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News & Features Discussion  » General: Jennings: Real Money, Real Problems

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  Justarius1

Novice Member

Joined: 9/23/09
Posts: 385

There are two secrets to success in life. (1) - Never reveal everything you know.

11/23/09 8:12:12 PM#121
Originally posted by Gyrus
Originally posted by Justarius1

Still no comments on the only thing that would actually make a difference in the gold farming problem - public accounts of what monetary and other valuables players have.  Put it all out there for everyone to see.  If you suddenly get 5000 gold mailed to you, it's tracked and available for anyone to find out - including your guild members, friends, etc.

The 20% would be knocked into shape by the 80% really, really fast if obvious cheaters and gold purchasers were so easy to find.  They could go be pariahs and play in their own little cheater guilds if they wanted, or they could decide to play nice and join the larger community.

See this link and read this page of the long, well thought article for another author's POV on this:

http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001493.php?page=15

Anything other than this solution is just simple black market vs. the cops economics, and we see how well that works in the real world.  If people who smoked crack suddenly turned blue and everyone could peg them as a crack smoker immediately, it's highly likely there would be many, many fewer people who would ever even try crack.

:)

It could certainly be tried.  Personally i think that you would simply split the player base into "Gold Buyers" and "Non-Gold Buyers" (with associated guilds) with the Gold farming continuing as normal but trying harder to recruit from the non buying crowd?
In fact - if the Gold Buying Guilds were to do better then that might accelerate the gold farming activities?

I think the big problem you face is: Is gold buying cheating?  Is it Morally wrong?
Elikal addressed this in post # 95
As for the argument: if I pay a chinese to sell me gold, I am not paying the gold, because gold in a MMO is nothing. I pay his work time. Thats something different. Its as if I would call my sister, tell her to play my EQ character for 1 week and make some money and XP and then pay her 20 Euro. I pay her time, which is her's to give, not that of a game company. I still find it would be odd or silly. Either you have fun playing a MMO or not, but it's not morally evil. ... I worked for the money and I can spent it as ever I wish.

I agree with his stance.

Personally I see no point in paying for a game and then using cheat codes and power leveling and gold buying to finish it ASAP.
I play games for entertainment - but that is just me.
If other people want to use these services then that's their call and the only time it concerns me at all is when they interact with me.  With many MMOs being so 'solo friendly' and PvE then in those cases it shouldn't matter at all.

As for PvP?  There it may matter?  Depends on the game design.

But again, attempting to stop gold farming with a moral objection is pointless.  The people who use the services and the people who provide the services are simply filling a need.
If players would rather pay someone else to play your game than play it themselves then you need to reconsider your game design.  If players 'need' to buy gold from a third party to get the items they need in your game then, again, look at your design.

If it is profitable to be a gold farmer in your game then maybe you should look at why and how to make it less so?

Edit: Which is kind of where we started - isn't it?

 

 

Is Gold Farming cheating?  Is it wrong?

I won't answer that except to say that if the information was made public we could all as players and guilds easily see the information and decide who we wanted to play with based on that info.

And if the information WAS made public and the community decided it was cheating and wrong (like most developers do now) - then making everything public would make the cheaters THAT much easier to identify and eliminate.

I still don't see how people don't get this no brainer.  Make everything public.  Problem solved - you don't want gold farmers in your game?  Make funds public and let players report each other.  If I know GoldBuyer XX has 4000 gold on Tuesday and 50,000 on Wednesday, I might send a GM a note to "investigate."

Every social study every done shows that when people are forced to act with transparency, when misdoings are made public, everyone wins because everyone behaves better - it's the policing effect of the herd community.

  just1opinion

Smart-Alek

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 4933

11/23/09 8:54:34 PM#122
Originally posted by bamdorf

 

When people engage in a game activity of any kind, they engage with the expectation that other players will follow the same rules that they agreed to follow before they started to play.

Whether those rules are "arguable" or not is not the point here.   If you don't like the rules...you are not obligated to play.

So if you understand the rules clearly --- and anyone posting here must --- and chose to break the rules, its not just that you are a cheater, by definition.

Its that you are degrading the game experience for everyone else who have the colossally weird idea that they should follow the rules.

Like a friend of mine who commented recently after an experience in Wintergrasp (WOW) that an opposing toon had wiped them flat in no time.      You don't think it might just make a difference to someone that the other toon bought their superiority?

Sounds like it might just crush the life out of one's game experience.    What's the point.

But then anyone rationalizing breaking an agreement is only thinking about themselves.    They don't care about any body else, so cheating doesn't matter.

 

 

Thank you for saying everything I was thinking, and MUCH more eloquently.

President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club

  Gyrus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/20/07
Posts: 2323

11/23/09 9:55:28 PM#123
Originally posted by girlgeek
Originally posted by bamdorf

 

....

Whether those rules are "arguable" or not is not the point here.   If you don't like the rules...you are not obligated to play.

...

 

 

Thank you for saying everything I was thinking, and MUCH more eloquently.

What is wrong with you people?

Seriously?

FACT: GOLD FARMING EXISTS.

Can any of you deny it?  barndorf? girlgeek? Ozmodan?

Now for all your WORDS do you have any solution on how to stop it?
 

Tell them they are "cheating"? 
Might have been done already I think?
Gold farming still exists.


Tell them they are "not obligated to play"? 
I'm pretty sure they know that.  But they are making money.
Gold farming still exists.


Ban the account.?
Not only does this allow them to get their money back it also results in charges for the MMO company.
The Goldfarmer meanwhile creates a new account through an IP anonymiser and is straight back in the game.
Seriously... if the solution was that easy gold farming would have ceased to exist.
Gold farming still exists.

