself to them when I don’t feel like comiting so much time.  It’s not group, team or social efforts per se.  If a big dinosaur comes out of the woods in the world somewhere and everyone nearby has to go fight it to defend the town I’d be all for that every time.  Help down the dinosaur and collect points to cash in somewhere.  I would enjoy collective play of this sort.  Have battle lines where I can join the fight for as long as I like (pvp or pve) and I would be there.  I could partake of all these things without having to give orders or take orders.  It’s the freedom I want.  There is no requirement upon developers to demand formal groups in order to engage in collective activities.  It is the constant requirement to enter formal groups and then enter an instance that I reject.  Not the cooperation. 
 
  UsualSuspect

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/01/04
Posts: 1219

2/16/12 5:53:22 PM#1330
Originally posted by SpliceMain
It is so much work expressing oneself adequately via text.  A pub would be way better!
 
Mmmm... beer...
 
It is unreasonable to compare RL to any game. RL is real, games are not. The suggestion that I should expect to group in an MMO because I must deal with others every day in RL is just silly. The comparison in fact is backwards. I can perform almost every task I do every day without a retinue despite the fact that I am constantly interacting with others in the massive real world. How often do you group centric folks lfg before you leave your home to do anything?
 
You're not expected to group because you deal with others every day, that's not the point. What I'm trying to say is that we deal with people every day, for good and bad, so why is it such a task when it comes to doing the same in an MMO? I understand you might just want to log in and do your own thing for a while, avoiding people, but I ask.. why log into a multiplayer game to do that? If you want a bit of solitude then play.. solitaire? It comes down to choice, sometimes I don't want to group up with people and don't want to hear inane chatter, so I just go play some Mass Effect 2 or something. Why make an MMO a single player experience simply because you want to play it without the other players around? There are plenty of single player games, why do we need to make a multiplayer game have the same options?
 
Comparing shooters to MMO’s is also troublesome. The two genres are way too different. The tactical chatter on a team is there and I bet that is what is enjoyed the most hence the analogy. Shooter maps are indeed popular when they allow and enable interesting tactics. The instances in MMOs vary little and are just that, instances. They are restrictive and anything but massive but I will concede that they can do a great job challenging a team of players. For this instances are ideal.
 
Instances suck. I hate them. I hate their invention. I hate their consistent use in every MMO since WoW. EverQuest had it right with dungeons - make the places huge and a maze of corridors and let the players carry on. There was no mad rush through a dungeon back then, because the boss was a rare spawn anyway, so he might be there.. or he might spawn in twelve hours time. People enjoyed the dungeons as dungeons, not some out of the way, instanced, rush to the boss mob, piece of crap that they design now. Oh, did I mention, I hate instances?
 
I want what Cephus wants.  And I think I know what US wants, namely a game where one person can’t accomplish anything important by himself, not because he especially wants to prevent it  but because if one player can do things then groups would find the same tasks too easy and he wants to experience challenging group dynamics at all times.  
 
I grew up with RPG's, the table top kind, from basic D&D to Vampire The Masquerade, Shadowrun and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. In all of them, nobody was a hero, nobody was the one person who could do everything, RPG's were built on people aiding each other against hopeless odds. Look at games like Neverwinter Nights or similar titles. You never play the game alone, you always have a group of computer controlled team mates with you. That's how RPG's should be, if you want to be the ultimate badass then play some single player game such as God of War.
 
Yes, you do know what I want.
 
Solo players understand why people like to group.  WE GET IT!  BUT, if people can’t grasp why anyone would like to play a game like WoW without having to lfg all the time then they haven’t followed this thread or they are REALLY thick.  I know why people like to group.  Sometimes I do too.  But usually not. 
 
Look back through my posts, I've never said soloing should be completely eradicated from MMO's, there should always be an option to solo. However, that option should be very limited. Even in original EverQuest you could solo, but only on low difficulty mobs, in out of the way places, or with specific classes. The Necromancer and Druid did quite well soloing.
 
What I don't agree with is changing the whole basis of MMO's so people can solo freely as much as they want. At their heart, MMO's are multiplayer games, people play them for the multiplayer aspect, even the soloers do. The MMO's released now, though, are 90% soloing to 10% multiplayer, especially in the levelling game. After that it does tend to switch the other way. Which again is stupid.
 
Look at the backlash on SW:TOR. That game is the current pinnacle of the solo MMO and people are hating it. I know, some people enjoy it, but almost every one who says they're enjoying it is doing so because of the story or single player feel, rather than the fact it's an MMO. Is it really that hard to see that MMO players don't want their genre to be just another single player game , but with a chat room?
 
