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News & Features Discussion  » General: Jennings: Real Money, Real Problems

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161 posts found
  maxtlion

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/03/09
Posts: 79

You don't stop playing because you get old - you get old because you stop playing.

11/22/09 3:13:44 PM#101

I don't expect the problem to go away ever. Whenever a developer implements a new way to stop gold-selling, someone will invent a work-around, or loophole and exploit that.

You could have a dedicated GM for every instanced area in your game, but what game developer has the money to employ that many staff 24-hours a day? (Hint: maybe not even Blizzard.)

The only way that people will stop selling gold and other resources like power-levelling, items etc is if players stop buying them. That won't happen as it is human nature to look for an advantage over other players and a proportion of those looking to do so will do so unfairly, or outside of the intended methods.

  Gikku

Old School

Joined: 8/01/03
Posts: 212

"I can't do it" never yet accomplished anything: "I will try" has accomplished wonders.

11/22/09 3:58:44 PM#102
Originally posted by dterry

I'll probably get flamed for this but....

 

1.) No trading between characters/accounts at all. You sell or give your item (acquired by crafting or looting) to an NPC or an NPC auction house and they resell it to another player at a fixed rate(or variable based on in game availablity of the item at the time of sale) - and then send you back the money.

2.) Force antivirus on the client - same as business VPN solutions - if your not running AV or it is not up to date,  then you fail the logon.

3.) Run your own scan after the AV check - looking for keyloggers or IP/MAC spoofing software on the client. - Do this in the open - not hiding it from the client.

4.) Ban people caught in RMT based on IP/MAC/credit card information.

5.) Enforce password complexity.

 

For starters...

Back when Blizz Con was going on many accounts got hacked. The guild I was in the GL and one of the officers got hacked as well as the GL's gf's acct. .  Bliz was swamped with tickets, emails and phone calls during that time. Most of the stuff for the guild bank and the other toons was restored but they did not ban the gf's acct. instead they monitored it. Getting info that was needed to get to the one that had hacked the accounts. I know the stuff from the guild was taken by diff toons on each of these accounts and then disbursed of.  They finally restored the gf's toon returning it to her. But as someone has said yea sometimes they do that. 

No one could stop the hacker by changing access to the guild bank as the GL was the only one that could change that and that account was hacked. Only the GL and his toons were allowed total access to all the tabs and the officer that was hacked was allowed access to all but one tab, so not much could be done. Even though there were many reports about others that were hacked Bliz said they could do nothing until the owner of the account reported it. I find this rather stupid because we knew some of the peeps were gone on vacation or to Blizz Con and were not accessing their accounts. When sent a tell the tells were ignored never responding to them. I mean if they had banned the accounts then when the owner got back they could have taken care of things but no they did nothing until  the owner contacted them.  This has over the years happened many times. I just don't understand why when they get many tickets or calls saying someones account is being hacked they can't at the very least  ban it until the owner of the account calls. No they were not monitoring the accounts either since the owner was not available to complain. So by the time the owner returned the dmg was done and the hacker was long gone.

Trust me hackers aren't scared off either as many of us sent tells saying we knew they were hacking the account and had been reported. Why should they be? I mean they know nothing is going to happen until the owner reports it. Does make you wonder though if they maybe knew the owner through playing the game or maybe even msgs posted on a board. I mean when peeps are going to something like Blizz  Con they tend to chat/brag freely about it. I don't know but I know that was a really bad weekend with hackers.

I don't know if there is any solid way to stop the farmers. I mean they seem to have more ways to get around things. WoW has put in the thing being able to report them but I really don't know if that is even followed through with or is just something so we can say we are reporting them. When it is a level one and by the time you report and do a /who they have logged.  Now there was one not long ago that was on a high lvl char spamming for a good hour but there again like has been mentioned it was prob a hacked account and they didn't care or someone that was really brainless doing it maybe for some gold. Who knows?

I am sure there are things that could be done that would really put a hurting on those farmers, but I am also sure they would find a way around it in time. Maybe the best solution is to just not indulge in their services or buy their gold or items. I have noticed it seems they are spamming items in trade chat now and when you send a tell to find out how much for an item(thinking it is someone besides a farmer selling) you get a reply back sending you to a website to buy gold and items. hmm is there no end to what they will do? When this happens I do a report and gone on my way. I don't want to support them but makes me wonder if I may have purchased something through trade or the AH that was one of the evil ones. Yes to me they are evil.

 

Gikku

  Justarius1

Novice Member

Joined: 9/23/09
Posts: 385

There are two secrets to success in life. (1) - Never reveal everything you know.

11/22/09 4:26:41 PM#103

 It's simple supply and demand economics for an "illegal" or black market item; except the "law" in this case is enforced by the game developers, not state or federal government law officials.

Basically, look at marijuana in the United States.  It's blatantly obvious that millions of people use marijuana, including many adults with otherwise productive lives who would never in a million years admit to their boss or colleges at work that they use marijuana.  

One can argue that marijuana is safe or that it's the devil itself; that's not the point I'm making here.  The point is, many people use marijuana in this country even though it is, technically, illegal and you can go to jail or be heavily fined for its use.  Enforcement go after the users (think gold buyers, the dude in your guild who just bought 5000 gold online and then got banned) and also the drug cartels and growers themselves; which in our country's case are largely served by very poor people terrorized by drug cartel activity in Mexico.

The average Mexican citizen doesn't benefit from American marijuana use at all, and this is because it is illegal in the US and there are some pretty nasty tactics used by criminals (think kidnapping, murder, rape, intimidation, etc.) who will stop at nothing to gain a profit.  The man buying weed isn't thinking about what effect his choice is having on the poor Mexican family south of the border who has to deal with drug cartel related violence; he just knows that he wants something and he knows how to get it.

Again, I'm not judging morality here.  I'm just saying that many times I run into people who don't see that any time you make an object illegal or "black market" it will create another market, a sub-market serviced by, essentially, criminals who do NOT care about the law.  These criminals are part of the problem, yes, but they couldn't exist without customers.  If every marijuana-smoker in the US today stopped purchasing marijuana grown in Mexico (which could be easily accomplished by, say, legalization here - just as how when Prohibition ended alcohol stopped being sold and made by gangs, instead it was sold legally and taxed by the State... or it could be accomplished by millions of Americans just giving up the habit but you tell me which one is more likely... ;) ) - anyway, if there was no market for black-market Mexican drugs by affluent Americans, the Mexican drug cartels would dry up and die out without any means of economic support.

