Originally posted by SwampRob

Originally posted by SuperXero89

What is "required?"  Unless a game forces you to join into a group in order to literally level up your character, nothing is "required" of you, and you're very well able to do whatever you want in the virtual world; however, just as it is in the real world, we are sometimes required to do certain things we may not want to do *IF* we desire the end result.

 

If a character reaches the top level, and then wants to progress further, by improving his gear, most games force the player to group in the sense that they offer no other alternative to acquiring that gear.    Therefore, for top level characters, such games offer you two choices:  group or forget about improving that character.   That is, for all intents and purposes, forced grouping.

Tell you what.....lets petition to have games put in a button that a solo player can click and instantly get max level and a full set of top end gear and we'll call it done....shall we?

That's the problem with too many gamers today.... they don't understand the real benefit of the game doesn't come from the "rewards" (which are just bit's of virtual data anyways) it comes from the experience of playing.

There are very few games out there that actualy require people to group in order to get the gear they need to continue playing solo. The only time you actualy need stuff like RAID gear is if you actually want to RAID (and even that's debateable in many cases)..... To do solo play, you actualy don't need anything other then the gear you can get through solo play.

I'm playing LOTRO right now....and I've done all the Epic quests (except for the ones which just came out) and about half my gear is something other then Epic quest gear.... and I have zero problems getting through any solo content.  Furthermore whats "Epic" about 1 guy going out and snuffing out the big bad guy?....If one guy can take out an enemy then that enemy won't even be a speed bump for a group of 6 let alone 24 guys working together.... you really think something that EASY to take out should offer the highest rewards in the game? What kind of game logic is that.... why don't we stick epic gear on level 1 giant rats and call it done?

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by SwampRob

Originally posted by SuperXero89

What is "required?"  Unless a game forces you to join into a group in order to literally level up your character, nothing is "required" of you, and you're very well able to do whatever you want in the virtual world; however, just as it is in the real world, we are sometimes required to do certain things we may not want to do *IF* we desire the end result.

 

If a character reaches the top level, and then wants to progress further, by improving his gear, most games force the player to group in the sense that they offer no other alternative to acquiring that gear.    Therefore, for top level characters, such games offer you two choices:  group or forget about improving that character.   That is, for all intents and purposes, forced grouping.

Tell you what.....lets petition to have games put in a button that a solo player can click and instantly get max level and a full set of top end gear and we'll call it done....shall we?

That's the problem with too many gamers today.... they don't understand the real benefit of the game doesn't come from the "rewards" (which are just bit's of virtual data anyways) it comes from the experience of playing.

There are very few games out there that actualy require people to group in order to get the gear they need to continue playing solo. The only time you actualy need stuff like RAID gear is if you actually want to RAID (and even that's debateable in many cases)..... To do solo play, you actualy don't need anything other then the gear you can get through solo play.

I'm playing LOTRO right now....and I've done all the Epic quests (except for the ones which just came out) and about half my gear is something other then Epic quest gear.... and I have zero problems getting through any solo content.  Furthermore whats "Epic" about 1 guy going out and snuffing out the big bad guy?....If one guy can take out an enemy then that enemy won't even be a speed bump for a group of 6 let alone 24 guys working together.... you really think something that EASY to take out should offer the highest rewards in the game? What kind of game logic is that.... why don't we stick epic gear on level 1 giant rats and call it done?

 

You're making two points here:   I'll address each individually.

1.  If you are not going to raid, you don't need raid gear.   First off, let's just call it "better" gear.   In other words, it's an improvement from any gear that I can get thru solo play.    For many players, once they reach the top level, if their options are:  group up or have their character stagnate, they will be forced to choose between something they don't want to do, or they will simply stop playing (and paying).     BTW, very, very few MMOs allow the player the opportunity to get the best gear in the game without grouping.

     It doesn't matter if I "need" the gear, I want the gear.   It's fun to have your character improve and get more powerful.  

2.  Group play is tougher therefore deserves the best gear.    I agree that greater effort should equal greater rewards.    I could debate that group play is certainly sometimes easier than soloing, 6 on 1 is easier than 1 on 1 after all.    However, the developers of these MMOs put in boss encounters which are, for all intents and purposes, impossible to solo at proper level.   This is the way most groupers prefer it, if something can be soloed, it diminishes the group effort.

     I maintain though, that a well-done MMO can satisfy both.    Example:  group (or raid) enters the front door of enemy lair, destroys trash mobs en route to boss and then defeats him, earning their reward.   This takes the group, say, 1 hour total.   The soloer learns of the existance of a back entrance.   But to use it, he has to travel on several other mini-quests to obtain the key.   These quests might take him to multiple locations and many encounters.   Finally, he achieves his key and is able to acquire the same treasure.    This takes the soloer, say, 10 hours total.    (this is a top of my head example and could be improved upon).

