I'm probably going to get flamed here, but to be honest, I have to agree mostly with the OP's stand. I don't really like the idea of spending more money on top of paying a monthly subscription. For free to play and buy to play games, I do not mind at all, because after all, these companies do have to make money somehow. However, if I'm already paying for a monthly fee, then I would be extremely reluctant to spend more on things that I probably wouldn't need. I feel that the extra's should be included in the monthly fee, but it is up to the companies to decide how they should run their business.

Originally posted by girlgeek

 

As always, Sovrath is logical. As usual, an OP telling others what to do is pathetic.

 

As soon as someone ELSE is paying my gaming bills....they can tell me what to do. Until then, they can piss off and do what THEY want to do with the money THEY earn. The self-righteousness of some people is truly amazing. They can spend their own hard earned cash on whatever they want, but they somehow feel entitled to try to convince others that their choices are not legitimate.

 

FFS I wish people would just f**king learn the VALUE of the motto "Live and Let Live." Mind your OWN business, OP, and everyone else will tend to THEIR own business and their own choices. It's really a pretty simple principle.......

 

If I want to spend 10 dollars on something that is enjoyable to ME....guess what? I will.  Conversely, if you want to spend your 10 dollars on something entirely different, and you enjoy it....I could NOT care less. Feel free. It's YOUR money. I have no vested interest in how you choose to spend your money or your free time or anything else. It doesn't even remotely matter. And you know what....it shouldn't.  I pay my own bills. And just the SECOND someone else decides to pay all of that FOR me.....they're more than welcome to determine what gets spent on what. Until then....I think I'll just continue to live my own life, make my own decisions, suffer my own consequences (when there are any), and take responsibility for my self and my own actions, and....it's probably advisable other adults do the same, even though I know that's sort of a novel concept around MMORPG.com. People here seem, overall, very good at jumping on bandwagons of "the popular outrage of the hour."  Right now, it's RMT.  

 

Controversy and lemmings seem to be great bed fellows..... *sigh*

Live and Let Live.

Make your own decisions.

Take responsibility for your own actions, failures, and successes.

Allow others to do the same.

Life 101.

 

As usual Girlgeek, you put a smile on my face with your matter-of-factly down-to-earth common sense. A silent majority to be sure here, but you'll always have my support and my admiration. 

Originally posted by Aladyleyna

 I'm probably going to get flamed here, but to be honest, I have to agree mostly with the OP's stand. I don't really like the idea of spending more money on top of paying a monthly subscription. For free to play and buy to play games, I do not mind at all, because after all, these companies do have to make money somehow. However, if I'm already paying for a monthly fee, then I would be extremely reluctant to spend more on things that I probably wouldn't need. I feel that the extra's should be included in the monthly fee, but it is up to the companies to decide how they should run their business.

 

At the same time, I also do not believe in forcing other people to agree to my opinions. These are just that; opinions. I hate people forcing their opinions down my throat, and even worse, going into personal insults when I am still not convinced that they are correct. This is why I try not to do the same thing to other people.

I think it is absolutely fine for people to agree with the OP.  I also think it's perfectly fine that some people do not. Free thinking is a good thing!! :)

And on the "forcing opinions down my throat"......

Over the past couple of years I have noticed a strong insurgence of this in the arena of gaming and all things related to gaming. It's almost as if gaming has become a religion, complete with evangelists and virtual "door to door" preaching. And to that....I say the exact same thing I would say to the churches if THEY come to my door:

"I appreciate your zeal, but I am just as zealous in my beliefs, the only difference is....I'm not going to show up on your front porch and try to persuade you that I'm right."  

I can say the EXACT same thing here.

Originally posted by girlgeek

As always, Sovrath is logical. As usual, an OP telling others what to do is pathetic.

 

As soon as someone ELSE is paying my gaming bills....they can tell me what to do. Until then, they can piss off and do what THEY want to do with the money THEY earn. The self-righteousness of some people is truly amazing. They can spend their own hard earned cash on whatever they want, but they somehow feel entitled to try to convince others that their choices are not legitimate.

 

FFS I wish people would just f**king learn the VALUE of the motto "Live and Let Live." Mind your OWN business, OP, and everyone else will tend to THEIR own business and their own choices. It's really a pretty simple principle.......