I'm not arguing for drug legalization or for allowing gold farming in my games; I personally detest the practice of gold farming and I have never purchased currency in a game since I have been playing for... well, since UO came out way back when. 

What I am saying is that game developers are limited just as American law enforcement is limited.  There may be a "war on drugs" or a "war on gold farmers" but as long as people want to buy drugs (or gold) it's going to be an arms-race between law enforcement/games development companies and the "criminals" (I use the word to describe people willing to flout the law to make a living, not as a moral judgment) will continue to supply people with access to black market items.  The amount of many, many gold sellers in games like Aion can indicate a lack of proper enforcement on the game developers part and it can also indicate a huge demand for gold.  

Also - one other small point.  Is there honestly anyone out there who doesn't know how to (or who couldn't google it immediately) get gold/currency for basically ANY MMO on the market right now and have that in-game currency  sent to them for real-world cash?  I don't buy gold but it's pretty easy to figure out where to "score" some from, no matter what game you play. 

I have only ever seen one real solution to the in-game gold problem - public accounts of currency.  Totally take away a player's privacy concerning his in-game items and gold.  Say I logon with a level 10 whatever in game X and the average amount of currency for me at level 10 is 100 gold.  Well, my guildmaster notices one day I logon and my gold went from 100 gold to 5000 gold overnight.  He might start asking questions at this point; so might by guildmates.

In essense, go after the "users" as hard as we're going after the "farmers" and we'll see a real solution.  Enforcement of community by community is historically the only real effective way for social enforcement of morality.

 

  just1opinion

Smart-Alek

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 4933

11/22/09 4:47:15 PM#104
Originally posted by Gyrus

Excuse me?

But since when is Goldfarming a crime?

In what countries and under what laws?

Edit:  Breaching a contract (EULA / ToS) is not actually a crime - it is a beach of contract.

 

Okay, fair enough. It's a "breach of contract" that they can SUE you for. Just as some companies HAVE sued individuals that made a botting program to run in their game. Same sort of thing. To me....breaching an agreement that YOU MADE, BY CHOICE, at the very LEAST calls your character into question, and at the most....is, as you call it, breach of contract.

Are they going to throw you in jail....no. Are they going to ban your IP?  They SHOULD. But...they will handle it however they choose, it's their financial interests they are defending.

I don't care if you disagree with me. You're welcome to do whatever you, with your own conscience (or lack thereof) want to do. But you cannot argue that this is not addressed in an agreement that gamers CHOOSE to "digitally sign" when they choose to play a game.

For me, personally, it would be criminal. My word means something to me. Is it literally a "crime?" I can't, in all honesty, answer if it meets the criteria for being "criminal" in the truest sense of the word...probably not. Nonetheless....it's well within the rights of the developers to protect their intellectual property and financial gain via imposing penalties for breaking that agreement. And....SOME developers will do so. You do whatever you want. If you want to defend cheats and liars....feel free. Personally, I don't think I will.

President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club

  Gyrus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/20/07
Posts: 2323

11/22/09 5:46:23 PM#105
Originally posted by girlgeek
Originally posted by Gyrus

Excuse me?

But since when is Goldfarming a crime?

In what countries and under what laws?

Edit:  Breaching a contract (EULA / ToS) is not actually a crime - it is a beach of contract.

 

Okay, fair enough. It's a "breach of contract" that they can SUE you for. Just as some companies HAVE sued individuals that made a botting program to run in their game. Same sort of thing. To me....breaching an agreement that YOU MADE, BY CHOICE, at the very LEAST calls your character into question, and at the most....is, as you call it, breach of contract.

Are they going to throw you in jail....no. Are they going to ban your IP?  They SHOULD. But...they will handle it however they choose, it's their financial interests they are defending.

I don't care if you disagree with me. You're welcome to do whatever you, with your own conscience (or lack thereof) want to do. But you cannot argue that this is not addressed in an agreement that gamers CHOOSE to "digitally sign" when they choose to play a game.

Couple of points on what you have said so far:
By the fact you start talking about "sue"ing I assume you are from the USA?
Well, I would love to the the games companies try this outside he US.  You do know (I hope) that the EULA is not absolute?  That in many countries it may not even be legal at all?  Even in the USA parts of it may not be valid from state to state?
In Commonweath Countries the EULA probably falls under a branch of Law called 'ticket case' which is a minefield.
In Australia the whole [I AGREE] button idea is also in doubt with at least one decision finding that clicking this did not equal and agreement a all.

For me, personally, it would be criminal. My word means something to me. Is it literally a "crime?" I can't, in all honesty, answer if it meets the criteria for being "criminal" in the truest sense of the word...probably not. Nonetheless....it's well within the rights of the developers to protect their intellectual property and financial gain via imposing penalties for breaking that agreement. And....SOME developers will do so. You do whatever you want. If you want to defend cheats and liars....feel free. Personally, I don't think I will.

It's got nothing to do with defending cheats and liars (and again, how are goldfarmers 'cheats and liars'?  They are honest about what they do) but more to do with finding a sensible approach.
As I say, they are a business, hitting them in the profit margin will be more effective than anything.

 

Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  Ozmodan

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 6784

11/22/09 6:21:12 PM#106
Originally posted by Gyrus
Originally posted by girlgeek
Originally posted by Gyrus

Excuse me?

But since when is Goldfarming a crime?

In what countries and under what laws?

Edit:  Breaching a contract (EULA / ToS) is not actually a crime - it is a beach of contract.

 

Okay, fair enough. It's a "breach of contract" that they can SUE you for. Just as some companies HAVE sued individuals that made a botting program to run in their game. Same sort of thing. To me....breaching an agreement that YOU MADE, BY CHOICE, at the very LEAST calls your character into question, and at the most....is, as you call it, breach of contract.