It’s the formal grouping mechanics that bother me if I have to subject myself to them when I don’t feel like comiting so much time.  It’s not group, team or social efforts per se.  If a big dinosaur comes out of the woods in the world somewhere and everyone nearby has to go fight it to defend the town I’d be all for that every time.  Help down the dinosaur and collect points to cash in somewhere.  I would enjoy collective play of this sort.  Have battle lines where I can join the fight for as long as I like (pvp or pve) and I would be there.  I could partake of all these things without having to give orders or take orders.  It’s the freedom I want.  There is no requirement upon developers to demand formal groups in order to engage in collective activities.  It is the constant requirement to enter formal groups and then enter an instance that I reject.  Not the cooperation. 
 
Did I mention I hate instances? From what you describe, that sounds like something Guild Wars 2 is going to be trying. People teaming together to fight something large, rather than 'officially' grouping up and entering an instance or whatever. I tend not to follow MMO's until they're released, so I only know the basics, but I remember seeing a video of some massive elemental that people were joining in to fight. I'm actually really curious as to how that's going to work, actually. What if you come in late when the thing is on 10 hitpoints? Does it respawn at some point? Does your game change to reflect the fact you killed it, despite only needing to remove 10 hitpoints - I hear there's a lot of phasing in that game. 

To sum up: I'd like to keep MMO's as multiplayer games. Not exclusively, soloing should be a limited option, but groups and teams should be a major focus. There are thousands of single player games to every MMO created, there are plenty of options for the 'soloer', let's not allow MMO's to become just another single player game with a chatroom. I'm sure I speak for us all when I say we play MMO's because they offer something that single player games can't, and that's created by the players. Isolate the players, put them all in their own single player hamster ball, and I can't see any of us being happy with the outcome.

  darkhalf357x

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 1109

I'm only playing the role chosen for me. Who you supposed to be?

2/16/12 6:49:49 PM#1331

Great comments...

I am subbed to SWTOR (Havent logged on since January 12th).  We are not hating SWTOR because there is no grouping (grouping does exist though its limited).  We (or maybe I) am disappointed (not complaining) about SWTOR because it left nothing to the imagination.  Granted I only made it to Nar Shardaa, but up until that point each planet was literally a litany of corridors with excellent story content. It was amazing, but at some point typically in the mid 20s you start to recognize the pattern and it becomes boring.  There is no crafting (you send a NPC out and they return - and you have to PAY COIN for it!), There is no housing, There is world you can randomly explore, there is no cantina where you can hang and talk with other players. Essentially you get story and thats it. I honestly believe BioWare was trying to create their own 'version' of an MMO - which has attracted a specific audience, most of which I would say are new to MMOs. Growing the genre.  Its just not for me and a bunch of others. 

Kingdom of Amular has more exploration and MMO playstyle than SWTOR, unfortunately the S.A. Salvatore story doesnt fit well with the combat and world they created, but I digress...

 I also would like to say, telling someone to go 'play single player games' is moot.  We are obviously playing and enjoying MMOs for a reason, and most likely cannot be done with single player games.  The experience no matter how you paint it is different than an MMO. Single player console RPGs dont have the same maturity, depth, and complexity that can be found (more) in MMOs.  The social aspects are an added benefit.  God of War or even Mass Effect 2 cannot compare to say Everquest as an RPG.  The latter offers WAY more in terms of content and customization.

To set the records straight, I too do not want a single player MMO with social interaction.  If I had to request I want more dynamic grouping mechanic that happens naturally and automatically.

And I pose one question.  What does one do when they are low level and want to do content that requires a group but no one will either group or there is no one there?  In this instance I would assume the player would have to miss the content, and its situations like that which I would look to remove or at least reduce.

And I am following Guild Wars 2 :-)  I cant wait.  And yes, they are trying to change the MMO formula (and I am thankful for the attempt) where there is no 'oranized' grouping.  If you are fighting and someone else shows up the enemies get stronger and harder. This has the possibility of triggering a 'dynamic event' where something major happens to all invovled.  Again, I havent seen this in action, but leans towards a better way to group than what we currently have.  I'll definitely let you know as I will be there day 1.

 

 

  UsualSuspect

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/01/04
Posts: 1219

2/17/12 12:31:32 PM#1332
Originally posted by UsualSuspect
 
I grew up with RPG's, the table top kind, from basic D&D to Vampire The Masquerade, Shadowrun and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. In all of them, nobody was a hero, nobody was the one person who could do everything, RPG's were built on people aiding each other against hopeless odds. Look at games like Neverwinter Nights or similar titles. You never play the game alone, you always have a group of computer controlled team mates with you. That's how RPG's should be, if you want to be the ultimate badass then play some single player game such as God of War.

I was looking at this comment and came up with an idea that might pacify both sides. How about an MMO that has the usual trinity, difficult mobs, raids, dungeons, lots of group content very little solo content, etc.. basically a group-centric game. But then have a character class that is made purely for soloing. So with this character class the group mobs will be soloable, dungeons will be soloable but difficult, and so on. However, that class would never be able to group with other people, so would literally be a solo only class for those who enjoy it.