 

So, for all your words, your moral outrage, your definitions and your fairy dust coated dreams on how the world should be...
GOLD FARMING STILL EXISTS.
 

Only Justarius1 has offered any solution.  Personally, I don't think it would work because again it relies on a moral judgement from the players.  However, his solution also offers a solution based on social interaction - which is an interesting approach.
If nothing else I would like to see his method trial just as a social experiment.
 

 

Edit:  Look at it like this.  YOU have to walk into the NC Soft CEOs office tomorrow and offer a solution.  What do you have to offer?

Walking in and saying "Cheating in wrong and against the rules!" is not going to keep you employed is it?
 

 

Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  Justarius1

Novice Member

Joined: 9/23/09
Posts: 385

There are two secrets to success in life. (1) - Never reveal everything you know.

11/23/09 10:54:15 PM#124
Originally posted by Gyrus
Originally posted by girlgeek
Originally posted by bamdorf

 

....

Whether those rules are "arguable" or not is not the point here.   If you don't like the rules...you are not obligated to play.

...

 

 

Thank you for saying everything I was thinking, and MUCH more eloquently.

What is wrong with you people?

Seriously?

FACT: GOLD FARMING EXISTS.

Can any of you deny it?  barndorf? girlgeek? Ozmodan?

Now for all your WORDS do you have any solution on how to stop it?
 

Tell them they are "cheating"? 
Might have been done already I think?
Gold farming still exists.


Tell them they are "not obligated to play"? 
I'm pretty sure they know that.  But they are making money.
Gold farming still exists.


Ban the account.?
Not only does this allow them to get their money back it also results in charges for the MMO company.
The Goldfarmer meanwhile creates a new account through an IP anonymiser and is straight back in the game.
Seriously... if the solution was that easy gold farming would have ceased to exist.
Gold farming still exists.

 

So, for all your words, your moral outrage, your definitions and your fairy dust coated dreams on how the world should be...
GOLD FARMING STILL EXISTS.
 

Only Justarius1 has offered any solution.  Personally, I don't think it would work because again it relies on a moral judgement from the players.  However, his solution also offers a solution based on social interaction - which is an interesting approach.
If nothing else I would like to see his method trial just as a social experiment.
 

 

Edit:  Look at it like this.  YOU have to walk into the NC Soft CEOs office tomorrow and offer a solution.  What do you have to offer?

Walking in and saying "Cheating in wrong and against the rules!" is not going to keep you employed is it?
 

 

MAKE THE ECONOMY PUBLIC.

I believe I have offered a workable solution, several times, even posted a link to it - 

http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001493.php?page=15

And for those people who just refuse to leave the thread to click the link, here:

"Currently, MMOs do not allow players to police and govern themselves in a practical way regarding gold farming, but imagine if this were possible. If it is true that most players are against the practice, then by giving them a practical means to detect these transactions, self-regulation might emerge. For example, if a character’s financial transaction history is made public, then it becomes possible for that character’s friends or guildmates to detect gold buying behavior. Very few characters would have good reason to get a sudden 300 gold increase from the mail. The problem right now is that gold buying is invisible and thus these players have no accountability. But once that behavior is made public, then accountability emerges. Other players will question that sudden windfall in the mail. Guild members and friends will exert a social pressure where it was impossible to exert before."

Anything else is just basically choosing between which kind of enforcement you want - heavy on the ban-stick and a heavily policed game; or light on the ban stick and an economy where everyone can "cheat" and buy as much gold from a Chinese farmer working 12 hours days in some internet cafe to pay the rent - it all depends on the kind of game you want to play and the kind of people you like to play with.

Me, personally, I like my knowledge public so I can pick who I play with based on similar morals, play style, etc.

 

  LumTheMad

Novice Member

Joined: 11/04/09
Posts: 29

11/23/09 11:23:05 PM#125

Well, this has certainly been an active discussion, and very little of what I could add has not already been addressed. So a few minor points:

Re: chargebacks: they do happen. They are a huge problem (they make customer support even more of a cost than it already is) and yes, they should be handled better. And yes, CC providers have expressed displeasure with MMO companies over their relative frequency compared to other services.

Re: just making an economy public: very few people would be OK with this, I suspect. There's some privacy implications there. It's also sort of a burning down the village to find the crook sort of solution... it may work but the collateral damage would be pretty painful.

Re: RMT as a vice where the demand drives the suppy - this is a point I make frequently, and the demand must be addressed (whether through enforcement, or changing the design that drives that market) much like any other vice that is suppressed.

And finally, as is probably obvious given my new job, I absolutely can't comment about anything specific re: NCsoft, Aion or any huge ban wave that may or may not have taken place this morning. :)

 

  Gyrus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/20/07
Posts: 2323

11/24/09 1:10:23 AM#126
Originally posted by LumTheMad

Well, this has certainly been an active discussion, and very little of what I could add has not already been addressed. So a few minor points:

Re: chargebacks: they do happen. They are a huge problem (they make customer support even more of a cost than it already is) and yes, they should be handled better. And yes, CC providers have expressed displeasure with MMO companies over their relative frequency compared to other services.

So don't do it!  Find a better way.  Isn't that your new job?

Re: just making an economy public: very few people would be OK with this, I suspect. There's some privacy implications there. It's also sort of a burning down the village to find the crook sort of solution... it may work but the collateral damage would be pretty painful.

