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News & Features Discussion  » General: Jennings: Real Money, Real Problems

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161 posts found
  Sturmrabe

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/08/03
Posts: 993

TO VICTORY OR VALHALLA!

11/20/09 12:49:39 PM#81

The article is honest, and anyone who thinks otherwise is clueless... but I have to say:

 

I'll never play a game with an item mall or SOEbay... EVER.

 

Its the same as gold farming, just more legitimate.


Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche

  Gyrus

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/20/07
Posts: 2323

11/20/09 4:20:14 PM#82
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

 

I've played DDO, never found it that interesting.

 

Thing is that sure it's fine with having character bonuses that stem from how many quests you've run. But that still doesn't make your character unique because everyone ends up with them. People like making their character unique and special in a world of hundreds of thousands of players if not a game of millions. The only way this can be accomplished is through rare/unique items which is one of the smart moves that WoW has always done, and part of the reason they are so far ahead of every other game subscriber wise.

 

Games get boring when everyone is the same, and it's a major problem in MMOs. You either have a class system so there's the 20-30 combinations of classes and races that the million players all use so everyone is the same. Or there is a skill tree and it still boils down to a set number of combinations that gets repeated over and over and over. Unique titles/items are the only way in current games to make your character different. And that fuels the gold buying and selling to another level.

Reading your post it is clear that you are really concerned with being 'unique'.

It's also clear that you can only see one way to achieve that - through 'unique gear'.

I would suggest to you perhaps you should concentrate more on the journey than the destination... but that's just me.

I would suggest that (as you say) greater class and skill options would provide that 'uniqueness' too.  Since these could be independent of gold and gear they would also be something gold farmers could not service (maybe power leveling services though?).

However, in your case, based on what you have written I would suggest the best MMOs for you are ones with strong Avatar creation routines: Champions Online?  Pirates of the Burning Sea? and probably WoW?

Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  Phlegethon

Novice Member

Joined: 11/20/09
Posts: 26

11/20/09 5:17:48 PM#83

Great article.

  Simiel

Novice Member

Joined: 10/31/09
Posts: 157

11/20/09 5:32:24 PM#84

@ScottJennings

Yes, you are choked full of bias.

Please write an explanation of why Aion is getting ass-kicked by bots and gold-selling spams. Because frankly, not many people care for (“[MMO company] doesn’t do anything about gold farming because they’re in on it. They get kickbacks under the table from gold sellers, so they won’t ever make any serious attempt to stop them.”) nor even really think about it, you just bring it up, because you got defensive.
Anyway, why is Aion full of bots and gold-selling SPAMS? take games like Darkfall, WoW, ect for example, they obviously care enough to prevent those things from happening. Is it false to assume Aion does not care? no, it isn't. Actually, Aion doesn't really have any other explanation for these problems. It's sad, since their Lineage2 had the same problem.

I'll list some excuses Aion has to offer, and these are MUCH less likely than "they just don't care"
- huge player-base, no control.
-......

  erictlewis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/08/08
Posts: 3058

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results.

11/21/09 7:21:08 AM#85

It is amazing to me how the gold farmers are able to exploit the system so freely.  The gold farmers seam to almost get there with no problem and make tons of gold/plat/isk instantly.

However I got also point out another well know thing and its not quite a gold farming thing.

In several games there are certain guilds/kins.  They have a website.  They loot stuff put it up on their website.  Then they promotie this website.  You go to their website and use real world cash to buy looted items.   Im not sure this is gold farming per say but it is just as bad.  I know  they got the ban hammer at lotro for this, and lotro tryies to fight this kind of thing buy using the BOA bind on aquire thing. However I see them do this all the time in EQ2 and sony has to know about it, its always comming accross the auction channels. I am sure it happens in other gams as well.

 

 

  Holst86

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/23/09
Posts: 25

11/21/09 9:30:52 AM#86

I dont know if anyone wrote about this earlier anyway I'm writing my observation.

“[MMO company] doesn’t do anything about gold farming because they’re in on it. They get kickbacks under the table from gold sellers, so they won’t ever make any serious attempt to stop them.”

