A better question is: "what reason do we have to believe the rebels are good?"

I'm not going to argue that the Empire was "good"...it wasn't; it was a totalitarian and often brutal regime...but it formed because of the weaknesses and faults of the "Old Repbublic". But what of the rebels?

What IS the rebel plan for a post-victory form of government? Nothing. A return to near total anarachy and constant warfare as the individual factions and power blocs fight over the remains of the empire. What legal or even moral justification does either Leia or Mon Mothma have as a new leader?

Likewise, consider the Jedi. The author of that article is completely right...what makes Jedi "good"? Because they say so? What gave the Jedi council the right to act as judge, jury and executioner...the STASI of the Old Republic.

The real answer is of course that Lucas never seriously thought about most of these issues or resolved them...he's flopped around over the years for various reasons...but he really left most of the moral questions unanswered because he never considered anything outside the main space opera plotline.

Originally posted by blackthornn

uh oh, time for the christian Luke = Jesus rants thereby proving the Rebels are always in the right, time to don the bible repellent.  Good work of fiction, I'd say first fantasy novel ever published :P

 I agree that the Bible is a work of fiction, decent at best. But it certainly wasn't the first "fantasy" any culture has had. I would go as far back as the ancient Egyptians for the first fantasy "novel". And their stories were a lot cooler. Sure, not as moral, but screw morality. It invites hypocrisy, thus inviting a vicious circle of heathenism.

And for the record, yes, I'd rather live with clearly defined laws and punishments, where everyone has and knows his/her role as opposed to a backstabbing political machine where betrayal, treachery and such are hidden behind fluffy clouds of self effacing committee bullshit.  I'd rather live in a Sith controlled sector thanks.

 lol HEAR HERE!!!

"OMGZ NO, the Imperials blew up Aalderan...they're so evil, quick lets get revenge and blow up that space station that's dumped bazillions of credits into the labor market and is still mostly staffed by mechanics, welders, engineers and their families.....Viva La Rebellione"

Originally posted by Elikal

Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by Elikal

Good is a state of mind, one as clearly to see as the day when you are at it. There is no grey.

 

Luke: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?
Yoda: You will know... when you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.

 

Just as evil is rooted in fear and hate, no matter how smart it may mask itself. Saying there is no clear good and evil IS evil, it is the first door opened, the first temptation to make one less observant and less careful. Once you start justify yourself as "hey, maybe there isn't good and evil at all", you started the first step. I am not speaking about social norms or historically grown values. Such things are humbug, not trivialities like is drinking evil or what. I am talking about mental mainframes. There are two and only two ways of founding your actions, one is good the other is bad. One is caring about the people around you the other is selfish not caring at all. I think that is quite simple. But what society and fashion call virtue has zero to do with that.

I have to disagree with this.  While good intent is nice, that doesn't mean you'll have good actions.  If you kill an innocent by accident, but had good intent, that doesn't change the vileness of the act.  Similarly, if you have evil intents, but your actions make the world a better place (perhaps you stop someone from doing something terrible, because it was in your own interest), then that doesn't make your actions evil.  Intent is nice for judging, in a way, what sort of person you are and how you might act in the future, but at the end of the day it is your behavior and the results of that behavior that really matter.  (Beyond that, I think there is certainly grey).
 

 

You mistake evil with unlawful. If I kill a man by accident it is against the law, but it is not evil.

The intent is EVERYTHING. There is a wonderful part in the New Testament, where Jesus explains, in the old days you broke the promise of marriage when you dated with another person (simply said), but he says, not when you break your marriage you commit a sin, but already when you think of another. It is the intent with makes good and evil. The action is what makes lawful and unlawful. Those are two different things. It is quite futile to mix those two up.

 

Back to the topic: again, would ANYONE here really prefer to live under a SIth Empire rather than the Republic? In this term it is really quite simple.

Uhg...

Q: So what famous philosophers and/or historians around Jesus' time managed to write anything about him?
A: No one. Christian and Catholic combatants for the cause say that Josephus did, but it has been PROVEN time and time again to be false. A farse. Propaganda.

