Yamota, EVE is a sandbox game. you set your own goals. you measure your own success. some people are happy by doing a mission a day. some are happy with afk mining. others are happy with 100 page spreadsheets. few are only happy with 1000 member alliance at their disposal. all of them are successful. they don't have to be best at everything. just good at what they enjoy.

Originally posted by jayanti

To the OP

 It's the nature of all games, that those with more skill, understanding of the game, and "time on their hands" will ultimately do better than those who dont play alot, and dont understand the game mechanics properly. MMO's highlight this point much more because so many people are playing together.

It's not just PVP games where this is obvious. Any MMO you look at will have those with more understanding of the game, and more time, at the top of the heap (best gear, most cash etc). Full PVP games like EvE and Darkfall are at the very top of showing this - as those who do not understand the games, and dont have the time to learn the skills, will be the "victims" or the "underclass" of the game - unless they are in a big powerful guild and have friends to look out for them. 

Just like in Real Life - those with the skills, the understanding, and who put in the hours, will do better than those who sit on their arse and dont bother. It's what makes MMO's so much fun, and thankfully, theres not much anyone can do about it... unless, I guess, someone makes a game that gives everyone the same gear, the same amount of cash, and an "AutoAim/Fire" system with a guaranteed kill amount per day. Which would be reallllly dull.

Beside the RL remark, as I see a huge difference between a game and RL. Then ofcourse for all games there is a set of skills that make you better. For example in a pure FPS game it is basically only your PvP skills that decide who wins. Also in other FFA PvP MMORPGs, such as Asherons Call DT, it was primarily your PvP skills that decided if you were successful or not.

In Eve it seems to be alot more factors. Main one being if you can get your hands on enough ISK to last a war (where you tend to lose ships, no matter how good you are). And the skills required for that is completely different from PvP skills which I was expecting Eve to be all about. It is not (despite of some in this thread refusing to acknowledge that ISK is a major factor in PvP (observer major does not equal only factor)).

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Camthylion

what a couple of you bum trolls fail to understand in this post is the normal joe shmoe who has to work 6 days a week 10 hour days and has a wife and kids dont have time like the guy who lives off his parents and sits at home all day playing games building up his bank box... its a game its not real life and its suppose to be equally fun for all not just the dork without a life who plays games 12-15 hours a day!  thats when it becomes unfair but again this is why eve and games like df aren't that successful at all those who work and have less time to put into a game isnt going to join a gaming society like those we will leave that to the fanboys and the gaming addicted trolls.

 

hate one me all you want imo you can lick my sweaty ball sac because thats truth

I would not used the words you did but yes, that is what I am saying. 

I am working 60 hours per week and as such does not have endless time to spend  infront of computer and I would bet that most Eve players are like that.

Please post the ship and fit that you believe could not be killed or driven off by 2 cheaply fitted T1 ships.

Originally posted by spinner_vis

Yamota, EVE is a sandbox game. you set your own goals. you measure your own success. some people are happy by doing a mission a day. some are happy with afk mining. others are happy with 100 page spreadsheets. few are only happy with 1000 member alliance at their disposal. all of them are successful. they don't have to be best at everything. just good at what they enjoy.

Well the problem is that I like to do PvP and to get good in PvP you need to engage in it, alot, and I simply cannot afford that so I have very little PvP experience as a result.

But I am starting to understand that PvP in Eve is not only about PvP but rather that you need a set of skills beside flying your ship to be successful because when all is said and done you need experience to be good at anything and PvP experience means you will die alot, when you are inexperienced, and I do not have the ISK to support that (except flying around in a T1 frigate which I dont find particulary fun).

