Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by Drachasor

As a trivial example, real life war is NOT a zerg-fest, nor has it ever been (well, that's never been the optimal use of material).  It is also not a Holy Trinity system.  There's also tons of other games that aren't HT and aren't zerg-fests (D&D, Battletech, Diablo, Guild Wars, and hundreds of others).  I actually wrote a whole thing above about what I thought TOR might be like.

 In real war it's rare to take a bullet in the face and survive, in real war you don't respawn, in real war I can't magically throw fire balls at people, in real war there are no restrictions as to what you can do. I would like to climb the boss and drop a grenade down his throat, one shotting him, but the game is not made for me to do so. If you want a real war, join the army, Real life does not use the HT system.

Diablo is nothing but running circles and zerging. What are you talking about? Never played D&D, looks meh to me. Guild Wars combat was pretty boring to. I don't exactly know how endgame worked though. 

I was talking about the D&D pen and paper RPG.  Anyhow, Diablo when you get in a group can easily involve tactical thought (some class combos enable this more than others) especially if you up the difficulty and artificially increase the # of players so that going in blindly doesn't work so well.

Hmm, on real war.  You start off saying there are things that can't happen, then say there are no restrictions.  I find that kinda funny.  : )
Anyhow, If soldiers could take 10 bullets before dying in real life, that wouldn't turn things into a Zerg Fest either.  Your points are not particularly relevent regarding the general nature of possible combat systems.

My point was that there are plenty of examples in real life, games, and fiction where HT isn't what is going on.  Just because you don't have HT doesn't mean there aren't tactical concerns.  An MMO without HT doesn't mean it is a Zerg Fest.  What it does mean is that the classes and monsters (and monster AI) will be designed differently (AI will be able to be more intelligent, in fact), but that's about it.   Anyhow, the exact way the many, many non-HT things in real life and in games aren't HT doesn't MATTER for our purposes except for the fact not having HT doesn't mean you are stuck with Zerging.

Originally posted by hayes303

 Hard to tell from the 1 hr or so of game footage avail pre-beta.

No it isn't...LOL. You can tell how a game is going to play from 5 minutes of gameplay. One hours is plenty to see it's going to be the same old thing with more jumping and rolling etc.

Originally posted by ipwnyounoob

Originally posted by hayes303

 Hard to tell from the 1 hr or so of game footage avail pre-beta.

No it isn't...LOL. You can tell how a game is going to play from 5 minutes of gameplay. One hours is plenty to see it's going to be the same old thing with more jumping and rolling etc.

No, you can only tell how the actual gameplay is going to be after playing for 5 minutes, that's it. We still have no idea what everything we can do in the game. The gameplay to me looks like KOTOR + an MMO feel which I think what they're going for....you know, it is an online KOTOR afterall.

Those saying that because there is a tank, healer, and DPS the game must play with the "holy trinity." Well, maybe it does play like that who knows? But because just those "classes" are in it doesn't mean it has to be played that way, CoX is a fine example of that. Have any combination of classes and you can do 99% of the content in the game.

Originally posted by Drachasor

 

1 I was talking about the D&D pen and paper RPG.  Anyhow, Diablo when you get in a group can easily involve tactical thought (some class combos enable this more than others) especially if you up the difficulty and artificially increase the # of players so that going in blindly doesn't work so well.

2 Hmm, on real war.  You start off saying there are things that can't happen, then say there are no restrictions.  I find that kinda funny.  : )
Anyhow, If soldiers could take 10 bullets before dying in real life, that wouldn't turn things into a Zerg Fest either.  Your points are not particularly relevent regarding the general nature of possible combat systems.

3 My point was that there are plenty of examples in real life, games, and fiction where HT isn't what is going on.  Just because you don't have HT doesn't mean there aren't tactical concerns.  An MMO without HT doesn't mean it is a Zerg Fest.  What it does mean is that the classes and monsters (and monster AI) will be designed differently (AI will be able to be more intelligent, in fact), but that's about it.   Anyhow, the exact way the many, many non-HT things in real life and in games aren't HT doesn't MATTER for our purposes except for the fact not having HT doesn't mean you are stuck with Zerging.