It is not in the best interest of a Christian to quote the New Testament, or any other part of the Bible, as history is far too superior now, and an actual reference guide, where the Bible was formed through evil intentions. And intent is EVERYTHING. The first thing I've agreed with you on so far. Don't make it a habit though, because I want this conversation to continue.

I would prefer to live in a Sith Empire. The Empire in the movies is a great overexaggeration, in my humble opinion. But even if that were the case, I would still prefer a rule of Empire over a republic-ruled civilization. Why? Ask yourself why you enjoy living in a country where they remove freedoms constantly, only after promising freedom unconditionally. With an Empire, you already know what to expect. Everything's laid out right in front of you. Look at ant colonies and the like. They are vastly productive, as are the Chinese. Principles dwell further within an Empire than a Republic, as history can confirm.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm late for Bible study.

Also, the Bible says:

"Judge not, lest ye (for fear that you will be) judged." So stop judging others. You know NOT what is good and evil. It is merely your PERCEPTION, as I said earlier on.

The Bible is Dr. Suess's best work.

Tarka walks into the room, realises that the occupants AREN'T talking about SWTOR but are in fact talking about the Bible, turns 180 degrees and walks back out again........

 Does a Jedi mindtrick on another person entering......  

"This isn't the conversation topic you was looking for."

"Nothing to see here.....move along....move along"

Originally posted by Tarka

Tarka walks into the room, realises that the occupants AREN'T talking about SWTOR but are in fact talking about the Bible, turns 180 degrees and walks back out again........

 Does a Jedi mindtrick on another person entering......  

"This isn't the conversation topic you was looking for."

"Nothing to see here.....move along....move along"

lol Tarka did the right thing.

I too have problems with the Sith//Jedi dichotomy where the Sith are "evil."

For instance why all the emphasis on "hatred" and anger for the Sith in Star Wars? Love is also an emotion an emotion that the Sith should be guided by.

Having said that, I reject that article out of hand. Pinochet wasn't bad? Tell that to the tens of thousands of people who died in Chile under Pinochet. Tell that to their families. That bit was frankly, disgusting.

And if we're completely honest with ourselves, we could say what the author says about any dictatorship. For those who obey the laws and keep to themselves it might not be "that bad." However, have a differing opinion about politics, nation or the economic system, well then your ass ends up disappeared.

Lol, the Empire is good? Yeees. *calls for the doctors*

This is a joke of the OP, guys. =P

Originally posted by blackthornn

uh oh, time for the christian Luke = Jesus rants thereby proving the Rebels are always in the right, time to don the bible repellent.  Good work of fiction, I'd say first fantasy novel ever published :P

 

And for the record, yes, I'd rather live with clearly defined laws and punishments, where everyone has and knows his/her role as opposed to a backstabbing political machine where betrayal, treachery and such are hidden behind fluffy clouds of self effacing committee bullshit.  I'd rather live in a Sith controlled sector thanks.

 

"OMGZ NO, the Imperials blew up Aalderan...they're so evil, quick lets get revenge and blow up that space station that's dumped bazillions of credits into the labor market and is still mostly staffed by mechanics, welders, engineers and their families.....Viva La Rebellione"

What else do you expect from Heathens than the modern, fashionable moral relativism which makes our cities, schools and life so miserable, just to excuse their every whim and wantoness.

When you think a sort of Nazi Empire is without backstabbing you now NOTHING. Maybe you study the one Empire which came closest in RL to the Sith Empire, the Nazi Germany. Never was there more backstabbing, treachery and vile than there. Your idea an Empire of Order would be clear law and order, then you are gravely mistaken. People with rotten moral of a street thug are placed into position of power and execute them at wantoness for the sheer satisfaction of their sadism. There wasnt a single "Empire" in real history where life wasn't miserable and no matter what you did you always lived under grave danger of backstabbing. Even AS Sith in the fictional Sith Empire you'd be in danger every single second to be betrayed by another Sith. IS THAT a way you want to live? Under constant thread to be killed by your very ally just because he wants something you have? Thats disgusting.

