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News & Features Discussion  » General: Jennings: Real Money, Real Problems

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161 posts found
  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

11/19/09 2:17:06 PM#61

One person said make it so gold isn't everything. Gold isn't everything but rare/unique items are and in game those are obtained by gold.

 

Even making gold easy to get doesn't help because it just causes inflation. The only way for that solution to work is for there to not be a single rare/unique item in game and all items are fairly easy to get. But then part of what makes the game fun is lost.

 

 

And for the person who said that them buying gold was none of my business, guess what it is. It ends up effecting the game for me and other players that follow the rules. Limitations are put on characters in game to combat something we don't participate in. We have to read spam on gold selling even though we don't buy. We end up fighting against characters who have every top item in the game because they bought it and now the fight will never be fair again.

 

Your lazy self having to buy gold to feel special affects everyone who plays by the rules, so it is everyone's business.

 

  Ozmodan

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 6813

11/19/09 3:00:28 PM#62

Well I wish you luck Lum.  Seems a bit late for NCSoft to look at this matter.  All their games have been plagued by this problem for some time.   All of us have been posting about this since Aion was announced, yet they launched the game with very little thought to this problem.

Hopefully you can bring some sort of resolution to this that NCSoft has been unable to fix up to now.

  squalleitor

Novice Member

Joined: 10/20/04
Posts: 17

11/19/09 3:00:59 PM#63

I believe that the PLEX system used in Eve Online its a good alternative, already proven it has discouraged a lot the farming for "gold", where if someone wants to buy "gold" can cash it through the proper channels, some of this was mentioned in this article, basically i would call it "if you cant defeat them, join them", the eve-economy continues as normal, the PLEX system havent affected or trashed the market, it just became an additional option for those that wants money now!

  User Deleted
11/19/09 5:16:22 PM#64

"People who buy gold are no different from people who buy bowling trophies and get their names etched on them, or people who get mail-order diplomas from non-existent schools. They're people who want to claim achievements that they have not earned, and, at the heart of it, the root of all evil is the desire for the unearned."

How is farming gold an achievement to strive for? I guess that's where one of the lines are drawn on people's opinion's of games. To me, the achievement is beating a boss or owning some guy of the opposing faction.  You do these things with skill/knowledge of game mechanics. The gold to pay for the gear to do those things is a means to that end and its laughable to claim that it is, in fact, the end unto itself. Every word that came out of your keyboard perfectly sums up my belief that you are jealous. Do you think a man that owns a business and uses his money to get other people to do the work for him thus increasing his profits is cheating? I guess when I pay the neighbor's 12 yo to mow my lawn, I'm also cheating. 

Your analogy is flawed in every way. Buying gold to get gear to be competitive would be like paying a guy for better bowling gear, driving me to the lanes in a limo and filling out my score card leaving me more time to concentrate on owning my opponent.  You are the guy who rents his two dollar shoes, uses the dinged up house ball and cries no fair when I roll a 276 and make off with the real trophy. If it helps you to sleep better thinking I cheat then so be it. 

 

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

11/19/09 5:26:20 PM#65
Originally posted by hogscraper

"People who buy gold are no different from people who buy bowling trophies and get their names etched on them, or people who get mail-order diplomas from non-existent schools. They're people who want to claim achievements that they have not earned, and, at the heart of it, the root of all evil is the desire for the unearned."

How is farming gold an achievement to strive for? I guess that's where one of the lines are drawn on people's opinion's of games. To me, the achievement is beating a boss or owning some guy of the opposing faction.  You do these things with skill/knowledge of game mechanics. The gold to pay for the gear to do those things is a means to that end and its laughable to claim that it is, in fact, the end unto itself. Every word that came out of your keyboard perfectly sums up my belief that you are jealous. Do you think a man that owns a business and uses his money to get other people to do the work for him thus increasing his profits is cheating? I guess when I pay the neighbor's 12 yo to mow my lawn, I'm also cheating. 

Your analogy is flawed in every way. Buying gold to get gear to be competitive would be like paying a guy for better bowling gear, driving me to the lanes in a limo and filling out my score card leaving me more time to concentrate on owning my opponent.  You are the guy who rents his two dollar shoes, uses the dinged up house ball and cries no fair when I roll a 276 and make off with the real trophy. If it helps you to sleep better thinking I cheat then so be it. 

 


 

I think you are the one who is logically flawed.

