Second Life definitely has changed a lot over the years I've been playing it. The thing that makes Second Life so dynamic is that the many zones are built and designed by players themselves. So things are constantly changing, improving, there are unique themes for the holidays, etc etc. But it's not as structured as something like Wurm Online or Eve Online.

Originally posted by Scottc

Originally posted by TheHatter

Well, they were promising more events and they do have the mechanics to do anything they want to the game built in. I didn't play Alpha, but there was a gun in Alpha where you could dig holes, but they took it out because it was OP.

They also built the game around a lvl cap of 150, when they launched with a level cap of 45 and they were saying that they already had S4 and S5 done, but weren't going to release it for at least a few months. Each sector planned, will add 15 lvls to the cap.

Since it's a one world game and the devs love their game and have absolute god power over it, that's why I said it's the only thing similar.They were also PROMISING player housing. One of the GMs is was a dev for SWG and the screaming for player housing was very very strong on the forums and I think the devs really saw that as a need that had to be done.

I'm not really asking about new zones, I'm asking about the existing areas changing through the course of the game, and even new content being added to existing areas.

I played Fallen Earth through alpha, beta, and release. Existing areas changing throughout the course of the game definitely does not happen.

Like many others who have posted in this thread, Ryzom is the only game that I've played that comes close to fitting your description in the oringinal post.

Originally posted by Persephassa

Second Life definitely has changed a lot over the years I've been playing it. The thing that makes Second Life so dynamic is that the many zones are built and designed by players themselves. So things are constantly changing, improving, there are unique themes for the holidays, etc etc. But it's not as structured as something like Wurm Online or Eve Online.

And here we have the other side of the coin.  This is also very true, and is why I still play SL (been playing since late 2004) 

Darkfall is trying to build up a living, breathing world. Aside from the changing of hands in keeps and cities, the upcoming expansion is set to bring in wildlife to make the world a little less desolate.

Mortal Online is also looking into this, partially in the sense that certain monsters will not respawn: For example, towns start talking about rumors of an ancient dragon that lives up in the mountains. Players go and find the dragon, kill it, and it doesn't respawn. They have a unique experience, and potentially gain some unique rewards.

Originally posted by Korhindi

Originally posted by Persephassa

Second Life definitely has changed a lot over the years I've been playing it. The thing that makes Second Life so dynamic is that the many zones are built and designed by players themselves. So things are constantly changing, improving, there are unique themes for the holidays, etc etc. But it's not as structured as something like Wurm Online or Eve Online.

 

And here we have the other side of the coin.  This is also very true, and is why I still play SL (been playing since late 2004) 

SL was so... blah to me. I tried it once, I didn't really get the appeal and logged / uninstalled.

Originally posted by Omali

Darkfall is trying to build up a living, breathing world. Aside from the changing of hands in keeps and cities, the upcoming expansion is set to bring in wildlife to make the world a little less desolate.

Mortal Online is also looking into this, partially in the sense that certain monsters will not respawn: For example, towns start talking about rumors of an ancient dragon that lives up in the mountains. Players go and find the dragon, kill it, and it doesn't respawn. They have a unique experience, and potentially gain some unique rewards.

Intriguing.

In the case of the Dragon, what do they replace it with once it is gone?  Is the dragon a free, roaming entity that is not attached to quests or is it part of the lore?

Just curious as to how they are doing this, while giving those who come after the dragon is slain new goals to attain.

Originally posted by Scottc

Aside from Asheron's Call I mean.  I will use it to provide an example for what I mean.  In Asheron's Call the world changed quite a bit, and I don't mean new areas were added to grind, I mean existing areas changed and updated.  Arwic was a town in Asheron's Call.  It went through several changes, it started as a small quiet open town, and eventually it was destroyed by invading shadow spires, and left an empty smoldering crater, and then it started to get rebuilt over time next to the crater up until it was a fully completed walled in town.  These obviously didn't happen real time (game was released in 99), but with each patch the changes came.  That was just one small example from the game.  The environment changed too, like one month this big demon guy Bael'Zharon got released onto the world and the rivers and ocean turned red, and during the winter the landscape was covered with snow.  Are there any games out there with anything like this? or were there in the past?

I can't really think of one. I'm hoping this is the attitude that Icarus takes with FE with respect to the types of Asheron's Call changes you list. Thanks for the flashbacks, btw! I keep saying the industry (Especially Turbine) could learn alot from how AC played and positively incorporate those lessons into a new MMO.