 

If I want to spend 10 dollars on something that is enjoyable to ME....guess what? I will.  Conversely, if you want to spend your 10 dollars on something entirely different, and you enjoy it....I could NOT care less. Feel free. It's YOUR money. I have no vested interest in how you choose to spend your money or your free time or anything else. It doesn't even remotely matter. And you know what....it shouldn't.  I pay my own bills. And just the SECOND someone else decides to pay all of that FOR me.....they're more than welcome to determine what gets spent on what. Until then....I think I'll just continue to live my own life, make my own decisions, suffer my own consequences (when there are any), and take responsibility for my self and my own actions, and....it's probably advisable other adults do the same, even though I know that's sort of a novel concept around MMORPG.com. People here seem, overall, very good at jumping on bandwagons of "the popular outrage of the hour."  Right now, it's RMT.  

 

Controversy and lemmings seem to be great bed fellows..... *sigh*

Live and Let Live.

Make your own decisions.

Take responsibility for your own actions, failures, and successes.

Allow others to do the same.

Life 101.

 

Honestly I dont think anyone has a problem with discretionary spending, as long as that discretionary spending does not negatively impact others experience.

Unlike real life, MMO's have the capability to both level the playing field and allow those who do not have advantages others do in life to experience a different kind of reality.

At the risk of sounding like a bleeding heart (far from it... Im probably one of the most fiscally conservative individuals youll meet), mechanisms that encourage individuals in humanity who lack advantage to experience an existence, however trivial, where their own work matters is healthy, and it teaches people the value of personal achievement.

MMO companies that exploit the free to play model by turning into a pay to win model (which is the crux of peoples concerns here-- and which does in fact happen regularly in games today -- see any game made by Perfect World Entertainment, Vestgame's World of Kungfu, and a whole host of other "free to play, but pay to win" games for examples) undermine what can be a positive social mechanism and turn it into a wholly cash hungry arena meant only to be played by corporate executives with too much time on their hands who like to beat up broke kids, and brag about it --- or on the flipside its turned into a game played by Vietnamese and Chinese individuals who are paid in game currency for their labor and encouraged to make life unpleasant for players as a means of driving up sales due to competitive pressure!

And dont think thats not what happens in many Free to Play game models!  Unfortunately its been rather well documented.

So how about we get the debate back on track here, if there ever was one.  If there was not, how about we give this debate some actual perspective?

The true concern here is not whether someone wants to tell you how to spend your money.  Its how much money is reasonable to ask from an MMO developer to its consumers, and where is the line between fair market profit and rapacious 19th century tycoon brand capitalism?

Originally posted by joker007mo

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Apham

If we are talking about television now then yes the normal now is to have the basic set of channels and then a set of exclusives that  the user can access with additional payment per month. Why is this alright? We as a society have accepted it as so and so it is.

ATM with subscription mmorpgs within North America as per the release of EQ, AO, and AC "back in the day"  the norm was set for a fee per month and people were happy with this so it became accepted as the norm for access to an mmorpg.

Again companies are now looking for addiitonal sources of revenue now, be it greed or necessity for the company's survival. IF we as consumers are willing to pay then it WILL become the new normal. Which in this case the OP is pointing out his discontent for. Nothing wrong with that and I support his case.

 

But it's all about perceived value.

If people found that paying for premium content was a huge rip off they wouldn't pay for it. Or in some cases shouldn't pay for it.

If someone charged 200 dollars for an in game item I don't believe most people would buy it. It wouldn't be worth it. But if I'm in a game and spending 5 dollars so I don't look like a clown or so that I can change my character's looks would make me more satisfied then I am willing to do so as it really isn't a big deal to me.

 

i dont care if its 200 or 5 if they are asking for a sub from me and then asking for  me to pay for a character slot of extra content unlocked ok no big. But when there is a store where they are asking me to buy things that will "help" my character then no i wont pay for any of it ill just go play something else. Because in the long run yea youll end up spending way more then you wanted on a game that you coulda just payed one straight fee and didnt have to waste on extras.  But then i dont make much money or have any fancy accts. I pick one game and stick to that I dont have the money to go throwing around on extra crap on top of the sub im paying already and i might add i notice your whole ira speech came right after someone mentioned mommy's/daddies credit card underlying issues much?