Are they going to throw you in jail....no. Are they going to ban your IP?  They SHOULD. But...they will handle it however they choose, it's their financial interests they are defending.

I don't care if you disagree with me. You're welcome to do whatever you, with your own conscience (or lack thereof) want to do. But you cannot argue that this is not addressed in an agreement that gamers CHOOSE to "digitally sign" when they choose to play a game.

Couple of points on what you have said so far:
By the fact you start talking about "sue"ing I assume you are from the USA?
Well, I would love to the the games companies try this outside he US.  You do know (I hope) that the EULA is not absolute?  That in many countries it may not even be legal at all?  Even in the USA parts of it may not be valid from state to state?
In Commonweath Countries the EULA probably falls under a branch of Law called 'ticket case' which is a minefield.
In Australia the whole [I AGREE] button idea is also in doubt with at least one decision finding that clicking this did not equal and agreement a all.

For me, personally, it would be criminal. My word means something to me. Is it literally a "crime?" I can't, in all honesty, answer if it meets the criteria for being "criminal" in the truest sense of the word...probably not. Nonetheless....it's well within the rights of the developers to protect their intellectual property and financial gain via imposing penalties for breaking that agreement. And....SOME developers will do so. You do whatever you want. If you want to defend cheats and liars....feel free. Personally, I don't think I will.

It's got nothing to do with defending cheats and liars (and again, how are goldfarmers 'cheats and liars'?  They are honest about what they do) but more to do with finding a sensible approach.
As I say, they are a business, hitting them in the profit margin will be more effective than anything.

 Only a clueless poster condones cheating in any shape or form.  The only thing I get from your comments is that your mores are warped which unfortunately is quite common in the younger generation.  Maybe you should readdress them.

  Gyrus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/20/07
Posts: 2323

11/22/09 7:34:19 PM#107
Originally posted by Ozmodan

 Only a clueless poster condones cheating in any shape or form.  The only thing I get from your comments is that your mores are warped which unfortunately is quite common in the younger generation.  Maybe you should readdress them.

So, your argument comes down to "You're stupid and selfish and too young to comment."?

Well, speaking for myself - my first computer was a ZX81- I am hardly from the younger generation.

Other than that, how does calling people 'stupid' help to address the issue of gold farming?

How does calling gold farmers (and the people who use their services) 'cheaters' and / or 'liars' address the issue?

How does attacking a person based on their generation help?

 

The fact is none of it does.

And this is where you, and the MMO companies fail.  This is why you fail.  This is why gold farming continues.

Because rather than look at the actual problem, you get all emotive about it and basically chuck a tantrum based on your personal feelings on the issue.  If you think this approach works I encourage you to find a gold farmer in game or even find a gold farming site and email them your personal and moral view of the world and the way it should be.

And that solves exactly - nothing.

 

If you are serious about actually solving the 'problem' then dump all the emotional stuff and address the issue at hand.

Look at all the options open and consider which ones have been tried and which haven't.

Look at which ones have worked and which haven't.

 

To me, I see gold farming as a business - so to deal with it look at how to make that business less profitable.
But apparently, people (and MMO companies) would rather just continue on the tired old treadmill of 'banning' them.
I hasn't worked and it doesn't work - but hey - bashing your head against a wall is fun so why try a different approach?

 

Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  Justarius1

Novice Member

Joined: 9/23/09
Posts: 385

There are two secrets to success in life. (1) - Never reveal everything you know.

11/22/09 8:05:08 PM#108

Still no comments on the only thing that would actually make a difference in the gold farming problem - public accounts of what monetary and other valuables players have.  Put it all out there for everyone to see.  If you suddenly get 5000 gold mailed to you, it's tracked and available for anyone to find out - including your guild members, friends, etc.

The 20% would be knocked into shape by the 80% really, really fast if obvious cheaters and gold purchasers were so easy to find.  They could go be pariahs and play in their own little cheater guilds if they wanted, or they could decide to play nice and join the larger community.

See this link and read this page of the long, well thought article for another author's POV on this:

http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001493.php?page=15

Anything other than this solution is just simple black market vs. the cops economics, and we see how well that works in the real world.  If people who smoked crack suddenly turned blue and everyone could peg them as a crack smoker immediately, it's highly likely there would be many, many fewer people who would ever even try crack.

:)

  Gyrus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/20/07
Posts: 2323

11/22/09 8:56:23 PM#109
Originally posted by Justarius1

Still no comments on the only thing that would actually make a difference in the gold farming problem - public accounts of what monetary and other valuables players have.  Put it all out there for everyone to see.  If you suddenly get 5000 gold mailed to you, it's tracked and available for anyone to find out - including your guild members, friends, etc.

The 20% would be knocked into shape by the 80% really, really fast if obvious cheaters and gold purchasers were so easy to find.  They could go be pariahs and play in their own little cheater guilds if they wanted, or they could decide to play nice and join the larger community.

See this link and read this page of the long, well thought article for another author's POV on this:

http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001493.php?page=15

Anything other than this solution is just simple black market vs. the cops economics, and we see how well that works in the real world.  If people who smoked crack suddenly turned blue and everyone could peg them as a crack smoker immediately, it's highly likely there would be many, many fewer people who would ever even try crack.

:)

It could certainly be tried.  Personally i think that you would simply split the player base into "Gold Buyers" and "Non-Gold Buyers" (with associated guilds) with the Gold farming continuing as normal but trying harder to recruit from the non buying crowd?
In fact - if the Gold Buying Guilds were to do better then that might accelerate the gold farming activities?

I think the big problem you face is: Is gold buying cheating?  Is it Morally wrong?
Elikal addressed this in post # 95
As for the argument: if I pay a chinese to sell me gold, I am not paying the gold, because gold in a MMO is nothing. I pay his work time. Thats something different. Its as if I would call my sister, tell her to play my EQ character for 1 week and make some money and XP and then pay her 20 Euro. I pay her time, which is her's to give, not that of a game company. I still find it would be odd or silly. Either you have fun playing a MMO or not, but it's not morally evil. ... I worked for the money and I can spent it as ever I wish.

I agree with his stance.

