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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The 'Group Play vs Solo Play in an MMO' Thread

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  dimasok

Novice Member

Joined: 2/04/12
Posts: 192

2/08/12 9:29:39 PM#1301
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by UsualSuspect
Originally posted by Cephus404

You are aware that AD&D started publishing solo modules pretty early on to cater to people who didn't want to play with others and still wanted to play AD&D, right?  That was one of the strengths of PnP RPGs, you could play the way you wanted to play, you were not forced to get a certain number of people together to make it work.

Maybe people wouldn't want to play solo so much if so much of the MMO-playing public weren't immature asshats.  I want nothing to do with the majority of idiots in most game worlds, people who can't spell, act like 2-year olds, have no clue about common decency and are ultimately in it to screw everyone else so they can get more loot.  And you want me to play with these asshats?

Forget it.

Yeah, I'm aware of the solo modules, but the main outpouring of AD&D modules have been made for groups of players to work through. Much like MMO's, they can be fun playing alone, but ultimately the best content comes from joining up with other people for adventures.

And sure there are immature asshats in MMO's, but on the flip side there are also some really cool people who are great to hang out with. To turn away from grouping because of a few bad experiences with groups is like saying you're never going to date again because the last girl broke your heart. People are different, while one might be a pain another might be awesome, while one girl might have broke your heart, another might be with you for life.

It's the way of the world. If we were all the same then the world would be a pretty boring place. Just remember the asshats and hang out with the nice people. It's common sense, really.

You're making a subjective call that the "best content" comes from grouping.  I entirely disagree.  I think that being self-sufficient and not having to rely on others to get through problems is far superior, especially if, as is far too often the case, there simply are not enough people playing MMOs that share my outlook.  Everyone is too busy being a gear-whore, rushing to max level.  I couldn't care less if it took me 5 years to max out my character.  I've done that before.  I have zero interest in endgame content, I retire every single character instantly when I hit max level.

The problem with comparing PnP and MMO players is they are entirely different experiences.  Most PnP groups were hand picked.  They met on a regular schedule.  There was very little pick-up gaming going on, outside of conventions and the like.  You knew who you were playing with, you had a long relationship and you knew that everyone thought along similar lines and had similar goals.  I had a PnP group that played together for more than 15 years.  We never had to worry about some retard ninja looting or killing the entire party out of stupidity.  That's not usually the case in MMOs, where the most common group is a PUG, where people come together to do something, then go their separate ways.   Sure, you might occasionally find someone worthwhile, but if you have to dig through hundreds of shitbags to get there, is it really worth it?

I reserve the real world for hanging out with nice people.  Online, where mature, intelligent, rational people who aren't in a rush to get to end game are a real rarity, forget it.  It's just a frustration I choose not to engage in.

I respect your words... but the experience you described is exactly the type of expeience I had myself while playing any MMO... its really tough to find people who will be there for you, just like in the real world...

  UsualSuspect

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/01/04
Posts: 1213

2/09/12 1:33:23 AM#1302
Originally posted by Cephus404

You're making a subjective call that the "best content" comes from grouping.  I entirely disagree.  I think that being self-sufficient and not having to rely on others to get through problems is far superior, especially if, as is far too often the case, there simply are not enough people playing MMOs that share my outlook.  Everyone is too busy being a gear-whore, rushing to max level.  I couldn't care less if it took me 5 years to max out my character.  I've done that before.  I have zero interest in endgame content, I retire every single character instantly when I hit max level.

The problem with comparing PnP and MMO players is they are entirely different experiences.  Most PnP groups were hand picked.  They met on a regular schedule.  There was very little pick-up gaming going on, outside of conventions and the like.  You knew who you were playing with, you had a long relationship and you knew that everyone thought along similar lines and had similar goals.  I had a PnP group that played together for more than 15 years.  We never had to worry about some retard ninja looting or killing the entire party out of stupidity.  That's not usually the case in MMOs, where the most common group is a PUG, where people come together to do something, then go their separate ways.   Sure, you might occasionally find someone worthwhile, but if you have to dig through hundreds of shitbags to get there, is it really worth it?

I reserve the real world for hanging out with nice people.  Online, where mature, intelligent, rational people who aren't in a rush to get to end game are a real rarity, forget it.  It's just a frustration I choose not to engage in.

You contradict yourself a little there, you say being self-sufficient is far superior, then go on to say you were with a PnP group for 15 years, so obviously realise the benefits of having a team with you. Unless you always played the Lone Wolf character in those PnP games and went off to do your own thing half the time.

It sounds to me like you've had a bad experience with some groups that have tainted your view of things. I'd guess this happened in WoW, as I played that game and everything you describe is exactly what I found too. World of Warcraft had possibly the worst community I've ever experienced, and I only experienced it for 30 or so levels before quitting, so I pity the people who stayed there for the long haul.

Most MMO's I've been to aren't like that though, even in the solo-centric SWTOR I almost always had nice groups. They never stuck together after completing the flashpoint or group quest, but that was the nature of the game, it being solo based, but at least the people were cool. The same with LOTRO, though I'm not sure how it is more recently as that too has become solo based and being F2P inevitably brings in a bad crowd.