What? you mean like banning 16,000 accounts? including (no doubt) players who had nothing to do with gold trading.  Players who will no doubt tell their friends what a bunch of ***** NC Soft is.  Some of whom were your friends and who are now your enemies?  Ever heard of a 'hearts and minds' campaign?  It works in reverse too.  And some of the worst most vindictive enemies you can have are former friends.

Re: RMT as a vice where the demand drives the suppy - this is a point I make frequently, and the demand must be addressed (whether through enforcement, or changing the design that drives that market) much like any other vice that is suppressed.

A change in design I can agree on.

And finally, as is probably obvious given my new job, I absolutely can't comment about anything specific re: NCsoft, Aion or any huge ban wave that may or may not have taken place this morning. :)

 http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/260315/page/1

By now, I wonder how many of those account holders have contacted their CC provider and asked for a chargeback?
Have the phones started ringing in accounts department yet?
How much money will this cost NC Soft?

Was it worth it?  Are all the goldfarmers in Aion out of business?
Well, a google of "gold aion" says no.

I am disappointed that the best NC Soft can come up with is still more of the same (tried before and failed) 'banzor them!'.

 

 

 

Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  just1opinion

Smart-Alek

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 4933

11/24/09 9:42:57 AM#127
Originally posted by Gyrus
Originally posted by girlgeek
Originally posted by bamdorf

 

....

Whether those rules are "arguable" or not is not the point here.   If you don't like the rules...you are not obligated to play.

...

 

 

Thank you for saying everything I was thinking, and MUCH more eloquently.

What is wrong with you people?

Seriously?

FACT: GOLD FARMING EXISTS.

Can any of you deny it?  barndorf? girlgeek? Ozmodan?

Now for all your WORDS do you have any solution on how to stop it? Did the OP ask us for solutions? If anyone had any that would WORK....don't you think the major companies would have tried them already?  I don't see you offering any solutions either.  So what is YOUR big solution?
 

OH....and rape still exists too. And I'm "morally" outraged at THAT too. Like WTF? Now for all  of YOUR words....have you done anything to help the situation yourself?  We've all at least been trying to explain to a few people WHY it's wrong. That is how this train of conversation got started. Several people wanted to argue whether it was even "wrong," so a few of us obliged them.  What have YOU done to contribute to this thread?

 

The closest thing they've come up with as a solution for rape is a female "condom" that has sharp barbs on the inside part of it. You can't tell someone is wearing one, so when you're STUPID enough to put your dick into someone that isn't willingly allowing it....when you try to pull it out....it will shred your Mr. Winky.

 

I think this is a good idea. Perhaps we can come up with some similar plan for gold farmers? I like them ALMOST that much. This is a good example of how STUPID people need PAIN, or at least the fear of pain, to LEARN what is acceptable and what is not. Pitiful that some people are so ignorant that they require such drastic measures.

 

And in case you hadn't guessed it....this is all really just a tongue in cheek comment, because....there's not a damn THING "wrong" with any of the people who are irritated about the gold farming and find it to show a lack of integrity that people DO it. I think that's a pretty normal response for DECENT people who understand there are REASONS for "rules". What's "wrong" is the people who don't. There must be a few generations that were raised with no rules, no enforcement of rules, and no discipline for breaking rules. That would go a long way toward explaining a lot of other problems in society today too, let alone gold farming, botting, CHEATING, etc.

 

Tell them they are "cheating"? 
Might have been done already I think?
Gold farming still exists.


Tell them they are "not obligated to play"? 
I'm pretty sure they know that.  But they are making money.
Gold farming still exists.


Ban the account.?
Not only does this allow them to get their money back it also results in charges for the MMO company.
The Goldfarmer meanwhile creates a new account through an IP anonymiser and is straight back in the game.
Seriously... if the solution was that easy gold farming would have ceased to exist.
Gold farming still exists.

 

So, for all your words, your moral outrage, your definitions and your fairy dust coated dreams on how the world should be...
GOLD FARMING STILL EXISTS.

 

You do realize that MOST changes START with "moral outrage," right?  You should consider that.  If people aren't outraged, it's very easy to just be apathetic. A quick review of world history will show you this.  Generally people don't take action against things wrongly perpetrated on them UNTIL they become outraged.

 

Only Justarius1 has offered any solution.  Personally, I don't think it would work because again it relies on a moral judgement from the players.  However, his solution also offers a solution based on social interaction - which is an interesting approach.
If nothing else I would like to see his method trial just as a social experiment.
 

 

Edit:  Look at it like this.  YOU have to walk into the NC Soft CEOs office tomorrow and offer a solution.  What do you have to offer?

 

IP bans to anyone that can be proven to be a gold BUYER or seller, PERIOD. And I don't CARE that you don't "like" that idea. By the way....I think I already mentioned that in a previous post. As far as "IP Anonymizers" go....I would imagine that there's technology to determine if someone is using that way to skate around things. If not....I'm sure there soon will be.

Incidentally....I'm not sure why you think a bunch of GAMERS can come up with something that will WORK, when OBVIOUSLY the MMO devs haven't been able to do so.

Therefore, some of us would rather focus on helping OTHER PEOPLE to become "outraged," as you put it, so that maybe.....just maybe.....a few more people will see WHY it's wrong to bot, buy, and sell gold. If we can decrease the DEMAND, then the suppliers will eventually go away.

 

Walking in and saying "Cheating in wrong and against the rules!" is not going to keep you employed is it?

 

Actually....understanding that cheating and stealing are wrong has kept me employed all my life.  Employers expect you to have a pretty good grasp of that, but I can see....that a lot of people certainly don't.