Originally posted by Omali

Darkfall is trying to build up a living, breathing world. Aside from the changing of hands in keeps and cities, the upcoming expansion is set to bring in wildlife to make the world a little less desolate.

Mortal Online is also looking into this, partially in the sense that certain monsters will not respawn: For example, towns start talking about rumors of an ancient dragon that lives up in the mountains. Players go and find the dragon, kill it, and it doesn't respawn. They have a unique experience, and potentially gain some unique rewards.

I played Darkfall for a few months, I have some minor nostalgia for it, but it seems like it's been destroyed by hacking/exploiting.  The open PvP draws the most undesirable playerbase I've ever seen unfortunately.  The changes they're making with their free "expansion packs" do indeed seem to be going in the right direction though.  I'm keeping my eye on both of those games, but I'm more interested in finding something that's out right now with a good community and a common theme among the game world that abides by the aforementioned mechanics.

Originally posted by Splinki

Originally posted by Korhindi

Originally posted by Persephassa

Second Life definitely has changed a lot over the years I've been playing it. The thing that makes Second Life so dynamic is that the many zones are built and designed by players themselves. So things are constantly changing, improving, there are unique themes for the holidays, etc etc. But it's not as structured as something like Wurm Online or Eve Online.

 

And here we have the other side of the coin.  This is also very true, and is why I still play SL (been playing since late 2004) 

 

SL was so... blah to me. I tried it once, I didn't really get the appeal and logged / uninstalled.

Of all my RL friends that game (which is a lot), myself and my friend's wife are the only one who plays SL.  All the others found it too boring.

I like it because I can make whatever I want from my avi to places to items.

That, and being able to chat and make friends is absolutely vital in SL, for it is the friends that I make in SL that keeps me playing no matter how mad at LL I get or how boring SL can be.

So yes, that is another downside to player made content... what one finds interesting is mind numbingly boring to others.

Originally posted by Korhindi

Originally posted by Splinki

Originally posted by Korhindi

Originally posted by Persephassa

Second Life definitely has changed a lot over the years I've been playing it. The thing that makes Second Life so dynamic is that the many zones are built and designed by players themselves. So things are constantly changing, improving, there are unique themes for the holidays, etc etc. But it's not as structured as something like Wurm Online or Eve Online.

 

And here we have the other side of the coin.  This is also very true, and is why I still play SL (been playing since late 2004) 

 

SL was so... blah to me. I tried it once, I didn't really get the appeal and logged / uninstalled.

 

Of all my RL friends that game (which is a lot), myself and my friend's wife are the only one who plays SL.  All the others found it too boring.

I like it because I can make whatever I want from my avi to places to items.

That, and being able to chat and make friends is absolutely vital in SL, for it is the friends that I make in SL that keeps me playing no matter how mad at LL I get or how boring SL can be.

So yes, that is another downside to player made content... what one finds interesting is mind numbingly boring to others.

I think SL isn't really much of a game so much as a 3D world to socialize in with the ability to build things and script.  One of the big things people look for in gaming is immersion (maybe I'm just speaking for myself here), and that's not really a possibility when you have all manner of theme and setting mashed together into one single world.  I think a little bit of continuity could go a long way.  Also it would help if it were an actual game.

Originally posted by Scottc

Aside from Asheron's Call I mean.  I will use it to provide an example for what I mean.  In Asheron's Call the world changed quite a bit, and I don't mean new areas were added to grind, I mean existing areas changed and updated.  Arwic was a town in Asheron's Call.  It went through several changes, it started as a small quiet open town, and eventually it was destroyed by invading shadow spires, and left an empty smoldering crater, and then it started to get rebuilt over time next to the crater up until it was a fully completed walled in town.  These obviously didn't happen real time (game was released in 99), but with each patch the changes came.  That was just one small example from the game.  The environment changed too, like one month this big demon guy Bael'Zharon got released onto the world and the rivers and ocean turned red, and during the winter the landscape was covered with snow.  Are there any games out there with anything like this? or were there in the past?

I clicked on this thread with the intention of typing pretty much exactly what you did.

AC1 was about as dynamic of a world as developers can get I think. 

Winters, cities being destroyed, cities being randomly attacked by elementals, developer events(and a lot of them), the ability to walk into buildings without having to zone, multitudes of dungeons, epic quests(who could forget Frore or Atlan stones/weapons to name a couple), fluff, magic economy(damage of a spell was dependent on how many were using that spell...more people=less damaging), spell discovery(you had to learn new spells through trial and error of different components), and of course the phenominal lore!