Personally I see no point in paying for a game and then using cheat codes and power leveling and gold buying to finish it ASAP.
I play games for entertainment - but that is just me.
If other people want to use these services then that's their call and the only time it concerns me at all is when they interact with me.  With many MMOs being so 'solo friendly' and PvE then in those cases it shouldn't matter at all.

As for PvP?  There it may matter?  Depends on the game design.

But again, attempting to stop gold farming with a moral objection is pointless.  The people who use the services and the people who provide the services are simply filling a need.
If players would rather pay someone else to play your game than play it themselves then you need to reconsider your game design.  If players 'need' to buy gold from a third party to get the items they need in your game then, again, look at your design.

If it is profitable to be a gold farmer in your game then maybe you should look at why and how to make it less so?

Edit: Which is kind of where we started - isn't it?

 

Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  Superman0X

Elite Member

Joined: 3/28/06
Posts: 1074

11/22/09 9:06:13 PM#110
Originally posted by Gyrus
Originally posted by Superman0X
...

The use of stolen credit cards is very common in the online gaming industry. It is way above the standard 1%.

Proof.  Show me a figure.  90% of stats on the internet are made up.

Call your Bank. Ask them. They can give you the best stats. Any stats I can quote could be made up. So I wont try to quote you something you will just not believe to be true.

There is a very simple reason why banks dont care... they get their money back. The MMO has to eat the cost, not the bank.

If you read the thread - I did my research on this.  The merchant has a responsibility to carry out certain checks prior to accepting payment from a credit card.  If they carry out those checks (as specified in their agreement) then they will still get payed.

Not true. Banks reserve the right to chargeback for up to 30 days. Paypal reserves this right for 6 months. If you are a merchant, just check your agreement (it is in the fine print).

As for the MMO causing the chargeback, that isnt true either. Stolen credit cards can be obtained for less than $1, but are only good for ~3-5 days. After that the online company is informed that the card has been reported stolen. Companies that only do monthly charges do not normally catch this until the next re-occuring charge. Dont believe me? Charge a montly fee on a card, then call it in to your bank as stolen. Service will not shut off until the next charge, despite being immediately invalidated.

You are confusing the provided service with chargebacks with bans with stolen cards with billing cycle here.
All separate issues.

Yes. They are separate issues. However, chargebacks for cancelation of services are very rare, whereas chargebacks for fraud are very common.

 

 

  Gyrus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/20/07
Posts: 2323

11/22/09 9:50:31 PM#111
Originally posted by Superman0X
Originally posted by Gyrus
Originally posted by Superman0X
......

Call your Bank. Ask them. They can give you the best stats. Any stats I can quote could be made up. So I wont try to quote you something you will just not believe to be true.

You and I both know that you cannot obtain info on another merchant.

Not true. Banks reserve the right to chargeback for up to 30 days. Paypal reserves this right for 6 months. If you are a merchant, just check your agreement (it is in the fine print).

Yes.  But under what conditions?  If you fail to provide the customer with the service they paid for?
If you cancel the service the customer paid for?

Yes. They are separate issues. However, chargebacks for cancelation of services are very rare, whereas chargebacks for fraud are very common.

Again, if the Merchant has carried out all the required checks as required prior to accepting payment from the card they should not be hit by any fees or charges.

 

 

 

Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  Angelof2070

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/09
Posts: 229

11/23/09 12:31:00 AM#112

I think the entire argument is stupid.

I see nothing wrong with buying gold, other than being scammed by nasty korean thieves or dealing with chinese customer service.

I've bought gold in WoW and EQ2. The result? Nothing really.

It's nothing I couldn't have gotten from an altruistic guildmate who farmed for 1 hour on a level 80. Nothing I couldn't have done by borrowing a friend's lvl 80 account, or leveling up my own lvl 80. But why did I spend $6 for 1000 gold? Because I want to have FUN. Because my time is valuable enough to justify spending $6 in 1 hour rather than 1 month boring grinding just to "play" the game with max enjoyment. I didn't have to beg guildmates- in fact I got to donate 100 gold to my guild which was struggling.

The result? Everyone had more fun.

Did it ruin the economy? No. It never does in games that have been running for years.
What ruins economies are the fact that a level 80 can farm 10000000g in a week, while a level 1 would be able to level 20 characters to 80 by the time it even got 100g.

What ruins the economy is the fact there is no economy. All items are overpriced, because everyone already has a level 80 character with infinite money. For a level 1-20, a single raw material for crafting a crappy piece of gear is often 1000x more expensive than it should but, but still pathetically cheap for a level 80.

 

In EQ2, I was banned within minutes, which is just stupid. The game caters to people who have max level alts. To even compete in the market, a new player is forced to 1) have a friend, 2) have a giving/crafting guild, 3) buy gold, or 4) solo grind to max level before being able to have fun.
I payed $15 for a month of gameplay. To banned me because of my private business should be illegal. I had no problems contesting the charge, because the company denied me the service I payed for. They don't get my money if they try to cheat me, saying "Sure, $15 for a month of gameplay. " and change their mind. Because guess what? If they change their mind, so does my wallet. When they refuse to give money back, they get a swift letter from my lawyer and I'm refunded even more swiftly. Why? Because they know they cheated me out of my service by denying it and going back on the deal.

 

 

I play games to have fun.
I pay $15 a month for that fun.
I pay $6 more a month to have 100x more fun.
After level 20, I stop buying gold bc $6 worth of gold becomes way too little.

I'd argue that Gold Farming, for the most part, is solely for newbies and low levels. It's also justified, since the price of a level 1 item is often the same price as a level 80 item. This gets even more ridiculous with twinking, the fact you can't craft EVERYTHING, and the fact there is no real economy or currency in the game- and an infinite amount of cash can be collected.

In reality, there is only ONE difference between a guild being kind enough to farm for a week to supply new members with 1000g gold, and a group of koreans being smart enough to farm for a week to supply new members with 1000g.
That difference is as simple as Kindness vs a $6 price tag.

It doesn't harm the game, because an infinite amount of currency is made. IT doesn't harm the game, because only a very very FEW amount of players have the money to buy any max level amount of gold. To become rich for a month at lvl 1-20 cost $6. To be rich for a day at lvl 80 cost $160.