 

All of your examples are legal options. Buying gold is against the rules of the game that you agreed to. So all of your examples are wrong.

  melwe

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/07
Posts: 79

11/19/09 6:24:55 PM#66

Great article Scott.  So very true about all aspects.  As an active Aion player, I hope you are able to make leaps and bounds against all the counterfeit.  One thing I'll ask you to look at is the ease of macro creation for certain tasks.  From what people call 'macro grinding' or 'afk grinding' is allowing even everyday gamers to implement these methods.

I also made a suggestion on Aionsource.com but it seems that the over anxious moderators deleted my thread.  What about taking away kinah from these accounts, as you catch these accounts... storing it legitimately and distributing the kinah to the player base via veteran award system.  If NCSoft is giving away their work/product for free you take away their market.  The harder they work to keep their stocks open, the bigger chance you will find them, and people won't be as inclined to buy if its coming via 'veteran awards' every month.  I"m sure the amount of kinah will decrease over time.  I know this is a stretch, but just an idea I had while brainstorming 'what would I do'.  It awards the legit player base.

Another thing that is upsetting in Aion is the frequency and population of 'private store' sales for these websites selling kinah and powerleveling. People really feel that there are no GMs on a realm.  In Panda alone on this past sunday there were 7 sales ads right outside the broker/bank area... there is usually 2-5 ads in Morheim.  They are constantly the same websites.  I know the IPs used are not from those websites, but just frustrating.

Good luck to you, I'd love to chat sometime for you to hear more of my thoughts and others I talk to about it.

 

  icemanatee

Novice Member

Joined: 1/04/07
Posts: 68

11/19/09 7:34:38 PM#67

Reading this thread has brought a scenario to my attention:

Lets say you have one million players in a given game paying a $15/month fee and you were the CEO that had the ability to make any decisions happen. Lets also say 100,000 players were paying accounts to be gold farmers/botters/RMTers. Would you ban 100,000 accounts and lose the dollars?

By banning 100,00 accounts, you would gaurantee yourself a loss of 1.5 million dollars for the month. Do you think as a CEO the positives would outweigh the negatives? Sure, we will have 900,000 players who play fair and normally happy, but the company itself would loses 1.5 million dollars.

What do you all think?

  cosy

Newshound

Joined: 9/15/04
Posts: 3306

EvE Rules #491 you should never, ever attack Russians on winter months

11/19/09 7:38:34 PM#68

PD:EvEisNot4WoWkids
BestSigEver :P

  bigtime102

Novice Member

Joined: 9/18/05
Posts: 174

11/19/09 7:45:19 PM#69

He's wrong. Game comapnies are in on it, and theres devs that will tell you this. He's just not in the loop so the company line is they're against it.

  zymurgeist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5212

11/19/09 7:49:55 PM#70
Originally posted by jeffxsee

Reading this thread has brought a scenario to my attention:

Lets say you have one million players in a given game paying a $15/month fee and you were the CEO that had the ability to make any decisions happen. Lets also say 100,000 players were paying accounts to be gold farmers/botters/RMTers. Would you ban 100,000 accounts and lose the dollars?

By banning 100,00 accounts, you would gaurantee yourself a loss of 1.5 million dollars for the month. Do you think as a CEO the positives would outweigh the negatives? Sure, we will have 900,000 players who play fair and normally happy, but the company itself would loses 1.5 million dollars.

What do you all think?


 

I think you wouldn't have 900,000 players who play fair and are normally happy for long. I'd also be more worried about losing the players who pay for their accounts with something other than stolen credit cards.

"Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  bigtime102

Novice Member

Joined: 9/18/05
Posts: 174

11/19/09 7:52:23 PM#71


Originally posted by jeffxsee
Reading this thread has brought a scenario to my attention:

Lets say you have one million players in a given game paying a $15/month fee and you were the CEO that had the ability to make any decisions happen. Lets also say 100,000 players were paying accounts to be gold farmers/botters/RMTers. Would you ban 100,000 accounts and lose the dollars?

By banning 100,00 accounts, you would gaurantee yourself a loss of 1.5 million dollars for the month. Do you think as a CEO the positives would outweigh the negatives? Sure, we will have 900,000 players who play fair and normally happy, but the company itself would loses 1.5 million dollars.

What do you all think?