Ive seen plenty of these Free to play games co-operating with goldseller/powerlevlers, free2play games that have advertisement on serious gamer homepages and are registered like serious(?) games on your "game list". It saddens me how these chinese free2play crap games tried to milk out as much cash as possible from the industry. Looking at your "Game list" and seeing plenty of those free to play so called games with micro payment and knowing in one way or another they work with goldsellers makes me sick.Makes me wonder why you have advertisment with such games on this page? I bet they pay you good, with money harvested from micro payments, goldselling and other services. I for myself think its double standard and bad honor as goldselling have a bad influence on all serious real games.

Of course serious companies with real games arent "in on it" with goldsellers but as I think most people with common sense and with gaming experience understand and know that Free to play games are working with goldsellers.
 

  rafaelrehn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/13/06
Posts: 251

11/21/09 2:26:08 PM#87

 have you thought of using players as bounty hunters ie instead of ignoring report of bots actually rewarding people who do it/report (extra time etc) you woulld get a lot of people working together united against the botters

  Kusanoha

Novice Member

Joined: 1/03/05
Posts: 47

11/21/09 6:36:18 PM#88
Originally posted by dterry

I'll probably get flamed for this but....

 

1.) No trading between characters/accounts at all. You sell or give your item (acquired by crafting or looting) to an NPC or an NPC auction house and they resell it to another player at a fixed rate(or variable based on in game availablity of the item at the time of sale) - and then send you back the money.

I agree with this. It makes the in-game economy insanely easy to regulate. Or at least, let players "purchase" vendors and auction houses that can then be monitored by the devs. So only subscription accounts can have the ability to start their own in-game business (making money off of auction houses) while everyone else, and those unwilling to pay for a "business liscense" in-game must live with the dev-controlled economic prices.

Moreover, this makes it easier to set up a GUI/Database monitor that allows devs to see abnormalities (large cash transfers) and catch spammers and gold sellers more readily, because the devs only have to monitor NPC transactions, not player-to-player transactions.

 

2.) Force antivirus on the client - same as business VPN solutions - if your not running AV or it is not up to date,  then you fail the logon.

It's a nice idea on paper, but in reality this is a horrible idea =\  The developers cannot be trusted to know the "right" AV protection to put on their accepted lists. Norton and Macafee will be prominently accepted, but both of these are awful to the point of the criminal in terms of computer performace once they are installed, and overall virus/malware detection. And you can be sure the devs will eventually accept kick-downs and deals from AV companies to include some, but not ALL AV programs on their list. Imagine being forced to buy Norton when you already have Nod32 just so you can play your MMO? It would kill sales of the game and generate bad PR.

3.) Run your own scan after the AV check - looking for keyloggers or IP/MAC spoofing software on the client. - Do this in the open - not hiding it from the client.

People should do this anyway. Every time you go anywhere online, you should run a scan. Even on a Mac (less viruses written for them. They are NOT immune). But it isn't the responsability of the game company to enforce clean computers on anyone's end but their own. Instead, it would be best to have two systems in place. An easy and secure account recovery proccess (there are multiple ways to do this) AND a record of the original name on the account and enforcement of standards in this regard. You can change your card number(with a phone call and security check), but the name on the card HAS to match the original name on the account. PERIOD. You pretty much solve account stealing right there, and there goes your account sales problem too.

4.) Ban people caught in RMT based on IP/MAC/credit card information.

Right on.

5.) Enforce password complexity.

Always seemed kinda dumb that they don't.

For starters...

 

[Begin Sarcasm]

Girls don't use the internet unless theres a webcam involved....its a physical impossibility.

They also don't play them thar vidya gaymes, mmorpg = most men online role play girls...even in ventrillo.

-kyte317

  User Deleted
11/21/09 6:40:43 PM#89

Stolen Credit Cards?

 

This excuse is getting really tired. I am sure a stolen credit card was used once to scam an MMO account but it is not nearly the problem Scott would have us believe. This kind of stuff is just BS excuse that makes us lose focus of the real problem.

Banks track all charge backs. Most business have less than %1 charge backs. If you go over that limit your business and practices will come under scrutiny. If MMOS were such a problem then Credit Card Companies would have already started limiting our ability to use them to pay for these transactions. This is not a problem.

 

  Sturmrabe

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/08/03
Posts: 993

TO VICTORY OR VALHALLA!

11/21/09 6:51:00 PM#90
Originally posted by h8erberry

Stolen Credit Cards?

 

This excuse is getting really tired. I am sure a stolen credit card was used once to scam an MMO account but it is not nearly the problem Scott would have us believe. This kind of stuff is just BS excuse that makes us lose focus of the real problem.

