Originally posted by tro44_1

1)How did EQ manage to get Sandbox to switch over to Theme Park mmos, back in the day?

2) Was EQ hated on by Sandbox fans, like they currently do now when it comes to WoW?

3) What do you think made the MMORPG industry convert over into Theme Park style, rather then sticking with the traditional Snadbox gaming, that many Old School MMO players enjoyed soo much?

 

I was wondering. How did EQ manage to be soo succesful as a more Theme Park oriented MMO, around the time that Sandbox Mmos were dominate? Anybod have an idea as to what unfolded during those ages?

1) EQ wasn't a theme park when it first came out

2) I don't know.

3) SOE started turning EQ into a theme park in 2002

Originally posted by tro44_1

Originally posted by Eindrachen

Anyone who thinks that the "sandbox/themepark" debate even existed when EQ came out is either hopelessly out of touch with history (and/or reality), or they are so focused on trying to argue against "themepark" games that they have essentially discarded with facts and have opted to rely mainly on opinions.

So which is it?  Is the OP fracking insane, or just plain ignorant?  The world may never know.  Or care.

 

So Theme Park style MMOs were a new innovating thing, So why so much hatred towards TP mmos, when all I hear from these same people, is that they want innovation.

And to the people Saying EQ wasnt a TP mmo, I only got the info from another thread on here, as to the First Succesful TP MMO which many labled EQ.

 

And the agrument didnt have to be TP vs SB, literaly back then, it could have been, new style vs Current style, or something like that. In the OP, I didnt mean by Terms (Theme Park, and Sand Box). In another thread, I also heard EQ had hatred, when it reached the thrown of MMOs back in the day. There had to be a reason for this, when I still hear many old school mmo gamers, now days complain about the lack of new things, yet they also complained, when EQ tried something new and brached off into what we call TP mmos.

So just seems like no pleasing them, when they conplain both ways. Thats all

Because the TP forumla is the only forumla being used by big companies who can afford to get an MMO semi-right for launch are using. These companies listen solely to their investors who are mostly people who don't game (making money is their gaming) and only know of WoW. So they want the games they are backing to be like WoW (money earning wise) and from the limited "research they do they can look at an investment (what we call a game in development) and then "show concern" when it's not sounding like what WoW is doing.

I don't know if it's accurate to say most people hate (in an aggressive way) TP games as much as they hate the fact that companies are trying to chase WoW success and not a single company has come close. Most normal Joe gamers see that and wonder why in the hell all these "degreed professionals" can't see it and try to make something else and score big that way. Sandbox style games have only barely been touched on. The "potential" there with a well thought out game with loads and loads of detailed systems/mechanics is untapped. It's a Spindletop in the making.

Personally, I don't hate TP MMOS. That said, if we were seeing the same amount of Sandboxish MMOs being put out by well funded companies today as we do with the TP variety, I'd never buy another TP MMO again.

As I've said before, there are no true sandbox games.  An mmorpg that gives you total freedom to do what you want has never existed.  The closest I've ever seen in 10+ years of mmorpg gaming is second life, and that's considered to be more of a glorified chat room.  Every mmorpg since the first has been varying degrees of a themepark design.  If you apply the true definition of a sandbox mmo, you will find that none have ever fit the description.  "Hardcore" gamers like to call their game a sanbox and everyone elses preference a themepark in a vain attempt to seperate themselves from the filthy casual gaming masses.  The best you can do is pick a game that has the most features you like.  But don't lie to yourself that you're playing a true sandbox mmorpg.

Originally posted by tro44_1

1)How did EQ manage to get Sandbox to switch over to Theme Park mmos, back in the day?

2) Was EQ hated on by Sandbox fans, like they currently do now when it comes to WoW?

3) What do you think made the MMORPG industry convert over into Theme Park style, rather then sticking with the traditional Snadbox gaming, that many Old School MMO players enjoyed soo much?

 

I was wondering. How did EQ manage to be soo succesful as a more Theme Park oriented MMO, around the time that Sandbox Mmos were dominate? Anybod have an idea as to what unfolded during those ages?

You are assuming that circa March '99 when EQ launched "sandbox" meant anything at all. It did not. Actually the themepark style has far more pre-UO/EQ history than sandbox, none of the earliest graphical online RPGs were "sandbox". So EQ was not strange, it was actually more familiar to most players in terms of content and gameplay than UO.

So...

1. There was no "switch". Sandbox was not even an MMO term at the time.

2. EQ was not hated on by "sandbox fans", there was not very much cross game hate back then. People were more excited about new games than protective of old ones back in the late 90s.

