I think EvE is a really good example of a sandbox game, and lets compare it to WoW. In wow you start out, you level, and you get to the endgame. There is some PvP, but IMO it is not worth mentioning. In EvE you start out, and then there is no telling what you will be doing after that; trading, PvP, industry, Etc. You are free to do what you want, and usually other players are free to do what they want to you.

EvE and WoW are completely different games, but they do have some things in common. Those things may be the same on the surface, but because the core of the games is completely different, those things have different values in each game.

Originally posted by darkbladed

Originally posted by Demz2

 

Sandbox is about freedom?  Get a grip no its not, yes u cna play the game with freedom as you wish, but you still have objectives to do, and are told what you can do, like with any game.  In your so called thempark game, I can chose to do absolultely anythign i want to do within the games limits.  Its about game limits and not ur idiotic terms.  The idiots on this site use the Sandbox terms for their own puproses to suit them when they need.  Spore is one of the biggest sandbox games there is, yet it is utterly boring after a while and yes you are guided as what you can do and cannot do.  GTA is a vast open world, yet there are limits to what u can do or not do, and yes you are told to do this and do that, like with any so called thempark game.  You think because you can build a house on a given set of land its sandbox???lol

 

Never said anything about Sandboxes not having limits. Just said Themeparks have more limits.

Maybe next I'll have to explain what trolling is...

 

Really this teen-angst man.  Did it feel good saying "What you wrote is horrible and I hate you even though I don't know you" cause if it did that's great man keep doing it; but it is pretty childish.

So what defines that break off point of having too much Limits, so that it is TP?
 

Cause EQ had Classes correct?

EQ had Lvls Correct?

SWG had Classes Correct?

Originally posted by tro44_1

Originally posted by darkbladed

Originally posted by Demz2

 

Sandbox is about freedom?  Get a grip no its not, yes u cna play the game with freedom as you wish, but you still have objectives to do, and are told what you can do, like with any game.  In your so called thempark game, I can chose to do absolultely anythign i want to do within the games limits.  Its about game limits and not ur idiotic terms.  The idiots on this site use the Sandbox terms for their own puproses to suit them when they need.  Spore is one of the biggest sandbox games there is, yet it is utterly boring after a while and yes you are guided as what you can do and cannot do.  GTA is a vast open world, yet there are limits to what u can do or not do, and yes you are told to do this and do that, like with any so called thempark game.  You think because you can build a house on a given set of land its sandbox???lol

 

Never said anything about Sandboxes not having limits. Just said Themeparks have more limits.

Maybe next I'll have to explain what trolling is...

 

Really this teen-angst man.  Did it feel good saying "What you wrote is horrible and I hate you even though I don't know you" cause if it did that's great man keep doing it; but it is pretty childish.

So what defines that break off point of having too much Limits, so that it is TP?
 

Cause EQ had Classes correct?

EQ had Lvls Correct?

SWG had Classes Correct?

Swg had base classes but you had much more flexibility read up on it and you will see.

Normally if a MMO has a skill system even if you get to pick a base archtype first it starts to separate it self from the themepark sub genre.

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by tro44_1

Originally posted by darkbladed

Originally posted by Demz2

 

Sandbox is about freedom?  Get a grip no its not, yes u cna play the game with freedom as you wish, but you still have objectives to do, and are told what you can do, like with any game.  In your so called thempark game, I can chose to do absolultely anythign i want to do within the games limits.  Its about game limits and not ur idiotic terms.  The idiots on this site use the Sandbox terms for their own puproses to suit them when they need.  Spore is one of the biggest sandbox games there is, yet it is utterly boring after a while and yes you are guided as what you can do and cannot do.  GTA is a vast open world, yet there are limits to what u can do or not do, and yes you are told to do this and do that, like with any so called thempark game.  You think because you can build a house on a given set of land its sandbox???lol

 

Never said anything about Sandboxes not having limits. Just said Themeparks have more limits.

Maybe next I'll have to explain what trolling is...