Banks track all charge backs. Most business have less than %1 charge backs. If you go over that limit your business and practices will come under scrutiny. If MMOS were such a problem then Credit Card Companies would have already started limiting our ability to use them to pay for these transactions. This is not a problem.

 


 

Wow... you live a sheltered life, eh? Just because people aren't talking about it in the news today doesn't mean identity theft has died down... its been on the rise as a matter of fact.


Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche

  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

11/21/09 7:52:06 PM#91

The bizzareness of this debate is, that, as in any social issue, people call for more control and for more drastic penalities. And ever since USA has death penality, it is known to have no crime. Oh wait, it has? Maybe *something* isn't all correct about this harsh penalities.

About 2200 years ago Lao-Tsu wrote that better locks only lead to more clever thiefs. The only way to prevent diamonds from being stolen is stopping to regard diamonds as something of value. And what was wise and true 2200 years ago is so today.

But sure, we can try better locks, better passwords, more control, more people monitoring our doings.

Who watches the watchmen? Ever REALLY thought about that? I mean, yeah you can place a camera on every damn corner of London, but does it prevent crime? Answer, nope it doesn't. I know it sounds like emo blah blah, but they only real way to prevent crime is to create a society of justice, of mercy, a humanitarian society and not train people into a wolf eats sheep kinda of Darwinism. People learn to exploit people in RL and why should they not do so in games?

I find it fundamentally funny that American, the epitome of Capitalism and Free Market, always is the first to bitch when the very rules of Free Market and Capitalism turn against them. It's always the same. You advocate it when it benefits you, and when America imported Cola and Burgers into every damn corner of the world, hurray to Free Market and woe to those who protect their markets. But when finally someone else (in this case China) applies the same rules of "all has a price" better, then you call for control and to shut them out of your American markets and start to go on a rampage about evil Chinese and evil French, whom you shoved your Cola and Burgers and whatnot for profit and didn't care rat's ass about their culture and their way to doing things.

Either markets ARE free and all legal things ARE free to sell and there IS that invisible hand of free trade to regulate itself OR NOT. Capitalism OR Socialism, you can't have both, you can' t change your preferrence just based on who has the upper hand at any given moment. THAT IS MF HYPPOCRISY! You sowed that free trade idology now you goddamn have to reap and swallow it! Did not the USA went to every damn corner of the world spreading their idea of capitalism and their system wherever they went, thinking it the best of all possible worlds? Well, dammit they did. Now don't look so surprised if the wind you sowed comes back as a storm.

And if you think all this has nada to do with RMT, you didn't even BEGIN to think.

 

As an act of self-critique, as a German, let me assure you, YOU CAN NOT PREVENT CRIME BY MORE CONTROL. PERIOD.

We had SS in the Nazi regime, we had Stasi in the socialist Germany, and trust me, despite those VERY extensive methods of controlling people's doing, there STILL was crime. Control and punishment JUST DONT WORK. Imbalances are symptoms of something, and while RMT sure is bad, it is a symptom that something with MMORPGs is fundamentally wrong. You all look at the issue of the totally wrong angle. Someone is bad, some control and punish. And we never look damn second what the reasons behind this are. Only in comics people just "are evil". Reality usually has more complex patterns. When people play game and pay money for services, something in those games is apparently not fun enough to just do it. I didn't think it would be so difficult to think about this.

Of course companies have all reason to put the evil of RMT in the foreground. They don't want us to realize something fundamental of their games is actually wrong. Very wrong. And we, all the faithful sheep, just blindly repeat their creeds. Seriously, I can't eat so much as I want to puke these days over the sheer stupidity of people.

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  chess912

Novice Member

Joined: 8/24/09
Posts: 1

11/21/09 7:55:20 PM#92

The author is so stupid mindless. Some of the GREAT WESTERNERS always think they know everything about others even if they never speak those languages. The entire aritcal is a fallacy. If you are not, plz go talk to them and then take your shyt.  The GREAT FIREWALL? Oh yes, if i type fuck you, if it not banned, ok it is great firewall, if it is, then i can call you THE GREAT FUCKERWALL.

No western MMOs can live in China but WOW, the asian games on mmorpg.com, 95% has already died out in asia, but idk why some westerners still playing.

