The amount of subs required for a success is simple. Enough to cover operational costs, preferably more so as to be able to fun expansions.

500,000 is excessive to qualify as a success. That is 25 million in initial sales and a monthly income of 7.5 million. That is WAY more than enough to cover initial developement and operational costs as well as expansions. The thing with MMOs is that they really do not require massive numbers to stay afloat, so long as they properly anticipate how many people will play their game, hey can, and usually do, fair just fine.

WoW was able to achieve great numbers because of already having a large fanbase in the Warcraft series, and for using graphic tricks to simulate decent graphics with little actual GPU cost, resulting in a decently looking game (tastes may vary), with low system requirements, which directly results in a larger player base.

From what I have noticed based on game design decisions, system requirements, and one "shard", STO is not meant to appeal to a mass market as WoW does.

As well, devs mentioned a desired sub target before. I cannot recall if it was 10k or 100k. 10k seems a little short to me so I think it was 100k. Annnddd I am too lazy to go find it lol. Was in an interview, text based not video.

Originally posted by DanaDark

The amount of subs required for a success is simple. Enough to cover operational costs, preferably more so as to be able to fun expansions.

500,000 is excessive to qualify as a success. That is 25 million in initial sales and a monthly income of 7.5 million. That is WAY more than enough to cover initial developement and operational costs as well as expansions. The thing with MMOs is that they really do not require massive numbers to stay afloat, so long as they properly anticipate how many people will play their game, hey can, and usually do, fair just fine.

WoW was able to achieve great numbers because of already having a large fanbase in the Warcraft series, and for using graphic tricks to simulate decent graphics with little actual GPU cost, resulting in a decently looking game (tastes may vary), with low system requirements, which directly results in a larger player base.

From what I have noticed based on game design decisions, system requirements, and one "shard", STO is not meant to appeal to a mass market as WoW does.

As well, devs mentioned a desired sub target before. I cannot recall if it was 10k or 100k. 10k seems a little short to me so I think it was 100k. Annnddd I am too lazy to go find it lol. Was in an interview, text based not video.

Well, if you are right, and low sub numbers would be sufficient for Cryptic, why on Earth have they decided NOT to make the game for Trek fans, as they have admitted?

Other than the obvious - they are looking for a quick, cheap score.

IMHO, one thing you guys do need to taking into consideration is the game that launches will not be representitive of the game it will be about 6 to 12 months out.

Don't pre-order or play an MMO at launch, you are setting yourself up for massive disappointment. It takes these games about a year to sort themselves out.

Originally posted by huskiblu

I have been reading the mostly negative posts about the upcoming Star Trek Online game.  While I don't know the exact in's and out's of this game, just the general details, I am going to state why I and other Trekkies should be excited, and why the faults may not be fault.

1.  Everyone is complaining that there won't be exploration like Voyager or TNG.  Well, I don't hear any complaints it's not going to be like DS9, right?  DS9 was mostly about war and the fighting.  It was epic.  If Cryptic omitted that, all of you would be whining "Where are the epic battles like DS9?"  Cryptic has to sell this game to non-trekkies.  To do that, it requires to show the fighting.  It looks epic.  Yeah, could be a bit on the easy side, but, for a Trekkie, I can't wait to make my own ship, add what I want to it, and finally feel like a "captain."

2.  Same engine as Champions Online right?  And...?  Who cares!  Half Life and Team Fortress share the same engine.  I don't like Half Life, but love TF.  Just because the engine is tied to a poor MMO doesn't mean this will be poor.  Leads to my next point...

3.  So what, Champions Online was shallow.  I played it, enjoyed it, and quit.  Disappointed, yes, but it doesn't mean Star Trek will be like this.  If you refuse to play games made by the same company that were bad, then no one would be touching EA games.  They surely have more bad than good.  So that reasoning makes little sense.

4.  Two years to develop = suckage.  No, not true.  How long was Daikatana in development and sucked?  How long as Duke Nukem been in development?  Time means nothing, it's what work is put into the game.  It will also take time to grow beyond that.  WoW sucked day one, and for awhile after that.  But now, it's a near perfect MMO.

Basically, if you don't want to play the game or think it will fail, shut up.  You are ruining it for those who are eager for it.  Yes, I pre-ordered, and I will buy a lifetime subscription if it's offered.  It's Star Trek!  All of us nerds are eager to be captains and see other captains and roleplay in those roles without being laughed at.  I'm excited, I'm stoked, I will be taking time off work just to take the game in when it's released.  So those with a negative attitude on the game, don't join!  Starfleet doesn't want you!