 

not to beat this dead horse but as I stated, I  "took umbrage" at being called a fool who lived off of his mother's credit card. It seemed that that individual was stating that if anyone took advantage of such things then they must be li'l credit kiddies.

My thought is that there are many responsible adults out there who work hard, take care of their finances and who in the end can decide for themselves whether or not they desire to buy a silly pet who will follow them around in the game and drool pixie dust. Had I known that was going to draw such ire or that I would have been berated I would have made up something far sexier, yachts, billions between the cushions of my couch, solid gold plated rocket car. All of which I don't have as I work hard for my money like you.

Yes, it's silliness to purchase online knick knacks but it's just as silly as going to the movies and paying, what, 5 dollars or so for popcorn.

popcorn. Five Dollars.

Or go to a game and buy over priced and watered down beer. Or buy cigarettes. I mean really, they offer nothing nutritious, they are expensive, they are bad for your health, and in my opinion it's like rolling up your money and setting it on fire. But I'm sure as hell not going to tell people that they should or shouldn't buy cigarettes. It's just not my place. I don't tell my friends who smoke nor lecture to them so I certainly would never tell a stranger that they should be donig x with their money.

Or it's like the city of Boston telling people that smoking is bad so they are closing down the cigar bars. I mean what the heck? These people have earned their money and should have the right to go into a "cigar bar" and smoke their little hearts out.

But as you said you don't have billions in the bank but I bet you think hard about what you spend it on right? I also bet that you allow yourself a few indulgances small as they might be and that these indulgences might also be just as silly. I also bet that anyone telling you how to live your life or spend your money would get more than a mouthful?

And the more I think about it, if I'm going to band together with people over consumer choice it will be over something that really matters to me. Such as music. I won't pay fees so that I can rent my music. That is a sin in my eyes. However, I bet there are a lot of people who would say "what's the big deal, you get more music for less money, win/win". Not to me.

So I do understand the underlying emotional push for game players to be up in arms. After I wrote my example about the music it got me thinking a good part of the night that in the end they are not too different. As the other gentlemen put it, there are companies charging for a service but should they be charging for that service in the way that it is offered.

And I'd have to say that though I can commiserate, when it comes down to video game items I still don't care as long as it is of value to me.

So perhaps when it comes down to paying for music services you would tell me that you don't care and that it's a good value.

Which goes back to my original statement that it comes down to what we perceive as a value and worth our money.

Originally posted by dar_es_balat

 The true concern here is not whether someone wants to tell you how to spend your money.  Its how much money is reasonable to ask from an MMO developer to its consumers, and where is the line between fair market profit and rapacious 19th century tycoon brand capitalism?

Fine question, but an answer will never come. Every one has a different idea of what's too much, and with the rage going on atm with RMT's, it's only becoming more prevalent.

As long there will be a demand for it, and a more defined ratio of RMT users to non-users...you'll be debating and arguing for a long, long time.

So, what's the point?! This question has been hashed re-hashed here on Mmorpg on countless threads as it is, how will one more get closer to a conclusion?

Easy answer, if the game you're playing has something that is a game-breaker for you. Stop playing and Paying and you'll have yourself the solution.

Originally posted by girlgeek

Originally posted by Aladyleyna

 I'm probably going to get flamed here, but to be honest, I have to agree mostly with the OP's stand. I don't really like the idea of spending more money on top of paying a monthly subscription. For free to play and buy to play games, I do not mind at all, because after all, these companies do have to make money somehow. However, if I'm already paying for a monthly fee, then I would be extremely reluctant to spend more on things that I probably wouldn't need. I feel that the extra's should be included in the monthly fee, but it is up to the companies to decide how they should run their business.

 

At the same time, I also do not believe in forcing other people to agree to my opinions. These are just that; opinions. I hate people forcing their opinions down my throat, and even worse, going into personal insults when I am still not convinced that they are correct. This is why I try not to do the same thing to other people.

 

I think it is absolutely fine for people to agree with the OP.  I also think it's perfectly fine that some people do not. Free thinking is a good thing!! :)

 

And on the "forcing opinions down my throat"......