1. Yeah I've played Diablo with a few people. It was a bit more difficult, I was still spending my time spamming 2-3 buttons while running circles to avoid flames. It's not bad, I enjoyed the game. I just didn't see much strategy going on. I also know next to shit about P&P rpgs. I don't exactly roleplay so forgive my ignorance.

2. That's because you don't understand the restrictions I'm talking about. I'm talking about actions taken. A game is programmed so you do what they limit you to. In real life you can carry out any action you want. Want to climb that tree? Do it. Want to blow up something? Do it. The police will exercise their actions as well.

Related to your last post: The taunt argument is goofy, ever been in a fist fight involving more then one person? I've seen fights, been involved in them. And the guy that you piss off will stick to you no matter how many friends you have. YOU pissed him off therefore his goal is to knock the shit out of you first. If somebody else pisses him off more (watch your agro) he will probably jump away from you and shoot for him. It's really no different.

I now feel "dumber" for talking about this. Because I understand realistically a fight in a game and in real life will be quite different. But that does not mean agro, tanks or anything of that sort are silly.

3. As I said, to each his own. I think Diablo is a circle running zerg fest, you think it has strategy. At this point it don't matter. ToR can't please everybody.

Originally posted by ipwnyounoob

Originally posted by hayes303

 Hard to tell from the 1 hr or so of game footage avail pre-beta.

No it isn't...LOL. You can tell how a game is going to play from 5 minutes of gameplay. One hours is plenty to see it's going to be the same old thing with more jumping and rolling etc.

I thought WoW was going to suck from the videos I watched before release. I got into the Stress Test and loved it.

So that makes you wrong.

Originally posted by greed0104

1. That's because you don't understand the restrictions I'm talking about. I'm talking about actions taken. A game is programmed so you do what they limit you to. In real life you can carry out any action you want. Want to climb that tree? Do it. Want to blow up something? Do it. The police will exercise their actions as well.

2. Related to your last post: The taunt argument is goofy, ever been in a fist fight involving more then one person? I've seen fights, been involved in them. And the guy that you piss off will stick to you no matter how many friends you have. YOU pissed him off therefore his goal is to knock the shit out of you first. If somebody else pisses him off more (watch your agro) he will probably jump away from you and shoot for him. It's really no different.

3. I now feel "dumber" for talking about this. Because I understand realistically a fight in a game and in real life will be quite different. But that does not mean agro, tanks or anything of that sort are silly. 

Well, I think we can drop Diablo talk, not really that important (plenty of other games with stronger tactical considerations).
 

1. If taking an action kills you before you can really complete it (e.g. charging in trench warfare), then essentially it is a limitation in my book.  Yeah, you can't get everything possible in real life into a game, but that's why you have special abilities and so forth (and ideally as technology progresses more efforts made to make the game have that higher level of realism).

2. Yeah, taunting works on some people, that's true.  Generally the people more likely to get provoked into a fist fight are more likely to have taunting work on them.  Going back to the army example, if a particular part of the enemy army broadcasts out insults towards you, then destroying their broadcast system might be a morale concern, but beyond that a wise leader doesn't let that dictate strategy.  Same thing in a fist fight, just because some idiots CAN get taunted, doesn't mean someone who keeps their head will let it control them.  The smart thing to do is to use your anger and not to let it control you.  It is even less likely to work in a fantasy world where that person that taunted you has a friend that can magically heal them off to the side and you can hardly hurt the person that did the taunting.  I'm sure there's something like this in real life where a friend is off to the side helping somehow (and let's assume you ARE in a fist fight and the guy you are attacking is REALLY hard to hurt and that other guy looks trivial and is making things a lot harder in some way -- yeah, some people might be dumb enough to ignore that, but plenty of people won't be, imho).

If manipulating emotions like this worked so easily, then the first person that used it in any military scenario would win, because the other guy would automatically lose their head and get drawn into a battle.  There are plenty of people that aren't hot-heads, and even hot-heads can potentially realize they are fighting in an extraordinarily stupid way in a fight that lasts for many minutes.