  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

11/21/09 8:04:30 PM#93
Originally posted by chess912

The author is so stupid mindless. Some of the GREAT WESTERNERS always think they know everything about others even if they never speak those languages. The entire aritcal is a fallacy. If you are not, plz go talk to them and then take your shyt.  The GREAT FIREWALL? Oh yes, if i type fuck you, if it not banned, ok it is great firewall, if it is, then i can call you THE GREAT FUCKERWALL.

No western MMOs can live in China but WOW, the asian games on mmorpg.com, 95% has already died out in asia, but idk why some westerners still playing.

 

I am a Westerner, but I am with you in this. Critizise USA and you get a ban faster than you can say "Gesundheit".

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  just1opinion

Smart-Alek

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 4933

11/21/09 9:54:10 PM#94
Originally posted by Elikal
Originally posted by chess912

The author is so stupid mindless. Some of the GREAT WESTERNERS always think they know everything about others even if they never speak those languages. The entire aritcal is a fallacy. If you are not, plz go talk to them and then take your shyt.  The GREAT FIREWALL? Oh yes, if i type fuck you, if it not banned, ok it is great firewall, if it is, then i can call you THE GREAT FUCKERWALL.

No western MMOs can live in China but WOW, the asian games on mmorpg.com, 95% has already died out in asia, but idk why some westerners still playing.

 

I am a Westerner, but I am with you in this. Critizise USA and you get a ban faster than you can say "Gesundheit".

 

 It's not "criticizing" the U.S.  that will get you banned. It's racism and direct personal insults. Nationalism, in an extreme form, as you, a German, should know....can easily be considered a type of racism.

 

Now the part of your "argument" that was flawed (in your post BEFORE the one I quoted here) is in your comparing McDonald's (or whatever) having stores overseas, to Chinese (or any other nationality) gold farmers here in games that people in the U.S. might play. The big difference with THAT....is that gold farming is illegal.  It doesn't matter HOW you try to twist it. It's against the law, it's against the legal agreements you sign when you log in to a game. Yes, I know....no one seems to care about that fact, but...it IS a fact.

 

You cannot sell something that doesn't belong to you. You cannot sell (nor buy) game gold LEGALLY, unless you are buying it from the company that makes the game. It is a virtual item, a graphic, coding, that belongs to THEM, not you. So for you to compare LEGALLY selling hamburgers from the U.S. to China and China ILLEGALLY selling gold that doesn't belong to them to SELL......apples and oranges.

 

But I have a feeling that anything anyone from the U.S. says to you, will just be considered garbage, since your hatred for the U.S. citizens seems to roll out of your pores. And yet you....speak of all this good morality, peace, kindness, goodness, and that's how to change the world....

 

Okay.  How about you can start with your own intolerance? Novel concept, I'm sure.

President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club

  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

11/21/09 11:47:26 PM#95
Originally posted by girlgeek
Originally posted by Elikal
Originally posted by chess912

The author is so stupid mindless. Some of the GREAT WESTERNERS always think they know everything about others even if they never speak those languages. The entire aritcal is a fallacy. If you are not, plz go talk to them and then take your shyt.  The GREAT FIREWALL? Oh yes, if i type fuck you, if it not banned, ok it is great firewall, if it is, then i can call you THE GREAT FUCKERWALL.

No western MMOs can live in China but WOW, the asian games on mmorpg.com, 95% has already died out in asia, but idk why some westerners still playing.

 

I am a Westerner, but I am with you in this. Critizise USA and you get a ban faster than you can say "Gesundheit".

 

 It's not "criticizing" the U.S.  that will get you banned. It's racism and direct personal insults. Nationalism, in an extreme form, as you, a German, should know....can easily be considered a type of racism.

 

Now the part of your "argument" that was flawed (in your post BEFORE the one I quoted here) is in your comparing McDonald's (or whatever) having stores overseas, to Chinese (or any other nationality) gold farmers here in games that people in the U.S. might play. The big difference with THAT....is that gold farming is illegal.  It doesn't matter HOW you try to twist it. It's against the law, it's against the legal agreements you sign when you log in to a game. Yes, I know....no one seems to care about that fact, but...it IS a fact.

 

You cannot sell something that doesn't belong to you. You cannot sell (nor buy) game gold LEGALLY, unless you are buying it from the company that makes the game. It is a virtual item, a graphic, coding, that belongs to THEM, not you. So for you to compare LEGALLY selling hamburgers from the U.S. to China and China ILLEGALLY selling gold that doesn't belong to them to SELL......apples and oranges.