So Eve is not a pure PvP game and would probably explain why I could not ever get into it even though PvP is what I like to do most in MMORPGs and hence why Eve is not my cup of tea.

don't think of PVP as just ship combat. buying stuff at 10k and selling it for 100k is pure PVP. just because hit points are measured in ISK doesn't make any difference :)

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

---

Originally posted by Yamota
 You guys are completely missing the point. You have turned this into something personal where you are "uber" and make alot of ISK because you know what you are doing and I do not. E-peening I guess would be common in a very competetive MMORPGs.
However this thread is not about me or you but rather the fact that in Eve there are few that has alot of cash (billions) and as such has a huge advantage in PvP, since if they die they can just get right back in, where as most others do not.
That is fine in real life but you know this is a game, right? So even though the system support the select few that can deem themselves "superior, as is evident in this very thread, it does not support the majority of players who wants to get into PvP but does not have the means (ISK) to do so.
That in turn restricts the PvP to few people where as a PvP focused game should instead try to include as many as possible. So what I am trying to say is that Eves PvP is exclusive (it excludes people who arent rich) rather than being inclusive so that even poor people can engage into it (besides being a tackler in a T1 frigate).

---

 

We are not missing anything, you are just trying to make a point about something you have no clue of...

If you do not have time to grind and don't have witt to make ISK efficiently, you should not be flying expensive ships and fits.
That is not restrictive mechanics, it is the rewarding those who deserves it.

EVE does not provide you with instant gratification or reward players regardless their skills. If that is what you need, then EVE is not a game for you.

What is it I dont have a clue of?

That most people are in high sec space?

That death penalty in Eve is high (basically full loot type system) and that is the reason why most people are in high sec space?

That many people that do engage in PvP are flying cheap ships even though they have the skills for more expensive ones?

That the people that do have the money to lose expensive ships are flying around in ones and mopping the floor with others who do not (or do not have friends that are flying around in expensive ships)?

Please enlighten me what I have no clue about. I have been playing Eve on and of since the release in 2003 and even though I dont know many details, such as how to get rich and what not, the basic concept of the game has been the same.

As you have said multiple times yourself, a small minority of players are able to acumulate a large amount of cash in the game. So what are the chances of you encountering those few people in the games universe? According to you most people are not able to make as much money.......so it stands to reason that most of the people you encounter in the game will be flying cheaper ships just like yourself.......so whats the problem? According to you the poor players vastly outnumber the rich players anway as only "a select few" can become rich.......which is bollocks by the way but I'm just going along with your twisted viewpoint.

Basicly your complaint is that people who have lots of time to devote to the game have the opportunity to become richer and have access to bigger and better ships. Your complaint is that this is unfair. You believe that you should be able to play the game for a few hours and yet have access to everything that a player who has dedicated lots of time to the game has. Well THAT would be massively unfair.

So what do you want exactly? Do you want the ability to acquire money to be removed from the game? Should everyone be given 1 type of ship to "make it fair"? How would you suggest that players gain access to bigger and better ships? Even if you do remove money from the game, there still has to be something that determines when or how people gain more powerful ships? So what then? Make each sector only allow certain ship types? In other words remove player freedom simply to please people who cant handle losing some pixels? Do you want the death penalty to be removed so when your ship blows up it magically reappears at a station? Do you want the game to be dumbed down and simplified just so that people like yourself who dont have much spare time can hop into the game and get a false sense of satisfaction at blowing up players without there being any risk to yourself?

EvE is one of the few MMOs on the market where players have to take a risk when engaging other players in PvP. When you fly out into deep space you never know what you are going to be up against. You might encounter a lone player in a cheap ship who is easy pickings.......or you might encounter a fleet of battleships that could blow you to bits in a few moments. How you deal with that is entirely up to you. You can stay and fight......or you can try and escape......or you can call on the assistance of team mates......or you can do any number of other things. Everyone is free to choose whatever course of action they like to deal with any situation. You can even take out those big bad nasty ships if you are sensible and co-ordinate your actions with others. I bet you just play the game solo all the time right?

This level of freedom in an MMO is a rare thing. You however dont like it. You view it all as "me vs each other individual" like most solo-centric games. You think you cant achieve anything in the game because there are big bad meanies with lots of money who will ruin your fun with their big ships.......and yet its not simply "you vs everyone else". You have the freedom to use your brain to deal with any situation and yet your are too lazy to take action. Why cant you do what other players do and join a corporation? Its an MMO for god sake! I bet you fly around on your own in deep space and then get annoyed because a player in a better ship blows you up.