    Both methods allow the player to get his gear upgrade in the playstyle he prefers.    Both methods have their benefits.

    Regardless of how you justify it, if you only allow one playstyle to get the best loot, you will alienate the other.   If an MMO chooses to be designed like this, fine; but let the player know in advance!     This bait and switch bs that games like Wow and Lotro do stinks.

    I think there are enough gamers in this world that we can have MMOs that cater to each playstyle, one is not better or "more right" than the other.      This group vs solo conflict only arises when one set of players tries to convince/force the other that their way is the proper one.   I would encourage players of either style to allow for and accept that their should be MMOs of both types, and not that an MMO can only be either/or.

My two cents: I enjoy grouping a lot more than soloing, but sometimes I don't have time to wait for a group, or I'm tired of dealing with idiots, so it's nice to have the option to solo. I didn't like what WoW was, where soloing was so viable that grouping was much more rare than a game like classic EQ or FFXI, but I think WoW fixed that with the random dungeon finder; now finding a group is easy and I can do it as much or as little as I want. Finding a group is easy enough now that it doesn't matter if soloing is so viable that it's all most people do, because I can find a group with the ones that want to group cross-server. (although just to clarify, it was never hard to find a group for soloable quests pre-dungeon finder, but I felt like I was cheating when I was grouped doing solo quests... it was just too quick and easy, and that made it boring for me; it was more difficult / took longer to find pick-up groups for group quests and dungeons, and that's where my problem was).

That said, I would probably still be playing FFXI if I didn't feel like I had to beg my high level friends to help me get past overly difficult but necessary quests like level caps and certain advanced job quests. FFXI was not all that solo friendly, but when I didn't want to group, I would craft, go treasure hunting, play beastmaster, or *gasp* play a single player game. So I guess what I'm saying is, for me, being able to find a group in a reasonable amount of time for group-level content is important. Being able to solo is nice, but not necessary. Having to beg higher level people to help me get past a certain part of the game is stupid. I should be able to do it with others around my level. Luckily, FFXI seems to be the only game I've run into with that last problem. Sadly, FFXI would be perfect for me if not for that issue x.x Oh well...

It's forced soloing I dislike most, why rush to the level cap and then group? I want to meet good people while I level and group up, therefore the game becomes more fun (but that's not the case if it's WoW...cruel people everywhere I went). Just playing by yourself all the time in a game that's meant to be social active is really dull and boring. What happened to the days when people used to group up for WoW's Deadmines or any other instance like that of which isn't level capped?

Originally posted by Yohda

 this is a PERFECT example why forced grouping does NOT work

 

I started my 14 day trial for Saga of Ryzom. I played the trial a few days on the starter isle...ran into a few group forced quests. Problem? I played Ryzom for 3 hours, for 4 consecutive days...every 10-30 min (depending how active chat was)...I asked for help for the group quests. But, 90% of the time, chat was completely dead...and I only saw a few people or less a time on the isle, and was never able to find a group for the quests. I tried doing the quests myself, but no luck.I had no choice but to log out, and never log in again. The game pop is dead, and with forced grouping, its impossible to do anything.

And that people, is why forced grouping does not work. It might work at a MMOs release when its most popular, but once people get higher levels or into higher content, or the game loses a lot of population (like Ryzom) it does NOT work for newbies.

And you think forced soloing is right? From the way I see it, the MMORPG genre is going to die out because soloing seems like what everyone favours and it's only an MMO because there's nothing to do at the end of leveling but group together for raiding, but then again what's the point of all these low level instances if people don't want to do them?

If that's the case then how come I've not come across a MMORPG that has zero instances until level cap? The MMORPG might as well become known as MSPORPG (Masssive Single Player Online Roleplaying Game), I think that's what's going to happen eventually, because lets put it this way, Most people don't like grouping, at all.

I've heard recently that SW:TOR is going to make soloers get their own epics without ever being in a group, what the hell? For all my years of WoW I believed there were people out there that like to get together and play for fun but instead all I see are rude asshats who are not interested to help anyone out or at least make friends, it just seems like you can't make friends in MMORPG's it just doesn't work anymore. An MMO is only good if you have real life friends to play with and sadly I have none now. =(

Originally posted by Yohda

 this is a PERFECT example why forced grouping does NOT work

 

I started my 14 day trial for Saga of Ryzom. I played the trial a few days on the starter isle...ran into a few group forced quests. Problem? I played Ryzom for 3 hours, for 4 consecutive days...every 10-30 min (depending how active chat was)...I asked for help for the group quests. But, 90% of the time, chat was completely dead...and I only saw a few people or less a time on the isle, and was never able to find a group for the quests. I tried doing the quests myself, but no luck.I had no choice but to log out, and never log in again. The game pop is dead, and with forced grouping, its impossible to do anything.