 

But I have a feeling that anything anyone from the U.S. says to you, will just be considered garbage, since your hatred for the U.S. citizens seems to roll out of your pores. And yet you....speak of all this good morality, peace, kindness, goodness, and that's how to change the world....

 

Okay.  How about you can start with your own intolerance? Novel concept, I'm sure.

 

I attack Germany just the same. I am not picky in my attacks, hence it may be nasty, but it were only racist if I see America worse, which I don't. Only every nation has a different kind of stupidity. And in the essence, the more powerful a nation is, the more opportunity to do bad arises.

The differences is, Germany has refined the art of self-whipping for every damn thing in 2000 years, while some nations are entirely oblivious to their deeds. Maybe ask some native Americans how they feel about this, ja ne? Just an idea.

I have seen really ugly posts about French, Chinese or whoever here and none of them were ever banned for racism. Go figure. I mean, just go into any international MMO beta and type something in French. Just for the experience.

You really are an odd people. One can call Obama a Nazi or the next Hitler in USA because he wants health care for all, and it's freedom of speech. One can demand gays be castrated or put in Concentration Camps, and its freedom of speech. (Hate radios, you know.) But God forbid I say, maybe some things Americans practice is hypocrise.

As for the argument: if I pay a chinese to sell me gold, I am not paying the gold, because gold in a MMO is nothing. I pay his work time. Thats something different. Its as if I would call my sister, tell her to play my EQ character for 1 week and make some money and XP and then pay her 20 Euro. I pay her time, which is her's to give, not that of a game company. I still find it would be odd or silly. Either you have fun playing a MMO or not, but it's not morally evil. When I am rich and collect train models, I have 2000 train models while you being poor have only 2. Is that fair? No it isn't, but due to Capitalism it isn't evil. I worked for the money and I can spent it as ever I wish. (I am poor, just for the record.)

I could not care less if RMT is legal or not, but it is hyppocrisy to support free market when it suits you and condemn it when it doesn't. I will brand every hyppocrisy no matter from whence it comes.

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  Gyrus

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/20/07
Posts: 2323

11/22/09 1:35:29 AM#96
Originally posted by h8erberry

Stolen Credit Cards?

 

This excuse is getting really tired. I am sure a stolen credit card was used once to scam an MMO account but it is not nearly the problem Scott would have us believe. This kind of stuff is just BS excuse that makes us lose focus of the real problem.

Banks track all charge backs. Most business have less than %1 charge backs. If you go over that limit your business and practices will come under scrutiny. If MMOS were such a problem then Credit Card Companies would have already started limiting our ability to use them to pay for these transactions. This is not a problem.

 

As I said earlier - if the Merchant follows the authorisation steps set out by the Credit Card Association then they would not be harmed by chargebacks on 'stolen' and fraudulent CC transactions.

What is happening is that the MMO companies are banning the goldfarmer and the goldfarmer is then asking for a chargeback on the (valid) CC on the grounds that the merchant is not providing the service which was payed for.  Under those circumstances a chargeback IS JUSTIFIED because the MMO company has done the wrong thing.

Try restricting the chat function and player to player trade function while leaving the account active.  That way a charge back is NOT JUSTIFIED and the goldfarmer will have to pay the sub fee which will eat into his / her / their profit.

Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  Superman0X

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/28/06
Posts: 988

11/22/09 1:53:06 AM#97
Originally posted by Gyrus
Originally posted by h8erberry

Stolen Credit Cards?

 

This excuse is getting really tired. I am sure a stolen credit card was used once to scam an MMO account but it is not nearly the problem Scott would have us believe. This kind of stuff is just BS excuse that makes us lose focus of the real problem.

Banks track all charge backs. Most business have less than %1 charge backs. If you go over that limit your business and practices will come under scrutiny. If MMOS were such a problem then Credit Card Companies would have already started limiting our ability to use them to pay for these transactions. This is not a problem.

 

As I said earlier - if the Merchant follows the authorisation steps set out by the Credit Card Association then they would not be harmed by chargebacks on 'stolen' and fraudulent CC transactions.

What is happening is that the MMO companies are banning the goldfarmer and the goldfarmer is then asking for a chargeback on the (valid) CC on the grounds that the merchant is not providing the service which was payed for.  Under those circumstances a chargeback IS JUSTIFIED because the MMO company has done the wrong thing.