The class would also be very customizable, so you could select from the group classes and mix two or three of them, so you could have a fighter/cleric/wizard or something along those lines. Would that work? I'd imagine people would create two characters or more, one for the grouping side and one for the soloing side. Would people just solo it 'because they can', or would you find people jumping into the grouping game?

It would actually be a pretty nice experiment to see how the players gravitate to one side or the other, to truly find out what the players are looking for.

  SpliceMain

Novice Member

Joined: 7/15/10
Posts: 14

2/17/12 3:20:07 PM#1333
Originally posted by UsualSuspect
Originally posted by UsualSuspect
 
I grew up with RPG's, the table top kind, from basic D&D to Vampire The Masquerade, Shadowrun and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. In all of them, nobody was a hero, nobody was the one person who could do everything, RPG's were built on people aiding each other against hopeless odds. Look at games like Neverwinter Nights or similar titles. You never play the game alone, you always have a group of computer controlled team mates with you. That's how RPG's should be, if you want to be the ultimate badass then play some single player game such as God of War.

I was looking at this comment and came up with an idea that might pacify both sides. How about an MMO that has the usual trinity, difficult mobs, raids, dungeons, lots of group content very little solo content, etc.. basically a group-centric game. But then have a character class that is made purely for soloing. So with this character class the group mobs will be soloable, dungeons will be soloable but difficult, and so on. However, that class would never be able to group with other people, so would literally be a solo only class for those who enjoy it.

The class would also be very customizable, so you could select from the group classes and mix two or three of them, so you could have a fighter/cleric/wizard or something along those lines. Would that work? I'd imagine people would create two characters or more, one for the grouping side and one for the soloing side. Would people just solo it 'because they can', or would you find people jumping into the grouping game?

It would actually be a pretty nice experiment to see how the players gravitate to one side or the other, to truly find out what the players are looking for.

 

I like the idea.  It’s the flip side of my earlier thought to have a server with beefed up mobs that no single player could deal with (level for level of course). 
 
However, I think you would need separate servers to prevent the super solo toons from influencing the activities of the grouping players as would surely happen if they were in the same world.  “Hey superman, can you lend us a hand?”  Not everyone would care but plenty would.    
  SpliceMain

Novice Member

Joined: 7/15/10
Posts: 14

2/17/12 6:09:04 PM#1334
Originally posted by darkhalf357x

 

 I also would like to say, telling someone to go 'play single player games' is moot.  We are obviously playing and enjoying MMOs for a reason, and most likely cannot be done with single player games.  The experience no matter how you paint it is different than an MMO. Single player console RPGs dont have the same maturity, depth, and complexity that can be found (more) in MMOs.  The social aspects are an added benefit.  God of War or even Mass Effect 2 cannot compare to say Everquest as an RPG.  The latter offers WAY more in terms of content and customization.

To set the records straight, I too do not want a single player MMO with social interaction.  If I had to request I want more dynamic grouping mechanic that happens naturally and automatically.

And I pose one question.  What does one do when they are low level and want to do content that requires a group but no one will either group or there is no one there?  In this instance I would assume the player would have to miss the content, and its situations like that which I would look to remove or at least reduce.

 

 

 

Too right about solo play.  If the games cater to to solo play there is a reason.  I left WoW for 2 years after playing it for 3 and soloing it was more fun when I returned because I could do more on my own.  No one knows more about how people play an MMO than Blizzard.  They never offer more than a glimpse into what their stats tell them but the data would be facinating to study.  

Grouping in a lonely area can be a real issue absolutely. I ran into it in LOTRO trying to do the Fellowship group quests.  I never blamed players though for not dropping their own objectives and racing to join me.  This is a design problem.  Pleasing everyone is downright impossible. 

  UsualSuspect

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/01/04
Posts: 1219

2/18/12 1:32:39 AM#1335
Originally posted by SpliceMain

Grouping in a lonely area can be a real issue absolutely. I ran into it in LOTRO trying to do the Fellowship group quests.  I never blamed players though for not dropping their own objectives and racing to join me.  This is a design problem.  Pleasing everyone is downright impossible. 

I think the design problem with things like LOTRO fellowship quests were more to do with the quest chains than people not wanting to do them. The whole quest chain design is horribly flawed, it's like waiting for stars to align to get groups for them. You have to be on the right quest in the chain, someone else has to be on the same quest in the chain, if a group needs four or six then another few people need to be on the same quest in the chain, then those people need to be able to dedicate the time at that point, be the right classes to be able to progress through the quest (can't go without a healer!), be of appropriate level, etc, and those are just off the top of my head!

Quest chains are just another lean towards single player gaming that has no real place in an MMO.