 


 

 

 

President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club

  Gyrus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/20/07
Posts: 2323

11/24/09 11:35:13 AM#128
Originally posted by girlgeek
Originally posted by Gyrus
Originally posted by girlgeek
Originally posted by bamdorf

 

....

Whether those rules are "arguable" or not is not the point here.   If you don't like the rules...you are not obligated to play.

...

 

 

Thank you for saying everything I was thinking, and MUCH more eloquently.

What is wrong with you people?

Seriously?

FACT: GOLD FARMING EXISTS.

Can any of you deny it?  barndorf? girlgeek? Ozmodan?

Now for all your WORDS do you have any solution on how to stop it? Did the OP ask us for solutions? If anyone had any that would WORK....don't you think the major companies would have tried them already?  I don't see you offering any solutions either.  So what is YOUR big solution?
 

Then you need to read back.  You didn't see it because you were / are blinded by rage I think?

My solution (or part of my solution anyway) is NOT to ban their accounts - but rather to restrict them.
1/ Disable their player to player trades.
2/ Disable their chat - restrict it to Guild only chat.

That way, if they call their CC Company and say "I want a charge back - that evil MMO company has stopped me playing!"
The MMO Company can honestly say "No.  We haven't.  That account is still perfectly playable."
And for the gold farmer that is the worst thing that can happen - because they have done the 'work' but now cannot share the spoils.
They can still trade with NPCs - but the beauty of that is the MMO company can set up the NPCs to buy at fair (but low) prices and yet not sell back everything they buy (it becomes a sink).

Guild only chat allows the player to group and play (not much help for goldfarmers) but gold spam can be delt with by guild leaders (kicking the gold spammer).

The net result is the goldfarmers not only effectively 'lose' the account - but they still have to pay for it (assuming a valid card was used - which at least some of the time will be the case)

So, this all eats into their expenses and lowers their profits.  And without profit - why bother?


The other great advantage of this is that if a company chooses to do a mass 'ban' (like NC soft did today) then any innocents caught are not inconvienced too much.  They can still log in and play while customer service issues are delt with ( to fully reinstate their account )

.....


  As for the rest of your rant...

Well, let's just say it's clear you have rage issues and other issues too deep for anyone here to help you with.

 

 

 

Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  Justarius1

Novice Member

Joined: 9/23/09
Posts: 385

There are two secrets to success in life. (1) - Never reveal everything you know.

11/24/09 3:54:36 PM#129
Originally posted by LumTheMad

Well, this has certainly been an active discussion, and very little of what I could add has not already been addressed. So a few minor points:

Re: chargebacks: they do happen. They are a huge problem (they make customer support even more of a cost than it already is) and yes, they should be handled better. And yes, CC providers have expressed displeasure with MMO companies over their relative frequency compared to other services.

Re: just making an economy public: very few people would be OK with this, I suspect. There's some privacy implications there. It's also sort of a burning down the village to find the crook sort of solution... it may work but the collateral damage would be pretty painful.

Re: RMT as a vice where the demand drives the suppy - this is a point I make frequently, and the demand must be addressed (whether through enforcement, or changing the design that drives that market) much like any other vice that is suppressed.

And finally, as is probably obvious given my new job, I absolutely can't comment about anything specific re: NCsoft, Aion or any huge ban wave that may or may not have taken place this morning. :)

 

 

Why exactly would people have a problem with a public economy if they have nothing to hide?  I know I wouldn't.  Heck, I'll tell you what my Aion and Fallen Earth characters have RIGHT NOW. ;)

I don't think many people would have a problem with that kind of system at all.  What exactly are the "privacy concerns" being violated here?  You agree to play the game, you agree to make your funds and fund-transfers public.

I know a LOT of people that would sign up for a system like this in a heartbeat - especially PvP players with nothing to hide, like myself.  Anything I have on any of my characters you can rest assured I quested, looted, or crafted myself.  If I want to help out a guild (or vice versa) - fine, make those transactions public too.  I don't think anyone has ever complained that Guild XYZ gave member ZYX 500 gold or 50 crafting widgets or whatever.  It's part of being in a guild and it doesn't violate the TOS as gold-buying offline does.

I see a public setting like that as a Utopian mmo, almost, in terms of economy.  Maybe some game designer like NCSoft will get tired of the commonly used approaches to dealing with gold farmers and bots and they will try this someday.

I really don't know a single person who would stop playing, say, World of Warcraft if the economy were to go public tomorrow - except, perhaps, for the biggest offline buyers to begin with.

Which is kind of the point - we WANT them to go.

  Justarius1

Novice Member

Joined: 9/23/09
Posts: 385

There are two secrets to success in life. (1) - Never reveal everything you know.

11/24/09 4:00:30 PM#130
Originally posted by Gyrus
Originally posted by LumTheMad

Well, this has certainly been an active discussion, and very little of what I could add has not already been addressed. So a few minor points:

Re: chargebacks: they do happen. They are a huge problem (they make customer support even more of a cost than it already is) and yes, they should be handled better. And yes, CC providers have expressed displeasure with MMO companies over their relative frequency compared to other services.

So don't do it!  Find a better way.  Isn't that your new job?

Re: just making an economy public: very few people would be OK with this, I suspect. There's some privacy implications there. It's also sort of a burning down the village to find the crook sort of solution... it may work but the collateral damage would be pretty painful.

What? you mean like banning 16,000 accounts? including (no doubt) players who had nothing to do with gold trading.  Players who will no doubt tell their friends what a bunch of ***** NC Soft is.  Some of whom were your friends and who are now your enemies?  Ever heard of a 'hearts and minds' campaign?  It works in reverse too.  And some of the worst most vindictive enemies you can have are former friends.