You want everyone to be on equal terms regardless of how much time they invest in the game? Well its never going to happen. There are however LOTS of MMOs available that have risk free PvP where zero effort is required. Why dont you just play one of those and stop complaining about a game where player decisions actually matter? EvE is an MMO where a heavy time investment is required. However if you dont have much time to spare you can still survive in the game if you are careful, make the right decisions and work with others. However dont expect special treatment just because your time is limited. There are plenty of people playing EvE that dont have much time to commit to it just like yourself. Complaining that its unfair is just daft and pointless. Gdemami is correct. If you want PvP to be fair and equal regardless of how much time or effort you put into the game then EvE simply isnt the game for you.

Originally posted by spinner_vis

don't think of PVP as just ship combat. buying stuff at 10k and selling it for 100k is pure PVP. just because your hit points are measured in ISK doesn't make any difference :)

Yeah excactly. In Eve it is like that but it is not clearly visible. One could assume that PvP would mean ships vs ships, duking it out. However as you say ISK is like the HPs for PvP and how to get ISK requires skills that are far different from your traditional PvP game.

That could be a good tip for new players. PvP is not all about combat but also about the ability to gain ISK and best way to gain cash in this game seems to have little to do with PvP combat. It seems to do alot more with buying low and selling high, manufacturing, mining etc.

So I guess the question is then, can you get a steady income in Eve by doing nothing but combat? Level 3 missions gave me maybe 20 M/hour and I would consider that quite low. Tried 0.0 ratting and it gave me maybe 50 M/hour, still quite low. However I could not get alot of experience there due to PC pirates. Will try again, now that I am in 0.0 corp, to see if you can get good enough ISK income to get valuable PvP experience.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by spinner_vis

Yamota, EVE is a sandbox game. you set your own goals. you measure your own success. some people are happy by doing a mission a day. some are happy with afk mining. others are happy with 100 page spreadsheets. few are only happy with 1000 member alliance at their disposal. all of them are successful. they don't have to be best at everything. just good at what they enjoy.

Well the problem is that I like to do PvP and to get good in PvP you need to engage in it, alot, and I simply cannot afford that so I have very little PvP experience as a result.

But I am starting to understand that PvP in Eve is not only about PvP but rather that you need a set of skills beside flying your ship to be successful because when all is said and done you need experience to be good at anything and PvP experience means you will die alot, when you are inexperienced, and I do not have the ISK to support that (except flying around in a T1 frigate which I dont find particulary fun).

So Eve is not a pure PvP game and would probably explain why I could not ever get into it even though PvP is what I like to do most in MMORPGs and hence why Eve is not my cup of tea.

It took you 6 years to reach this conclusion? Thats impressive.

Originally posted by neonwire

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

---

Originally posted by Yamota
 You guys are completely missing the point. You have turned this into something personal where you are "uber" and make alot of ISK because you know what you are doing and I do not. E-peening I guess would be common in a very competetive MMORPGs.
However this thread is not about me or you but rather the fact that in Eve there are few that has alot of cash (billions) and as such has a huge advantage in PvP, since if they die they can just get right back in, where as most others do not.
That is fine in real life but you know this is a game, right? So even though the system support the select few that can deem themselves "superior, as is evident in this very thread, it does not support the majority of players who wants to get into PvP but does not have the means (ISK) to do so.
That in turn restricts the PvP to few people where as a PvP focused game should instead try to include as many as possible. So what I am trying to say is that Eves PvP is exclusive (it excludes people who arent rich) rather than being inclusive so that even poor people can engage into it (besides being a tackler in a T1 frigate).

---

 

We are not missing anything, you are just trying to make a point about something you have no clue of...

If you do not have time to grind and don't have witt to make ISK efficiently, you should not be flying expensive ships and fits.
That is not restrictive mechanics, it is the rewarding those who deserves it.

EVE does not provide you with instant gratification or reward players regardless their skills. If that is what you need, then EVE is not a game for you.

What is it I dont have a clue of?

That most people are in high sec space?

That death penalty in Eve is high (basically full loot type system) and that is the reason why most people are in high sec space?

