Trending Games | Pirate101 | World of Warcraft | Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn | EverQuest

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,899,684 Users Online:0
Games:751  Posts:6,268,362
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Angry Birds Epic Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Ascend: Hand of Kul Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Boot Hill Heroes Borderlands 2 Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Bound by Flame Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Bravada Bravely Default Bravely Second Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Cast & Conquer Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Child of Light Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Cyberpunk 2077 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark Souls 2 Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Dead Island Dead Island 2 Dead Island: Riptide Deco Online Deep Down Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Divinity: Original Sin Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Age: Inquisition Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Fin Soup Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Drakengard 3 Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dungeon of the Endless Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout 4 Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Fearless Fantasy Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy Type-0 HD Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken Uprising Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Heart Forth Alicia Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes & Legends: Conquerors of Kolhar Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Atlan Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings Era Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online Kyn L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Redemption LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Lichdom: Battlemage Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lords of the Fallen Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance Mass Effect 4 MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms Might & Magic X: Legacy MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Moonrise Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mythborne Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Oort Online Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Persona V Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pillars of Eternity Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints Pokémon X and Y PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Prodigy Project Blackout Project Gorgon Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Project Zomboid Puzzle Pirates Quest for Infamy Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rail Nation Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of Sierra Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Risen 3: Titan Lords Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sacred 3 Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Chance Heroes Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow Realms Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowgate Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian South Park: The Stick of Truth Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Starbound Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Stormthrone Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Styx: Master of Shadows Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online TUG Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Terraria Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Banner Saga The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Epic Might The Hammers End The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing 2 The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Torment: Tides of Numenera Total Domination Transformers Universe Transistor Transverse Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Warflare Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune Wasteland 2 WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenoblade Chronicles: X Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

World of Warcraft

World of Warcraft 

General Discussion  » WoW Doesn't Make Very Much Money in China

12 posts found
  Devour

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/01/07
Posts: 956

 
OP  12/01/09 3:07:10 AM#1

http://www.wow.com/2009/11/30/the-9-revenues-drop-by-94-after-losing-wow/

Assuming that The9 make a 1/3 of the profit that Blizzard does, then Blizzard are only making £100,000,000 per year in China, which is fragmentary compared to the rest of the world. Hell, that's assuming that The9 only take a third of the costs, it's probably much, MUCH more.

( Although, if NetEase manage to do what they're trying to do, Activision-Blizzard will be in the $$$, as they'll be able to publish Starcraft 2 and Diablo 3 there. )

  Ginaz

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/01/07
Posts: 1720

12/04/09 11:57:44 PM#2
Originally posted by Devour

http://www.wow.com/2009/11/30/the-9-revenues-drop-by-94-after-losing-wow/

Assuming that The9 make a 1/3 of the profit that Blizzard does, then Blizzard are only making £100,000,000 per year in China, which is fragmentary compared to the rest of the world. Hell, that's assuming that The9 only take a third of the costs, it's probably much, MUCH more.

( Although, if NetEase manage to do what they're trying to do, Activision-Blizzard will be in the $$$, as they'll be able to publish Starcraft 2 and Diablo 3 there. )

 

Well, considering the average Chinese citizen is a hellva lot poorer than people in western Europe and North America, they can't afford to pay as much as we do, which is why they have a different payment method over there.  Its better to make less in China per player than to make nothing at all.

Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?

Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.

  mrroboto40

Novice Member

Joined: 5/31/05
Posts: 674

12/05/09 12:03:12 AM#3

You also really can't assume they make 1/3 of the Blizzard makes, it's probably a lot smaller than that.

  Daffid011

Old School

Joined: 1/03/04
Posts: 7652

12/05/09 1:07:12 AM#4

Just for perspective, most companies would kill to make 100 million pounds in a year in subscriptions and don't even make a fraction of that.

 

 

 

  Xiaoki

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/07/04
Posts: 2467

12/05/09 2:25:42 AM#5

Blizzard was making about $80 million per year with The9.

One of the reasons they did not renew their contract with The9 was because they would make $120 million per year with NetEase.

So, yeah, even though China accounted for about half of WoWs subscribers they contributed less than 10% of WoWs yearly revenue.

  Darule

Novice Member

Joined: 9/28/06
Posts: 39

1/14/10 3:25:45 AM#6

I didn't know WOW China was accounted for so little profit of Blizzard's annual earnings. I thought average players in China play about $10 a month which isn't far off the international benchmark.

It's probably because CD Keys are for free for all expansions in China.

  someforumguy

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 3504

1/14/10 3:30:22 AM#7
Originally posted by Devour

http://www.wow.com/2009/11/30/the-9-revenues-drop-by-94-after-losing-wow/

Assuming that The9 make a 1/3 of the profit that Blizzard does, then Blizzard are only making £100,000,000 per year in China, which is fragmentary compared to the rest of the world. Hell, that's assuming that The9 only take a third of the costs, it's probably much, MUCH more.