 

When Fallen Earth released, I agreed with the protest against gold farmers. A brand new game has a real economy. There are no max level players farming instances. There is no hording of level 1 items that are reserved only for those with max level alts.
Things are VERY different from a brand new game (which have FAIR markets) and a game that's been around WAY too long.

The nerds can argue all they want- but until they make a game that prevents max levels from monopolizing the economy or provide a REAL economy with a LIMITED amount of currency (which is "taxed" to prevent hoarding, "seized" on account canceling, etc.) then there's no reason to argue against gold farming.

The moment your games stop being so ridiculously biased against new players is the moment I'll join with you to stop the koreans. Until then, I scoff at the idiocy that is the fight against gold farmers. Games are made for fun, not to supply your unrealistic, twisted, life-killing nerd philosophies based on a false claim that it "ruins" an economy which was ruined long before gold farmers ever logged in.

  Gyrus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/20/07
Posts: 2323

11/23/09 1:25:10 AM#113

The other thing wrong with the whole "all gold farmers use stolen Cerdit Cards and all fraud is commited by Gold farmers argument is this:

If that's the case - simply close all accounts created with stolen credit cards.
You might say "DUH!"?
But really, think about it if the claims here about how Gold farmers work are true that is all there is too it?

So why do we still have gold farmers?

Is that true?
Well, no.  Because just like you and I, Gold farmers have real, long term, accounts they use as 'banks' and to collect high end loot.
Obviously they don't want that account to just vanish on them (when the CC Company notifies the MMO Company the account was created with a 'stolen' card).

So they have legitimate accounts too.

 

I don't doubt that accounts are created with stolen cards - or even that the rate is high compared to other typoes of merchants - but I do doubt it is as high as many are implying here.

So, in that case what can be done?

Rather than play the victim - the mature business like approach would be to contact the CC Company and discuss solutions.
"We have a 'high' rate of CC fraud in our industry... the online nature of our business is most likely a factor?  What can we all do to improve the security of the system here?

Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  just1opinion

Smart-Alek

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 4933

11/23/09 2:04:01 AM#114
Originally posted by Angelof2070

I think the entire argument is stupid.

I see nothing wrong with buying gold, other than being scammed by nasty korean thieves or dealing with chinese customer service.

That's fine, but not everyone agrees with you. You're entitled, however, to your opinion.

I've bought gold in WoW and EQ2. The result? Nothing really.

You were lucky. I've known several people in WoW that had their accounts banned, and in EQ2....good luck even trying. You're more apt to get away with it in WoW, because they have a lot more people to police.

It's nothing I couldn't have gotten from an altruistic guildmate who farmed for 1 hour on a level 80. Nothing I couldn't have done by borrowing a friend's lvl 80 account, or leveling up my own lvl 80. But why did I spend $6 for 1000 gold? Because I want to have FUN. Because my time is valuable enough to justify spending $6 in 1 hour rather than 1 month boring grinding just to "play" the game with max enjoyment.  Man, if it takes you a month to make 1000 gold...you don't know what to DO to make gold in the game.  "Making gold" is part of playing the game. Perhaps you don't find it fun, but I think it's rewarding to save to get something special, like fast flying mount training, or some crafted item I really want. I guess people just want everything instant now. It's sort of a drive-thru / microwave mentality people have any more, I guess. I didn't have to beg guildmates- in fact I got to donate 100 gold to my guild which was struggling.

The result? Everyone had more fun.

Did it ruin the economy? No. It never does in games that have been running for years.
What ruins economies are the fact that a level 80 can farm 10000000g in a week I thought you just said it would take you a MONTH to get 1000 gold?  while a level 1 would be able to level 20 characters to 80 by the time it even got 100g. At level 20 I had SEVERAL hundred gold gained by selling mats on the AH. Just simple stuff, ore, herbs. Higher levels pay good prices for mats if they don't feel like going to farm them or are in a hurry.  If you even have a FEW level 80s, then gold is absolutely NO problem whatsoever to come by, WITHOUT having to buy it. Dailies ALONE bring in 1000g then, and in only ONE day. If you have even ONE crafter, say...a jewelcrafter...you don't even need to do dailies, just go farm some ore....takes less than an hour. Seriously....if you have trouble with your gold "income" in WoW....you're not even remotely attempting to get gold honestly and fairly by PLAYING THE GAME.

What ruins the economy is the fact there is no economy. All items are overpriced, because everyone already has a level 80 character with infinite money. For a level 1-20, a single raw material for crafting a crappy piece of gear is often 1000x more expensive than it should but, but still pathetically cheap for a level 80. 

Did it ever occur to you to FARM the mats you need, like all the rest of us did? No one STARTS OUT with a level 80. Do you think when we were all leveling our first character we BOUGHT our mats? No...MOST of us farmed them on our own, raising our crafting skills as we went, so that we could charge lazy people like you for our "skills" that we spent time leveling. You could have done the same thing. Why bother playing a game if you're too lazy to play it? I never will understand that instant gratification thing in games. You want everything right now, rush to "end game," and then GET THERE and WHINE 'cause there's nothing to do and everything costs so much.

 

In EQ2, I was banned within minutes, which is just stupid. I thought you said "nothing happened?" The game caters to people who have max level alts. To even compete in the market, a new player is forced to 1) have a friend, 2) have a giving/crafting guild, 3) buy gold, or 4) solo grind to max level before being able to have fun.


I payed $15 for a month of gameplay. To banned me because of my private business should be illegal. 

No you got banned because you broke YOUR HALF of the agreement when you bought gold. Once you have broken the agreement, they aren't legally required to uphold their half. You've broken the "deal."

I had no problems contesting the charge, because the company denied me the service I payed for. They don't get my money if they try to cheat me, saying "Sure, $15 for a month of gameplay. " and change their mind.

And YOU don't get your game time if YOU try to cheat them, by buying gold. This is sort of a two way street here, but I can see you have no desire to take accountability for your own decision to break THEIR rules.

Because guess what? If they change their mind, so does my wallet. When they refuse to give money back, they get a swift letter from my lawyer and I'm refunded even more swiftly. Why? Because they know they cheated me out of my service by denying it and going back on the deal.