It is the same moral nihilism which breeds criminals in our so called free west. When our streets are rampant with Anarchy and crime, when you dad or mom, your brother or sister, you son or daughter is killed by some warlord or crime lord, or some Nazi Dictator decides green eyed people are underlings who deserve death or some other arbitrary reason I think you will learn better. No. There is no alternative to ethic, to compassion. And that is not rooted in Christendom alone, but it is likely the most common ground to explain to most. It will be THIS moral nihilism which will be our doom.

Study Nazi Germany; there was NOTHING safe and orderly in it.

Behind your safe computers you can beat on your chest calling a Nazi Sith Empire good, but for me it's just Nerds who know nothing about the suffering under such rules, and the only excuse I can summon is the apparent lack of education which is written all over this. There is nothing cool or great in evil Empires.

Look closely. THAT is the underside of every "Empire": DONT LOOK AWAY!!!

Originally posted by Revthought

For instance why all the emphasis on "hatred" and anger for the Sith in Star Wars? Love is also an emotion an emotion that the Sith should be guided by.

Love, especially in the EU, is very explicitly part of the Light Side.  Sith aren't guided by it at all.  Hatred, fear, greed, etc are emotions connected with the Dark Side.  I think you missed part of the moral of the fall of Anakin Skywalker.  He fell not because he loved, but because the Jedi Council was so unbending and ridiculously opposed to all emotional connections.  That left him with nowhere to turn with his problems and Palpatine took advantage of that.  This stagnant element that the old Jedi Order developed was gotten rid of when Luke made the New Jedi Order.
 

Originally posted by ericbelser

A better question is: "what reason do we have to believe the rebels are good?"

I'm not going to argue that the Empire was "good"...it wasn't; it was a totalitarian and often brutal regime...but it formed because of the weaknesses and faults of the "Old Repbublic". But what of the rebels?

What IS the rebel plan for a post-victory form of government? Nothing. A return to near total anarachy and constant warfare as the individual factions and power blocs fight over the remains of the empire. What legal or even moral justification does either Leia or Mon Mothma have as a new leader?

Likewise, consider the Jedi. The author of that article is completely right...what makes Jedi "good"? Because they say so? What gave the Jedi council the right to act as judge, jury and executioner...the STASI of the Old Republic.

The real answer is of course that Lucas never seriously thought about most of these issues or resolved them...he's flopped around over the years for various reasons...but he really left most of the moral questions unanswered because he never considered anything outside the main space opera plotline.

Are you even familiar with how Star Wars works?  Yeah, the Old Republic had a lot of problems at the end, though honestly part of this was because Palpatine and possibly other Sith had worked long and hard to make problems.
 

The Rebels DID have a post-victory plan and did form a government.  Now, I'll contend that the idiocy of EU writing eventually made it so that this government had problem after problem (to a ridiculous extent), but that doesn't mean they didn't have a plan and there was NOT total anarchy after the Rebellion won.  Even though there was some chaos, it was far better than letting a totalitarian and brutal regime to continue to rule.  By the way, Mon Mothma and Leia were elected officials, so unless you want to start arguing that democracy isn't a valid form of government, then it is pretty clear where their "right" to rule came from; the people.

As for the Jedi, in the Old Republic over time the Jedi went through multiple changes.  At first they were allies of the Old Republic, but were independent agents.  Generally they were mindful of the law, but did have some vigilante elements, I suppose.  That said, being guided by the force is a pretty nice thing in this area, so vigilantism was constrained to where actual evil had to be toppled.  Of course, they also did a lot of mediation and helped through peaceful means a lot.  I guess they were a bit like a Superman Squad (e.g. they stop evil, but generally avoid killing), but they were of course ultimately answerable to both the Jedi Council and the New Republic, so if any Jedi did get out of hand he'd be stopped.  Later, for the last 1000 years of the Old Republic (well after TOR is set), they become an official part of the government.  I'd note that we don't see them going around being "judge, jury, and executioner" there either.  Jinn and Kenobi, for instance, only use violence in self defense or the defense of others.  It's no more sinister than any police organization.