Re: RMT as a vice where the demand drives the suppy - this is a point I make frequently, and the demand must be addressed (whether through enforcement, or changing the design that drives that market) much like any other vice that is suppressed.

A change in design I can agree on.

And finally, as is probably obvious given my new job, I absolutely can't comment about anything specific re: NCsoft, Aion or any huge ban wave that may or may not have taken place this morning. :)

 http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/260315/page/1

By now, I wonder how many of those account holders have contacted their CC provider and asked for a chargeback?
Have the phones started ringing in accounts department yet?
How much money will this cost NC Soft?

Was it worth it?  Are all the goldfarmers in Aion out of business?
Well, a google of "gold aion" says no.

I am disappointed that the best NC Soft can come up with is still more of the same (tried before and failed) 'banzor them!'.

 

 

 

 

I know, man.  Just today the police picked up a murderer in my city.  I think this is ridiculous, I mean, just because they apprehended a murderer doesn't mean people won't still murder people.  There are still THOUSANDS of murders happening EVERY day - just google "recent murder cases in the US" to see what I mean!  Guess the whole "lock up the criminal" thing isn't working very well for us, since we still have criminals.

Since arresting murderers and putting them in prison isn't getting to the ROOT cause of murder in this country, I say we stop arresting murderers and try to change the social system that CREATES murderers in the first place.  

I'm so disappointed that the United States Government like so many other World Governments just locks up murderers and criminals and BANZORZ them to prison.  How much does this cost the government or us as taxpayers?

Anyone except me see where this line of thought leads?

Sure, it's all very Utopian and "progressive" of you but in the meantime until we have this perfect economy and perfect system where nobody has an incentive to cheat, a lot of players - myself included - are quite happy with the recent bans and removal of bots in Aion.  It's obvious to me because I logon now and I see that the game world is changing, and things are getting better.

 

  just1opinion

Smart-Alek

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 4933

11/24/09 5:20:51 PM#131
Originally posted by Justarius1
Originally posted by Gyrus
Originally posted by LumTheMad

Well, this has certainly been an active discussion, and very little of what I could add has not already been addressed. So a few minor points:

Re: chargebacks: they do happen. They are a huge problem (they make customer support even more of a cost than it already is) and yes, they should be handled better. And yes, CC providers have expressed displeasure with MMO companies over their relative frequency compared to other services.

So don't do it!  Find a better way.  Isn't that your new job?

Re: just making an economy public: very few people would be OK with this, I suspect. There's some privacy implications there. It's also sort of a burning down the village to find the crook sort of solution... it may work but the collateral damage would be pretty painful.

What? you mean like banning 16,000 accounts? including (no doubt) players who had nothing to do with gold trading.  Players who will no doubt tell their friends what a bunch of ***** NC Soft is.  Some of whom were your friends and who are now your enemies?  Ever heard of a 'hearts and minds' campaign?  It works in reverse too.  And some of the worst most vindictive enemies you can have are former friends.

Re: RMT as a vice where the demand drives the suppy - this is a point I make frequently, and the demand must be addressed (whether through enforcement, or changing the design that drives that market) much like any other vice that is suppressed.

A change in design I can agree on.

And finally, as is probably obvious given my new job, I absolutely can't comment about anything specific re: NCsoft, Aion or any huge ban wave that may or may not have taken place this morning. :)

 http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/260315/page/1

By now, I wonder how many of those account holders have contacted their CC provider and asked for a chargeback?
Have the phones started ringing in accounts department yet?
How much money will this cost NC Soft?

Was it worth it?  Are all the goldfarmers in Aion out of business?
Well, a google of "gold aion" says no.

I am disappointed that the best NC Soft can come up with is still more of the same (tried before and failed) 'banzor them!'.

 

 

 

 

I know, man.  Just today the police picked up a murderer in my city.  I think this is ridiculous, I mean, just because they apprehended a murderer doesn't mean people won't still murder people.  There are still THOUSANDS of murders happening EVERY day - just google "recent murder cases in the US" to see what I mean!  Guess the whole "lock up the criminal" thing isn't working very well for us, since we still have criminals.

Since arresting murderers and putting them in prison isn't getting to the ROOT cause of murder in this country, I say we stop arresting murderers and try to change the social system that CREATES murderers in the first place.  

I'm so disappointed that the United States Government like so many other World Governments just locks up murderers and criminals and BANZORZ them to prison.  How much does this cost the government or us as taxpayers?

Anyone except me see where this line of thought leads?

Sure, it's all very Utopian and "progressive" of you but in the meantime until we have this perfect economy and perfect system where nobody has an incentive to cheat, a lot of players - myself included - are quite happy with the recent bans and removal of bots in Aion.  It's obvious to me because I logon now and I see that the game world is changing, and things are getting better.

 

 

Apparently, you and I are the only people that understand this.

You have to love the "why bother" attitude some people have. It's not working PERFECTLY....so let's not do it. Stupidity abounds.

Oh, and by the way, you'll likely now be told you have "issues," since you used an analogy about murder. (zomg)

There are more idiots on these forums than there are in any other community. It never ceases to amaze me the amount of self-righteous CRAP I have to read on here.  And the egos....amazing.  Some how some of these gamers think they can solve the problems of the "world" (the world of gaming) ...even though the PROFESSIONALS have been trying for years and years.  But of course....some "genius" on these forums SURELY knows more than all of "those guys."  /rolls eyes

YOU have some good ideas, by the way. Some of the other posters do as well. What I want to know....is how talking about it on the forums here is going to accomplish much of anything. You  presented good ideas with a fair amount of humility. Have you posted ideas like this on the suggestion forums of the game or games you play? Perhaps you should. :)

 

President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club

  Justarius1

Novice Member

Joined: 9/23/09
Posts: 385

There are two secrets to success in life. (1) - Never reveal everything you know.