I would LOVE to see proof that you EVER got an attorney to get a game company to give you jack shit....lol. Especially since YOU broke THEIR terms of agreement. 

I play games to have fun.
I pay $15 a month for that fun.
I pay $6 more a month to have 100x more fun.
After level 20, I stop buying gold bc $6 worth of gold becomes way too little.

I'd argue that Gold Farming, for the most part, is solely for newbies and low levels. It's also justified, since the price of a level 1 item is often the same price as a level 80 item. This gets even more ridiculous with twinking, the fact you can't craft EVERYTHING, and the fact there is no real economy or currency in the game- and an infinite amount of cash can be collected. You keep saying there's all this "infinite" cash, but then you have to buy gold. Doesn't this seem a bit...I don't know...contradictory to you???

In reality, there is only ONE difference between a guild being kind enough to farm for a week to supply new members with 1000g gold, and a group of koreans being smart enough to farm for a week to supply new members with 1000g.
That difference is as simple as Kindness vs a $6 price tag.

It doesn't harm the game, because an infinite amount of currency is made. IT doesn't harm the game, because only a very very FEW amount of players have the money to buy any max level amount of gold. To become rich for a month at lvl 1-20 cost $6. To be rich for a day at lvl 80 cost $160.

 

When Fallen Earth released, I agreed with the protest against gold farmers. A brand new game has a real economy. There are no max level players farming instances. There is no hording of level 1 items that are reserved only for those with max level alts.
Things are VERY different from a brand new game (which have FAIR markets) and a game that's been around WAY too long.

And I hope karma bites you in the ass, and you end up seeing EXACTLY how gold farmers wreck a game's economy in a game that YOU like. Have fun with that!!

The nerds can argue all they want- but until they make a game that prevents max levels from monopolizing the economy or provide a REAL economy with a LIMITED amount of currency (which is "taxed" to prevent hoarding, "seized" on account canceling, etc.) then there's no reason to argue against gold farming.

The moment your games stop being so ridiculously biased against new players is the moment I'll join with you to stop the koreans. Until then, I scoff at the idiocy that is the fight against gold farmers. Games are made for fun, not to supply your unrealistic, twisted, life-killing nerd philosophies based on a false claim that it "ruins" an economy which was ruined long before gold farmers ever logged in. YOU JUST SAID "new games have a real economy." Every game is new, at some point, isn't it? You're really not very good at talking out of both sides of your mouth. See....what I think the deal is, is that you WANT to be that max level player that "has all the loot," but unless you start when a game is new, you don't have any confidence that you can do that. I have to wonder how YOU will handle pricing YOUR hard earned items on the broker in game once you're max level in a game that you started NEW in.......

ROFLMAO. Uhm....don't let the door hit you in the ass, because I'm PRETTY sure that most REAL gamers, aren't really interested in you "joining with them" anyway. This tirade of yours has convinced more than a few of us, I'm sure.

 

 

President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club

  DrowNoble

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/12/05
Posts: 1283

11/23/09 9:50:49 AM#115
Originally posted by Piewacket

How can NcSoft be 100% sure you bought gold with r/l money. With in our clan there are loans, gifts, rewards all the time in adena and we talk about them in Vent, so no log of those transactions and why would be in game as reference. Also, there is the abiltiy to scam people so if you look for something being sold at a very high price, you ban both players?

 

No, NcSoft can't just ban. They must be so sure and that is the 2nd rub of the gm's life. It would be nice if they grep'd the sql logs every morning, ran a report to see the amount of adena that changed hands and looked further, but now you have the real problem of places selling in game items too for real life money. How does one track and kill those? Can't be done unless someone says something stupid in chat.

 

We don't have the gold spammers in Lineage 2 that much any more, but the global block wouldn't help much. They need to be able to kill those accounts as fast as they spam their announcements. That would require Ncsoft to double or triple the GM staff and up their training and find gm's that love the game and not just borg's looking for a paycheck.

 


 

Well one sign that you bought money is if you received the sum from a low level character.  Gold sellers will typically use a "trash account" to deliver the money.  So if that account gets banned they don't care.  Spammer Account A farms the gold and mails the money to Spammer Account B, who then in turn gives to Low Life Player C.  So the can see if someone's 50 hero/villain gave a lowbie an inf gift or did some lvl 1 named dkdjfjfjk give it instead.

If  you see someone spamming in chat, global, general, trade, whatever you kick them immediately and suspend the account.  Then they can have a supervisor decided whether or not to ban the account.  Legit players aren't going to make a macro and spam the chat with "buygold.com cheap! gold 4 u" endlessly.

The global block would help out the players a lot.  We all know that ignoring gjkkdkdk does nothing as after spamming for 5 mins they simply delete that char, make another gibberish one and log back on.  By globally ignoring them I'd never see any of their spams for as long as they use that account.   NCSoft could check how many accounts get globally ignored to help see which ones are spammer accounts.  If one got a lot of hits for global ignores, they can then check the logs and see why.  If they find "buy inf cheap.com" ads, then POOF the account goes bye bye.

  erictlewis

Novice Member

Joined: 11/08/08
Posts: 3058

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results.

11/23/09 10:18:00 AM#116
Originally posted by DrowNoble
Originally posted by Piewacket

How can NcSoft be 100% sure you bought gold with r/l money. With in our clan there are loans, gifts, rewards all the time in adena and we talk about them in Vent, so no log of those transactions and why would be in game as reference. Also, there is the abiltiy to scam people so if you look for something being sold at a very high price, you ban both players?

 

No, NcSoft can't just ban. They must be so sure and that is the 2nd rub of the gm's life. It would be nice if they grep'd the sql logs every morning, ran a report to see the amount of adena that changed hands and looked further, but now you have the real problem of places selling in game items too for real life money. How does one track and kill those? Can't be done unless someone says something stupid in chat.

 

We don't have the gold spammers in Lineage 2 that much any more, but the global block wouldn't help much. They need to be able to kill those accounts as fast as they spam their announcements. That would require Ncsoft to double or triple the GM staff and up their training and find gm's that love the game and not just borg's looking for a paycheck.