That many people that do engage in PvP are flying cheap ships even though they have the skills for more expensive ones?

That the people that do have the money to lose expensive ships are flying around in ones and mopping the floor with others who do not (or do not have friends that are flying around in expensive ships)?

Please enlighten me what I have no clue about. I have been playing Eve on and of since the release in 2003 and even though I dont know many details, such as how to get rich and what not, the basic concept of the game has been the same.

 

As you have said multiple times yourself, a small minority of players are able to acumulate a large amount of cash in the game. So what are the chances of you encountering those few people in the games universe? According to you most people are not able to make as much money.......so it stands to reason that most of the people you encounter in the game will be flying cheaper ships just like yourself.......so whats the problem? According to you the poor players vastly outnumber the rich players anway as only "a select few" can become rich.......which is bollocks by the way but I'm just going along with your twisted viewpoint.

Basicly your complaint is that people who have lots of time to devote to the game have the opportunity to become richer and have access to bigger and better ships. Your complaint is that this is unfair. You believe that you should be able to play the game for a few hours and yet have access to everything that a player who has dedicated lots of time to the game has. Well THAT would be massively unfair.

So what do you want exactly? Do you want the ability to acquire money to be removed from the game? Should everyone be given 1 type of ship to "make it fair"? How would you suggest that players gain access to bigger and better ships? Even if you do remove money from the game, there still has to be something that determines when or how people gain more powerful ships? So what then? Make each sector only allow certain ship types? In other words remove player freedom simply to please people who cant handle losing some pixels? Do you want the death penalty to be removed so when your ship blows up it magically reappears at a station? Do you want the game to be dumbed down and simplified just so that people like yourself who dont have much spare time can hop into the game and get a false sense of satisfaction at blowing up players without there being any risk to yourself?

EvE is one of the few MMOs on the market where players have to take a risk when engaging other players in PvP. When you fly out into deep space you never know what you are going to be up against. You might encounter a lone player in a cheap ship who is easy pickings.......or you might encounter a fleet of battleships that could blow you to bits in a few moments. How you deal with that is entirely up to you. You can stay and fight......or you can try and escape......or you can call on the assistance of team mates......or you can do any number of other things. Everyone is free to choose whatever course of action they like to deal with any situation. You can even take out those big bad nasty ships if you are sensible and co-ordinate your actions with others. I bet you just play the game solo all the time right?

This level of freedom in an MMO is a rare thing. You however dont like it. You view it all as "me vs each other individual" like most solo-centric games. You think you cant achieve anything in the game because there are big bad meanies with lots of money who will ruin your fun with their big ships.......and yet its not simply "you vs everyone else". You have the freedom to use your brain to deal with any situation and yet your are too lazy to take action. Why cant you do what other players do and join a corporation? Its an MMO for god sake! I bet you fly around on your own in deep space and then get annoyed because a player in a better ship blows you up.

You want everyone to be on equal terms regardless of how much time they invest in the game? Well its never going to happen. There are however LOTS of MMOs available that have risk free PvP where zero effort is required. Why dont you just play one of those and stop complaining about a game where player decisions actually matter? EvE is an MMO where a heavy time investment is required. However if you dont have much time to spare you can still survive in the game if you are careful, make the right decisions and work with others. However dont expect special treatment just because your time is limited. There are plenty of people playing EvE that dont have much time to commit to it just like yourself. Complaining that its unfair is just daft and pointless. Gdemami is correct. If you want PvP to be fair and equal regardless of how much time or effort you put into the game then EvE simply isnt the game for you.

Amazing how people are incapable of seeing nuances but just sees things in black and white. PvP or no PvP. Lose everything when you die or lose nothing when you die. PvP is either fair and equal or completely unfair and unequal. Either remove ability to aquire money or keep it the way it is. 0 or 100, black or white.

You talk to me like I have never played an FFA PvP game before. I have played many, the best being Asherons Call DT and where as that game was FFA PvP it was not lose everything when you die but rather lose enough when you die to make it matter. Also equipment in that game mattered some but mostly it was about your skills (player and character).