All that coupled with the sandbox, "make your own game" design along with a no classes type of make your own character system made AC1 great IMO.

Man I miss AC.  I'd probably still be playing it had I not moved and something with the way the old AC network protocal works, it doesn't communicate with my new provider so I can't play.  :(

I can only hope one day there is a successor to the original AC.

Originally posted by Scottc

Originally posted by Korhindi

Originally posted by Splinki

Originally posted by Korhindi

Originally posted by Persephassa

Second Life definitely has changed a lot over the years I've been playing it. The thing that makes Second Life so dynamic is that the many zones are built and designed by players themselves. So things are constantly changing, improving, there are unique themes for the holidays, etc etc. But it's not as structured as something like Wurm Online or Eve Online.

 

And here we have the other side of the coin.  This is also very true, and is why I still play SL (been playing since late 2004) 

 

SL was so... blah to me. I tried it once, I didn't really get the appeal and logged / uninstalled.

 

Of all my RL friends that game (which is a lot), myself and my friend's wife are the only one who plays SL.  All the others found it too boring.

I like it because I can make whatever I want from my avi to places to items.

That, and being able to chat and make friends is absolutely vital in SL, for it is the friends that I make in SL that keeps me playing no matter how mad at LL I get or how boring SL can be.

So yes, that is another downside to player made content... what one finds interesting is mind numbingly boring to others.

I think SL isn't really much of a game so much as a 3D world to socialize in with the ability to build things and script.  One of the big things people look for in gaming is immersion (maybe I'm just speaking for myself here), and that's not really a possibility when you have all manner of theme and setting mashed together into one single world.  I think a little bit of continuity could go a long way.  Also it would help if it were an actual game.

Yes, I completely agree with what you said.

SL is very free form and it is very debatable if it qualifies as a "game." 

It has zero immersion on its own, but the sims made by the players do have their own immersion.  Some are outstanding and rival anything made by MMO devs.  Ditto on what we can do with our Avis.

I think a MMO that borrows ideas and inspiration from SL's toolbox, but not from its over arching commercial V-world concept, may be something to consider for giving players impact in the MMO settings they play in.

Ryzom has had large events in the past and their results can still be seen in-game. Things like temples, statues, destroyed OPs. I've come across things that look like altars or statues several times in various places around Atys. When I asked my guild leader about them, she said they from before her time and she's been in the game for a few years.

Originally posted by Scottc

Originally posted by Korhindi

Originally posted by Splinki

Originally posted by Korhindi

Originally posted by Persephassa

Second Life definitely has changed a lot over the years I've been playing it. The thing that makes Second Life so dynamic is that the many zones are built and designed by players themselves. So things are constantly changing, improving, there are unique themes for the holidays, etc etc. But it's not as structured as something like Wurm Online or Eve Online.

 

And here we have the other side of the coin.  This is also very true, and is why I still play SL (been playing since late 2004) 

 

SL was so... blah to me. I tried it once, I didn't really get the appeal and logged / uninstalled.

 

Of all my RL friends that game (which is a lot), myself and my friend's wife are the only one who plays SL.  All the others found it too boring.

I like it because I can make whatever I want from my avi to places to items.

That, and being able to chat and make friends is absolutely vital in SL, for it is the friends that I make in SL that keeps me playing no matter how mad at LL I get or how boring SL can be.

So yes, that is another downside to player made content... what one finds interesting is mind numbingly boring to others.

I think SL isn't really much of a game so much as a 3D world to socialize in with the ability to build things and script.  One of the big things people look for in gaming is immersion (maybe I'm just speaking for myself here), and that's not really a possibility when you have all manner of theme and setting mashed together into one single world.  I think a little bit of continuity could go a long way.  Also it would help if it were an actual game.

If it's what some find enjoyable, more power to them.

I'd have to agree though, I don't really think it can be considered a true game as much as a social environment which all games are to an extent.  That is the major focus of SL  though which is not the case for most MMO's.

I'm not knocking SL at all.  Just voicing my perception I guess.  To each their own!

*EDIT*

Heh, am I the only one that see's SL and thinks Shadow Lands from AO?

Originally posted by Scottc

Aside from Asheron's Call I mean.  I will use it to provide an example for what I mean.  In Asheron's Call the world changed quite a bit, and I don't mean new areas were added to grind, I mean existing areas changed and updated.  Arwic was a town in Asheron's Call.  It went through several changes, it started as a small quiet open town, and eventually it was destroyed by invading shadow spires, and left an empty smoldering crater, and then it started to get rebuilt over time next to the crater up until it was a fully completed walled in town.  These obviously didn't happen real time (game was released in 99), but with each patch the changes came.  That was just one small example from the game.  The environment changed too, like one month this big demon guy Bael'Zharon got released onto the world and the rivers and ocean turned red, and during the winter the landscape was covered with snow.  Are there any games out there with anything like this? or were there in the past?