People like you are the reason we've been treated to so many bad Star Trek games and games in general.

1) No one is complaining that there is combat.  The complaint is that people are worried that's ALL there is.  Even DS9 in the middle of the Dominion War had episdoes that didn't involve the war or combat.  Even the combat episodes weren't 100% pew-pew.

2)  Didn't play either HL or TF, so I can't compare them.  Aren't they essentially the same?  Part of the reason some people don't like CO is because of the engine.  Those people aren't going to magically like STO.

3) Odds are STO will be even more shallow, given its' short dev cycle.  We are 2.5 months from release and no virtually nothing about one of the factions or most mechanics of the game.  They admitted the other day they're still working on MAKING the economy for the game..not tweaking, but still building. FYI many people DON'T give companies like SOE and EA their money because of their histories, especially SOE.

4) Actually, two years dev time on a AAA MMO is almost guaranteed suckage.  You would have had a better argument pointing games, specifically MMOs, with short dev times that are good...if you can find any.  You are in the minority that think WoW sucked day one.

I, for one, will NOT shut up when I see a train wreck about to happen with one of my favorite IPs.  You and your compatriots in the Ostrich Brigade are doing more harm then the people sounding the alarm.  How many more bad Trek games can the IP survive?

Originally posted by Torak

IMHO, one thing you guys do need to taking into consideration is the game that launches will not be representitive of the game it will be about 6 to 12 months out.

Don't pre-order or play an MMO at launch, you are setting yourself up for massive disappointment. It takes these games about a year to sort themselves out.

 

Since WHEN is it okay for the developers of ANY MMO to put out an incomplete game?  This is a mindset we need to move away from, people.

That's what we're arguing against here.  I'm not paying for an ongoing beta, and as far as I can tell, this game is far from finished yet.  The developers are putting it out now to rake in some further development cash (not one dime of which will go to quality content, it'll go to appeasing the existing playerbase who are determined to like it just because it's Star Trek, the ones who will be whining, very quickly, about how crappy and 'unbalanced' the combat system is).

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by ktanner3

No they wouldn't because not every trek fan plays games. Warcraft was not successful because of the Warcraft fanbase(which were all gamers mind you). It was a success because it was able to appeal to its base as well as others who had never heard of the franchise before. If all it had done was appeal to fans of the franchise, it wouldn't be anywhere near the success it is now which is 5 years and counting of being the top dog in the MMORPG world. What was the biggest selling Star Trek game? Starfleet Command? Armada? Elite Force? I don't think any of them ever sold over a million copies and there were quite a few of them that covered every type of playstyle imaginable.

Ignoring the rest of your points for now - what kind of sub numbers would you consider a big success? I ask because I think 500,000 would qualify. Tell me a serious Trek MMORPG wouldn't get that.

500,000 would be fine. But I don't think an of those games would have lasted as MMORPGs seeing as how most of them sucked.

In order to answer your last you need to define what YOU think is a serious Trek MMORPG because IMO the one coming out is one.

I will play this game and I'm not a Trekkie. After the new movie came out, I want to spend some time making new friends and exploring space. I hope the away missions are great and can't wait to play.

Originally posted by huskiblu

I have been reading the mostly negative posts about the upcoming Star Trek Online game.  While I don't know the exact in's and out's of this game, just the general details, I am going to state why I and other Trekkies should be excited, and why the faults may not be fault.

1.  Everyone is complaining that there won't be exploration like Voyager or TNG.  Well, I don't hear any complaints it's not going to be like DS9, right?  DS9 was mostly about war and the fighting.  It was epic.  If Cryptic omitted that, all of you would be whining "Where are the epic battles like DS9?"  Cryptic has to sell this game to non-trekkies.  To do that, it requires to show the fighting.  It looks epic.  Yeah, could be a bit on the easy side, but, for a Trekkie, I can't wait to make my own ship, add what I want to it, and finally feel like a "captain."

2.  Same engine as Champions Online right?  And...?  Who cares!  Half Life and Team Fortress share the same engine.  I don't like Half Life, but love TF.  Just because the engine is tied to a poor MMO doesn't mean this will be poor.  Leads to my next point...

3.  So what, Champions Online was shallow.  I played it, enjoyed it, and quit.  Disappointed, yes, but it doesn't mean Star Trek will be like this.  If you refuse to play games made by the same company that were bad, then no one would be touching EA games.  They surely have more bad than good.  So that reasoning makes little sense.