But to answer your question (if they were questions, sounded more like statements where you are saying how I am and feel). I want the freedom to do things in an MMORPG, I want there to be consequenes for dying. However I do think the game would benefit from adjusting the penalty downwards so what when you lose a BS you dont need to spend several hours, grinding level 3 missions to get it back. 

Other than that I think Eve is a good game. But no, it is not for me right? Because I think the death penalty needs some adjustment?

Is it the same for any aspect of the game? If people find that the UI needs improvment then Eve is not for them as well? 

Nothing in like is perfect and very few things are black and white.

It is called balance and nuances of grey.

Finally: I am in a corp but that does not make me think that the death penalty is just right.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by spinner_vis

don't think of PVP as just ship combat. buying stuff at 10k and selling it for 100k is pure PVP. just because your hit points are measured in ISK doesn't make any difference :)

Yeah excactly. In Eve it is like that but it is not clearly visible. One could assume that PvP would mean ships vs ships, duking it out. However as you say ISK is like the HPs for PvP and how to get ISK requires skills that are far different from your traditional PvP game.

That could be a good tip for new players. PvP is not all about combat but also about the ability to gain ISK and best way to gain cash in this game seems to have little to do with PvP combat. It seems to do alot more with buying low and selling high, manufacturing, mining etc.

So I guess the question is then, can you get a steady income in Eve by doing nothing but combat? Level 3 missions gave me maybe 20 M/hour and I would consider that quite low. Tried 0.0 ratting and it gave me maybe 50 M/hour, still quite low. However I could not get alot of experience there due to PC pirates. Will try again, now that I am in 0.0 corp, to see if you can get good enough ISK income to get valuable PvP experience.

I think you're on the right track there. Rather than complaining you are being positive and thinking proactively. You are looking at all the different facets of the game and the effects all those things have on the encounters between players. You're seeing that PvP in EVE is more than just ships fighting each other.

Damn you're making me think about giving the game another try myself now. Hmmm......I shall resist......for now.

Originally posted by neonwire

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by spinner_vis

Yamota, EVE is a sandbox game. you set your own goals. you measure your own success. some people are happy by doing a mission a day. some are happy with afk mining. others are happy with 100 page spreadsheets. few are only happy with 1000 member alliance at their disposal. all of them are successful. they don't have to be best at everything. just good at what they enjoy.

Well the problem is that I like to do PvP and to get good in PvP you need to engage in it, alot, and I simply cannot afford that so I have very little PvP experience as a result.

But I am starting to understand that PvP in Eve is not only about PvP but rather that you need a set of skills beside flying your ship to be successful because when all is said and done you need experience to be good at anything and PvP experience means you will die alot, when you are inexperienced, and I do not have the ISK to support that (except flying around in a T1 frigate which I dont find particulary fun).

So Eve is not a pure PvP game and would probably explain why I could not ever get into it even though PvP is what I like to do most in MMORPGs and hence why Eve is not my cup of tea.

 

It took you 6 years to reach this conclusion? Thats impressive.

Did not play for 6 years. I played a total of maybe 3-4 months, spread out over 6 years.

Have been waiting for the PvP to become more available without requiring a big grinding/farming of ISK. But it seems that this is an inherent aspect of the game which will not change since the economy depends on it.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by neonwire

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

---

Originally posted by Yamota
 You guys are completely missing the point. You have turned this into something personal where you are "uber" and make alot of ISK because you know what you are doing and I do not. E-peening I guess would be common in a very competetive MMORPGs.
However this thread is not about me or you but rather the fact that in Eve there are few that has alot of cash (billions) and as such has a huge advantage in PvP, since if they die they can just get right back in, where as most others do not.
That is fine in real life but you know this is a game, right? So even though the system support the select few that can deem themselves "superior, as is evident in this very thread, it does not support the majority of players who wants to get into PvP but does not have the means (ISK) to do so.
That in turn restricts the PvP to few people where as a PvP focused game should instead try to include as many as possible. So what I am trying to say is that Eves PvP is exclusive (it excludes people who arent rich) rather than being inclusive so that even poor people can engage into it (besides being a tackler in a T1 frigate).