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3604

2/09/12 9:21:23 AM#1303
Originally posted by UsualSuspect
Originally posted by Cephus404

You're making a subjective call that the "best content" comes from grouping.  I entirely disagree.  I think that being self-sufficient and not having to rely on others to get through problems is far superior, especially if, as is far too often the case, there simply are not enough people playing MMOs that share my outlook.  Everyone is too busy being a gear-whore, rushing to max level.  I couldn't care less if it took me 5 years to max out my character.  I've done that before.  I have zero interest in endgame content, I retire every single character instantly when I hit max level.

The problem with comparing PnP and MMO players is they are entirely different experiences.  Most PnP groups were hand picked.  They met on a regular schedule.  There was very little pick-up gaming going on, outside of conventions and the like.  You knew who you were playing with, you had a long relationship and you knew that everyone thought along similar lines and had similar goals.  I had a PnP group that played together for more than 15 years.  We never had to worry about some retard ninja looting or killing the entire party out of stupidity.  That's not usually the case in MMOs, where the most common group is a PUG, where people come together to do something, then go their separate ways.   Sure, you might occasionally find someone worthwhile, but if you have to dig through hundreds of shitbags to get there, is it really worth it?

I reserve the real world for hanging out with nice people.  Online, where mature, intelligent, rational people who aren't in a rush to get to end game are a real rarity, forget it.  It's just a frustration I choose not to engage in.

You contradict yourself a little there, you say being self-sufficient is far superior, then go on to say you were with a PnP group for 15 years, so obviously realise the benefits of having a team with you. Unless you always played the Lone Wolf character in those PnP games and went off to do your own thing half the time.

It sounds to me like you've had a bad experience with some groups that have tainted your view of things. I'd guess this happened in WoW, as I played that game and everything you describe is exactly what I found too. World of Warcraft had possibly the worst community I've ever experienced, and I only experienced it for 30 or so levels before quitting, so I pity the people who stayed there for the long haul.

Most MMO's I've been to aren't like that though, even in the solo-centric SWTOR I almost always had nice groups. They never stuck together after completing the flashpoint or group quest, but that was the nature of the game, it being solo based, but at least the people were cool. The same with LOTRO, though I'm not sure how it is more recently as that too has become solo based and being F2P inevitably brings in a bad crowd.

Actually, it wasn't WoW, since I only played WoW with RL friends and never really bothered with the awful community they had there otherwise.  It was most other games that likewise had immature communities, LORTRO included.  Everyone is in a rush to cap.  That's a bad community IMO.

And no, I didn't contradict myself, I said that MMOs and PnP RPGs are two entirely different experiences.  PnP RPGs do have good communities by definition because you have a static group that you know works well together.  You don't have that in an MMO.  Further, because of the standard mechanics in an MMO, most people who group constantly do play a relatively weak character because they only have to focus on a specific mechanic.  If you're a tank, you don't have to do anything but tank.  Someone else will take care of healing you.  If forced out on their own, a tank becomes virtually useless because they cannot handle more than tanking and will quickly die because someone isn't constantly healing them.  I much prefer playing a well-rounded character in an MMO that can do everything.  Maybe it's not as strong as a dedicated tank, maybe it can't heal as well as a dedicated healer, but it can stand it's ground better than either of them.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  UsualSuspect

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/01/04
Posts: 1213

2/09/12 12:14:11 PM#1304
Originally posted by Cephus404

Actually, it wasn't WoW, since I only played WoW with RL friends and never really bothered with the awful community they had there otherwise.  It was most other games that likewise had immature communities, LORTRO included.  Everyone is in a rush to cap.  That's a bad community IMO.

And no, I didn't contradict myself, I said that MMOs and PnP RPGs are two entirely different experiences.  PnP RPGs do have good communities by definition because you have a static group that you know works well together.  You don't have that in an MMO.  Further, because of the standard mechanics in an MMO, most people who group constantly do play a relatively weak character because they only have to focus on a specific mechanic.  If you're a tank, you don't have to do anything but tank.  Someone else will take care of healing you.  If forced out on their own, a tank becomes virtually useless because they cannot handle more than tanking and will quickly die because someone isn't constantly healing them.  I much prefer playing a well-rounded character in an MMO that can do everything.  Maybe it's not as strong as a dedicated tank, maybe it can't heal as well as a dedicated healer, but it can stand it's ground better than either of them.

The thing is, that type of character is only really going to be found in a single player game rather than an MMO. MMO's generally go with the trinity or close to it, so no one person can do everything. The MMO's where that sort of character can 'kinda' be built generally have a solo style, which - in my eyes at least, I know you disagree - are pretty much like single player games anyway.

I don't think everyone is in a rush to cap, I think people just want to do whatever content there is. If they can get to cap in a rush then that's a problem with the games design, not the players. Take original EQ as an example, there was almost no way of rushing through that game, it took months to get to max level and that's if you played a LOT every day. And so you found that groups were more laid back, they'd chat, they'd have fun, they'd move around from location to location or camp at one spot and just chill while bashing mobs. There was no rush as there was a certain inevitability to it, that max level is a long way off so you might as well just enjoy the ride.

More modern MMO's that have appeared off the back of WoW seem to increase the feeling of 'rushing' due to their design. Levels come fast, you move quickly from quest to quest, combat is a spam of button presses (EQ was a lot slower paced), conversation is almost non existant because your fingers are too busy attacking - it's like playing a game while overdosing on coffee. It's no wonder it feels like a rush.