 

Over the past couple of years I have noticed a strong insurgence of this in the arena of gaming and all things related to gaming. It's almost as if gaming has become a religion, complete with evangelists and virtual "door to door" preaching. And to that....I say the exact same thing I would say to the churches if THEY come to my door:

 

"I appreciate your zeal, but I am just as zealous in my beliefs, the only difference is....I'm not going to show up on your front porch and try to persuade you that I'm right."  

 

I can say the EXACT same thing here.

 

 

it's interesting you say that because those very thoughts have been going through my mind. Oh, this is not to say people with differing opinions are zealots, hardly, but there does seem to be this feeling that people who offer somewhat new ideas of video gaming and online games are iconoclasts.

Originally posted by dar_es_balat

 

So how about we get the debate back on track here, if there ever was one.  If there was not, how about we give this debate some actual perspective?

The true concern here is not whether someone wants to tell you how to spend your money.  Its how much money is reasonable to ask from an MMO developer to its consumers, and where is the line between fair market profit and rapacious 19th century tycoon brand capitalism?

I deleted for length but those are very good points and it does give one pause in thinking about the subject. Especially when I'm able to make the correlation with music services. It's something that I will have to think about a bit as deep down I still don't "feel" the bad for buying a cosmetic item in a game.

I WOULD feel bad for buying somethign that gave me a game advantage however and wouldn't do it.

Originally posted by strangepower

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by strangepower

Its an very OLD saying ,

 

" A fool and his money are soon parted"

 

I can only imagine how this plays out when its not even your money to be spending ie. Mom or Dads Credit card.

 

 

So if I went into your life I woudl see that every purchase that you made could be considered justifiable and logical?

I take umbrage at people telling me how to live my life. I suspect you would as well, no? However, to the point, I already have several retirment accounts and no debt so I feel that I can be free to spend my hard earned money on anything I desire. Thank you very much.

Spending a few dollars on an added character slot, the ability to change my character's looks or a cosmetic item is in the realm of "acceptable" for me.

 

 

1.  Never stated I have not acted a fool before. Its a OLD saying that has proven to have much merit.

2. Nobody told you how to live your "lol" life.

3. I really don't know, but ill take a stab at calling you an outright "LIAR"

You really propose that an individual who has "SEVERAL" IRA's and is debit free, is going to be surfing the internet on an MMO site?

Several IRA's and Zero debt would be the earmark of a brilliant professional.

Not an angry gamer that has a severe case of imagined "umbrage"...What the hell is Umbrage"? 

You can fool your online buddies but not me Mr. "SEVERAL IRA'S"

 

That's some funny shit.

Absolutely.  I'm one of them.  I don't think either either of us care if you are fooled or not.

Originally posted by Rinna

Don't pay for additional pixels - please.  All gamers should band together to insure this practice doesn't become a trend.  Start paying for out of game pixels now and tomorrow we'll have to pay for everything that is currently part of a "normal monthly subscription'.

What are your thoughts on subscription fees going up to 19.95 and everyone gets extra hats and pets?  Sub fees for MMOs haven't changed in almost a decade, but costs across the board to create and maintain one have definitely increased. 

I'm all for everyone paying extra so that I can have my extra features.

 Over the past couple of years I have noticed a strong insurgence of this in the arena of gaming and all things related to gaming. It's almost as if gaming has become a religion, complete with evangelists and virtual "door to door" preaching.

Haha, precisely! That was the exact same thing on my mind, which was why my post ended up being subconciously worded that way.

It's almost scary really, people trying to convert and at the same time, demean other players over the games they play. It's just gaming anyway, there really is no need for people to be up in arms about it. Religion I can understand but gaming? Seesh.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Rinna

Don't pay for additional pixels - please.  All gamers should band together to insure this practice doesn't become a trend.  Start paying for out of game pixels now and tomorrow we'll have to pay for everything that is currently part of a "normal monthly subscription'.

 

hmmm, sorry but I think I will if it is of value to me.

Hello Part of the Problem, pleased to see you again...

Originally posted by Rinna

Free Realms, Wizard 101, Blizzards new store... all selling items for additional money over and above their monthly fee. 