 

Really this teen-angst man.  Did it feel good saying "What you wrote is horrible and I hate you even though I don't know you" cause if it did that's great man keep doing it; but it is pretty childish.

So what defines that break off point of having too much Limits, so that it is TP?
 

Cause EQ had Classes correct?

EQ had Lvls Correct?

SWG had Classes Correct?

Swg had base classes but you had much more flexibility read up on it and you will see.

Normally if a MMO has a skill system even if you get to pick a base archtype first it starts to separate it self from the themepark sub genre.

 

Iam still a little confused. Do you mean like WoW's Talent Trees?

Originally posted by tro44_1

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by tro44_1

Originally posted by darkbladed

Originally posted by Demz2

 

Sandbox is about freedom?  Get a grip no its not, yes u cna play the game with freedom as you wish, but you still have objectives to do, and are told what you can do, like with any game.  In your so called thempark game, I can chose to do absolultely anythign i want to do within the games limits.  Its about game limits and not ur idiotic terms.  The idiots on this site use the Sandbox terms for their own puproses to suit them when they need.  Spore is one of the biggest sandbox games there is, yet it is utterly boring after a while and yes you are guided as what you can do and cannot do.  GTA is a vast open world, yet there are limits to what u can do or not do, and yes you are told to do this and do that, like with any so called thempark game.  You think because you can build a house on a given set of land its sandbox???lol

 

Never said anything about Sandboxes not having limits. Just said Themeparks have more limits.

Maybe next I'll have to explain what trolling is...

 

Really this teen-angst man.  Did it feel good saying "What you wrote is horrible and I hate you even though I don't know you" cause if it did that's great man keep doing it; but it is pretty childish.

So what defines that break off point of having too much Limits, so that it is TP?
 

Cause EQ had Classes correct?

EQ had Lvls Correct?

SWG had Classes Correct?

Swg had base classes but you had much more flexibility read up on it and you will see.

Normally if a MMO has a skill system even if you get to pick a base archtype first it starts to separate it self from the themepark sub genre.

 

 

Iam still a little confused. Do you mean like WoW's Talent Trees?

Trying to explain SWGs skill system in detail is like explaining AOs equip and attribute system I could write a book on it.

Read this and tell me if WoWs little three talent trees were this deep or freaking confusing.

Originally posted by tro44_1

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by tro44_1

Originally posted by darkbladed

Originally posted by Demz2

 

Sandbox is about freedom?  Get a grip no its not, yes u cna play the game with freedom as you wish, but you still have objectives to do, and are told what you can do, like with any game.  In your so called thempark game, I can chose to do absolultely anythign i want to do within the games limits.  Its about game limits and not ur idiotic terms.  The idiots on this site use the Sandbox terms for their own puproses to suit them when they need.  Spore is one of the biggest sandbox games there is, yet it is utterly boring after a while and yes you are guided as what you can do and cannot do.  GTA is a vast open world, yet there are limits to what u can do or not do, and yes you are told to do this and do that, like with any so called thempark game.  You think because you can build a house on a given set of land its sandbox???lol

 

Never said anything about Sandboxes not having limits. Just said Themeparks have more limits.

Maybe next I'll have to explain what trolling is...

 

Really this teen-angst man.  Did it feel good saying "What you wrote is horrible and I hate you even though I don't know you" cause if it did that's great man keep doing it; but it is pretty childish.

So what defines that break off point of having too much Limits, so that it is TP?
 

Cause EQ had Classes correct?

EQ had Lvls Correct?

SWG had Classes Correct?

Swg had base classes but you had much more flexibility read up on it and you will see.

Normally if a MMO has a skill system even if you get to pick a base archtype first it starts to separate it self from the themepark sub genre.

 

 

Iam still a little confused. Do you mean like WoW's Talent Trees?

Eh, look at skill systems as Talent Trees for every individual stat a character could possibly use.

Unlike Talent Trees, Skill Sytems were not limited to adding to 1 or 2 skills out of 100.