Those rushing games breed that sort of community, as everyone are like hyperactive hamsters running at top speed in their little hamster wheel.

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3604

2/09/12 11:25:29 PM#1305
Originally posted by UsualSuspect

The thing is, that type of character is only really going to be found in a single player game rather than an MMO. MMO's generally go with the trinity or close to it, so no one person can do everything. The MMO's where that sort of character can 'kinda' be built generally have a solo style, which - in my eyes at least, I know you disagree - are pretty much like single player games anyway.

The problem with the trinity is that everyone has to build their characters to fit with the trinity, which limits individuality.  Everyone has to be functionally identical with very little variation so they can jump into any group.  Where's the fun if everyone is a cookie cutter of everyone else?  At least soloing, you don't ahve to rely on any specific tactics,  you cau build your characters the way you want to because you don't have to rely in trinity mechanics.  If you want to do more damage, go ahead.  If you want to be a more effective tank or a better healer, go ahead.  It's up to you.

I don't think everyone is in a rush to cap, I think people just want to do whatever content there is. If they can get to cap in a rush then that's a problem with the games design, not the players. Take original EQ as an example, there was almost no way of rushing through that game, it took months to get to max level and that's if you played a LOT every day. And so you found that groups were more laid back, they'd chat, they'd have fun, they'd move around from location to location or camp at one spot and just chill while bashing mobs. There was no rush as there was a certain inevitability to it, that max level is a long way off so you might as well just enjoy the ride.

I can't tell you how many groups I've been in where I was trying to open chests and loot bodies and they were all racing down the hall to the next kill.  I want to take my time, loot 100% of the bodies, look at the surroundings, etc.  In games like Anarchy Online, where there are generic quests, groups grab 8-10 at a time and race through them over and over to gain experience.  Or, they camp high-value areas, moving from one mob to the next so they can get 4-5 levels per hour.  That's all they do.  They don't loot.  They just leave everything laying there and race to the next kill.  That's just no fun for me.

More modern MMO's that have appeared off the back of WoW seem to increase the feeling of 'rushing' due to their design. Levels come fast, you move quickly from quest to quest, combat is a spam of button presses (EQ was a lot slower paced), conversation is almost non existant because your fingers are too busy attacking - it's like playing a game while overdosing on coffee. It's no wonder it feels like a rush.

EQ was, at least back in the day, a bit slower paced, but EQ is a dinosaur and nobody is interested in making another game like it, simply because it wouldn't make any money.  That's fine, I have no problem with that and EQ had a ton of other issues.  Honestly, I don't think EQ is immune to those problems today because the majority of problems come not from the game necessarily, but from the fact that MMOs are mainstream and draw a mainstream audience.  Instead of the majority of players being intelligent, college-educated people like they used to be, they're spastic idiots with entitlement issues.  I can't say I have any interest whatsoever in playing with any of them.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  MosesZD

Novice Member

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1407

2/12/12 10:55:15 AM#1306
Originally posted by Hyanmen
Originally posted by DiSpLiFF

 i'll say what i've said before, I personally think WoW did it best. Theres group play and solo play, but you won't get nearly as good quality gear just by soloing. I would never play a game that forced me to group 24/7, on the other hand i'd never play an mmo that was just solo play. Of course i'm a casual player (i guess? 2 hours a day) sometimes I don't have an hour to wait to join  a group i'll probably leave 40 mins into it. 

 

WoW did it in the worst possible way.

lol.   Considering it caters to both ends of the spectrum....   That it is exactly what  what I look for in any MMO -- the ability to do both because sometimes I'm not interested in gaming with people like you...    And the people I am interested in gaming with aren't on...  

They hit the sweet spot...     Your mates aren't on... Great, you can solo something.   Your mates are on, great you can do something together...

So while I don't play WoW (I hate its graphics), I respect what Blizzard has done...    And there are a lot of MMOs that have failed to hold my interest because one of the two poles in the realm of possible gameplay was total crap...    Like SWTOR... 

  MosesZD

Novice Member

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1407

2/12/12 11:08:06 AM#1307
Originally posted by Cephus404

Actually, it wasn't WoW, since I only played WoW with RL friends and never really bothered with the awful community they had there otherwise.  It was most other games that likewise had immature communities, LORTRO included.  Everyone is in a rush to cap.  That's a bad community IMO.

And no, I didn't contradict myself, I said that MMOs and PnP RPGs are two entirely different experiences.  PnP RPGs do have good communities by definition because you have a static group that you know works well together.  You don't have that in an MMO.  Further, because of the standard mechanics in an MMO, most people who group constantly do play a relatively weak character because they only have to focus on a specific mechanic.  If you're a tank, you don't have to do anything but tank.  Someone else will take care of healing you.  If forced out on their own, a tank becomes virtually useless because they cannot handle more than tanking and will quickly die because someone isn't constantly healing them.  I much prefer playing a well-rounded character in an MMO that can do everything.  Maybe it's not as strong as a dedicated tank, maybe it can't heal as well as a dedicated healer, but it can stand it's ground better than either of them.

Oh please.  I get so sick and tired of this 'immature communities' garbage that's been screamed at since first-generation MMOs like Ulitma Online first started...  