Try restricting the chat function and player to player trade function while leaving the account active.  That way a charge back is NOT JUSTIFIED and the goldfarmer will have to pay the sub fee which will eat into his / her / their profit.

 

The use of stolen credit cards is very common in the online gaming industry. It is way above the standard 1%.

There is a very simple reason why banks dont care... they get their money back. The MMO has to eat the cost, not the bank.

As for the MMO causing the chargeback, that isnt true either. Stolen credit cards can be obtained for less than $1, but are only good for ~3-5 days. After that the online company is informed that the card has been reported stolen. Companies that only do monthly charges do not normally catch this until the next re-occuring charge. Dont believe me? Charge a montly fee on a card, then call it in to your bank as stolen. Service will not shut off until the next charge, despite being immediately invalidated.

  Gyrus

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/20/07
Posts: 2323

11/22/09 5:01:39 AM#98
Originally posted by Superman0X
...

The use of stolen credit cards is very common in the online gaming industry. It is way above the standard 1%.

Proof.  Show me a figure.  90% of stats on the internet are made up.

There is a very simple reason why banks dont care... they get their money back. The MMO has to eat the cost, not the bank.

If you read the thread - I did my research on this.  The merchant has a responsibility to carry out certain checks prior to accepting payment from a credit card.  If they carry out those checks (as specified in their agreement) then they will still get payed.

As for the MMO causing the chargeback, that isnt true either. Stolen credit cards can be obtained for less than $1, but are only good for ~3-5 days. After that the online company is informed that the card has been reported stolen. Companies that only do monthly charges do not normally catch this until the next re-occuring charge. Dont believe me? Charge a montly fee on a card, then call it in to your bank as stolen. Service will not shut off until the next charge, despite being immediately invalidated.

You are confusing the provided service with chargebacks with bans with stolen cards with billing cycle here.
All separate issues.

 

Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  just1opinion

Smart-Alek

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 4933

11/22/09 9:01:39 AM#99
Originally posted by Elikal
Originally posted by girlgeek
Originally posted by Elikal
Originally posted by chess912

The author is so stupid mindless. Some of the GREAT WESTERNERS always think they know everything about others even if they never speak those languages. The entire aritcal is a fallacy. If you are not, plz go talk to them and then take your shyt.  The GREAT FIREWALL? Oh yes, if i type fuck you, if it not banned, ok it is great firewall, if it is, then i can call you THE GREAT FUCKERWALL.

No western MMOs can live in China but WOW, the asian games on mmorpg.com, 95% has already died out in asia, but idk why some westerners still playing.

 

I am a Westerner, but I am with you in this. Critizise USA and you get a ban faster than you can say "Gesundheit".

 

 It's not "criticizing" the U.S.  that will get you banned. It's racism and direct personal insults. Nationalism, in an extreme form, as you, a German, should know....can easily be considered a type of racism.

 

Now the part of your "argument" that was flawed (in your post BEFORE the one I quoted here) is in your comparing McDonald's (or whatever) having stores overseas, to Chinese (or any other nationality) gold farmers here in games that people in the U.S. might play. The big difference with THAT....is that gold farming is illegal.  It doesn't matter HOW you try to twist it. It's against the law, it's against the legal agreements you sign when you log in to a game. Yes, I know....no one seems to care about that fact, but...it IS a fact.

 

You cannot sell something that doesn't belong to you. You cannot sell (nor buy) game gold LEGALLY, unless you are buying it from the company that makes the game. It is a virtual item, a graphic, coding, that belongs to THEM, not you. So for you to compare LEGALLY selling hamburgers from the U.S. to China and China ILLEGALLY selling gold that doesn't belong to them to SELL......apples and oranges.

 

But I have a feeling that anything anyone from the U.S. says to you, will just be considered garbage, since your hatred for the U.S. citizens seems to roll out of your pores. And yet you....speak of all this good morality, peace, kindness, goodness, and that's how to change the world....

 

Okay.  How about you can start with your own intolerance? Novel concept, I'm sure.

 

I attack Germany just the same. I am not picky in my attacks, hence it may be nasty, but it were only racist if I see America worse, which I don't. Only every nation has a different kind of stupidity. And in the essence, the more powerful a nation is, the more opportunity to do bad arises.