4.  Two years to develop = suckage.  No, not true.  How long was Daikatana in development and sucked?  How long as Duke Nukem been in development?  Time means nothing, it's what work is put into the game.  It will also take time to grow beyond that.  WoW sucked day one, and for awhile after that.  But now, it's a near perfect MMO.

Basically, if you don't want to play the game or think it will fail, shut up.  You are ruining it for those who are eager for it.  Yes, I pre-ordered, and I will buy a lifetime subscription if it's offered.  It's Star Trek!  All of us nerds are eager to be captains and see other captains and roleplay in those roles without being laughed at.  I'm excited, I'm stoked, I will be taking time off work just to take the game in when it's released.  So those with a negative attitude on the game, don't join!  Starfleet doesn't want you!

http://g4tv.com/videos/42667/Star-Trek-Online-MMO-All-Access-Preview/

Here is a great link/interview with Morgan from G4 Note at 2:05 there Genesis system, so really if people think there will be lack of exploration you mite want to think again. And I agree with ya Husk, that some peeps mite be getting  to critical too. but to each there own. I know come Feb. 2 Ill be enjoying STO " ENGAGE Baby {tries an Austin Powers imitation)!!"

Originally posted by MegaMouth

I will play this game and I'm not a Trekkie. After the new movie came out, I want to spend some time making new friends and exploring space. I hope the away missions are great and can't wait to play.

And if it was up to the haters of this game, the game would be put in moff balls until everyone could play the guy in the gally and there was player crews. Thank goodness none of them are game developers.

Originally posted by zaylin

http://g4tv.com/videos/42667/Star-Trek-Online-MMO-All-Access-Preview/

Here is a great link/interview with Morgan from G4 Note at 2:05 there Genesis system, so really if people think there will be lack of exploration you mite want to think again. And I agree with ya Husk, that some peeps mite be getting  to critical too. but to each there own. I know come Feb. 2 Ill be enjoying STO " ENGAGE Baby {tries an Austin Powers imitation)!!"

 

Randomly-generated content tends to suck.

i think the reason why is because it isnt Star Trek, it really is a no brainer, and if your a real Star Trek fan then you'll know exactly whats missing from the proposed game, and why it isnt really Star Trek. But, have to say the optimism is surely encouraging, its just a shame that cryptic are going to let everyone down, in all seriousness, do you really think the game with the features as currently advertised will sell, against all the current and soon to be released MMO's.. honestly? Cryptic are already off to a bad start with their other title, and there is a lot of conjecture now about how this is going to affect development of STO. Its not looking good imo...

Originally posted by ktanner3

 

And if it was up to the haters of this game, the game would be put in moff balls until everyone could play the guy in the gally and there was player crews. Thank goodness none of them are game developers.

First off - it's "moth balls".

Secondly - I don't think Riker, Spock, Chakotay, or T'Pol spent much time in the galley. Nor did McCoy, Scotty, Sulu, Data, or LaForge. Ever heard of them? Of course not, because Trek is all about the captains.

Thirdly - Yes, I want this game put on hold until it does justice to the IP, or is cancelled.

Originally posted by Phry

i think the reason why is because it isnt Star Trek, it really is a no brainer, and if your a real Star Trek fan then you'll know exactly whats missing from the proposed game, and why it isnt really Star Trek.

Space, the final frontier... check

Voyages of the starship... check

Seek out new life and new civilizations... no

Boldly go where no one has gone before... no

STO gets half the picture.  It fails to capture the true essence of Star Trek.  It's not about war.  At least, not entirely.  If I'm gonna play Star Trek, I want it to actually be Star Trek, not the tiny part that seems more marketable.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by ktanner3

 

And if it was up to the haters of this game, the game would be put in moff balls until everyone could play the guy in the gally and there was player crews. Thank goodness none of them are game developers.

First off - it's "moth balls".

Secondly - I don't think Riker, Spock, Chakotay, or T'Pol spent much time in the galley. Nor did McCoy, Scotty, Sulu, Data, or LaForge. Ever heard of them? Of course not, because Trek is all about the captains.

 

Thirdly - Yes, I want this game put on hold until it does justice to the IP, or is cancelled.

Yup because Star Trek isnt all about the Captains, nor is it all about the starships, but it does have those things in it. Just as football isnt just about the Striker, you know, theres also a couple of other guys on the pitch, pretty sure one of thems the goalie.
 

Originally posted by Phry

Yup because Star Trek isnt all about the Captains, nor is it all about the starships, but it does have those things in it. Just as football isnt just about the Striker, you know, theres also a couple of other guys on the pitch, pretty sure one of thems the goalie.
 