I don't subscribe to many asian games but I've heard that this type of gaming is the norm in Asia.  You pay your monthly fee, then on top of that, you pay additional money for everything else.  Items, Mounts, non combat fun pets, clothes etc... all cost additional money over and above the monthly fee.

Sony's Free Realms charges you for "Station Cash" so that you can buy the best in-game items.  Wizard 101 has a "Crown" System... you buy crowns outside of your monthly fee for armor, mounts, weapons.  Blizzards new store... the panda and KT pets... 10 bucks for each OUTSIDE the normal monthly fee.  (Yes I know half of the panda purchase goes to a charity).  You can even go further and look at Club Pogo's "gem system"... pay a monthly fee... oh but by the way, this subscription doesn't get you the best stuff... only a basic set of stuff... everything else is extra.

I would hate to see this become the trend for N. American gaming.  Where out of greed, eventually we make it acceptable for gaming companies to not only charge us a monthly fee, but to bend us over every chance they get if we want the coolest, best, most fun "stuff" in game.

Don't pay for additional pixels - please.  All gamers should band together to insure this practice doesn't become a trend.  Start paying for out of game pixels now and tomorrow we'll have to pay for everything that is currently part of a "normal monthly subscription'.

Stop preaching your bible, this is not a church.  Games are games, let people play the way they wanted.

Stop telling us what to do with our money and game time.  Mind your own business.

RMT in a game is not the end of the world.  You do not need to run a campaign to stop it.  Try to stop global warming.  That is a much bigger issue, or racism.  Or excessive mining deforestation and whatever stupid human projects that is killing our mother nature.

/rant off.

Originally posted by dar_es_balat

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

 

Why do you care about what others do with their money, in games where what they buy has no impact on you playing the game.

 

Its a rhetorical question, that I know the answer to. but I would like to hear you're answer.

 

 

More often than not How do you count often? number of game?  does it matter? if there are games that charges by ways you like it, go play those game.  Forget about games you do not like, but others like.  More often than not, people with narrow mindsets like you have a long list of people you are jealous about, so what? go rambo with a machine gun? these items do actually have an impact on your playing.  What happens with this pay-extra junk or pay-as-you-go gaming is those who bankroll the game end up having uber items, massively refined gear, and aggressive pets that actually turn their characters into little dieties. what the hell does that have to do with you.  don't play it.

But its just them, so why worry?  Just ignore it.  --- Sound like Im anticipating your thoughts yet?  Sounds like you need to respect what others decide for their own.  Mind your own business.

Ive played these types of games.  The natural progression is such an obsessive amount of corporate greed that soon corporations start making their uber items "LOTTERY" based, so you pay a cash shop prize for a chance to win this item... chances are not cumulative, so be prepared to start dropping $200, $300, or $500 to get that uber item you were looking for.  I wonder why you play a game which you hated so muc, just stop playing.

Yes, a fool and his money are soon parted.  Who is the fool?  You?  Everyone spending money on things you disapprove is a fool?  So you are the judge today?  Excellent quote.  Here's another:

"Anyway, no drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power."

The Pay as You Go and Pay for Extras model inevitably leads you down the path above, as corporations desire money more than they desire your happiness, and players desire to win more than they desire to cooperate.  Crytal ball reading, where do you buy that crystal ball.  Can you tell me the weather on Mars tomorrow?  I am sorry I do not notice you are so knowledgeale

You are the wisest man on earth, you read the minds of every major developer, and know their plans in the future, even though the developers themselves do not yet have a plan.  You also read my mind and you know I will buy this or that.  Ah wise one.

You are also the only judge on earth, what you do not approve is foolish, and people doing that are fools.

What else can you tell us?  That you have wings and you can travel in time?

Originally posted by vinzone

I think people are missing the point, this isn't about whether you're willing to spend the money in a cash shop or not. If we're already paying $15 a month we shouldn't have to spend the extra cash to get cool items we should be able to get those items through playing the game!

Now I don't mind cash shops I think they have a place in MMOs but F2P is where they should stay. I like what Turbine has done with DDO you can play completely free or pay a monthly fee for VIP status and get all the character slots, races, adventures etc.. or you can play free and buy whatever you need in the cash shop when you want it and not have to worry about that monthly fee. It has worked pretty well for DDO so far and I wouldn't mind seeing more companies try this model out.