3. Circa '99 when EQ launched sandbox was not "old school". Theme park was "old school". Look at all the MMO's and breakthrough online multi user RPG's that came before. Not a single one was sandbox. "Old school" was, and always will be, themepark. UO was the new kid on the block, and themepark was a brand new concept.

I think you have some of your basic conceptions about the development of the MMO world backwards. The mindset of the MMO community in the late 90s was vastly different than it is now, or even was five years ago.

Originally posted by altairzq

Originally posted by tro44_1

1)How did EQ manage to get Sandbox to switch over to Theme Park mmos, back in the day?

2) Was EQ hated on by Sandbox fans, like they currently do now when it comes to WoW?

3) What do you think made the MMORPG industry convert over into Theme Park style, rather then sticking with the traditional Snadbox gaming, that many Old School MMO players enjoyed soo much?

 

I was wondering. How did EQ manage to be soo succesful as a more Theme Park oriented MMO, around the time that Sandbox Mmos were dominate? Anybod have an idea as to what unfolded during those ages?

 

1) EQ wasn't a theme park when it first came out

2) I don't know.

3) SOE started turning EQ into a theme park in 2002

This is probably the best post on this subject that I've seen so far. The fact that you all seem to give a rat's ass about what's a TP or a SB amazes me to no end.

Is it fun?

Does it last?

Only factors for me. The rest means shiat.....

Originally posted by tro44_1

1)How did EQ manage to get Sandbox to switch over to Theme Park mmos, back in the day?

2) Was EQ hated on by Sandbox fans, like they currently do now when it comes to WoW?

3) What do you think made the MMORPG industry convert over into Theme Park style, rather then sticking with the traditional Snadbox gaming, that many Old School MMO players enjoyed soo much?

 

I was wondering. How did EQ manage to be soo succesful as a more Theme Park oriented MMO, around the time that Sandbox Mmos were dominate? Anybod have an idea as to what unfolded during those ages?

I wouldn't know, I wasn't playing mmos then, but I can only assume that's it because it was something new and appealed to everyone?

Originally posted by Eindrachen

Anyone who thinks that the "sandbox/themepark" debate even existed when EQ came out is either hopelessly out of touch with history (and/or reality), or they are so focused on trying to argue against "themepark" games that they have essentially discarded with facts and have opted to rely mainly on opinions.

So which is it?  Is the OP fracking insane, or just plain ignorant?  The world may never know.  Or care.

Sometimes people ask questions because they don't know the answer.  That obviously seems to be the case with the OP.

So rather than tossing a lot of quick insults, a ridiculously short and simple answer of "They didn't.  These concepts didn't exist back then." would answer the question without making you sound like a jackass.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Eindrachen

Anyone who thinks that the "sandbox/themepark" debate even existed when EQ came out is either hopelessly out of touch with history (and/or reality), or they are so focused on trying to argue against "themepark" games that they have essentially discarded with facts and have opted to rely mainly on opinions.

So which is it?  Is the OP fracking insane, or just plain ignorant?  The world may never know.  Or care.

 

Sometimes people ask questions because they don't know the answer.  That obviously seems to be the case with the OP.

So rather than tossing a lot of quick insults, a ridiculously short and simple answer of "They didn't.  These concepts didn't exist back then." would answer the question without making you sound like a jackass.

Then again, posting a supposedly intelligent thread on a hostile internet forum without using Google will make you look like a jackass.

Originally posted by Hrothmund

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Eindrachen

Anyone who thinks that the "sandbox/themepark" debate even existed when EQ came out is either hopelessly out of touch with history (and/or reality), or they are so focused on trying to argue against "themepark" games that they have essentially discarded with facts and have opted to rely mainly on opinions.

So which is it?  Is the OP fracking insane, or just plain ignorant?  The world may never know.  Or care.

 

Sometimes people ask questions because they don't know the answer.  That obviously seems to be the case with the OP.

So rather than tossing a lot of quick insults, a ridiculously short and simple answer of "They didn't.  These concepts didn't exist back then." would answer the question without making you sound like a jackass.

Then again, posting a supposedly intelligent thread on a hostile internet forum without using Google will make you look like a jackass.

^ This...and the fact that it's TODAY'S MMO PLAYER who even thought up this moronic argument in the first place.

Just play...stop bitching....

 I noticed alot of you descriping WoW and EVE as the two games that brought up the whole "themepark" and "sandbox" arguments. Thats just not true, as it was SWG that gave us a taste of what a TRUE sandbox should be then this "themepark" WoW came out 1 year later and over millions joined which caused SWG to convert from sandbox to themeark and it never survived the change. Just thought i'd inform the uninformed.