Skill Systems basically make up your whole character from the start. Take a game like Anarchy Online. You had levels and classes, but you also had skill points that you had to spend in skills to actually increase your characters abilities. And you didnt have to follow the same skills as another player of the same class. If you spent your points for everything that allowed you to cast your nanos (spells) then you could pretty much self cast any nano your class had. If you mixed the spending up between your nano abilities, combat skills (Pistol, Assault rife, Machine Guns, etc) and different armor stats (most gear had stat requirments to wear) you might not have been able to use certain high level nanos, some weapons or even wear some of the armor. Then if you got into wanting to use the better, more expensive Yalms (first flying mounts) you had to add points to air navigation. Your skill points were not infinite and dumping too much into the wrong areas (like Doctors and NTs going heavy gear and sniper rifle for PvP) you would limit yourself in other areas and higher level skills.

Basically Skill Systems make a player plan out their character a lot more carefully than someone playing WoW would ever have to. It also allowed you to play your character the way you wanted to play, not the way the devs and other players intended you to play.

If you need to see the difference between a skill system and WoWs talent tree, AO is free and you could get a general idea of the differeces in the systems.

Originally posted by tro44_1

So what defines that break off point of having too much Limits, so that it is TP?

Cause EQ had Classes correct?

EQ had Lvls Correct?

SWG had Classes Correct?

There is no "break off point".

Genres are terms for vaguely describing a type of game.  Sub-genres (ie sandbox/themepark) are even more vague terms, and thus there's no "break off point".  It's a vague measure of how much perceived freedom you have in a game.

Nobody in any other game genre argues about the specifics of Tactical vs. Strategic RTS, or Tactical vs. Action FPS.  So it's very silly for MMORPGers to argue about Sandbox vs. Themepark specifics.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by tro44_1

So what defines that break off point of having too much Limits, so that it is TP?

Cause EQ had Classes correct?

EQ had Lvls Correct?

SWG had Classes Correct?

 

There is no "break off point".

Genres are terms for vaguely describing a type of game.  Sub-genres (ie sandbox/themepark) are even more vague terms, and thus there's no "break off point".  It's a vague measure of how much perceived freedom you have in a game.

Nobody in any other game genre argues about the specifics of Tactical vs. Strategic RTS, or Tactical vs. Action FPS.  So it's very silly for MMORPGers to argue about Sandbox vs. Themepark specifics.

Of course they do! Never read a Tactical squad based shooter (ghost recon) vs Arcade based shooter (Quake) discussion?

Same with action genres . Rts genre does it all the time with Starcraft/warcraft vs more technical rts games like Age of empire and Red alert.

Splitting a genre into sub genres is very common.

Don;t act like MMOers are strange or stupid for doing it.

Hell we do it in another genre of videogame right here on this site Cinematic/linear Rpg (Dragon age) vs Open ended Rpg (Morrowind).

Im surprised that you even made that post honestly.

Edit: Oh!! Racing games do it also (Simulation vs Arcade racer).

Was mostly a generalization post.  Yes, I realize that sometimes the sub-genres get nitpicked.  Yes, I realize every popular genre has sub-genres (action vs. realistic sports games being yet another example.)

But you visit an RTS forum and talk about the games, whereas in MMORPG.com's forums like fully 20% of all threads end up being about this stuff.  What is/isn't an MMO?  What is/isn't an RPG?   What is/isn't sandbox or themepark?   The obsession goes so far beyond what you see in other genres that I felt safe saying "nobody" nitpicks in the other genres. :P

The reason why is that it devolves into meaningless drivel.  I mean you're calling Dragon Age, a game that quickly opens up into "which of these 3-4 main story branches do you want to do now?" and "oh and which sidequests too?" and you're labeling that a linear game?   What an exaggeration.   There are many games in the RPG genre that make Dragon Age look almost like a sandbox game in comparison.

Not really sure what you mean by "more technical" with AOE and RA.  If anything Starcraft is the most technical RTS on the market (still) due to its superb balance.  Honestly this is the first I've seen "technical" used as a sub-genre (and given the vagueness of the term, there's probably a reason for that.)   Lumping Starcraft in with Warcraft (3) is a bit off too, given the large difference in game depth between the two.