 

Here's the deal, any game that has more than 500 subscribers has a 98% chance of being a statistically average slice of the MMO community at large.   By the time you get into the low thousands, it is an average slice of the MMO community at large.   You get  to 500K subscribers and there isn't an atom's worth of difference between the communities because games that large ARE the MMO community at large.   And it doesn't matter the game -- SWTOR players are no more mature than WoW players or Rift players or LotRO players or DDO players or Aion players...    

 

And in most cases, they are the same people...   In every one of those games I've met people from those other games...  And they all say the same stupid stuff...  "This game is so much more mature than XXXXX game..."    Idiot groups of SWTOR players right now are looking down their noses and point fingers at WoW players....   Idiot groups of WoW players look down their noses and point fingers at SWTOR players...

 

Bottom line is, some people are mature, some people are jerks...   And no matter the game, you have ninja looters, kill stealers, tappers, grinders, role-players, jerks in chat, bigots, clowns, incompetents, fanboys, raid boys, pvp boys,  rush-to-cap, enjoy-teh-story, crafters, social gamers, leet-power-gamers, etc., etc., etc., in every game WoW or not-WoW.  

 

And to pretend otherwise is just kidding yourself.

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3604

2/12/12 5:34:13 PM#1308
Originally posted by MosesZD

Oh please.  I get so sick and tired of this 'immature communities' garbage that's been screamed at since first-generation MMOs like Ulitma Online first started...  

 

Here's the deal, any game that has more than 500 subscribers has a 98% chance of being a statistically average slice of the MMO community at large.   By the time you get into the low thousands, it is an average slice of the MMO community at large.   You get  to 500K subscribers and there isn't an atom's worth of difference between the communities because games that large ARE the MMO community at large.   And it doesn't matter the game -- SWTOR players are no more mature than WoW players or Rift players or LotRO players or DDO players or Aion players...    

 

And in most cases, they are the same people...   In every one of those games I've met people from those other games...  And they all say the same stupid stuff...  "This game is so much more mature than XXXXX game..."    Idiot groups of SWTOR players right now are looking down their noses and point fingers at WoW players....   Idiot groups of WoW players look down their noses and point fingers at SWTOR players...

 

Bottom line is, some people are mature, some people are jerks...   And no matter the game, you have ninja looters, kill stealers, tappers, grinders, role-players, jerks in chat, bigots, clowns, incompetents, fanboys, raid boys, pvp boys,  rush-to-cap, enjoy-teh-story, crafters, social gamers, leet-power-gamers, etc., etc., etc., in every game WoW or not-WoW.  

 

And to pretend otherwise is just kidding yourself.

I never mentioned any games in particular, I am talking about the MMO community in general and in general, I think they are immature and self-centered, regardless of whatever game you're talking about.  I'm saying that in general terms, these are not people I want to spend my time with.

I'm not kidding myself, that was the point I was making in the first place.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

2/12/12 11:50:37 PM#1309
Originally posted by Antarious
Originally posted by Adalwulff

I'll never understand why players are so crazy about soloing an MMO, many of them want to solo the entire game. It makes no sense to me, and I have heard all of the arguements over the years.

I've come to one conclusion, those players are SELFISH!!

None of thier arguements make any sense, they call them MMO's for a reason, otherwise they would be MSO's. These selfish players love to ruin games for personal reasons, I have seen them on forums complaining so much that devs cave in, only to have the same players leave anyway, becaues the game was too hard, and they couldnt get finish the whole game without help.

If you try to direct them to some awsome single player games out there, and there are LOTS of good ones, they scream and cry, not caring at all about other players.

Soloers are the scourge of MMO's and I cant stand them. Its no coincidence that most of these soloers are the same hardcore pvp crowd looking for ffa full loot, the rest of them are loners who like to grind pve mobs all by themselves... all day long.

I wish they would go away!!!

 

That's some serious logic there.

 

Earth has over 4 billion people living on it.   That's pretty massive don't you think?   Do you think people do things on their own in real life?   Or do you think they form raids to use the bathroom?   One to hold the toilet paper... one to turn on the fan.. another support class to turn on the light... at least two to hold the newspaper and turn the pages...

 

Why exactly do you think MMO means anything about grouping?

 

I solo time to time.   I've never wanted to be able to solo everything.   I mean heck just because dragon slayers in folk lore pretty much were always solo.. and one of them was even a child... I don't think I should be able to solo dragons in a fantasy game where I am supposedly more heroic than in real life.   Yet I don't really want to be in a group of 6 to 8 people... just to kill oh I dunno... rats or something else that is obviously dangerous... its not like a rabbit with giant fangs.. I could see grouping for that or at least a hand grenade of the holy type.

 

Even without my crystal ball I know I wouldn't group with you... just to be clear.

No, the flaw is you. Your comparing apples and oranges. In fact your analogies are very strange.

Then you compare a grouping scenerio with a typical low level quest like killing a few rats, something that is obviously  a solo quest because its for low level characters, in starting areas... duh!! My post may have lack some details, but I feel most people reading these boards know what I mean.

Whole games are now being designed around soloers, then group play is added later on, stuff like raids and battlegrounds. Thats one of my main peevs, like I said in my original post, the devs are caving in to this very vocal crowd and MMO's are turning into MSO's.

Look at WoW, WAR and STO, you can solo all the way to end game. Even games like DDO and LOTR can be almost entirely soloed. That is just nuts, because the lore behind DDO and LOTR is ALL about adventuring with parties.