Originally posted by falc0n

 I noticed alot of you descriping WoW and EVE as the two games that brought up the whole "themepark" and "sandbox" arguments. Thats just not true, as it was SWG that gave us a taste of what a TRUE sandbox should be then this "themepark" WoW came out 1 year later and over millions joined which caused SWG to convert from sandbox to themeark and it never survived the change. Just thought i'd inform the uninformed.

Might be true...but still brings to us the jackass TP/SB argument. Which would never be if not for a bunch of bored MMO gamers.

I think it was Raph Koster who came up with the terms "Theme Park" and "Sandbox", or at least popularized them. When SWG was in development, he described the Rebel Base as a Theme Park, along with a few other areas of concentrated content.

So WoW may have created the most successful, and highly concentrated, theme park game, elements of Theme Park design had dawned in SWG, ironically enough.

1)How did EQ manage to get Sandbox to switch over to Theme Park mmos, back in the day?

        I think UO was the only other game out at this time? (maybe asherons call was as well) so people had a limited choice. they either went UO (which was only sandbox) or the very few theme park. and they were brand new so anything a person played had the shiny new "this is something ive never experienced before" thought.

2) Was EQ hated on by Sandbox fans, like they currently do now when it comes to WoW?

        No

3) What do you think made the MMORPG industry convert over into Theme Park style, rather then sticking with the traditional Snadbox gaming, that many Old School MMO players enjoyed soo much?

        No one could replicate UO. The customization, skills, ability to do ANYTHING in game... Its hard to do and keep it balanced but some how they managed it very nicely. The fact today is that sandbox games are niche and the player base is extremely small. This reason is why you dont get huge companies making them and have to rely on indie companies to make them (reason for this stated in last paragraph)

I was wondering. How did EQ manage to be soo succesful as a more Theme Park oriented MMO, around the time that Sandbox Mmos were dominate? Anybod have an idea as to what unfolded during those ages?
 

       As stated before, MMO's were new. People didn't know what to expect and anything was like holy crap this is amazing feel. EQ also was a huge time sink and addictive (hence the more common name  of "EverCrack"). Level cap took forever to reach, then came AA points which took just as long. New content being pumped out (which some can say ruined the game with all the elitism/lack of working on things that had already been put in). TONS of classes and races. It was a great game.

    No one could compete with what UO had done so no one tried. No new sandboxes = no new players being brought into it = sandbox games turning into a small niche because no one has effectively been able to rival what UO did 12 years ago. Its rather sad.

    Now with that said I will speak of why themeparks are what they are today....WoW has kind of ruined anyone who starts out with the game. People  have become pampered with all of the content in game and how extremely easy everything is to do. Most people dont take into consideration that WoW has had 7-8 years of polish, 2 expansions with a 3rd on the way, and literally millions and millions of dollars thrown at it. Most MMO's arent backed by the kind of money that blizzard has so the game is going to be seen as lacking, especially when people forget that the game they are hyping up/starting to play is BRAND NEW with just the basic game being released.

    The ease of use and simplicity of WoW (i think i read somewhere a person made his 5 or 6 year old brother grind for him....) brings in new people to the genre but they then are stuck on the "everything HAS to be as good or better than WoW or I wont play it" mentality. They dont give games a chance to grow before ditching them. When this happens games start to get their dev team torn apart to skeleton crews and then the polish and content that would normally be put in the game quickly with a full dev team comes out at a snails pace. WoW effectively ruins new games because of the mind set most people have after playing it. WoW is the bane of the modern day mmo release.

I think it's a stereotype or simple elitism that makes everyone harp on how easy or dumbed down WoW is.  Anyone that has played mmorpgs for years will think any mmorpg is easy.  WoW has some fairly complicated content.  Some gamers have gotten it down to a science.  When they discuss stats and how wearing this affects that or the percentages of something or whatever, it comes out like rocket science.  Your basic 5 year old may be able to approach a mob and spam a button, but they won't be able to coordinate their role during a raid or even a run of the mill dungeon.  I'm not a WoW fanboi but when I read "hardcore" gamers talking about how you can solo in WoW all the way to level cap, or you can reach endgame in 3 days, I have to call foul.  Everytime I read an anti WoW post WoW gets easier and easier.  I wander if by easy some mean that theres no wandering around trying to figure out what to do next?  It is a linear game.  Theres no argument.    But I think people, in an effort to sound "hardcore" exagerrate what they consider negative aspects of WoW gameplay quite a bit

People need to relize that back then its was basically UO and EQ. There were fans of both or either, back then the choices were so limited there was not much bitching about anything hence the communities where awsome. Todays times, like people QQ and are entitled to everything. That is part of the reason original palyers of those games say there were some of the best times ever in MMO history. Amazing what happens when more and more people are involved in somthing. The more poeple the worse it is. Or is it the type of people?