TBH Rise of Nations felt a lot more strategically interesting than any game of the AOE series (whose comparitive shallowness was often masked behind lengthy periods of memorized-build build-up.) I'd say I was a bit biased, having worked on RON, but I've also worked on AOE2:C and AOE3:TAD so it swings both ways.

Originally posted by darkbladed

I was reading on another forum here at mmorpg.com and someone said "EQ is level-based, doesn't that make it themepark (talking about old EQ)" and I just felt like it was my duty to talk a bit about the differences between those two and other confused terms.

 

1. Level-based vs. Skill-based vs. Freeform

Obviously, Level-based means you get 10000 xp you go from level 36-37 and your character becomes somewhat more powerful

Skill-based can be handled a few ways, these are two of the most popular ways; You use a skill X amount of times it increases and you get better at that skill OR You gain X experience in a related field of your skill and you buy Tiers in that skill making you better at it.

Freeform is usually harder to figure out your characters power-rating and is often used in more roleplay heavy systems.

 

2. Hardcore vs. Casual

This is by far the hardest to define; some say it is based on time put in per-day over time, others by the skill level and ability to "play-your-class" to it's best, and still others think it has to do with the ability to organize large amounts of people and push through content the fastest. 

Whatever your definition it all boils down to dedication. Hardcore players are dedicated enough to practice, play for 6 hours raiding at a time, and learn the ins-and-outs of both their classes and competing/cooperating classes.  Casual players cannot dedicate the time, resources, and enjoy daylight too much to be able to be HARDCORE!

 

3. Last is Themepark vs. Sandbox

Themepark means there are "lines" you need to follow to get to the next piece of content.  Your hand is held and you are told basically where you need to go next.  After completing each areas quest-series an NPC says to you "Captain Brian needs reinforcements in Baglores Keeps take this note to him saying you are awesome" and this leads you by the hand to the next area.

This is not to say that you have to do EVERY quest in the series; if you grind enough monsters you never have to take the note to Captain Brian you just go there and either do quests or grind mobs.  But note that there are only a few areas you can go to (depending on the game size 2-5 areas per level bracket; with some overlap).  Many Themepark games are level-based but not necessarily.

 

Sandbox is about freedom.  How much freedom is a matter of difference between games; Some games let you build houses anywhere while some have housing-zones, some let you craft items by recipe (with minor alterations based on components) and some let you have huge leeway through use of resource quality, components, sub-components, crafting buffs, alternate materials, etc.

Sandbox generally works best with open worlds; most try to group higher level monsters away from starting areas but there tends to be a great amount of overlapping (you could be fighting a level 3 rat and a level 25 lizard man could come 1-hit ya).  Generally a low level player, if careful, can wander over vast spaces doing whatever s/he wants and be ok in sandbox. Many sandbox games are skill-based but not necessarily.

 

 

While my definitions are simplified, and probably incomplete, I hope this helps people a little with definitions.  Good luck and enjoy whatever game you are playing; be it sandbox or themepark.  Me I'm still chasing the dragon on pre-NGE Star Wars Galaxies (a mostly sandbox game). If anyone has game suggestions I'd love to hear from you in PMs.

Agreed.....

although my sandbox vs themepark definitions revolve more around "invisible walls" (restrictions within the game).  Examples of invisible walls would be zone boundaries, not being able to kill "friendly" NPC's or PC's, not being able to kill members of enemy factions if they're not flagged for pvp, etc.  As you said though, its more a matter of degrees than absolutes, as there are no mmo's that are totally one or the other.  I'm usually not as concerned in my games with the degree they're sandbox or themepark, but more in how those "invisible walls" are emplaced, why they are there, and how they impact the game and community. 

So what defines that break off point of having too much Limits, so that it is TP?
 

Cause EQ had Classes correct?

EQ had Lvls Correct?

SWG had Classes Correct?
 