---

 

We are not missing anything, you are just trying to make a point about something you have no clue of...

If you do not have time to grind and don't have witt to make ISK efficiently, you should not be flying expensive ships and fits.
That is not restrictive mechanics, it is the rewarding those who deserves it.

EVE does not provide you with instant gratification or reward players regardless their skills. If that is what you need, then EVE is not a game for you.

What is it I dont have a clue of?

That most people are in high sec space?

That death penalty in Eve is high (basically full loot type system) and that is the reason why most people are in high sec space?

That many people that do engage in PvP are flying cheap ships even though they have the skills for more expensive ones?

That the people that do have the money to lose expensive ships are flying around in ones and mopping the floor with others who do not (or do not have friends that are flying around in expensive ships)?

Please enlighten me what I have no clue about. I have been playing Eve on and of since the release in 2003 and even though I dont know many details, such as how to get rich and what not, the basic concept of the game has been the same.

 

As you have said multiple times yourself, a small minority of players are able to acumulate a large amount of cash in the game. So what are the chances of you encountering those few people in the games universe? According to you most people are not able to make as much money.......so it stands to reason that most of the people you encounter in the game will be flying cheaper ships just like yourself.......so whats the problem? According to you the poor players vastly outnumber the rich players anway as only "a select few" can become rich.......which is bollocks by the way but I'm just going along with your twisted viewpoint.

Basicly your complaint is that people who have lots of time to devote to the game have the opportunity to become richer and have access to bigger and better ships. Your complaint is that this is unfair. You believe that you should be able to play the game for a few hours and yet have access to everything that a player who has dedicated lots of time to the game has. Well THAT would be massively unfair.

So what do you want exactly? Do you want the ability to acquire money to be removed from the game? Should everyone be given 1 type of ship to "make it fair"? How would you suggest that players gain access to bigger and better ships? Even if you do remove money from the game, there still has to be something that determines when or how people gain more powerful ships? So what then? Make each sector only allow certain ship types? In other words remove player freedom simply to please people who cant handle losing some pixels? Do you want the death penalty to be removed so when your ship blows up it magically reappears at a station? Do you want the game to be dumbed down and simplified just so that people like yourself who dont have much spare time can hop into the game and get a false sense of satisfaction at blowing up players without there being any risk to yourself?

EvE is one of the few MMOs on the market where players have to take a risk when engaging other players in PvP. When you fly out into deep space you never know what you are going to be up against. You might encounter a lone player in a cheap ship who is easy pickings.......or you might encounter a fleet of battleships that could blow you to bits in a few moments. How you deal with that is entirely up to you. You can stay and fight......or you can try and escape......or you can call on the assistance of team mates......or you can do any number of other things. Everyone is free to choose whatever course of action they like to deal with any situation. You can even take out those big bad nasty ships if you are sensible and co-ordinate your actions with others. I bet you just play the game solo all the time right?

This level of freedom in an MMO is a rare thing. You however dont like it. You view it all as "me vs each other individual" like most solo-centric games. You think you cant achieve anything in the game because there are big bad meanies with lots of money who will ruin your fun with their big ships.......and yet its not simply "you vs everyone else". You have the freedom to use your brain to deal with any situation and yet your are too lazy to take action. Why cant you do what other players do and join a corporation? Its an MMO for god sake! I bet you fly around on your own in deep space and then get annoyed because a player in a better ship blows you up.

You want everyone to be on equal terms regardless of how much time they invest in the game? Well its never going to happen. There are however LOTS of MMOs available that have risk free PvP where zero effort is required. Why dont you just play one of those and stop complaining about a game where player decisions actually matter? EvE is an MMO where a heavy time investment is required. However if you dont have much time to spare you can still survive in the game if you are careful, make the right decisions and work with others. However dont expect special treatment just because your time is limited. There are plenty of people playing EvE that dont have much time to commit to it just like yourself. Complaining that its unfair is just daft and pointless. Gdemami is correct. If you want PvP to be fair and equal regardless of how much time or effort you put into the game then EvE simply isnt the game for you.