Originally posted by RoosterNash

Originally posted by Elikal

Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by Elikal

Good is a state of mind, one as clearly to see as the day when you are at it. There is no grey.

 

Luke: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?
Yoda: You will know... when you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.

 

Just as evil is rooted in fear and hate, no matter how smart it may mask itself. Saying there is no clear good and evil IS evil, it is the first door opened, the first temptation to make one less observant and less careful. Once you start justify yourself as "hey, maybe there isn't good and evil at all", you started the first step. I am not speaking about social norms or historically grown values. Such things are humbug, not trivialities like is drinking evil or what. I am talking about mental mainframes. There are two and only two ways of founding your actions, one is good the other is bad. One is caring about the people around you the other is selfish not caring at all. I think that is quite simple. But what society and fashion call virtue has zero to do with that.

I have to disagree with this.  While good intent is nice, that doesn't mean you'll have good actions.  If you kill an innocent by accident, but had good intent, that doesn't change the vileness of the act.  Similarly, if you have evil intents, but your actions make the world a better place (perhaps you stop someone from doing something terrible, because it was in your own interest), then that doesn't make your actions evil.  Intent is nice for judging, in a way, what sort of person you are and how you might act in the future, but at the end of the day it is your behavior and the results of that behavior that really matter.  (Beyond that, I think there is certainly grey).
 

 

You mistake evil with unlawful. If I kill a man by accident it is against the law, but it is not evil.

The intent is EVERYTHING. There is a wonderful part in the New Testament, where Jesus explains, in the old days you broke the promise of marriage when you dated with another person (simply said), but he says, not when you break your marriage you commit a sin, but already when you think of another. It is the intent with makes good and evil. The action is what makes lawful and unlawful. Those are two different things. It is quite futile to mix those two up.

 

Back to the topic: again, would ANYONE here really prefer to live under a SIth Empire rather than the Republic? In this term it is really quite simple.

Uhg...

Q: So what famous philosophers and/or historians around Jesus' time managed to write anything about him?
A: No one. Christian and Catholic combatants for the cause say that Josephus did, but it has been PROVEN time and time again to be false. A farse. Propaganda.

It is not in the best interest of a Christian to quote the New Testament, or any other part of the Bible, as history is far too superior now, and an actual reference guide, where the Bible was formed through evil intentions. And intent is EVERYTHING. The first thing I've agreed with you on so far. Don't make it a habit though, because I want this conversation to continue.

I would prefer to live in a Sith Empire. The Empire in the movies is a great overexaggeration, in my humble opinion. But even if that were the case, I would still prefer a rule of Empire over a republic-ruled civilization. Why? Ask yourself why you enjoy living in a country where they remove freedoms constantly, only after promising freedom unconditionally. With an Empire, you already know what to expect. Everything's laid out right in front of you. Look at ant colonies and the like. They are vastly productive, as are the Chinese. Principles dwell further within an Empire than a Republic, as history can confirm.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm late for Bible study.

Those who'd trade a little freedom for a bit of security deserve neither.
 

You do know that going with the Sith might easily mean you'd end up a slave or dead, right?  The Republic is a heck of a lot safer.  In addition, for all your talk of the Republic "taking away" freedoms, you have a lot more freedoms and rights there than under the Empire.  I'm sure Vader or a Sith (or Stormtroopers) would be slightly amused by your protests about how "exaggerated" they are behaving before they kill you or take away your stuff.

Beyond that, the whole "promising freedom unconditionally" is kinda silly.  What government that can actually exist promises that?  At a starting point, there's the old saying that your freedom stops at the end of my nose.  This general principle is the reason for a LOT of the "lack of freedom" in modern societies, because the rights of others must be taken into account.  Still, that's a heck of a lot more freedom than you'd get in Nazi Germany or a Sith Empire.