One thing I have noticed different that has changed from the days of EQ, is the player base now is super lazy and arrogant. No one wants their game they play monthly for to have any challenge or take any amount of time to achieve goals in. I find it silly. 

I still remember the day I first set foot in Qeynos and fought those rats/snakes and eventually skellies and onto Blackburrow. I guess I'll never feel that way again playing an mmorpg.

The use of the terms Themepark and Sandbox have degraded into meaningless labels that are used more often to deride or cast aspersions onto a product than to be used to accurately describe a product. Using either term for any product generally does the product a disservice and isn't fully accurate as every game has aspects of both to them. Using labels is an easy way and a lazy way to describe something without having to go to the effort of actually understanding it or even knowing anything about it.

Most of the people tossing these terms around are more interested in pushing a point of view and not actually discussing aspects of a specific game so it is easier to deride a game by using a label instead of actually providing meaningful disscussion.

Just because a game has levels and classes doesnt always mean it has to be a 'themepark' MMO.

Look at old school EQ. The game had levels and classes, but it wasnt a game that told you were to go and what to do. It was really up to the player to discover these things. Thats where the whole 'themepark' theme doesnt work.

A 'Themepark' MMO works like an actual themepark. You start at the entrance gate, are handed a map and follow a pretty distinct path through the park and end up at the exit. If you start to feel lost you can ask someone where you are and how to get to the next ride.

Now back to EQ. While EQ had a lot of what people consider to be 'themepark' the game really didnt lead you anywhere. Hell, sometimes even going from a starting zone to the next zone over led you from a lvl 1-10 area to a lvl 30-40 area. Point is, no NPC or map in the game told you where to progress to next. Does that make EQ a 'sandbox' style game? Not really, but no where near what is a true 'Themepark'.

Even most of the games that came after EQ really didnt fit the whole 'themepark' theme. Sure they had levels and some even had quests. But the games were designed in a way that made the players explore the game and find the fun/challenge.

When WoW came out is when we started seeing the essence of what a 'themepark' game is. Blizzard designed WoW to be easier for people to jump into, and took a lot of player thinking out of the game. It was designed to allow a player to just hop in and play without having to learn a ton of mechanics. The layout of the game helped people progress easily from area to area, hiding a road map in teh questing system. The whole point of exploration was removed, left instead with a GPS and gas station attendants pointing you onward to your next destination. This is what made WoW popular to the masses. It was a game that really involved little thought and allowed people to have fun from start to finish. It also was far more forgiving in its playstyle than most MMOs that came before it.

Was it a bad thing? Of course not. Did WoW ruin the MMO genre? Again, no.

If anything you can blame the players and a lot of the MMO design teams for the current state of MMOs.

Take players for example. The players will complain about the way a game is designed and often complain about how its "Just like WoW". But when these players are given a game that tries to be different, they whine and complain that "WoW had this and you should too". And I am not talking about polish here. They ask for features that made WoW the game they didnt really enjoy. Once the devs start to cave in on these demands, the players start to call the game a WoW clone. Its a never ending cycle.

As for the teams that design MMOs, they tend to be a bit more at fault. They aim to make a game and will try to bring in as many players as they can from the start. But in most cases they do so by asking themselves "What Would Blizzard Do...". Its alright to try to figure out what the other guy did to make his game work, but most times they end up being way off base. They look at the current incarnation of the game and start from there. Instead of looking back at the reasons why Blizzard chose the path they did when making WoW, they focus on what WoW is and start building their game on that. Thing is, most people playing WoW do so because newer games coming out feel more like a copy (often times a bad one) of the game they are currently playing, so why bother switching?

You cannot compare the mentality of gaming from back in the EQ days with now a days kids roaming around in games.

Back in those days it was VERY few who had high speed internet and/or could afford it,so it was usually the more mature minded people playing.

There was no care about PVP or looking beyond to end game and again worrying about PVP,people joined for the excitement of exploring the game and what it had to offer.The pvp minded people were playing things like Doom and Wolfenstein,Quake,UT99 came out the same year,that is where PVP players were.

I think too many developers got the wrong impression about gaming and MMO's from the early days because ,there was not that many gamers in general.so a game like AO may have been a big hit if released the same time WOW was.

It is only the last few years that people are trying to dissect games into what works and what does not,this is all false reasoning,it is not the reason for failure or crying,the reason lies within the individual,imo most are not gamers,they are egotistical people looking for a platform to brag or show off.In the old days that is where PVP people went to show they were better/more skilled,PVE games like EQ were about the exact opposite,it did not matter what type of MMO it was as long as it was not PVP based.

EQ offered that GIANT world that left tons of room for non linear exploration,something PVP games lacked.