11/24/09 5:57:40 PM#132

Thanks.  I appreciate the feedback.

I haven't suggested this on Aion or FE forums yet; that's a decent idea.  I figured starting to talk about it here, on a site devoted to MMORPGs, on a thread started about this very issue, might be a good way to get some feedback from others about the idea.  

I never will get the mentality that since we can't catch all wrongdoers, we shouldn't bother with enforcement at all.  We have drug enforcement, and yet we still have plenty of crack heads.  We have law enforcement of all types, and yet crime still abounds.  We punish rape, murder, battery and assault, and a WIDE range of crimes that probably have their root causes in social ills, yes, but since we don't live in a perfect world we kind of have to do what we can to contain the damage caused by crime WHILE we work on making a better world for everyone.

I think the comparison applies equally to MMORPGs.

As for arrogant people thinking they have the answers to world problems, all I can say is - look into a job as a US politician instead of hanging around these forums all day.  The gov't has some serious issues here right now and since ya'll have the answers, I wanted to let you know there is an election coming up.  Start your nomination petitions now!  ;)

  Justarius1

Novice Member

Joined: 9/23/09
Posts: 385

There are two secrets to success in life. (1) - Never reveal everything you know.

11/24/09 6:12:45 PM#133

Well, I actually took your suggestion.  Have the idea up on Fallen Earth's paid/red forum Suggestion area and on Aion's public suggestion forum.  We'll see where it goes.

The problem I usually run into are people that can't wrap their brain around anything different, they basically fall into the "ban them all" camp and the "gold farming isn't an issue" camp  - with very little ability to look beyond what is currently being done.

As one of my favorite authors says, when they give you lined paper, write sideways. ;)  (Think outside the box!)

  Gyrus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/20/07
Posts: 2323

11/25/09 1:01:53 AM#134
Originally posted by girlgeek
Originally posted by Justarius1
Originally posted by Gyrus
...

I am disappointed that the best NC Soft can come up with is still more of the same (tried before and failed) 'banzor them!'.

 

 

I know, man.  Just today the police picked up a murderer in my city.  I think this is ridiculous, I mean, just because they apprehended a murderer doesn't mean people won't still murder people.  There are still THOUSANDS of murders happening EVERY day - just google "recent murder cases in the US" to see what I mean!  Guess the whole "lock up the criminal" thing isn't working very well for us, since we still have criminals.

...

 

 

Apparently, you and I are the only people that understand this.

You have to love the "why bother" attitude some people have. It's not working PERFECTLY....so let's not do it. Stupidity abounds.

Oh, and by the way, you'll likely now be told you have "issues," since you used an analogy about murder. (zomg)

There are more idiots on these forums than there are in any other community. ... 

 

You both know I am not suggesting "do nothing" (well maybe you don't since there seem to be comprehension issues here)

Justarius1 your murder analogy is flawed (if you don't see that then let me know because further discussion is pointless).

I will try to fit in with your thinking however:
Banning a gold farmer (the way NC Soft just did) is sort of equivalent to arresting a murderer, then releasing them on bail and giving them their gun back as they leave the remand centre...and maybe telling them where the witnesses can be found... and then wondering why they shoot someone else?

My suggestion, if you actually read it, is to try something different.

To try to fit in with your analogy (once again) it would be equivalent to setting higher bail and restricting movement for those out on bail.

 

But, lets forget dumb analogies:

Banning gold farmers is a tried (and failed) strategy.

There are MMOs out there that invested vast amounts of time and resources on this approach.
They failed.

In some cases they no longer have gold farmers in those games... because they have no players either.

As I say, the gold farmers left when their business was no longer profitable.

 

Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  Gyrus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/20/07
Posts: 2323

11/25/09 1:15:07 AM#135
Originally posted by Justarius1
...

As for arrogant people thinking they have the answers to world problems, all I can say is - look into a job as a US politician instead of hanging around these forums all day.  ...

I must admit the above quote made me laugh.

Made by the same person who said this
"And if the information WAS made public and the community decided it was cheating and wrong (like most developers do now) - then making everything public would make the cheaters THAT much easier to identify and eliminate.

I still don't see how people don't get this no brainer. Make everything public. Problem solved..."

I believe that's called irony?

 

Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  Justarius1

Novice Member

Joined: 9/23/09
Posts: 385

There are two secrets to success in life. (1) - Never reveal everything you know.

11/25/09 3:26:07 AM#136
Originally posted by Gyrus
Originally posted by Justarius1
...

As for arrogant people thinking they have the answers to world problems, all I can say is - look into a job as a US politician instead of hanging around these forums all day.  ...

I must admit the above quote made me laugh.

Made by the same person who said this
"And if the information WAS made public and the community decided it was cheating and wrong (like most developers do now) - then making everything public would make the cheaters THAT much easier to identify and eliminate.

I still don't see how people don't get this no brainer. Make everything public. Problem solved..."

I believe that's called irony?

 

 

Oh, no.  That's not solving a large world problem.  That's solving a very small-scale MMO problem. ;)

  Justarius1

Novice Member

Joined: 9/23/09
Posts: 385

There are two secrets to success in life. (1) - Never reveal everything you know.