Originally posted by Tarka

Tarka walks into the room, realises that the occupants AREN'T talking about SWTOR but are in fact talking about the Bible, turns 180 degrees and walks back out again........

 Does a Jedi mindtrick on another person entering......  

"This isn't the conversation topic you was looking for."

"Nothing to see here.....move along....move along"

One guy brought up the Bible...I think we can safely avoid most talk about it.  Talking about ethics doesn't mean you have to talk about any religion.
 

While I can't say for certain whether the author of that article was being sarcastic (which is always hard to do in a written medium) or just an idiot, at least he started a debate.   As for me... I'm not sure where to begin here.

Are there elements of the Empire that are good?  Well, yes.  A government provides an element of order allowing for technical progress and economic activities to function in relative peace.  Compared to anarchy where the comforts of civilization are either nonexistant or horded by those with the biggest weapon and many of the services we take for granted in the West are inoperable due to instability, order of any kind looks pretty good.  Even Stalin's Russia and Hitler's Germany would be better then a society engulfed in civil war and infighting.  But on the same token, it was nothing for the Empire to destroy an entire planet just to test out their new toy.  And that's really all it was, razing an entire city (which is pretty much all it was in the general scale of Starwars) just because you doubt what a captured spy is telling you is stupid.  If it was more tactically advantageous for the Empire to blow the planet up instead of take it over or otherwise ensure access to the factories and farms it held it would be one thing, but the evidence we have suggests a bit of "because I can" kind of thinking going on among the higher-ups among the Empire.

I love his apparent double standards in using the Expanded Universe however.  In the movies, yes the Rebel Alliance don't go into great details regarding their post-war plan but then we don't get a great deal of insight into how the Empire works either.  We only really know that they really don't like bounty hunters and that they're all human (seriously, all the alien villains in the original trilogy were working for the Hutts or guns for hire.)  So how do we know that the Empire is a meritocracy without consulting sources outside of the movies?  For that matter, how did he know Han attended an Imperial military academy?  All we really got in the movie was that he was a smuggler who owed money to the wrong people.  Having another character call him "captain" isn't really much since if you own and run a ship large enough to require a crew bigger then yourself, you're a captain by default.  Granted, it's been awhile since I saw the movies so my memory might be wrong...

Originally posted by Elikal

 What else do you expect from Heathens than the modern, fashionable moral relativism which makes our cities, schools and life so miserable, just to excuse their every whim and wantoness.

When you think a sort of Nazi Empire is without backstabbing you now NOTHING. Maybe you study the one Empire which came closest in RL to the Sith Empire, the Nazi Germany. Never was there more backstabbing, treachery and vile than there. Your idea an Empire of Order would be clear law and order, then you are gravely mistaken. People with rotten moral of a street thug are placed into position of power and execute them at wantoness for the sheer satisfaction of their sadism. There wasnt a single "Empire" in real history where life wasn't miserable and no matter what you did you always lived under grave danger of backstabbing. Even AS Sith in the fictional Sith Empire you'd be in danger every single second to be betrayed by another Sith. IS THAT a way you want to live? Under constant thread to be killed by your very ally just because he wants something you have? Thats disgusting.

It is the same moral nihilism which breeds criminals in our so called free west. When our streets are rampant with Anarchy and crime, when you dad or mom, your brother or sister, you son or daughter is killed by some warlord or crime lord, or some Nazi Dictator decides green eyed people are underlings who deserve death or some other arbitrary reason I think you will learn better. No. There is no alternative to ethic, to compassion. And that is not rooted in Christendom alone, but it is likely the most common ground to explain to most. It will be THIS moral nihilism which will be our doom.

Study Nazi Germany; there was NOTHING safe and orderly in it.

 

Behind your safe computers you can beat on your chest calling a Nazi Sith Empire good, but for me it's just Nerds who know nothing about the suffering under such rules, and the only excuse I can summon is the apparent lack of education which is written all over this. There is nothing cool or great in evil Empires.