Amazing how people are incapable of seeing nuances but just sees things in black and white. PvP or no PvP. Lose everything when you die or lose nothing when you die. PvP is either fair and equal or completely unfair and unequal. Either remove ability to aquire money or keep it the way it is. 0 or 100, black or white.

You talk to me like I have never played an FFA PvP game before. I have played many, the best being Asherons Call DT and where as that game was FFA PvP it was not lose everything when you die but rather lose enough when you die to make it matter. Also equipment in that game mattered some but mostly it was about your skills (player and character).

But to answer your question (if they were questions, sounded more like statements where you are saying how I am and feel). I want the freedom to do things in an MMORPG, I want there to be consequenes for dying. However I do think the game would benefit from adjusting the penalty downwards so what when you lose a BS you dont need to spend several hours, grinding level 3 missions to get it back. 

Other than that I think Eve is a good game. But no, it is not for me right? Because I think the death penalty needs some adjustment?

Is it the same for any aspect of the game? If people find that the UI needs improvment then Eve is not for them as well? 

Nothing in like is perfect and very few things are black and white.

It is called balance and nuances of grey.

Finally: I am in a corp but that does not make me think that the death penalty is just right.

Apologies I worded that lot a bit harshly. Bad habit of mine. Sorry about that.

Actually I do sort of see your point about the penalty perhaps being too harsh.......but then again its completely circumstantial. The choice is always entirely up to the player. Losing that BS may well be costly but how costly it is depends on how quickly a player can make money. You dont have to grind level 3 missions. Surely there are other ways of making money? Thats up to you to find out I suppose. I guess this is why so many people spend years playing the game and yet still find themselves continually learning new things.

with 20-50 mil mil ISK it's possible to fit T1 BC/BS with T2 stuff, maybe even get rigs. it takes bit more for actual hull, but that's covered by insurance later on. that's good level of income. more is possible but requires better skill and more ISK/gear. T2 ships are more expensive, but are by no means a requirement.

It is kinda funny to read this thread after all the threads about how EVE is a casual friendly game that requires nothing of the player and that most players just log in to train skills.

You say CCP could encourage pvp by creating a more even playing field and reducing the isk grind. Cleary there is some truth to this statement as this approach is taken by many games.

However you fail to recognize that by adding risk and expense to the game CCP has given PVP real meaning and enjoyment for a steadily growing fan base. If a space ship game in an open universe used your approach I doubt it would experience continual growth, and we would not be having this conversation.

Beyond this, I think you are clearly wrong about one thing. From your OP: "most people (in PvP), are using cheap ships/equipment where as the rich guys are sitting in T2 Ships, Battleships and Carriers with T2/Faction modules."

This has not been my experience at all. What I see is that people with wealth and experience are using it to learn very specialized aspects of the game, and usually flying much cheaper ships than they can afford to add risk and excitement to the game. Victory is always dependent on finding the right situation in which to engage. Choose right and victory; choose wrong toast. If you choose wrong it's not like you were flying a T2 fitted BS, so you take the lesson and reload.

I was in a a small gang the other night with 2 T2 cruisers and a cloaked stealth bomber. We found 2 BS's and came up with a plan and went for it. We made a mistake in team speak and the stealth bomber uncloaked too soon and we had to retreat losing a cruiser. We could have been flying anything and I'm sure we could have easily out DPS them in three T2 BS's, but what fun would that have been. Each of use was working on very specialized aspects of the game and wanted too try them out together. (Cloaked stealth bomber / Energy Destabilization/ Sentry Drones) The risk of failure and real loss, or real victory was what was driving us.
 

 This thread seems to be criticism one of the things that EVE does best. It's not like Darkfall were every one fights naked. Flying in a frig or cheap ship is a viable strategy and you are still playing the game, unlike Darkfall players who play naked.