The PvP has suffered for it too, we use to have many games where world PvP was excellent, DAOC and Asheron's Call, just to name two, now you cant find it anywhere. Those games still had some solo content as well, but it wasnt enough for you guys, you had to have the whole damn game.

Why dont you just admit it, what you really want, is a single player game with a BIG chat room, because your lonely.

  SpliceMain

Novice Member

Joined: 7/15/10
Posts: 14

2/13/12 4:27:04 PM#1310
The more I can do solo in any mmo, the better.  I have an entire life of relationships and responsibilities and friends and co-workers, etc. Doing some group content is fine occasionally and I believe that it must be designed for groups to be decent. RL can never just be all about me and I wouldn’t want it to be. But online, oh yeah, it’s mostly about me. And no, a single player game isn’t the same. Being among others is good in an mmo. I randomly help stangers all the time.  Kinda like the Lone Ranger sans Tanto.  What I seek is an experience pretty much devoid of responsibilities.
 
Raid schedules are right out for me as I already have a job. Besides, I let RL activities trump my online play all the time. If the wife asks "Wanna do dinner and a movie?" I'm out the door and my guild appearence gets cancelled.  Guilds are OK until members get demanding as they inevitably will. Fail to run enough instances with people who can’t bear to play alone for even 10 minutes and you soon get a rep for being unhelpful, as if I log on to be at anyone’s beck and call.
 
And another thing. I will never understand the whole “hanging out” thing. I hang out in RL with friends but never in an MMO. When I played WoW people would hang out in Orgrimar for hours doing nothing but flooding trade chat. What a lousy way to spend time! I log to play damn it!  OK, if some like it, more power to them.  I still think it's weird though.  I have no intention of chatting about my RL and have no desire to hear anyone’s problems. Or even their triumphs such as new jobs or children stories. Guild chat was full of this sort of thing. Turn guild chat off and you become any enemy of the state. I don’t want a new friend for life online! For me, other online players can never ever be real friends because they are strangers pure and simple. I treat people the same way in an mmo as I do in the grocery store. I’m pleasant and might even chat while in line but no relationships will begin there. I do my shopping and I get out. In an mmo I play and log off. The last thing I want from an mmo is someone or some gang who expects me to tank or heal for them on a regular basis.
 
As a paying solo player of any mmo, I expect access to the same level of gear as anyone else can get. Regardless of whether I pvp, raid or solo. Don’t tell me the best stuff should be found only in raid instances. It should make no difference to anyone what sort of gear any player gets or if they soloed it. The end game content should be reward enough for those who want to do it.  I concede that good group content must be tailored.  But that fact has nothing whatsoever to do with rewards.       
 
  UsualSuspect

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/01/04
Posts: 1213

2/14/12 1:21:44 AM#1311
Originally posted by SpliceMain
The more I can do solo in any mmo, the better.  I have an entire life of relationships and responsibilities and friends and co-workers, etc. Doing some group content is fine occasionally and I believe that it must be designed for groups to be decent. RL can never just be all about me and I wouldn’t want it to be. But online, oh yeah, it’s mostly about me. And no, a single player game isn’t the same. Being among others is good in an mmo. I randomly help stangers all the time.  Kinda like the Lone Ranger sans Tanto.  What I seek is an experience pretty much devoid of responsibilities.
 
Raid schedules are right out for me as I already have a job. Besides, I let RL activities trump my online play all the time. If the wife asks "Wanna do dinner and a movie?" I'm out the door and my guild appearence gets cancelled.  Guilds are OK until members get demanding as they inevitably will. Fail to run enough instances with people who can’t bear to play alone for even 10 minutes and you soon get a rep for being unhelpful, as if I log on to be at anyone’s beck and call.
 
And another thing. I will never understand the whole “hanging out” thing. I hang out in RL with friends but never in an MMO. When I played WoW people would hang out in Orgrimar for hours doing nothing but flooding trade chat. What a lousy way to spend time! I log to play damn it!  OK, if some like it, more power to them.  I still think it's weird though.  I have no intention of chatting about my RL and have no desire to hear anyone’s problems. Or even their triumphs such as new jobs or children stories. Guild chat was full of this sort of thing. Turn guild chat off and you become any enemy of the state. I don’t want a new friend for life online! For me, other online players can never ever be real friends because they are strangers pure and simple. I treat people the same way in an mmo as I do in the grocery store. I’m pleasant and might even chat while in line but no relationships will begin there. I do my shopping and I get out. In an mmo I play and log off. The last thing I want from an mmo is someone or some gang who expects me to tank or heal for them on a regular basis.
 
As a paying solo player of any mmo, I expect access to the same level of gear as anyone else can get. Regardless of whether I pvp, raid or solo. Don’t tell me the best stuff should be found only in raid instances. It should make no difference to anyone what sort of gear any player gets or if they soloed it. The end game content should be reward enough for those who want to do it.  I concede that good group content must be tailored.  But that fact has nothing whatsoever to do with rewards.       
 

You ever think that the people who want to do all the things that you don't want to do in an MMO, is the reason you like being inside an MMO? They're the ones who bring the chat channels alive, they're the ones who you can watch from a distance, they're the ones who make your guild an active one, they're the people who have sparked up friendships and you see chatting all the time..