Look closely. THAT is the underside of every "Empire": DONT LOOK AWAY!!!

What gave you the idea that the Sith Empire is closely related to the Nazi regime? The Nazi regime was a FAR more heinous campaign than the Sith Empire employed. What another ridiculous statement from a Christian zealot. Stop with your bigotry. You've failed to emote any sense of relationship to proper comparative thought, so leave your hypocritical opinions for your own personal blog. You have 0 reasoning skills, providing aggressive, non-sensical notions based on false advertisements.

Originally posted by Drachasor

Those who'd trade a little freedom for a bit of security deserve neither.
 

You do know that going with the Sith might easily mean you'd end up a slave or dead, right?  The Republic is a heck of a lot safer.  In addition, for all your talk of the Republic "taking away" freedoms, you have a lot more freedoms and rights there than under the Empire.  I'm sure Vader or a Sith (or Stormtroopers) would be slightly amused by your protests about how "exaggerated" they are behaving before they kill you or take away your stuff.

Beyond that, the whole "promising freedom unconditionally" is kinda silly.  What government that can actually exist promises that?  At a starting point, there's the old saying that your freedom stops at the end of my nose.  This general principle is the reason for a LOT of the "lack of freedom" in modern societies, because the rights of others must be taken into account.  Still, that's a heck of a lot more freedom than you'd get in Nazi Germany or a Sith Empire.

 

Idiotic, conformist ideals. And, again, another honorable mention of Nazi Germany as a comparrison to the Sith empire. They aren't as comparable as people detail. Sure, that was the idea behind Lucas' vision. But Lucas failed to inact a sovereign look into the eyes of the Sith. Everything was one-sided and vague. So, feel free to assume that everyone under an empire are unjustly mistreated. But continue to remember that Americans and the like are losing freedoms on a daily basis, not to mention that we know very little of what goes on with our government and their plans for our future. It's a cloaking system. If you choose to live in blind faith, by all means, do so. But I prefer to know my future, whether it be life or certain death. Then again, I'm not an idiot, so that's granted.

Originally posted by Maj_Science

While I can't say for certain whether the author of that article was being sarcastic (which is always hard to do in a written medium) or just an idiot, at least he started a debate.   As for me... I'm not sure where to begin here.

Are there elements of the Empire that are good?  Well, yes.  A government provides an element of order allowing for technical progress and economic activities to function in relative peace.  Compared to anarchy where the comforts of civilization are either nonexistant or horded by those with the biggest weapon and many of the services we take for granted in the West are inoperable due to instability, order of any kind looks pretty good.  Even Stalin's Russia and Hitler's Germany would be better then a society engulfed in civil war and infighting.  But on the same token, it was nothing for the Empire to destroy an entire planet just to test out their new toy.  And that's really all it was, razing an entire city (which is pretty much all it was in the general scale of Starwars) just because you doubt what a captured spy is telling you is stupid.  If it was more tactically advantageous for the Empire to blow the planet up instead of take it over or otherwise ensure access to the factories and farms it held it would be one thing, but the evidence we have suggests a bit of "because I can" kind of thinking going on among the higher-ups among the Empire.

I love his apparent double standards in using the Expanded Universe however.  In the movies, yes the Rebel Alliance don't go into great details regarding their post-war plan but then we don't get a great deal of insight into how the Empire works either.  We only really know that they really don't like bounty hunters and that they're all human (seriously, all the alien villains in the original trilogy were working for the Hutts or guns for hire.)  So how do we know that the Empire is a meritocracy without consulting sources outside of the movies?  For that matter, how did he know Han attended an Imperial military academy?  All we really got in the movie was that he was a smuggler who owed money to the wrong people.  Having another character call him "captain" isn't really much since if you own and run a ship large enough to require a crew bigger then yourself, you're a captain by default.  Granted, it's been awhile since I saw the movies so my memory might be wrong...

Impressive read, and well-written I might add.

Originally posted by RoosterNash

Originally posted by Drachasor

Those who'd trade a little freedom for a bit of security deserve neither.
 