11/25/09 3:37:11 AM#137
Originally posted by Gyrus
Originally posted by girlgeek
Originally posted by Justarius1
Originally posted by Gyrus
...

I am disappointed that the best NC Soft can come up with is still more of the same (tried before and failed) 'banzor them!'.

 

 

I know, man.  Just today the police picked up a murderer in my city.  I think this is ridiculous, I mean, just because they apprehended a murderer doesn't mean people won't still murder people.  There are still THOUSANDS of murders happening EVERY day - just google "recent murder cases in the US" to see what I mean!  Guess the whole "lock up the criminal" thing isn't working very well for us, since we still have criminals.

...

 

 

Apparently, you and I are the only people that understand this.

You have to love the "why bother" attitude some people have. It's not working PERFECTLY....so let's not do it. Stupidity abounds.

Oh, and by the way, you'll likely now be told you have "issues," since you used an analogy about murder. (zomg)

There are more idiots on these forums than there are in any other community. ... 

 

You both know I am not suggesting "do nothing" (well maybe you don't since there seem to be comprehension issues here)

Justarius1 your murder analogy is flawed (if you don't see that then let me know because further discussion is pointless).

I will try to fit in with your thinking however:
Banning a gold farmer (the way NC Soft just did) is sort of equivalent to arresting a murderer, then releasing them on bail and giving them their gun back as they leave the remand centre...and maybe telling them where the witnesses can be found... and then wondering why they shoot someone else?

My suggestion, if you actually read it, is to try something different.

To try to fit in with your analogy (once again) it would be equivalent to setting higher bail and restricting movement for those out on bail.

 

But, lets forget dumb analogies:

Banning gold farmers is a tried (and failed) strategy.

There are MMOs out there that invested vast amounts of time and resources on this approach.
They failed.

In some cases they no longer have gold farmers in those games... because they have no players either.

As I say, the gold farmers left when their business was no longer profitable.

 

 

Your suggestion seems to be to simply regulate the RMT, or somehow magically make it "not necessary" - if I didn't catch that right, enlighten me.

I'm not here to trade insults with you, I think I made my points quite clear.  WoW bans gold farmers (there is a type of enforcement there) and they seem to be doing just fine, somehow.  They manage to keep players and a TOS policy banning gold sales.  So your whole logical line of thought that any game companies who ban gold farmers and buyers have no players left is... well, more flawed that I can get into here.  I know a lot of people going back to Aion, for example, now that they have the perception that NCSoft has *done* something.

I notice that you didn't seem to attack my idea of a public economy at all, so I take it you support that?  

I've been accused of many things in my life, but reading comprehension issues aren't one of them.  Several people on the threads I have started on the FE boards had some great feedback, positive and negative, about my idea.  Your conclusion that MMO companies who ban gold farmers fail is simply false.  Yes, they ban them - and yes, they come back.  And sometimes when we release people from prison, they go back out and continue to commit crime.

And yet we keep doing it.  Why?  A detriment effect; people are frightened (mainly the gold BUYERS) of getting caught and they don't want their account banned, so they stop doing it.  If you don't understand THIS, there's really no point in continuing the conversation.  You seem to have a rather black and white view on things.  You see a method as flawed, and damn the other professionals who disagree with you.

Apparently these game developers and designers must know nothing about running a game, since nearly every successful MMO I know of has it in the TOS that you aren't to engage in buying gold or items, etc., from offline sites.  They don't WANT an RMT economy widget in their games - they WANT to charge a flat fee, period, and let the in-game economy exist from there.  Without influence from the out-of-game economy.  And if you can't see that, or the reasons for that, there is little point in continuing the discussion on that point.

That having been said, if you have ideas as to why my public economy idea wouldn't work - I'm all ears.  I'm actually interested.  Somebody brought up a valid point to me about it and it made me think even further down that pipeline.

  Gyrus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/20/07
Posts: 2323

11/25/09 6:33:59 AM#138
Originally posted by Justarius1

. Many of the things you open this post with I have already addressed in this thread.

Your suggestion seems to be to simply regulate the RMT, or somehow magically make it "not necessary" - if I didn't catch that right, enlighten me.

Covered in posts #35 and #128.
If you want to call it "RMT" then fine (there's a whole new threads worth of argument right there).
I call it making the environment so unprofitable (read hostile) for Gold farmers that they simply leave.
Covered in posts #109, # 107, #105...

Using a whole game approach though - this is not a stand alone idea.
 

I'm not here to trade insults with you, I think I made my points quite clear.  WoW bans gold farmers (there is a type of enforcement there) and they seem to be doing just fine, somehow.

Maybe the fact that Blizzard has a vast amount of resources to throw at the problem?
And as for doing just fine?
Try Googling "WoW Gold" or doing a quick search on the WoW forums tells me they still have gold spammers in game.  Lots of.

 They manage to keep players and a TOS policy banning gold sales.  So your whole logical line of thought that any game companies who ban gold farmers and buyers have no players left is... well, more flawed that I can get into here.

Again... ...  "some" ...

 I know a lot of people going back to Aion, for example, now that they have the perception that NCSoft has *done* something.

Fair point - how about we discuss this again in a month?
In fact - we may not even have to wait that long:
http://www.aionsource.com/forum/aion-discussion/91310-bot-ban-lie.html

I notice that you didn't seem to attack my idea of a public economy at all, so I take it you support that?  

Covered in post #109

I've been accused of many things in my life, but reading comprehension issues aren't one of them.  Several people on the threads I have started on the FE boards had some great feedback, positive and negative, about my idea.  Your conclusion that MMO companies who ban gold farmers fail is simply false.  Yes, they ban them - and yes, they come back.  