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

2/19/12 4:21:04 PM#1336
Originally posted by UsualSuspect

I was looking at this comment and came up with an idea that might pacify both sides. How about an MMO that has the usual trinity, difficult mobs, raids, dungeons, lots of group content very little solo content, etc.. basically a group-centric game. But then have a character class that is made purely for soloing. So with this character class the group mobs will be soloable, dungeons will be soloable but difficult, and so on. However, that class would never be able to group with other people, so would literally be a solo only class for those who enjoy it.

The class would also be very customizable, so you could select from the group classes and mix two or three of them, so you could have a fighter/cleric/wizard or something along those lines. Would that work? I'd imagine people would create two characters or more, one for the grouping side and one for the soloing side. Would people just solo it 'because they can', or would you find people jumping into the grouping game?

It would actually be a pretty nice experiment to see how the players gravitate to one side or the other, to truly find out what the players are looking for.

I bet you'd find the majority of players going for the solo character.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  iLasers

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/02/12
Posts: 2

"A life lived in fear is a life half-lived."

3/02/12 2:32:08 PM#1337

I second that. I prefer to solo-play with just about everything I can. However, I love grouping/partying with a small niche of friends that work well together. From what I can gather, grouping works best when you have more players who are competant and skilled. I would have to say that one of the biggest reasons (I believe) for an mmo to have a huge "playing-style divide" is just like what you would find in a high school; nerds that talk to each other and nerds that hardly talk at all.

 

This is my first forum post by the way! Greetings everyone!

LasersGoPewPew - Cypion - Invictus[acad] - 40+ Cleric

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

3/03/12 10:09:53 PM#1338

The only reason I went to play WoW in the first place is because a bunch of friends wanted a place to go play together.  We all joined specifically so we could play as a group, nobody was supposed to play alone, nobody was supposed to play with anyone else, we all got together a couple of times a week for a couple of hours and played as a team.

That lasted about 2 months, then half the group got addicted and went off and played 24/7 and left the rest of us behind.  A lot of the rest of us got bored, some left, a couple of us stayed and played solo.  I had no interest whatsoever in playing with the majority of WoW zombies and it really didn't take too long until I gave up on the game and left forever.  It just wasn't that much fun.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  iLasers

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/02/12
Posts: 2

"A life lived in fear is a life half-lived."

3/07/12 3:29:27 PM#1339

I can relate. My wife was always asking what I was doing playing Fiesta online so much, so I decided to get her in. 

Now she spends every moment she can playing. I plvled her to level 20 as a nice gesture to get her started, the game doesn't really get interesting until then anyhow. She's always stretching to get a level up on me and frankly, people that have an addicting nature should NOT play mmo's. It's ridiculous. I thought I was a straight up nerd, but dang son. Unfortunately it's players like my wife and several others I know that gunk up and break down what's good in a game.

I try to tell her that we have things we need to be doing and its always 30 minutes later, "Wait a minute! Just let me go turn in these quests!" and 30 minutes later the same thing until its 6pm and we haven't done anything productive throughout the day whatsoever. 

I need to find an intervention group or something. Gee-wiz.

  Ikonoclastia

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/31/11
Posts: 184

3/19/12 7:10:49 PM#1340

I think there is plenty of room for both group and solo play.  I believe the majority of developers would like to be able to attract both styles of gamer to their games without those players conflicting and without trivializing content or making content too difficult.

I think there is a solution to the problem and I think that solution is based around time to acquire content.  

 

Imagine these two scenarios:

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Five players go into a dungeon and after 2 hours those players emerge with an item each of superior quality.

1 player spends a day (8 hours) solo questing and emerges with 1 item of superior quality.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This seems like a pretty reasonable and very simple compromise to the issue.  All items are available to all players regardless of style however time to acquire is much longer for solo players.  In the example above its 4 x longer. 

 

As most people familiar with competitive mmo's are aware, mmo's gearing tend not to be static, there is a continual and unfortunate demand for more content and better items and so last weeks uber bp is this weeks hand me down.  Because of this, the soloer who acquires gear at a slower rate will always be behind in gearing despite that gear being available.  The soloer will never have all the latest gear because in the time it takes for the soloer to get one item, the grouper has acquired 10 items.

 

One thing to remember, MMORPG stands for Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game - the word Cooperatively is not in there anywhere.  

 

I used to play EvE Online - As Infinity Ziona , I soloed exclusively, I created Privateers, a corporation of soloers and it eventually caused the nerfing of the war system in EvE.  Essentially Privateers took cooperative multiplayer tools (the corporation and the wardec system) and used it for solo play, used it so effectively that the cooperative players complained so much it was done away with.    My point is that solo players can and do affect the game world even when they're not sitting, flying, swimming next to you in warm fuzzy cooperative play. They're not playing 'with you' but they are playing with you.

 

 

 

 

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