POST NGE (SWG) had classes, the original game did not have classes....quite.  You didn't level up classes, but you did level up skills, once you mastered certain skill trees, you gain a title, and that was sort of your class.  Even after you did that, you still had skill points to use to learn other things.  It was a very unique, complex system that allowed far more freedom than traditional classes.  That coupled with the excellent crafting/economy system were the two things SWG had going for it. 

While having classes generally tends to nudge an mmo towards the TP category, it is not the major defining element of a themepark mmo imo.  For me it is all about how many artificial restrictions (or paths, or invisible walls, whatever) are present.  As far as the breaking point, that is up to you the player.  If you are looking for complete freedom, then the breaking point lies just to the right (left-wing, liberal sandbox vs. right-wing, conservative themepark) of DFO and EVE.  If you like a game with a lot of structure, then the breaking point is just to the "left" of WoW. 

really O.o i thought a themepark is where you go to have fun and enjoy rides.

sandbox to me is; going to a box full of sand and making something out sand, only limited by my imagination.

there are no true sandboxes/themeparks anywhere in the mmo world.

I've looked at the two concepts like this.

Themepark:

This type of concept drops you into the game with combat being the primary source of gameplay. When you drop into the world you are directed to an NPC that gives you a quest/mission. You complete this and he/she/it directs you to another NPC or village/town/city full of npcs who in turn give you quests/missions. Through completing all of the quests/missions in this village/town/city one or three of them will direct you to another village/town/city/roadside hovel where more npcs will give you more quests/missions. So on and so forth.

These games also are fairly restrictive in the development of a character. Restrictive may not be the "right" word and it may be better to say that there isn't alot of choices you can make for character development. You have classes that define you in a specific "role" within the combat heavy laden game mechanics. That class may have 2 or 3 offshoots that vary it up a little, but you are still that "core" peanut butter sandwich, just with a choice of strawberry, grape of cherry jam. Another player may be a ham sandwich with choices of ketchup, mayonaise or mustard.

Other gameplay systems such as player housing, guild systems, land control, land development, "magic" systems see only a very top level implementation if done so at all. They are incorporated at the least developed level that makes them function and have no significant depth.

Sandbox

In these games combat isn't the primary source of gameplay. Instead, combat is an equal parts player in gameplay holding hands with a robust crafting system (SWG-Pre NGE or Ultima Online are my two favorite examples) as well as other gameplay systems (player housing, robust guild system, land control systems, land development, "magic" systems) that are all intertwined and have equal, deep attention. Here, a player is given all these tools along with a meaningful lore (not just a generic background story), drop into the world and asked "Now, what are you going to do to make your mark in this world?". Important too is having multiple (more than two less than 100) ways of achieving said mark.

Do you want to be a great warrior? We have a system for that. Do you want to be known as a great builder, making houses and castles and ships to sell that others can make their farmsteads with, or claim vasts lands (and fight over them) or sail and explore far away regions? We have a system for that. Or do you want to be a great archmage, having to actually experiment to learn new spells and (with your "fireball" spell possibly consuming different reagents and life force) than the next mage's, and being able to travel the lands to find traveling sages and curry favor with them to release their arcane knowledge to advance your studies? Yeah, we have a system for that too.

This game doesn't suffer from the peanut butter or ham sandwich effect in the restrictive manner listed above. It isn't an infinite system, mind you, but you have the option to put ham, mayo and ketchup on your peanut butter sandwich. You have the options of not only a ham sandwich, but bologna, salami, liverwurst, bacon, tuna, etc, and can incorporate any or all of these (with pros and cons, naturally) into who/what your character is. A skill based system works better for this in my view as you can pick and choose the skills you want your character to have. A thoughtful skill based system would allow for synergy related "bonuses" in various shapes/form when certain various combinations of skills are learned and advanced.

So, yeah, that's what I think of when I hear the two mentioned. One is a directed experience that, through its limited development of game mechanics guides you to a destination, usually with those destinations being of only a handful that are preset. The other tries to account for as many goals as possible (and requires creative thinking developers that are not so fixated on the warrior caste that they can see the importance of all the others castes that make the warrior "go-go"). No game that I know of has produced this, though a couple have been on the right path.