See, when everyone in an MMO is soloing then all that disappears, if people don't need each other then you get a lot of silence. Spend a couple of days in SWTOR and you'll see what I mean, whole planets are like ghost towns. If that's the pinnacle of solo-centric gameplay then you can keep it. Give me a true group based MMO any time.

  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

2/14/12 10:09:08 AM#1312
Originally posted by SpliceMain
The more I can do solo in any mmo, the better.  I have an entire life of relationships and responsibilities and friends and co-workers, etc. Doing some group content is fine occasionally and I believe that it must be designed for groups to be decent. RL can never just be all about me and I wouldn’t want it to be. But online, oh yeah, it’s mostly about me. And no, a single player game isn’t the same. Being among others is good in an mmo. I randomly help stangers all the time.  Kinda like the Lone Ranger sans Tanto.  What I seek is an experience pretty much devoid of responsibilities.
 
Raid schedules are right out for me as I already have a job. Besides, I let RL activities trump my online play all the time. If the wife asks "Wanna do dinner and a movie?" I'm out the door and my guild appearence gets cancelled.  Guilds are OK until members get demanding as they inevitably will. Fail to run enough instances with people who can’t bear to play alone for even 10 minutes and you soon get a rep for being unhelpful, as if I log on to be at anyone’s beck and call.
 
And another thing. I will never understand the whole “hanging out” thing. I hang out in RL with friends but never in an MMO. When I played WoW people would hang out in Orgrimar for hours doing nothing but flooding trade chat. What a lousy way to spend time! I log to play damn it!  OK, if some like it, more power to them.  I still think it's weird though.  I have no intention of chatting about my RL and have no desire to hear anyone’s problems. Or even their triumphs such as new jobs or children stories. Guild chat was full of this sort of thing. Turn guild chat off and you become any enemy of the state. I don’t want a new friend for life online! For me, other online players can never ever be real friends because they are strangers pure and simple. I treat people the same way in an mmo as I do in the grocery store. I’m pleasant and might even chat while in line but no relationships will begin there. I do my shopping and I get out. In an mmo I play and log off. The last thing I want from an mmo is someone or some gang who expects me to tank or heal for them on a regular basis.
 
As a paying solo player of any mmo, I expect access to the same level of gear as anyone else can get. Regardless of whether I pvp, raid or solo. Don’t tell me the best stuff should be found only in raid instances. It should make no difference to anyone what sort of gear any player gets or if they soloed it. The end game content should be reward enough for those who want to do it.  I concede that good group content must be tailored.  But that fact has nothing whatsoever to do with rewards.       
 

 

This is a tired arguement and full of selfishness.

Everytime someone brings up grouping, you see this argument, like we are lonely desperate people who need someone to talk too, and we dont want you to ever log off, please dont go out with your wife!!! pleaseeee!!!!!!!! LOL... seriously, it's the worst strawman arguement, becaues it's very demeaning.

When I group, I usually dont talk much about RL, and I am certainly NOT hanging out. I'm playing a GROUP based game, hacking and slashing my way around the game world. The dynamics work very much like being on a sports team, you can do more as a group, and it should be that way.

Your arguement reeks of that selfish attitude I have talked about a lot here. You see grouping as a "responsibility", which is just dumb. You join a guild, and then get annoyed when they want to game with you, or talk to you! (gasp!). When you log in and someone wants to group with you, its like being at thier "beck and call"?? I really dont understand how you can think that. Why even join a guild, why even play an MMO, why not play Skrym or something. Do you like torturing yourself???

Then to wrap it all up, you want access to all the same gear and items that any group can get, only you want to do it solo. Selfish, selfish, selfish! This is why so many games are solo friendly all the way up to end game, there are no more grouping mechanics outside of raiding. And I blame players like you.

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3604

2/14/12 11:46:51 AM#1313
Originally posted by Adalwulff

Why dont you just admit it, what you really want, is a single player game with a BIG chat room, because your lonely.

Since I turn chat off, that's wrong.  I don't want a chat room.  I want a living, growing world that is ever-changing, where I can, if I choose, play with other people or talk to other people, but I'm not forced to.  Virtually no single player games can offer that.  That's what most MMO players want and since that's where most of the money in the MMO  genre comes from, of course that's who is going to get catered to.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  UsualSuspect

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/01/04
Posts: 1213

2/14/12 12:50:57 PM#1314
Originally posted by Cephus404

Since I turn chat off, that's wrong.  I don't want a chat room.  I want a living, growing world that is ever-changing, where I can, if I choose, play with other people or talk to other people, but I'm not forced to.  Virtually no single player games can offer that.  That's what most MMO players want and since that's where most of the money in the MMO  genre comes from, of course that's who is going to get catered to.

I don't think you'll see those two things in an MMO, unless developers can stop themselves following this whole themepark design. You will never see a living, growing, ever-changing world in a themepark. It's all static mobs, static quests, instanced zones, etc. Also, themeparks cater more to the solo player until end game, which confuses the heck out of me, talk about confusing priorities there. So in most themeparks you're not going to be able to choose to play with other people.. well, you can choose to play with them, but they also make the same choice and 9 times out of 10 the solo player will be doing exactly that. Soloing.

So with that said, you're actually looking for a sandbox game with group content that you want to be able to solo. Good luck finding that one! Oh, and if you do, drop me a line, I'll come join you.