3.  I don't think there is anything wrong with bringing up fighting in real life.  Ideally the game should feel realistic after all.

Originally posted by Drachasor

3.  I don't think there is anything wrong with bringing up fighting in real life.  Ideally the game should feel realistic after all.

I think a game ceases to feel realistic when someone can throw lightning bolts,wield a lightsaber or cast spells. ;)

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by Drachasor

3.  I don't think there is anything wrong with bringing up fighting in real life.  Ideally the game should feel realistic after all.

I think a game ceases to feel realistic when someone can throw lightning bolts,wield a lightsaber or cast spells. ;)

Naturally a given fictional world changes some of the rules for how things work.  Star Wars adds in the Force, high technology, alien races, and some other stuff.  Beyond that though, the world basically operates according to the same rules our does.  If you cut off a normal person's head and then they start dancing around and the head starts singing, there better be a DANG good explanation or that is going to really break realism (also called "immersion").  So, since in Star Wars intelligent races operate in a way we can understand -- in a rough sense like some variation on human behavior -- then people behaving in a dramatically different way in a game (like willing jumping into lava) doesn't make sense.  Within the context of Star Wars that sort of behavior isn't realistic.

In short, the setting asks for our willing suspension of disbelief in some areas.  That doesn't mean it is asking for it in every area (and in particular it is NOT asking that).

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by ipwnyounoob

Originally posted by hayes303

 Hard to tell from the 1 hr or so of game footage avail pre-beta.

 

No it isn't...LOL. You can tell how a game is going to play from 5 minutes of gameplay. One hours is plenty to see it's going to be the same old thing with more jumping and rolling etc.

 

I thought WoW was going to suck from the videos I watched before release. I got into the Stress Test and loved it.

So that makes you wrong.

WoW does suck.

Originally posted by ipwnyounoob

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by ipwnyounoob

Originally posted by hayes303

 Hard to tell from the 1 hr or so of game footage avail pre-beta.

 

No it isn't...LOL. You can tell how a game is going to play from 5 minutes of gameplay. One hours is plenty to see it's going to be the same old thing with more jumping and rolling etc.

 

I thought WoW was going to suck from the videos I watched before release. I got into the Stress Test and loved it.

So that makes you wrong.

WoW does suck.

With a name like "Ipwnyounoob" I shouldn't expect you to get the point.

Originally posted by ipwnyounoob

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by ipwnyounoob

Originally posted by hayes303

 Hard to tell from the 1 hr or so of game footage avail pre-beta.

 

No it isn't...LOL. You can tell how a game is going to play from 5 minutes of gameplay. One hours is plenty to see it's going to be the same old thing with more jumping and rolling etc.

 

I thought WoW was going to suck from the videos I watched before release. I got into the Stress Test and loved it.

So that makes you wrong.

WoW does suck.

Yes it does. Majorly.

Originally posted by Moirae

Originally posted by ipwnyounoob

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by ipwnyounoob

Originally posted by hayes303

 Hard to tell from the 1 hr or so of game footage avail pre-beta.

 

No it isn't...LOL. You can tell how a game is going to play from 5 minutes of gameplay. One hours is plenty to see it's going to be the same old thing with more jumping and rolling etc.

 

I thought WoW was going to suck from the videos I watched before release. I got into the Stress Test and loved it.

So that makes you wrong.

WoW does suck.

Yes it does. Majorly.

It does now, but at one time it was a great game.

The whole point was that you can't judge a game off a video. You really need to have a hands on experience for absolute judgment. 

Thanks for fueling his ignorace though.

Im with you boys. God am i glad that more and more are sick of the clonation.

From my point of view, if this game is going to have the usual line of quests that force you to explore the places they have decided, and then out of that zone into another one, that's enuff to call clone at it.

Because character progression is the biggest feature of an MMO, the activity you will do for most of your /played time.

And before someone says it, there's difference between generic quests, and quests done in the usual way, with the window accept/decline, the rewards below, the short description, the marker on the map, the farming for RATS that drop their SPACEBALLS

There's probably a MILLION ways to do quests in a way that's entirely different from the WoW way.