I have seen someone else use this analogy:

Sandbox is like you are in a movie, themepark is like you are watching a movie.  Both have entertainment value.

So it would be imposible for Strong popular Lore IPs to become a Sandbox Mmo correct.

Like wo example, How would the Warcraft lore be taken and made into a Sandbox MMO?

Whats about Warhammer's lore? Could that be used to make a Sand Box MMO?

LoTR lore?

They are role playing games after all. So how do you add great Lore of IP to a sandbox game?

Originally posted by tro44_1

So it would be imposible for Strong popular Lore IPs to become a Sandbox Mmo correct.

 

Like wo example, How would the Warcraft lore be taken and made into a Sandbox MMO?

Whats about Warhammer's lore? Could that be used to make a Sand Box MMO?

LoTR lore?

 

They are role playing games after all. So how do you add great Lore of IP to a sandbox game?

Warcraft was supposed to be more sandboxy. It was always supposed to be a themepark, but with more sandbox elements to it... not many but still.

You can't get bigger than Lord of the Rings. Middle Earth Online was supposed to be a sandbox and a pretty damn good one from what I read. But, it sold out to Turbine, became LoTRO and went themepark. Blah. The developers weren't going to try to put people into the story, but rather allow them to live in Middle Earth and spent years analyzing Tolkien's books to make it as perfect as possible. That was pretty much all trashed when they sold out.

You can't get much bigger than Star Wars either. SWG pre-NGE was pretty much a sandbox. Not completely, but it was still more sandbox than anything else.

Originally posted by tro44_1

So it would be imposible for Strong popular Lore IPs to become a Sandbox Mmo correct.

 

Like wo example, How would the Warcraft lore be taken and made into a Sandbox MMO?

Whats about Warhammer's lore? Could that be used to make a Sand Box MMO?

LoTR lore?

 

They are role playing games after all. So how do you add great Lore of IP to a sandbox game?

imo, you could make a sandbox from those, but it would be a task since you already know where the story is going, and thus wouldn't be able to impact the world much as a player.

You can't get bigger than Lord of the Rings. Middle Earth Online was supposed to be a sandbox and a pretty damn good one from what I read. But, it sold out to Turbine, became LoTRO and went themepark. Blah.

 

I remember this...

R.I.P. Middle Earth Online

Originally posted by Ruyn

I have seen someone else use this analogy:

Sandbox is like you are in a movie, themepark is like you are watching a movie.  Both have entertainment value.

Such a terrible analogy though.

Even in Call of Duty you're not watching a movie - the outcome is directly impacted by how you play the game.  The most Themepark MMORPG is so much more choice-driven than any COD game that the idea that themeparks are like movies is preposterous.

That's why I describe a line, of all the possible amounts of player choice in an activity, from none (watching movies) to total freedom (creating art.)  Even the most themepark of MMORPGs fall near the center of the line; more towards freedom actually when you consider how many different choices you actually end up making.  Sure, sandbox games are even further down the line towards total freedom, but themepark are hardly devoid of choices...

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Ruyn

I have seen someone else use this analogy:

Sandbox is like you are in a movie, themepark is like you are watching a movie.  Both have entertainment value.

 

Such a terrible analogy though.

Even in Call of Duty you're not watching a movie - the outcome is directly impacted by how you play the game.  The most Themepark MMORPG is so much more choice-driven than any COD game that the idea that themeparks are like movies is preposterous.

That's why I describe a line, of all the possible amounts of player choice in an activity, from none (watching movies) to total freedom (creating art.)  Even the most themepark of MMORPGs fall near the center of the line; more towards freedom actually when you consider how many different choices you actually end up making.  Sure, sandbox games are even further down the line towards total freedom, but themepark are hardly devoid of choices...

Imo, the simplest way to put the sandbox vs themepark is~
 

Sandbox= player driven content

Themepark=developer driven content

ie- in a themepark, the developers know exactly where you'll be at level 52. While in a sanbox, there is no spoon, wait...wut