( Although, if NetEase manage to do what they're trying to do, Activision-Blizzard will be in the $$$, as they'll be able to publish Starcraft 2 and Diablo 3 there. )


How can you call that not much money. Even a company that has a yearly revenue of billions, still call 100mill a lot. Because its a small percentage, doesnt automatically make it a small nominal amount or not important. Wtf!
  Pappy13

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/07
Posts: 2139

I dont need to
"get a life".
Im a gamer, I have
LOTS of LIVES!

1/14/10 12:29:24 PM#8
Originally posted by Darule

I didn't know WOW China was accounted for so little profit of Blizzard's annual earnings. I thought average players in China play about $10 a month which isn't far off the international benchmark.

It's probably because CD Keys are for free for all expansions in China.


 

No, it's because all of the money that Blizzard makes in China is pure PROFIT.  Blizzard doesn't own any servers in China.  They don't have to pay for customer support in China.  They have no expenses in China other than maybe advertising as far as I know.  So although the income from China only accounts for 9% of the total revenue, it accounts for a much larger percentage of the PROFIT that Blizzard makes.

  ThomasN7

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/17/07
Posts: 6671

"Had to be me. Someone else might have gotten it wrong.” - Mordin Solus

1/16/10 6:52:03 PM#9
Originally posted by Pappy13
Originally posted by Darule

I didn't know WOW China was accounted for so little profit of Blizzard's annual earnings. I thought average players in China play about $10 a month which isn't far off the international benchmark.

It's probably because CD Keys are for free for all expansions in China.


 

No, it's because all of the money that Blizzard makes in China is pure PROFIT.  Blizzard doesn't own any servers in China.  They don't have to pay for customer support in China.  They have no expenses in China other than maybe advertising as far as I know.  So although the income from China only accounts for 9% of the total revenue, it accounts for a much larger percentage of the PROFIT that Blizzard makes.


 

This is why Blizzard is so eager to get back into the Chinese market because they do not have to shell out as much and yes they make a ton more because of this. They also can can use Chinese population as an appealing marketing tool for gamers once again. Notice how Blizzard has zipped the lip on how many subscribers they really have now.

  drbaltazar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/28/07
Posts: 7955

1/16/10 7:05:53 PM#10

nha blizzard is about to pull out of china!chinese are just too gready !its not worth the effort for blizzard they tried with the thenine

thenine wasnt more connected then blizzard so they re trying with netease same thing

basicly what chinese do is give us your idea we ll do it now you can go home

its not protecting their market its completelly closing their market if its coming out from other country

but i got news for you if asia doesnt deal with blizzard or google they ll be done dealling with the rest of the world too

because lot of countrys are turning to other part of the world a lot less complicated and for asia that would kill their economy a lot more since a lot of product they manufacture they cant sell to their own country product they make is just plain too expensive to their average citizen.

america is slowly turning to south  america others to india etc just as many people but will to do so fair deal

most country are finding out that asia do business only one way and its to sell you their stuff .what they buy is natural ressource

nothing else.those can be sold anywhere else in the world.

 

  Axxar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/09/08
Posts: 2041

"See how I reward those who fail me!"

1/17/10 4:44:59 AM#11

Yeah, if I only made £100,000,000 a year I'd have to get a smaller apartment.

"Tiny clown, he got wet. I was talking to a psychic and I can't sleep in the ozone. There are too many different peanuts, looking sad.

  User Deleted
1/18/10 1:34:36 AM#12
Originally posted by drbaltazar

nha blizzard is about to pull out of china!chinese are just too gready !its not worth the effort for blizzard they tried with the thenine

thenine wasnt more connected then blizzard so they re trying with netease same thing

basicly what chinese do is give us your idea we ll do it now you can go home

its not protecting their market its completelly closing their market if its coming out from other country

but i got news for you if asia doesnt deal with blizzard or google they ll be done dealling with the rest of the world too

because lot of countrys are turning to other part of the world a lot less complicated and for asia that would kill their economy a lot more since a lot of product they manufacture they cant sell to their own country product they make is just plain too expensive to their average citizen.

america is slowly turning to south  america others to india etc just as many people but will to do so fair deal

most country are finding out that asia do business only one way and its to sell you their stuff .what they buy is natural ressource

nothing else.those can be sold anywhere else in the world.

 

 

Oh really?  Have you been in China lately?  Ever go to the shops? restaurants?  Check the backorder list for premium cars?  Cars selling above 1million yuan (around 160-170K US$).  You need to wait patiently in some parts of China, if you want to buy a new model of famous brand.

China is moving towards internal consumption as the momentum to sustain growth.  Export is not the key any more.  Actually, they are removing almost all export subsidies in Southern China.  The average Chinese citizen?  The expensive stuffs are made for the rich.  The average stuffs are made for the average.  The expensive stuffs are obviously too expensive for the average citizen.  That surprised you?

Way back in the days when I still run a company back home, the average citizens were not queuing up for a trip in the shuttle.  Punt intended.