And that people, is why forced grouping does not work. It might work at a MMOs release when its most popular, but once people get higher levels or into higher content, or the game loses a lot of population (like Ryzom) it does NOT work for newbies.

The population in Ryzom is in the main land which you have no access and no communication from the starting/free test island. Also there is absolutely no reason at all to do all these quests on starting island. The monsters on main land start from lvl1. One could go to main land without even doing a single quest in starting island and he would have no problem at all. Also you 'll get much better gear in main land than the rewards from these quests.

---

MMOs are all about playing with other people. If, for whatever reason, you play solo, you may as well play a solo RPG which will be superior, by far, in any case. There isn't much point into playing a MMO that fails, for whatever reason, to bring people together.

It's like having a partner but doing nothing together (no sex, no talking), but only coexist in the same house... What's the point of it? None. You would be better off alone.

Originally posted by scuubeedoo

 

MMOs are all about playing with other people. If, for whatever reason, you play solo, you may as well play a solo RPG which will be superior, by far, in any case. There isn't much point into playing a MMO that fails, for whatever reason, to bring people together.

It's like having a partner but doing nothing together (no sex, no talking), but only coexist in the same house... What's the point of it? None. You would be better off alone.

Sorry but "no"

the first part was spot on...

MMOs are all about playing with other people

Now, how I choose to play with other people should be my choice. It can be grouping, or selling or just helping out here and there.

Also, what's the point of it? The point is and always will be "my" point. I choose how I want to have fun within the context of the game and its design.

IMO it's to risky to focus all of your content on group play. Early on problems would not be as evident. However as the player base thins so do your choices on what you can actually accomplish within the game. Group content is fine, but a better option is to scale the content to the size of the party taking part. Solo players and group players benefit from this, in a game based on bringing thousand together in an environment, it's always a safe bet to try and have a little bit of something for everyone.

I personally prefer to play my MMOs solo. I think that it is unfair of some games to give better equipment to those who play in groups. Of the two MMOs I have played, WOW and Ryzom, only one catered to my playing style. it wasn't WOW. WOW practically requires you to be in a group for better stuff. I prefer the challenge of facing enemies alone. I think that should yield a greater reward.

I think there should be balanced but teaming should get a little more incentive than solo play.  Before you go 'oh team when you want' let me tell you right now that WONT work. 

I play Champions Online right now with my gf.  There is absolutely no reason to team whatsoever.  The only reason is to have fun or do the 1 mission for it.  Another would be to to the repeatable daily nem con for more Unity Merits (which can be gotten solo by doing dailies). 

So here I am.  I like teaming and doing Lairs (CO version of 5 man dungeons) but the thing is....NO ONE WANTS TO GROUP.

There.  No one wants to group. I can take anywhere from 15mins - 1 hour(or sometimes we wont even get a full team of 5) to form a group.  This is for the lower level Lairs usually  because people have missions there and some of them want to do it.  Kicker is....Most people dont want  to do it because they just want to skip it and solo. Because there arent any decent rewards for grouping. 

So now Im left with what? Very little groups because well..There is absolutely no reason to group whatsoever.  Soloing incentive is a lot better so why group?  Before you say 'HA YOURE JUST LOOKING FOR LOOT THEN' no..no were not o.O  The only thing we get from doign all those Lairs is...Doing all those lairs with a group lol.  It rewards us with nothing except the enjoyment of doing the lair.   Would other people do that?  Yes sometimes other random lvl 40 people who are bored do it with us.  But most of the time people just dont want to do them at all since there are barely any rewards!

People who group usually arent the selfish ones.  We just try to get other people to group because 90% of the mmo population wont group unless there are better things for grouping than soloing.  Because when 90% of the population are busy soloing and the 10% of the population who want to group have a hard time actually finding each other and grouping then yes...We cant group if no one else wants.

Im not against soloers and I can see that everyone wants their epic super rare OMGWTFTHATSAWESOME gear but theen what happens to the people who just wants to group and do stuff together?  Yes were a minority but really o.O promoting soloing means youre telling people to not group.  promoting grouping means youre telling people not to solo.  Just find a  decent middle ground so that people are encouraged that grouping is okay. 

Are you guys still arguing about this? If WoW can get the solo crowd to group up more often (via the new LFD system) then any other game out there can do it. And so can any new game coming out in the future. Sure, some antisocial players will still waste their money in hopes of one day being able to flex thier Epeens, but the rest of us are having fun making new friends.