  SpliceMain

Novice Member

Joined: 7/15/10
Posts: 14

2/14/12 1:54:07 PM#1315
Usual S, having other people around is a great reason to play MMOs of course.  I do interact with others.  Especially via the auction house (which I bet you disapprove of if for no other reason than it encourages certain solo player types).  But no, chat channels filled with personal stuff that is no concern of mine bugs me.  I enter the MMO world to play the game not to extend my social life (Even saying “MMO” and “social life” in the same sentence gives me the creeps but I know this is not so for many.) 
 
We want radically different experiences.  Silence is no deterrent to me at all.  If I’m playing a game I don’t need to be talking because I’m concentrating on what I’m doing.  In fact, I find the solitude refreshing.  MMO worlds are generally far larger than solo game worlds providing many quiet places to escape from the wacky cities with their revolting chatter.  I play MMOs months after the release of new content with the expressed intent to miss the teaming masses as they move through new areas.      
 
You want challenges that require a group to overcome.  I appreciate that and accept that the content needs to be built with that sort of difficulty in mind.  But it also sounds like challenging content isn’t all you desire.  You want pals and buddies and relationships too.   Perhaps you like the theory crafting and tactics and such as well.  Are you a guild leader/officer type?  Some players need to be the boss to have what for them is an optimal experience.  There’s nothing wrong with that.  Groups need to have structure.  Most leaders know that they need to have loot conscripts to reinforce their groups.  I know it would be best for you to have content loving, jovial “Ain’t we all having fun!” players all the time who are not loot motivated but you seem to know that COMPULTION is in fact required for you to get the numbers you need on a regular basis.  These numbers can be guaranteed by inhibiting the best loot and thus creating the good old “Only groups get the best loot” deal.  This is where my complaint concerning group content is grounded.  It isn’t with group dynamics per se.  It’s that crafting materials and other loot often get placed where I can never see them without being a card carrying guild/fellowship/ Teamster Union member complete with 5 hour schedules and regular meetings.  Ay caramba!     
 
Adalwullf,  you sound angry old bean!  No cause for that.  Am I selfish indeed?  I think not.  Are you such an altruist that you sublimate yourself a collective whenever you play an MMO?  I doubt it.  You don’t chat about RL much?  Me neither.  But plenty of folks do.  You don’t whine for help with the simplest of quests when all you really want is a chat buddy for company?  Plenty of folks do that, too.  My comment about going out with the wife was an attempt to illustrate my point about the evils (for me) of raid schedules.  The content is such that you NEED such schedules to get the damn things accomplished.  Cancel your raid sign ups repeatedly and see how often you EVER get to raid.  This is fact of life in MMOs, chief.  I can’t do it and don’t want to.  That doesn’t make me selfish.  It makes me a realist who doesn’t care to disappoint other players.  You don’t think grouping is a responsibility when you are in a raid guild?  What games have you played?  If you are the main tank, geared in large part by the efforts of your guild, and you don’t show up on raid night, there will be trouble.  This is not “just dumb”.   It is a “RESPONSIBILTY”.   You need to be there or you hurt the team.  I eschew this responsibility in the interests of being independent, self-reliant and carefree.  So sue me.  I have assisted guildies on countless occasions.  But when some players (and every large guild has them) expect you do stop whatever you are doing whenever they want company, yes, I feel like they see me as being at their beck and call.  I am not.  Sue me again.  All of these experiences of mine are true many times over.  I won’t pretend to know what your experiences have been but apparently no one in your guilds have been very demanding.  I don’t play with any RL friends so perhaps that makes a big difference.      
 
I don’t want or expect to do group content solo.  I do expect gear that is as powerful as any in the game to be craft-able or some other way within my grasp.   If there are no grouping mechanics outside of raiding, how is that my fault?  Because I don’t’ want to do them?  (I actually would be interested in sensible pick up style group world events)  Now who is selfish?  Who’s the one bemoaning the majority getting what they seem to want, as Cephus points out?  You group centric people already have the whole enchilada in as much as you can get any gear and see all content.    
  
Different server types can be the answer.  I don’t know why there can’t be group content servers where the entire non-instanced world is too dangerous to be alone in.  There could also be servers where anyone can get any gear be any means.  The games themselves would not need to change that much.                        
        
  Thorbrand

Novice Member

Joined: 3/06/04
Posts: 1217

2/14/12 1:57:37 PM#1316

MMOs should be 90% group content.

If I want to solo play I play a solo game. Interesting how that works.

  darkhalf357x

Elite Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 1086

I'm only playing the role chosen for me. Who you supposed to be?

2/14/12 7:30:10 PM#1317

MMOs should be flexible and cater to both types of content.  Both for group and for solo.  One is not more important than the other. MMO is not synonomous with grouping but an aspect of it.  I like to solo but also enjoy the community of a game, perhaps buying merchandise from another player who is a crafter.  

I am in complete agreement with SpliceMan.  I dont play MMOs for social interaction and grouping, I play MMOs for their dynamic worlds and ever expanding content.  Its fustrating when you can't do a particular dungeon because you need four people to do it.  Im not saying remove that requirement Im saying add the flexibility of allowing me to do it alone, let me challenge myself.  Why is choice so difficult to accept.

 

  Zorgo

Elite Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2191

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

2/14/12 8:01:50 PM#1318
Originally posted by Thorbrand

MMOs should be 90% group content.