Cool, you don't like that business model don't subscribe.

Preaching your bible, however is a step beyond the line, we hear your reason, we need not agree with you or your ideas.  While we respect your decision, we wish to retain the freedom to arrive at our own decision.

Business operators also have their own freedom to decide on pricing.  Why must a flat fee be levied on everything that is available in game, not everyone want to buy everything.  It is like pricing every car with leather seat, luxurious fur and fancy carpets.  What if I only want a car with simple fabric seats and plastic carpet?

If they charge a basic, and impose fees for additionals, I would be very happy, as I only need to start paying the minimal and save my money, not needing to pay for everything.  I pick each additional I like.

As for whether the minimal service justifies the basic charge, it has to be evaluated game for game.  No sweeping conclusion.  I do not believe that any crap game developer can randomly create useless items in a crappy game, put up a price tag and it automatically sells.  Do you buy everything that is available in a supermarket?

Originally posted by dar_es_balat

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by dar_es_balat

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by strangepower

 IRA's are worthless unless they ....um...have value.  So your point is you maintained 3 low value accounts.

Gotta love that quantity as opposed to quality.

 

lol, no my point is I have 3 diversified accounts which I have invested a decent amount of money for my eventual retirement. After which I have no debt. Therefore what I do with my money since I have taken care of the important issues for living is my own business.

 

Obviously what you do about your money is brag about it.   Those who brag generally do so because there is a truth they are avoiding.

So whats your truth:  Are you just a broke ass trying to front, or are your diversified IRAs really quite small... so you are telling the truth in saying you have them, but attempting to make the public believe they are bigger than reality in order to lend your arguments a false sense of credibility.

For the record:  In algebra one of the first lessons imparted is to never compare apples to oranges.  To do so is poor logic and it will result in an erroneous conclusion.

Comparing Cable Television add ons to MMO add ons is comparing apples to oranges.  You have arrived at an erroneous conclusion (and also invented a straw man to beat on... hey if youre picking on MMOs youre also picking on cable TV!).  Check your logic.  And your argumentative tactice.  Theyre both rubbish.

 

That's a very cynical way of looking at the world and one I do not share.

Regardless, the point is that I have taken steps toward my retirement and have no debt. Therefore I am not someone who should be using my money elsewhere as I have taken care of the important aspects of living.

Therefore what I do with my extra money is my own business.

And I still maintain that spending additional money on such things like extra movies which used to be included with regular cable is the same thing as spending additional money on trivial items in a game.

You have a basic service and you then have the choice to spend extra on the things you want.

 

It seems to me you are looking at things from a monetary perspective only, and not from the perspective of the type of service offered.

Adopting that approach -

Would you consider it then proper to have a Supermarket offer Corn Flakes,  Eggs, Milk, and Ground Beef to its customers at standard prices, but then have them pay  entrance fees into premium areas where they could then diversify their cereals, dairy, and meat choices to better suit their tastes?  Depending on the level of diversity your fees could go up substantially, but so could your level of enjoyment!  Oh, youll still need to pay for the cost of food as well!  Its not free you know!

From a monetary standpoint this makes sense.  The consumer can obtain the basics, and pays extra for variety.  From a corporate standpoint, this also makes sense.   More money!  From a personal standpoint however this is nonsensical on many levels.

If you dont understand the fallacy of your logical path after looking at this example of where the path leads... well I can only say your passion for being correct is likely interfering with your understanding!

From a personal standpoint its nonsense.  So?  You are just writing a lot to tell us that you do not like it.  There is no logic just your personal standpoint.  You have no basis to discredit any other gamer's decision, just your PERSONAL standpoint, which is PERSONAL and need not be shared by others.

Originally posted by Rinna

Yes, I also have no issue with a free-to-play MMO charging money for in-game items to procure revenue or profit.

I have an issue with MMO's charging monthly subscriptions and THEN charging far above that, in bits and pieces for additional items that whether cosmetic or actual stats make you better than everyone else.  That feels like a trend companies are attempting to guide us (like sheep), to enhance their bottom line.   Someone said they wouldn't pay $200 dollars for an in game sword... but they nickel and dime you to the point that you have spent that.