2004, a french team publsihed an mmo, before WoW und Co. so that one is totaly different.

It is mainly based on teamplay, but many people miss a better solo play, so there are mmos - with a totaly different concept than WoW. (game i was talkin about is www.ryzom.com

 Group play is a big problem for casual players on MMOs. You need the time to make a good team to play with and you must have the right gear to play achieve something with them.

From my experience in WoW is a mixture of luck and having good friends, around 40/60% of each I would say :)

Originally posted by elmorti

 Group play is a big problem for casual players on MMOs. You need the time to make a good team to play with and you must have the right gear to play achieve something with them.

From my experience in WoW is a mixture of luck and having good friends, around 40/60% of each I would say :)

Without the dungeon finder, WoW is hardly representative of a game with optimal group play.  

 I play solo, and I like it that way.

In later levels, I don't mind grouping, but I will only group with people I've known for a while to help them out or to achieve things that aren't solo-able.

I make new friends easily enough without grouping with a bunch of people I don't know then one of them screaming their ass off because they died, or didn't achieve what they wanted to. I won't put up with abuse to make friends I'll only see online.

Originally posted by SuperXero89

Originally posted by elmorti

 Group play is a big problem for casual players on MMOs. You need the time to make a good team to play with and you must have the right gear to play achieve something with them.

From my experience in WoW is a mixture of luck and having good friends, around 40/60% of each I would say :)

 

Without the dungeon finder, WoW is hardly representative of a game with optimal group play.  

But with dungeon finder, its MUCH more entertaining. I've been in more instances over the last month, than I've been in in more than 2 years. Thanks to instance drops and emblems I have better gear than I've ever had.  I wish they had added dungeon finder years ago.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by Archemorous

 

Unless you're not interested in fun, no I guess there arent any benefits. I leveled to 80  in wow solo, and in groups. I had alot more fun in a group. It was a small group, granted. in fact it was just me and nother person, so a duo team. But still a group. Leveling alone was boring and not much faster.

Key word here is fun. Some people play the game for that, others dont. Different strokes for different blokes, they say. And true it is.

 

If "fun" means "some soloer wants to try out grouping, fucks up the whole experience for everyone, I log out pissed" then no, I'm not interested. I can't say for sure but I doubt you had fun in these kind of situations either. I agree, leveling alone is boring.

Grouping is a weird animal; it needs a push to become as "fun" as soloing. I'm sure it would be more popular if that were to be done, too. And that's what this forced grouping fellow is asking for; a push. Hopefully santa will grant me that wish.

Merry xmas to you.

It amuses me greatly that someone advocating removing soloing as an option for gaming, and essentially forcing everyone to group, would whine about being in a group with some random asshat that doesn't know how to play the game.
 

This is the exact reason I prefer to have the OPTION to solo in MMOs. I hate random asshats ruining a group. So I solo until my RL friends and family are on so we can form a group. A game without this option included is a game with less subscriptions, end of story. This is why devs are including more of these options.

I love soloing.

I enjoy soloing in Eve, WoW, Ryzom, DDO, AO and a whole bunch of games.

To the people that don't like it? Tough shit! I've been able to solo on my own since UO.

Wanna remove the option to solo? Ill just leave the genre and turn on my 360... no biggie.

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by SuperXero89

Originally posted by elmorti

 Group play is a big problem for casual players on MMOs. You need the time to make a good team to play with and you must have the right gear to play achieve something with them.

From my experience in WoW is a mixture of luck and having good friends, around 40/60% of each I would say :)

 

Without the dungeon finder, WoW is hardly representative of a game with optimal group play.  

 

But with dungeon finder, its MUCH more entertaining. I've been in more instances over the last month, than I've been in in more than 2 years. Thanks to instance drops and emblems I have better gear than I've ever had.  I wish they had added dungeon finder years ago.

That isn't the point though.  My point was the hilarity of a poster using WoW (pre-dungeon finder form the looks of it) as an example of a game with group play.

It would be hard for many people who have been playing MMOs only since WoW to really get a handle on what I mean, since even in games like DDO, WoW, and EQ2, running through dungeons with a group becomes an exercise of muscle memory instead of a period of socialization.

The best examples of games with optimal group play were Final Fantasy XI and the original EQ, which due to a lack of players filling out every level range, hardly resemble their original selves.

Originally posted by cybertrucker

For all these solo play lovers some dev needs to make a new type of game we can call it a MMOSPG... IE you log online the game can only be accessed online. Then make it where you run around with other player but cant actually talk to them or group with them or anything. Maybe a world chat channel and thats it. All the content would be soloable. Even the raids. That way the casual players could get everything they want and still be in the mix with other people.

That sounds an awesome idea!