If I want to solo play I play a solo game. Interesting how that works.

The problem with only playing group oriented games, I've found, is that you become limited only to the newest games or oldest games.

What I mean is, if you want to play, say Everquest starting a lvl 1 toon right now, it would be relatively impossible to find groups to help you with all the group combat. You can play EQ as intended, just as long as you have a max lvl toon in a guild and your gear is approximate to those who play regularly. If you are lucky in EQ you will have rl friends with max lvl toons who will pl you through all that group content, but I hardly call that 'grouping'. So EQ, unarguably a grouping game = fine for max toons who have spent years in the game, impossible for a new player.

So, the other alternative is to play a game in its first year of release, and play it at the median curve of everyone else (and 17 year olds level quick), so that there are always plenty of people your lvl lfg. But after that first year, and now its more like within the first 6 months, the mass of the population is passed the group content and there you are stuck at a lvl 18 newbie dungeon /shouting LFG. God help you if you are dps lfg and not a tank or healer in that situation.

In rl, I have a job that takes me away from my comp for weeks or months. It is relatively impossible for me to stay with the lvling herd. I come back home and my friends are max lvl. So I sit there /shouting LFG for hours and hours while they raid and adventure. The game may be 90% grouping - but is that how I am spending 90% of my time in the game? Nope, the game that is 90% grouping, means you will spend 90% of your time trying to get that group together - if you are behind the level curve.

On those nights it is hard for me to stomach 90% of the content being for groups, when I paid the same for my box and the same for my sub - the content should be made to cater to all our play styles. So, in the absence of being able to find  a group for the lvl 25 dungeon in a game that's 3 years old, I'd like some solo content please, so I can max my toon and actually get to play with groups. Which, imo, isn't necessarily 90% of the content, but should be 90% of the fun.

  Four0Six

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/18/11
Posts: 1069

2/14/12 8:04:50 PM#1319
Originally posted by UsualSuspect
 

So with that said, you're actually looking for a sandbox game with group content that you want to be able to solo. Good luck finding that one! Oh, and if you do, drop me a line, I'll come join you.

Tired City of Heros/Villians/Going Rogue?

  UsualSuspect

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/01/04
Posts: 1213

2/15/12 1:47:12 AM#1320
Originally posted by SpliceMain
Usual S, having other people around is a great reason to play MMOs of course.  I do interact with others.  Especially via the auction house (which I bet you disapprove of if for no other reason than it encourages certain solo player types).  But no, chat channels filled with personal stuff that is no concern of mine bugs me.  I enter the MMO world to play the game not to extend my social life (Even saying “MMO” and “social life” in the same sentence gives me the creeps but I know this is not so for many.) 
 
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Different server types can be the answer.  I don’t know why there can’t be group content servers where the entire non-instanced world is too dangerous to be alone in.  There could also be servers where anyone can get any gear be any means.  The games themselves would not need to change that much.                        
        

You have a weird opinion of MMO's, as if they're some massive social club where the soloer sits on the sidelines watching people interact, while grumbling about not wanting to join in. At its most basic level, an MMO is no different to a game like Counterstrike. People log on to the server, chat, shoot each other, have a laugh, log out again. The only difference with MMO's is that instead of shooting each other you're fighting computer controlled mobs, instead of the game being in short turns, it's a persistent world, instead of clans you get guilds. That's all it boils down to. Everything else is generated by the players with only the tools put in place by the developers.

This is the thing that confuses me, why people seem to think that soloing should be a large part of MMO's. As I said, at its most basic level an MMO is a multiplayer game akin to Counterstrike, hell the multiplayer is in the description, "Massively Multiplayer", so why people expect to be able to solo every aspect of the game is just mind boggling. It goes against the core design. That's the problem with a lot of the newly released MMO's, they're catering to the solo crowd, and as can be seen, none of them are holding subscribers for long. People don't really want an online single player game, especially one they have to pay monthly for. Argue if you like but the subscription numbers say otherwise.

That said, MMO's do need a part that is soloable, even in Counterstrike you could run around on your own shooting people. If you were facing an organized team, of course, you'd last 10 seconds at best, but on a random server it was pretty much a free for all and you could mostly get away with it. But at its core, an MMO is a multiplayer game and needs to focus more on that side of the gameplay than worrying about Joe from Kansas who wants to be able to solo Boss Mob #1657.

Which brings me to your other point about the gear in game being available to the soloer, either through crafting or some other way. Now, for me, loot has always just been a pleasant by-product of doing group content, it's not something I long for or even aim for. As long as the game is fun then loot is just a reward for doing well. So I'm not bothered either way, however, I would argue on some areas of that depending on where that loot came from. For example, if you expect to be crafting the equivalent of a breastplate that dropped from the God of Thunder, then.. um. No. It's a God. He has better stuff than you can make. End of story.

If all solo players really want is an expanding world, then the increase in DLC these days should suffice, right? Like original Mass Effect 2, that game expanded quite heavily over time with all the DLC that came out. If it's a chat room or people around you that you like, then why are you complaining if they're asshats or demanding or petty. People are people, there are good ones and there are bad ones. Do you hate going out into the world because of all the asshats out there? Or do you just ignore them and focus on the good ones? Why would things be any different in an MMO? If you can't handle the fact that people are going to be in the game and some aren't going to be to your liking, what are you doing there in the first place?

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