What they do is ban them, and then the farmers buy another account. Thats hows the devs get money out of gold selling. They ban the account after a certain amount of time, letting the farmer guy know before hand. He buys another acount as a fee to farm more. If your not on their list of perfered farmers your just banned outright. This is how a former dev at guild wars said it worked anyway, and is why they made an online store to buy the game. So when the farmers rebought accounts they bought from the game company online not at bestbuy. Im sure other mmo's just sell gold outright, just enough not to braek the game and ban any other farmers because they take away from their gold selling profits. Why wouldnt they?

  icemanatee

Novice Member

Joined: 1/04/07
Posts: 68

11/19/09 7:56:06 PM#72
Originally posted by bigtime102

 


Originally posted by jeffxsee
Reading this thread has brought a scenario to my attention:

 

Lets say you have one million players in a given game paying a $15/month fee and you were the CEO that had the ability to make any decisions happen. Lets also say 100,000 players were paying accounts to be gold farmers/botters/RMTers. Would you ban 100,000 accounts and lose the dollars?

By banning 100,00 accounts, you would gaurantee yourself a loss of 1.5 million dollars for the month. Do you think as a CEO the positives would outweigh the negatives? Sure, we will have 900,000 players who play fair and normally happy, but the company itself would loses 1.5 million dollars.

What do you all think?


 


What they do is ban them, and then the farmers buy another account. Thats hows the devs get money out of gold selling. They ban the account after a certain amount of time, letting the farmer guy know before hand. He buys another acount as a fee to farm more. If your not on their list of perfered farmers your just banned outright. This is how a former dev at guild wars said it worked anyway, and is why they made an online store to buy the game. So when the farmers rebought accounts they bought from the game company online not at bestbuy. Im sure other mmo's just sell gold outright, just enough not to braek the game and ban any other farmers because they take away from their gold selling profits. Why wouldnt they?



Sounds like double dipping...not bad for a company I suppose.
 

  Gyrus

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/20/07
Posts: 2324

11/19/09 7:57:15 PM#73
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

One person said make it so gold isn't everything. Gold isn't everything but rare/unique items are and in game those are obtained by gold.

 ...  

 

I suggest you play DDO and learn a bit about how the 'Favor' system works in that game for example.
There are things that you can only get through having the right amount of favor with certain factions.  These things are unique (bound) to your character and cannot be traded.  Favor is not something you can brought, sold or traded.  It must be earned.  It must be earned by playing the game which in many cases involves grouping and being social.

There are other things you can / could do too.  You could have bonuses only availale to people based on time in game, time in a guild, explorations made, friends made etc.

To simply think of MMO gaming as simply a series of tasks to earn 'items' is a bit sad.
If what defines your MMO is simply the rare items then the design team have done a poor job.

Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  icemanatee

Novice Member

Joined: 1/04/07
Posts: 68

11/19/09 8:05:04 PM#74
Originally posted by Gyrus
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

One person said make it so gold isn't everything. Gold isn't everything but rare/unique items are and in game those are obtained by gold.

 ...  

 

I suggest you play DDO and learn a bit about how the 'Favor' system works in that game for example.
There are things that you can only get through having the right amount of favor with certain factions.  These things are unique (bound) to your character and cannot be traded.  Favor is not something you can brought, sold or traded.  It must be earned.  It must be earned by playing the game which in many cases involves grouping and being social.

There are other things you can / could do too.  You could have bonuses only availale to people based on time in game, time in a guild, explorations made, friends made etc.

To simply think of MMO gaming as simply a series of tasks to earn 'items' is a bit sad.
If what defines your MMO is simply the rare items then the design team have done a poor job.

Out of curiousity and since I haven't played DDO, would it ever be possible to catch up to a veteran player who has high favor? I'm assuming the veteran player has time on his side since he started earlier. I'm guessing the new player through this particular system will never be able to catch up in terms of favor if both the veteran and new beginner is playing the same amount of time?


 

  Gyrus

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/20/07
Posts: 2324

11/19/09 8:31:31 PM#75
Originally posted by jeffxsee

Out of curiousity and since I haven't played DDO, would it ever be possible to catch up to a veteran player who has high favor? I'm assuming the veteran player has time on his side since he started earlier. I'm guessing the new player through this particular system will never be able to catch up in terms of favor if both the veteran and new beginner is playing the same amount of time?

Yes. Favour is capped.  You earn so much favor per quest.  The people you can't keep up with are the players who pay for content you haven't payed for.  But that's fair because that is their revenue model.

Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  gunweapon123

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/16/09
Posts: 11

11/20/09 1:22:46 AM#76

ok so instead of doing something about the gold seller try doing something about the buyer. the gold buyer are the fuel the gold seller needs to keep on running. so instead of banning gold seller who will always come back try banning gold buyer. they buy gold because they want to have the good game equipment to be leet so they will make a big deal if they get ban. once they do they'll learn their lesson

  User Deleted
11/20/09 1:44:43 AM#77
Originally posted by Player_420

I thik the first step to combating this problem is simple: Transaction regulations on box sales.