They ban them...they come back.  What is your benchmark for success then?

And sometimes when we release people from prison, they go back out and continue to commit crime.

Stop with the bad prison analogies already.

And yet we keep doing it.  Why?  A detriment effect; people are frightened (mainly the gold BUYERS) of getting caught and they don't want their account banned, so they stop doing it.  If you don't understand THIS, there's really no point in continuing the conversation.  

Who are the gold BUYERS?  Well, they would be your paying customers  (the ones who apparently don't use stolen credit cards?).  If they are buying gold... why?
Banning them robs you of a customer (he will move on to another game) - the gold farmer who gets banned will be back again until you have too few customers for him to service and make a profit.

You seem to have a rather black and white view on things.  You see a method as flawed, and damn the other professionals who disagree with you.

You are hardly a 'professional'.  The Author is the only professional in this thread and he disagreed with your idea too.  Should I quote your reply?

Apparently these game developers and designers must know nothing about running a game, since nearly every successful MMO I know of has it in the TOS that you aren't to engage in buying gold or items, etc., from offline sites.  They don't WANT an RMT economy widget in their games - they WANT to charge a flat fee, period, and let the in-game economy exist from there.  Without influence from the out-of-game economy.  And if you can't see that, or the reasons for that, there is little point in continuing the discussion on that point.

Ah yeah, the TOS.  That will stop gold farming.  Like I say - Google "WoW Gold".

That having been said, if you have ideas as to why my public economy idea wouldn't work - I'm all ears.  I'm actually interested.  Somebody brought up a valid point to me about it and it made me think even further down that pipeline.

Again - covered in post # 109.
I think you overestimate the gamers - also how well your idea would work depends heavily on game design.
There is also a high chance of false positives (like legitimate exchanges between friends and guildmates)
Then there is the issue of 'what difference does it make?'


For example - supposing I play Spellborn and we enact your idea there.
Any player that receives more than 10 gold by person to person trade turns bright blue.

Done.

I see a bright blue player - what do I do about it?
If it's the PvE server (and many areas of the PvP server) I can do nothing.
And in the PvP server - why would I take them on?  They probably have better gear than me?
Don't let them into my guild?
My bet is that they form their own "Blue Moon" guild.

But you know what?  Gold Sellers would just offer an extra service.  If the limit was 10 gold per transaction they would just do multiple transactions of 9 gold.  If it was 10 gold per day they would just do transactions over several days.
This is how money is laundered in real life too - so it's not even like they have to figure it out.

Still - I would be interested to see a trial.  Social Engineering is interesting and can yield totally unexpected results.

 

{Post self edited so as not to start an insult war}

 

 

Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  Justarius1

Novice Member

Joined: 9/23/09
Posts: 385

There are two secrets to success in life. (1) - Never reveal everything you know.

11/25/09 2:05:11 PM#139

Well, your main point still seems to be that right now the banning "isn't working" because you can still buy gold in WoW and other games.  I agree, but how much more widespread would the problem be if, say, Blizzard had no regulation, no banning?  If it were simply against the ToS but it was never enforced?

I, for one, have a feeling the problem would be a lot worse.  And you state that Blizzard has "vast resources" to throw at the problem; which means that for them, at least, they seem to have done what we in the states have done with drug use - forced it underground.  Yes, there are still drugs.  Yes, there are still drug users.  However, if you get caught buying or selling, you may go to prison.

I won't debate the morality of the War on Drugs with you, my point is simply that if tomorrow the gov't came out and said, "OK, drugs are still illegal, but we're not going to punish drug use anymore."

Do you have any doubt in your mind that drug use wouldn't skyrocket?  All those people who were afraid to experiment because they might get caught (read: banned) now can try it out!  With no fear of punishment!

It's not a bad analogy; it's a perfect analogy.  The point of banning players from a game isn't to stop gold farming entirely; it's to drive it underground and make it difficult to engage in.  It's to put the threat out there that if you get caught; you might get banned.

Your last comment interested me most, however, since it was the only comment really directed at anything I said of substance...

The author of this article never personally spoke to me about that idea, so I'm not sure what you mean when you say that Jennings told me my idea wouldn't work - but that aside, your last comment about social engineering experiments... that's exactly what this would be.  A social engineering experiment.  And it's something that I think could be properly and intelligently implemented.  I'd love to see it tried.  That was my point.  I don't think I'm giving players too much credit.  I have a feeling that the 80% of people not buying gold or who have never bought gold would keep the other 20% in line.

  Justarius1

Novice Member

Joined: 9/23/09
Posts: 385

There are two secrets to success in life. (1) - Never reveal everything you know.

11/25/09 5:31:42 PM#140

Plus, let's say that transactions were public.  People might wonder why you had 50 mails of 9 gold each from an account named 'isjkffh' - how this might work is thus:

Other players or your guild notice the illegal transactions.  They ask you how you got the cash.  If you have a reasonable reason for it, fine.  In most cases though this might alert the community, sending out a red flag to get a GM to investigate.

GM investigates the account and finds it's from a bad credit card, etc.  Gold is simply REMOVED from the player's account before a ban - let the player know hey, we found this out, this is our economy and per the TOS we're removing that gold you bought.  2nd offense, we may ban you.

The system would have to be very, very transparent for it to work.  However, even some corporations are increasingly acting like this, with more transparency.  I won't get into my "professional" credentials - they have nothing to do with MMOs, but they do have a lot to do with both economics and the psychology of economic-driven behaviors.

The "social engineering" experiment would only work with total transparency and little if no ways to "cheat the system"  ...

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