I have to 100 percent agree with you on this. And even though I may LIVE in the U.S., that certainly does not mean I agree with or approve of what the government does here....at ALL. Unfortunately, the most I can really do about that is talk to my state representatives and make my voice "heard" with my vote. Sadly....that doesn't seem to be enough. Either enough people don't do it, or don't care. I think apathy is the greatest failure of most citizens in most nations.

The differences is, Germany has refined the art of self-whipping for every damn thing in 2000 years, while some nations are entirely oblivious to their deeds. Maybe ask some native Americans how they feel about this, ja ne? Just an idea.

I have seen really ugly posts about French, Chinese or whoever here and none of them were ever banned for racism. Go figure. I mean, just go into any international MMO beta and type something in French. Just for the experience.

You really are an odd people. One can call Obama a Nazi or the next Hitler in USA because he wants health care for all, and it's freedom of speech. One can demand gays be castrated or put in Concentration Camps, and its freedom of speech. (Hate radios, you know.) But God forbid I say, maybe some things Americans practice is hypocrise.

Now you see, you can't legitimately lump the entire citizenship of the U.S. into this category, any more than people can lump all Germans into one category. I, myself, believe that freedom of speech, per se, has a price. It's not hate "speech" that bothers me, it's hate ACTIONS that are often precipitated BY allowing "free" speech. Nonetheless, the price of that "freedom" has to be weighed. Is it more detrimental to have free speech or to restrict people? I don't have the answer to that. By the way....not all U.S. citizens CLAIM to "know everything." I think a lot of us are very comfortable saying we do NOT know the answers. 

Hypocrisy is rampant in EVERY nation and....dare I say....every religion. It is, sadly, a human epidemic.

As for the argument: if I pay a chinese to sell me gold, I am not paying the gold, because gold in a MMO is nothing. I pay his work time. Thats something different. Its as if I would call my sister, tell her to play my EQ character for 1 week and make some money and XP and then pay her 20 Euro. I pay her time, which is her's to give, not that of a game company. I still find it would be odd or silly. Either you have fun playing a MMO or not, but it's not morally evil. When I am rich and collect train models, I have 2000 train models while you being poor have only 2. Is that fair? No it isn't, but due to Capitalism it isn't evil. I worked for the money and I can spent it as ever I wish. (I am poor, just for the record.)

completely understand this train of thought on the matter. However, it doesn't change the legal position that the game developers take. They outline their position on it very well in the ToS and EULA of every game, and in most games, you still sign a contract to not "sell" their intellectual property. Yeah, I know....most people completely ignore, or don't even READ, things they sign, particularly in games.

I could not care less if RMT is legal or not, but it is hyppocrisy to support free market when it suits you and condemn it when it doesn't. I will brand every hyppocrisy no matter from whence it comes.

 

Well, personally, I don't "support free market when it suits me and condemn it when it doesn't." I support free market when it is LEGAL. That's another thing entirely. If we don't LIKE the laws of our land (regardless of where we live)....if we have the right, as in a democracy, to try to CHANGE the law....then THAT is what we should be doing. Not breaking it, just because we don't "like" it.

I agree with you on a good deal of what you say. You're obviously very bright, which is refreshing. I think our major point of disagreement is on how we perceive gold buying and selling (which is the thread topic). ;)  You seem to see it as "free market" and selling ones' time. I see it as breaking the law for ones' own personal benefit. And, to me....if a law seems wrong to me, and I happen to  live in a nation that allows me to speak openly and try to bring forth change....then THAT is what I should do....not just BREAK the law because I don't approve of it.  Does that make sense?

Anyway....thank you for the discussion. :)

And on the gold buying and selling thing....just as with any OTHER crime, particularly theft....if there is no demand for the "goods" then the "market" will eventually cease to exist. So the buyers are EVERY bit as accountable as the sellers, in my opinion. To ME....the hypocrisy on THIS ISSUE exists where people complain about the gold spammers, but then turn around and use their power leveling services or buy gold from them ANYWAY.  THAT....is hypocritical.

President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club

  Gyrus

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/20/07
Posts: 2323

11/22/09 9:11:23 AM#100

Excuse me?

But since when is Goldfarming a crime?

In what countries and under what laws?

Edit:  Breaching a contract (EULA / ToS) is not actually a crime - it is a beach of contract.

Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

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