My point is that someone is buying all these accts, and you bet the company can track down certain sales and where they originate, and if they cant that seems pretty silly to me.

 

At the rate they go through subs, I highly doubt any of the farmers are buying boxes. They can purchase 50 digital download keys with the CC info they just got from the idiot that bought gold from them in the time it takes to run down the block and buy the three copies (if that many) of the game sitting on a brick and mortar's shelf.

 

  alkarionlog

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/09
Posts: 1078

11/20/09 8:43:24 AM#78
Originally posted by hogscraper

"People who buy gold are no different from people who buy bowling trophies and get their names etched on them, or people who get mail-order diplomas from non-existent schools. They're people who want to claim achievements that they have not earned, and, at the heart of it, the root of all evil is the desire for the unearned."

How is farming gold an achievement to strive for? I guess that's where one of the lines are drawn on people's opinion's of games. To me, the achievement is beating a boss or owning some guy of the opposing faction.  You do these things with skill/knowledge of game mechanics. The gold to pay for the gear to do those things is a means to that end and its laughable to claim that it is, in fact, the end unto itself. Every word that came out of your keyboard perfectly sums up my belief that you are jealous. Do you think a man that owns a business and uses his money to get other people to do the work for him thus increasing his profits is cheating? I guess when I pay the neighbor's 12 yo to mow my lawn, I'm also cheating. 

Your analogy is flawed in every way. Buying gold to get gear to be competitive would be like paying a guy for better bowling gear, driving me to the lanes in a limo and filling out my score card leaving me more time to concentrate on owning my opponent.  You are the guy who rents his two dollar shoes, uses the dinged up house ball and cries no fair when I roll a 276 and make off with the real trophy. If it helps you to sleep better thinking I cheat then so be it. 

 

ok if you think buying gold is fine, gonna say this

buying gold in a game, is the same as paying the referee in a game to steal for you, its the same was paying to buy cards during a poker game, or paying a kid to see what the other players cards are, its cheating if you excuse to buy gold or any other "service" the gold farmer do is because you have a life, then I ask, why you play? what motive you have to play if you don't have time to do it?

you mix up services or jobs with cheating, jsut because of that its make your character be duvidous (to say the least) anyone who steal or cheat can't be trusted and if you can't be trusted I don't make deals or help you, and if you think "I don't need help I have money I can pay someone to help me", remember dude someday you will not have money to pay for it because you used all of it to make enemys on that time you will fall

FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.

  IAmMMO

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/17/08
Posts: 1326

11/20/09 11:45:11 AM#79

 Just goes to show, MMO companies should put a lot more effort going after the buyers and making big examples of those caught. It's these turds who causing this.

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

11/20/09 11:53:12 AM#80
Originally posted by Gyrus
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

One person said make it so gold isn't everything. Gold isn't everything but rare/unique items are and in game those are obtained by gold.

 ...  

 

I suggest you play DDO and learn a bit about how the 'Favor' system works in that game for example.
There are things that you can only get through having the right amount of favor with certain factions.  These things are unique (bound) to your character and cannot be traded.  Favor is not something you can brought, sold or traded.  It must be earned.  It must be earned by playing the game which in many cases involves grouping and being social.

There are other things you can / could do too.  You could have bonuses only availale to people based on time in game, time in a guild, explorations made, friends made etc.

To simply think of MMO gaming as simply a series of tasks to earn 'items' is a bit sad.
If what defines your MMO is simply the rare items then the design team have done a poor job.


 

I've played DDO, never found it that interesting.

 

Thing is that sure it's fine with having character bonuses that stem from how many quests you've run. But that still doesn't make your character unique because everyone ends up with them. People like making their character unique and special in a world of hundreds of thousands of players if not a game of millions. The only way this can be accomplished is through rare/unique items which is one of the smart moves that WoW has always done, and part of the reason they are so far ahead of every other game subscriber wise.

 

Games get boring when everyone is the same, and it's a major problem in MMOs. You either have a class system so there's the 20-30 combinations of classes and races that the million players all use so everyone is the same. Or there is a skill tree and it still boils down to a set number of combinations that gets repeated over and over and over. Unique titles/items are the only way in current games to make your character different. And that fuels the gold buying and selling to another level.

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