The OP seems to think there is a pre-set goal in EVE (IE flying expensive ships), this is not true. The fact that there are no goals in this game and some people play it very differently, is one if it's biggest successes. 

i use GTCs to pay for my stuff, and i usually buy 1 a month to supplement my BCs with T2 fittings. I havent bought a GTC though in about a month and a half so far, so i look at it as me learning more and dieing less. I hope to eventually get completely away from GTC's through a mining alt or just hope piracy pays the bills like it has been for the past month. If you work 60 hours a week, 35$ shouldnt be that much to pay so you dont have to bother with grinding isk. It sucks, but tbh you have to adapt or quit. If you dont like grinding isk, there are GTCs, if you dont like those then well you better get good at pvp and quit dieing.

Originally posted by Yamota

Is that how it is meant to be and how is that a good thing? 

humans done that for thousands of years so is ok in games

also there is no good/bad everything is relative

Originally posted by Yamota

So what you are saying is that the high death penalty is what fuels the economy? Yeah I heard that and I guess that would make sense.

But then the game would not be about PvP then would it but rather about who is the best manufacturer, industrialist and/or researcher. You could be awesome in PvP but terrible in economics and trade and that would mean you would suck at Eve because you cannot afford to die.

I think this thread has reached a logical conclusion. Eve is not, primarily about PvP, but rather about economics, research, resource mining and other things not directly related to PvP. Makes sense then to have a high death penalty then, I guess.

Yahtzee!  You nailed it on the head, while EVE revolves around PVP, it is not primarily a PVP game. It is a world (or rather universe) simulator and victory comes in many forms.  To truly succeed in EVE I've always felt a player must master all 3 legs of the triangle, PVP, Economics and Diplomacy.  Sure you can do w/o one of them, but your gaming experience will suffer because of it.

If you find the right alliance, they'll actually pay for your PVP ships using the income they generate from their commercial ventures, be it moon mining, T2 production or some other method.

But you will have to pay your dues first, and no, you can't jump into the PVP feet first without learning the tricks of the trade. (though if you use those diplomatic skills right, you could pull it off)

In the end, EVE is about not dying, and at the same time, making sure the other guy dies instead.  The entire model is based on minimizing risk vs reward.  I sometimes fly a T1 Blackbird, and other times a T2 Falcon.  Both accomplish the same task, one slightly better than the other (both are jamming ships) all depends how likely I think my fleet is going to win the engagement.

Many players are much bigger risk takers than me, and throw themselves into battle regularly with everything they have.....its just their nature and they get to play EVE the way they enjoy.

But yeah, if you really want to just PVP w/o doing the other two legs, GTC/plexes are they way many players go and they can skip all the boring PVE stuff.

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Originally posted by Yamota

But I am starting to understand that PvP in Eve is not only about PvP but rather that you need a set of skills beside flying your ship to be successful because when all is said and done you need experience to be good at anything and PvP experience means you will die alot, when you are inexperienced, and I do not have the ISK to support that (except flying around in a T1 frigate which I dont find particulary fun).

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So what is stopping me? Well for one the fact that my clone even without any implants cost 20m isk. If I get caught in a bubble in 0.0 that is my minimum loss. So the relative isk loss off getting killed while in a t1 or a t2 frigate are more or less the same.

The second reason is that I mainly do small gang pvp flying with friends and if I fly a t1 cruiser when I have the skill and isk to fly a t2 battle-cruiser I feel I let my friends down. Their survivability goes down because of my choice, even if it's just by a small amount.

But yeah I would love to go back to the days when a t1 cruiser was the ship that people would expect you to show up in.

I play EVE every day, I've been a part of the minmatar militia for the better part of a year and have flown many different types of ships.  One strategy we use is flying cheap ships when we know theres a lot of risk simply because we don't want to lose our shiny ships.  I am by no means a wealthy player, and I fly a wolf or hound at all times, usually with no isk whatsoever to replace my ship if its lost lol.  The "isk grind" is a term I dont understand in EVE.  Find a career in game and stick to it, whether its manufacturing, salvaging, mining, whatever.  A lot of things in EVE require you to log in maybe once a day to make sure your making money, other than that you can take care of your IRL job and such, no fear of the aggro wife or anything.  (although my wife plays with me)  I would much rather fly a wolf in a militia battle than a battleship, its much more exciting than just sitting stationary firing at targets and sending out drones.