 


 

Well one sign that you bought money is if you received the sum from a low level character.  Gold sellers will typically use a "trash account" to deliver the money.  So if that account gets banned they don't care.  Spammer Account A farms the gold and mails the money to Spammer Account B, who then in turn gives to Low Life Player C.  So the can see if someone's 50 hero/villain gave a lowbie an inf gift or did some lvl 1 named dkdjfjfjk give it instead.

If  you see someone spamming in chat, global, general, trade, whatever you kick them immediately and suspend the account.  Then they can have a supervisor decided whether or not to ban the account.  Legit players aren't going to make a macro and spam the chat with "buygold.com cheap! gold 4 u" endlessly.

The global block would help out the players a lot.  We all know that ignoring gjkkdkdk does nothing as after spamming for 5 mins they simply delete that char, make another gibberish one and log back on.  By globally ignoring them I'd never see any of their spams for as long as they use that account.   NCSoft could check how many accounts get globally ignored to help see which ones are spammer accounts.  If one got a lot of hits for global ignores, they can then check the logs and see why.  If they find "buy inf cheap.com" ads, then POOF the account goes bye bye.


 

I agree they could do some stuff with filtering,  looking for websites and stuff.  They could also put a temp ban on those giving out websites as most of those are either selling gold or giving out bad websites with virus info.   Helpfull websites could be posted in the forums.  Also I am sure they could put some kind of tracking on cash. Like say you got a pig payout of gold is a dead givaway.  They check your account against what you sold on the ah and eanred via questing/looting/vender junk.  I think that banning folks who buy the gold as well as well it and I mean perma ban them not not of this temp ban stuff like lotro does.

  Ozmodan

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 6784

11/23/09 10:29:39 AM#117
Originally posted by Gyrus
Originally posted by Ozmodan

 Only a clueless poster condones cheating in any shape or form.  The only thing I get from your comments is that your mores are warped which unfortunately is quite common in the younger generation.  Maybe you should readdress them.

So, your argument comes down to "You're stupid and selfish and too young to comment."?

Well, speaking for myself - my first computer was a ZX81- I am hardly from the younger generation.

Other than that, how does calling people 'stupid' help to address the issue of gold farming?

How does calling gold farmers (and the people who use their services) 'cheaters' and / or 'liars' address the issue?

How does attacking a person based on their generation help?

 

The fact is none of it does.

And this is where you, and the MMO companies fail.  This is why you fail.  This is why gold farming continues.

Because rather than look at the actual problem, you get all emotive about it and basically chuck a tantrum based on your personal feelings on the issue.  If you think this approach works I encourage you to find a gold farmer in game or even find a gold farming site and email them your personal and moral view of the world and the way it should be.

And that solves exactly - nothing.

 

If you are serious about actually solving the 'problem' then dump all the emotional stuff and address the issue at hand.

Look at all the options open and consider which ones have been tried and which haven't.

Look at which ones have worked and which haven't.

 

To me, I see gold farming as a business - so to deal with it look at how to make that business less profitable.
But apparently, people (and MMO companies) would rather just continue on the tired old treadmill of 'banning' them.
I hasn't worked and it doesn't work - but hey - bashing your head against a wall is fun so why try a different approach?

 

You just don't get it do you?  The rules of the game are stated up front, violating them is cheating.  Advocates that say buying gold is ok are just saying is cheating is ok.  It is clearly ok to call a cheater's mores warped.  Cheating is NEVER OK.  There is nothing real world about a game, it is just a game played for fun to challenge your skills verses others.  I don't care how old you are, cheating is cheating.  Why play a game when you think the rules don't apply?  What is the point of having rules then?

  Gyrus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/20/07
Posts: 2323

11/23/09 11:10:34 AM#118
Originally posted by Ozmodan

You just don't get it do you?  The rules of the game are stated up front, violating them is cheating.  Advocates that say buying gold is ok are just saying is cheating is ok.  It is clearly ok to call a cheater's mores warped.  Cheating is NEVER OK.  There is nothing real world about a game, it is just a game played for fun to challenge your skills verses others.  I don't care how old you are, cheating is cheating.  Why play a game when you think the rules don't apply?  What is the point of having rules then?

No you don't get it.

I suggest you re-read the original article.
Here are the bits you should pay careful attention to:

"I’ve been hired (again) by NCsoft this week, to work as a developer and data analyst for their new Game Surveillance Unit. This CSI-sounding department is responsible for quashing botting and gold selling in their titles, some of which has been a bit of a problem of late.

...

This is a very brief summary of a fairly large problem, and one with few value judgments on the relative morality of gold buying, powerlevelling, or what have you. However you feel about these subjects, the wreckage from the current state of “the game” between developers and farmers is plain to see, and dealing with this is a challenge that every developer has to tackle if they want to deliver a successful, fun, and profitable product.

And much like any other vice, enforcement only goes so far, as long as there is a demand."

Do you see it now?

Scott Jennings's new job is to try to stop gold farming activities.  NOT to make moral judgements on it.  Because all the moral judgements in the world don't help.
Suppose Mr Jennings goes into his bosses office today and says "I've got it!  Gold Farming / Gold Buying / Power Leveling and Botting is CHEATING!!!!!"?
Do you think they will all sit back - breath a big sigh of relief - and say "Well, lucky we hired you then... wow... you just paid for yourself!  We should immediately tell all the players...that ought to stop it!"

Your moral outrage achieves nothing.

 

So your next solution is to say:  "The rules of the game are stated up front, violating them is cheating." at which point you no doubt wish to fall back on the good old 'BAN THE ACCOUNT!' solution?
Well, that has actually been tried - and it does not appear to be working.

In fact - I would suggest to you that banning the account in many cases actually helps the gold farmer and harms the MMO company still more.

Why?

Because as I said - at that point the gold farmer calls his credit card company (assuming he was using a valid card - which I am sure they do at least some of the time for reasons I stated earlier) and says "That evil MMO company is refusing to allow me to play the game I payed for... I want my money back!"
And you know what?  He will almost certainly get it.
And the MMO company may also get hit with fees for being so evil to their customer and making the CC company do extra work.

 

So I say - try a different way.