Wow... 11 million x 14 bucks = 154 million a month?  But they need an additional 10 bucks for a Kelthuzud cat pet?

We have the ability to choose what our mmo's are going to feel like 5 and 10 years from now. 

Companies guilding you, so you fall for it?  Or you mean you are blaming companies for purchase decisions because they exist?  Once again, I ask, do you buy everything in a supermarket just because they are available?

You want flat fees for everything.  Some other gamers prefer basic fees for basic common services, and ad hoc charges for extras.  Still some others don't care as long as the game is fun and the fees (however it is charged) are appropriate.  That is it.  Why all the fuss?

Don't start telling me things will slide to hell tomorrow.  You do not read tomorrow.  Nor do I.

Originally posted by Irishoak

You do not need an analogy to explain it, people have been trained to be consumers, not smart ones at that. Eventually greed will ruin most of the MMO scene and it will "reset" when someone pushes something out that has a reasonable business model. Then greed will creep back in and see how far we'll go.

You are just indirectly telling us you are the smart consumer, anyone else not following your footsteps are not smart.

Oh great one, pls publish a book telling us how to be smart.  But print it free, or we will see you as driven by greed.  Mail one to me free please, on the double.  Not paying of course, as I am trained by you to be smart.  I need not pay but I want everything.

Lisubab is on FIRE!!!

Originally posted by dar_es_balat

I agree.  The core of your statement is absolutely correct.  I also pay for thing I value, and have done so in MMOs.

The issue comes from the nature of the consumer and the nature of the service provider, and hence the difference in the type of service being offered must be considered when one offers a premium model based service.

In the medical example above it is clearly exploitation of the patients to charge for premium services.  Why?

Because it is in the patients nature to want to live.   The doctor is therefore taking advantage of the patient for personal profit, moving other patients back one notch for each premium subscriber.  Not only is this unethical from a personal standpoint, but it clearly is in violation of the Doctors Hippocratic Oath to treat all patients in need.  The doctor has added a caveat to those seeking his treatment.

With regard to MMO gaming it is in the players nature to be greater than they are in reality.

Nobody plays MMOs to be an average Joe.  We play to do things we cant otherwise do.  At its core it is basically driven by a need to stand out in some way from the crowd.  So that is why you play games?  b/c you cannot shine in RL so you want to shine in a game?  And that automatically becomes the reason why everyone play games?  We are all born as your twin sibbling?  How that desire is expressed is as individual as the players themselves.   A subscription based model gives all players the same tools to make this happen so the player with more time on hand can do better and that is high ground moral, god's blessing?, and lets the players have at it in a relatively non predatory fashion.  Sure there is profit generated, but it is not generated rapaciously.

Paying for extra items ingame... this is indeed rapacious.   Many people who play MMOs play because they are hopelessly average you are hopeless average, try not to expand that beyond yourself, you do not know me or any of the other millions gamers, or even below average in reality.   Massive amounts of extra charges can and do cause these types of individuals severe problems.   I personally have known one gamer who committed suicide after driving himself into a financial crisis on the game Ashoron's Call that one example becomes a norm or an inevitable reality for every gamer?.  This game was a subscription game where Ebay was used by players seeking to go above and beyond what their own gaming provided them.     As recently as a month ago a gaming friend lost his house due to being unable to pay his mortgage for months.  Why?  He had spent THOUSANDS on the game Jade Dynasty, which has only been out since June!  And hes not the only one who has seen a large bill come from this game the AVERAGE Jade Dynasty player spends well over $50 a month on gaming fees.  Oh I think congress should pass laws because 1 person did this or that.  We should invade Russia because 1 Russian student is writing a thesis on how to invade USA.

There comes a point where we as gamers and as individuals need to take a look at what the standards and practices are of the corporations producing our modes of entertainment.   Rapacious companies should be avoided.   Advantageous tactics should be curtailed.  Who is the one to decide for us all?  You?

Can I decide on it for myself?

 

Hmm you based your campaign on a couple cases, cases you tell us, but we never know if that is the truth.  You surely have a very solid ground to put up your case.