If Cryptic was covering the game - the keeper would be a bot, and you would have a strength bar representing your midfielders.

Originally posted by Phry

i think the reason why is because it isnt Star Trek, it really is a no brainer, and if your a real Star Trek fan then you'll know exactly whats missing from the proposed game, and why it isnt really Star Trek. But, have to say the optimism is surely encouraging, its just a shame that cryptic are going to let everyone down, in all seriousness, do you really think the game with the features as currently advertised will sell, against all the current and soon to be released MMO's.. honestly? Cryptic are already off to a bad start with their other title, and there is a lot of conjecture now about how this is going to affect development of STO. Its not looking good imo...

Here we go again. /rolleyes.

Originally posted by tman5

There are three schools in the Trekverse. There are the Roddenberry Trekkies, the Berman Trekkies and the Abrams Trekkies (I reject the term "Trekker" as pretentious and pointless).  Each subsequent interation stripped more of the classic thoughtful Roddenberry elements from Trek until today, under Abrams' reign, Trek is little more than any generic sci fi with lasers space show.

A Roddenberry Star Trek game would be a great challenge to develop, perhaps impossible.   Yet, as a solid Roddenberry Trekkie, this is what I expect when you claim a Star Trek MMO:  Balance of Terror.  Miri.  Operation Annihilate.  Tapestry.  The Measure of a Man.

Berman and Abrams?  Pew pew.  Explosions.  Repeat.  Next.   This game sounds like it will cater to the Berman or Abrams Trekkie just fine.  I truly hope you enjoy it.

I accept your classification of trekkies. I would argue, however, that these form a spectrum rather than being categories with set boundaries. I would also stress that Berman trekkies have much more respect for what Gene Roddenberry was trying to do with the Star Trek universe than say the hardcore Abrams trekkies. And I will say that the final season of TNG and the last 3 seasons of DS9--in my mind--were some of the best sci-fi television ever made. I would have put the new BSG in here too, if it weren't for the final episode of the series (excuse me while I vomit).

But like you I'm very concerned with the future of the IP in all its genres--film, television, books and games.

Edit*

I almost forgot to add, even though this has nothing to do with the post I've just quoted, the future of the MMO industry is two pronged. It is these cheap f2p microtransaction games, but its also games like EVE.

CCP actually DID something different. They created an expansive sci-fi universe and involved thousands of players directly in its articulation via game mechanics that allow player run organizations to build their own empires, fight their own wars, spy on their own enemies and negotiate their own treaties.

-R

Originally posted by Phry

Yup because Star Trek isnt all about the Captains, nor is it all about the starships, but it does have those things in it. Just as football isnt just about the Striker, you know, theres also a couple of other guys on the pitch, pretty sure one of thems the goalie.
 

I think you have your sports confused. That's soccer you're talking about.

Originally posted by Revthought

Originally posted by Phry

Yup because Star Trek isnt all about the Captains, nor is it all about the starships, but it does have those things in it. Just as football isnt just about the Striker, you know, theres also a couple of other guys on the pitch, pretty sure one of thems the goalie.
 

 

I think you have your sports confused. That's soccer you're talking about.

It's called football in most of the world.

Originally posted by Phry

i think the reason why is because it isnt Star Trek, it really is a no brainer, and if your a real Star Trek fan then you'll know exactly whats missing from the proposed game, and why it isnt really Star Trek. But, have to say the optimism is surely encouraging, its just a shame that cryptic are going to let everyone down, in all seriousness, do you really think the game with the features as currently advertised will sell, against all the current and soon to be released MMO's.. honestly? Cryptic are already off to a bad start with their other title, and there is a lot of conjecture now about how this is going to affect development of STO. Its not looking good imo...

Star Trek has and always will be my favorite series in human history. I used to have Mr. Spock ears, Actual play scripts of every  original episode. official uniforms from the origional TV show and If I thought for one second that Cryptic would do this game justice and actually make a mmo that was pure Star Trek I would probably never play another game till the day I died. Unfortunatly in todays MMO market casual hand holding crap is pretty much what we can expect. So no this ain't gonna be Star Trek. And I ain't gonna hold my breath. Fallen Earth is my last great hope before I quit MMO.s for good. Every since World of Warcraft came along with thier millions of subs from adolescent little kids and non MMO players and juvenile MR. T advertising. True MMO's with mature communities and that "adult" feel has ceased to exist. The entire industry has gone to shit in my opinion. But that's just me I guess. Flame on!