 

Meanwhile - I suggest you go tell a few of the bots in Aion that "Cheating is NEVER OK."
 

Let me know how that works out for you?
 

 

 

 

Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  just1opinion

Smart-Alek

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 4933

11/23/09 4:24:37 PM#119
Originally posted by Gyrus
Originally posted by Ozmodan

You just don't get it do you?  The rules of the game are stated up front, violating them is cheating.  Advocates that say buying gold is ok are just saying is cheating is ok.  It is clearly ok to call a cheater's mores warped.  Cheating is NEVER OK.  There is nothing real world about a game, it is just a game played for fun to challenge your skills verses others.  I don't care how old you are, cheating is cheating.  Why play a game when you think the rules don't apply?  What is the point of having rules then?

No you don't get it.

I suggest you re-read the original article.
Here are the bits you should pay careful attention to:

"I’ve been hired (again) by NCsoft this week, to work as a developer and data analyst for their new Game Surveillance Unit. This CSI-sounding department is responsible for quashing botting and gold selling in their titles, some of which has been a bit of a problem of late.

...

This is a very brief summary of a fairly large problem, and one with few value judgments on the relative morality of gold buying, powerlevelling, or what have you. However you feel about these subjects, the wreckage from the current state of “the game” between developers and farmers is plain to see, and dealing with this is a challenge that every developer has to tackle if they want to deliver a successful, fun, and profitable product.

And much like any other vice, enforcement only goes so far, as long as there is a demand."

Do you see it now?

Scott Jennings's new job is to try to stop gold farming activities.  NOT to make moral judgements on it.  Because all the moral judgements in the world don't help.
Suppose Mr Jennings goes into his bosses office today and says "I've got it!  Gold Farming / Gold Buying / Power Leveling and Botting is CHEATING!!!!!"?
Do you think they will all sit back - breath a big sigh of relief - and say "Well, lucky we hired you then... wow... you just paid for yourself!  We should immediately tell all the players...that ought to stop it!"

Your moral outrage achieves nothing.

 

So your next solution is to say:  "The rules of the game are stated up front, violating them is cheating." at which point you no doubt wish to fall back on the good old 'BAN THE ACCOUNT!' solution?
Well, that has actually been tried - and it does not appear to be working.

In fact - I would suggest to you that banning the account in many cases actually helps the gold farmer and harms the MMO company still more.

Why?

Because as I said - at that point the gold farmer calls his credit card company (assuming he was using a valid card - which I am sure they do at least some of the time for reasons I stated earlier) and says "That evil MMO company is refusing to allow me to play the game I payed for... I want my money back!"
And you know what?  He will almost certainly get it.
And the MMO company may also get hit with fees for being so evil to their customer and making the CC company do extra work.

 

So I say - try a different way.

 

Meanwhile - I suggest you go tell a few of the bots in Aion that "Cheating is NEVER OK."
 

Let me know how that works out for you?
 

 

 

 

 

Well he's not telling BOTS, now is he? He was responding to another human being, that unless he's programmed a bot to type up his posts on MMORPG.com, is as present and reading as you are right now.

 

I think anyone that wants to argue how the game developers feel about this, is pretty foolish. Obviously, game developers do NOT like gold farming, botting, and....call it what you may....cheating. I don't really see how  "cheating" is a "moral judgement."

 

Main Entry: 1cheat
Pronunciation: \?ch?t\
Function: verb
Etymology: 2cheat
Date: 1590
transitive verb

1 : to deprive of something valuable by the use of deceit or fraud
2 : to influence or lead by deceit, trick, or artifice
3 : to elude or thwart by or as if by outwitting <cheat death>intransitive verb 1 a : to practice fraud or trickery b : to violate rules dishonestly <cheat at cards> <cheating on a test>
2 : to be sexually unfaithful —usually used with on <was cheating on his wife>
3 : to position oneself defensively near a particular area in anticipation of a play in that area <the shortstop was cheating toward second base>

 

If you sign an agreement NOT to do something, and then go back on your word....how "moral" is that. Actually....screw the word "moral".....how much INTEGRITY does that show you have? You have "violated the RULES dishonestly." Call it that...if you hate the word "cheating" so much. Oh wait....they're the same thing. Never mind.  /rolls eyes

 

Furthermore, they MAY get a CC refund for the game time, HOWEVER.....no CC company can force the game developers to let you back into the game or UNban your account or IP (if they choose to ban that too). And....you would have no one to blame but yourself. You made an agreement with the game company to go by their rules, they made an agreement to let you continue playing in their world as long as you do so. Once you break the agreement, they are no longer bound to give you anything, other than possibly refunding your 15 bucks from that month....MAYBE.

 

Here's another thread of interest on how game developers "feel" about botting:

 

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/260327

 

"Your account has been suspended because you BREACHED THE GAME SERVICE AGREEMENT....." I think that's fairly plain. And they're not at ALL the first to do that, and there are companies that have even sued in civil court for individuals who made a botting program for their game. I'm not sure what ELSE developers would have to do to make it pretty damn effing CLEAR what THEY think of botting, gold selling, buying, gold spamming, etc.

 

Just because people want to JUSTIFY DOING it....doesn't make it a legitimate endeavor.

 

 

President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club

  bamdorf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/09/09
Posts: 150

11/23/09 6:03:50 PM#120

 

When people engage in a game activity of any kind, they engage with the expectation that other players will follow the same rules that they agreed to follow before they started to play.

Whether those rules are "arguable" or not is not the point here.   If you don't like the rules...you are not obligated to play.

So if you understand the rules clearly --- and anyone posting here must --- and chose to break the rules, its not just that you are a cheater, by definition.

Its that you are degrading the game experience for everyone else who have the colossally weird idea that they should follow the rules.

Like a friend of mine who commented recently after an experience in Wintergrasp (WOW) that an opposing toon had wiped them flat in no time.      You don't think it might just make a difference to someone that the other toon bought their superiority?

Sounds like it might just crush the life out of one's game experience.    What's the point.

But then anyone rationalizing breaking an agreement is only thinking about themselves.    They don't care about any body else, so cheating doesn't matter.

 

---------------------------
Rose-lipped maidens,
Light-foot lads...

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