You do know that going with the Sith might easily mean you'd end up a slave or dead, right?  The Republic is a heck of a lot safer.  In addition, for all your talk of the Republic "taking away" freedoms, you have a lot more freedoms and rights there than under the Empire.  I'm sure Vader or a Sith (or Stormtroopers) would be slightly amused by your protests about how "exaggerated" they are behaving before they kill you or take away your stuff.

Beyond that, the whole "promising freedom unconditionally" is kinda silly.  What government that can actually exist promises that?  At a starting point, there's the old saying that your freedom stops at the end of my nose.  This general principle is the reason for a LOT of the "lack of freedom" in modern societies, because the rights of others must be taken into account.  Still, that's a heck of a lot more freedom than you'd get in Nazi Germany or a Sith Empire.

 

 

Idiotic, conformist ideals. And, again, another honorable mention of Nazi Germany as a comparrison to the Sith empire. They aren't as comparable as people detail. Sure, that was the idea behind Lucas' vision. But Lucas failed to inact a sovereign look into the eyes of the Sith. Everything was one-sided and vague. So, feel free to assume that everyone under an empire are unjustly mistreated. But continue to remember that Americans and the like are losing freedoms on a daily basis, not to mention that we know very little of what goes on with our government and their plans for our future. It's a cloaking system. If you choose to live in blind faith, by all means, do so. But I prefer to know my future, whether it be life or certain death. Then again, I'm not an idiot, so that's granted.

Hah, that's funny.  Someone is accusing me, a socialist, atheist, pragmatist, utilitarian, etc, etc of being conformist.  There are a lot of things I'm guilty of, but conformity isn't one of them.  Heck, sometimes I think prospective parents should be require to get a license before procreating (but I think it would be far easier and of similar or better effectiveness to involve the community in child rearing and improve our general education methods in K-12).  I just thought the quote was appropriate, since you seem to want to pay a greater price than what you'd be getting in return.  A little order isn't worth a totalitarian regime that commits genocide and slavery.
 

Alderaan was agreed to have no weapons at all.  The Empire blew it up.  We call that Genocide.  Is that fact that it was easier and more tidy than the Holocaust somehow make that ok or significantly different to you?  It should not.

I never said everyone under the Empire was unjustly treated.  I said it was a lot like Nazi Germany.  Guess what, everyone in Nazi Germany wasn't unjustly treated either.  That doesn't mean it wasn't a vile regime.  Treating everyone badly is actually kinda hard and very stupid to do (from the perspective of maintaining power and influence over the long term).  North Korea mostly seems to manage it, but very few other civilizations ever have.

"Losing freedoms on a daily basis"...really?  Name one we've lost in the last week.  Heck, name one we lost in the last year and 10 we've lost in the last decade (now, I'll grant you the act that Bush got passed takes some privacy away, and you can count those, but there's really not much else).  Also, you seem to think the government is somehow organized enough to be plotting in secret.  That's laughable.  They can't even put aside their differences to reform the mess that our Health Care is in.  They are so easily swayed by special interests and funding sources for future campaigns that they have generally lost perspective on what the heck it is they are there to do.  They certainly don't have the foresight needed to plot anything together -- they'd have to at least be competent to do something like that, and they aren't.  Or, to use another great quote "don't mistake incompetence for malice."

If you hold more than one perspective, you stop thinking in absolutes. The Jedi are right in that regard, but only that regard. They have their own absolutes - the bloody hypocrites!

They're a religious order, and they have their silly laws that cause more harm than good. Honestly, would Anakin have turned if he wasn't so afraid of his affairs with Amidala or what bad things he'd done in the past? The guilt trips the Jedi put people through are anything but constructive.

"Don't kill people unless they're evil." Well what merits 'evil'? Opposition to your single point of view?

Silly, silly fiction.

Both sides are equally "meh." The empire is about controlling people in one way and the rebellion is about controlling them in another. Pick your poison, it would still suck either way.