I can't think of a single current MMORPG that offers the type of world-changing events and dynamics that Asheron's Call had.

Now, Saga of Ryzom does have some elements of that.... they have a pretty robust flora and fauna system, with active carnivores and herbivores, changing weather, some other items... but I'm not sure they've ever really had any major world-changing events.

The only other game that had a pretty dynamic system that changed portions of the world was Shadowbane, due to the fact that nearly every city in the game was player/guild owned and the game was driven largely by player politics, trade, and warfare.

Originally posted by dstar.

Ultima Online changed a lot due to housing, player ran towns with shops etc.  Every now and then the devs would destroy a place in the woods.  The way housing worked though kind of made the world dynamic.  Not exactly what you're looking for I know but it's what came to mind.

Since towns, cities and community areas rise and fall based on player patterns and behavior, it does fit what he's looking for. Also, there are times entire cities or areas were radically changed based on players defending or losing it.

A Tale in the Desert is another one.

Shadowbane, to a degree was another.

Horizons used to be.  There were server events that changed the world and wouldn't end until they had another server event.  And most of them were big events like unlocking playable races.  Also the player build towns made different areas of the world more attractive but the game isn't like that anymore.

Originally posted by Scottc

Aside from Asheron's Call I mean.  I will use it to provide an example for what I mean.  In Asheron's Call the world changed quite a bit, and I don't mean new areas were added to grind, I mean existing areas changed and updated.  Arwic was a town in Asheron's Call.  It went through several changes, it started as a small quiet open town, and eventually it was destroyed by invading shadow spires, and left an empty smoldering crater, and then it started to get rebuilt over time next to the crater up until it was a fully completed walled in town.  These obviously didn't happen real time (game was released in 99), but with each patch the changes came.  That was just one small example from the game.  The environment changed too, like one month this big demon guy Bael'Zharon got released onto the world and the rivers and ocean turned red, and during the winter the landscape was covered with snow.  Are there any games out there with anything like this? or were there in the past?

Yes, there was a game like that. It was called Magic of the Gods. I created it. I put it together on a shoestring budget pretty much by myself, but then added another programmer to the development team and at times had help from a few others. It had out of date graphics comparable to EQ1 and had other deficiencies, but it was constantly changing. I proved that it could be done.

It was a living, changing world. That was one of many things I implemented that countless players ask for and other game developers don't deliver. I have 30 years of experience in game design. Most of it is with offline games. That allowed me to see ways to do things that people who only ever develop computer games are unlikely to think of.

The world of Magic of the Gods changed so much that we couldn't keep it online 24/7. But every time it was online, it was different. Many things changed in real time while the game was running. I'm pretty sure that some of what was done there to bring non-player characters to life far exceeds anything that any other game developer has ever done. At least any other that I've heard of. You could carry on real conversations with some of the non-player characters. Say anything to them and they respond appropriately. Not all of them were that developed, but some were. Some of the non-player characters would come to you and initiate conversations related to things you had said to them in previous game sessions.

Trees slowly grew. If you came back to look at a particular tree after years of game time, you would see that it had grown larger. Over decades of game time, you could actually see a tree sprout from a seed, then grow, little by little into a sapling, a small tree, a larger and larger tree until it was huge, then see it die, be reduced to a stump and then even that would rot away. New trees would sprout where they old one had once stood.

Forests slowly spread in areas where conditions were favorable. Forests slowly receded in areas where people were cutting trees for lumber. Animal populations grew or shrank depending on conditions -- especially the amount of hunting by players and non-player characters. Even fish populations changed based on the amount of fishing. Fish populations determined the chances of catching a fish.

To give an example of how the ecosystem worked, I'll use the real example of Worfin Island. It was a large island with very few trees, mostly open terrain. It was inhabited by a settlement of dwarves in one corner of the island and a vast hinterland full of everything from snakes and rats to ogres and dragons. The dragons were only there in the earliest days. After one was killed and others flew away to more remote areas, the ogres were the dominant creature in the hinterlands. Enough time went by and enough new players came in that the idea that there had ever been dragons there became just a legend that only a very few of the original players even remembered. Little by little, the ogres were killed off. When the ogres were gone, the wolf population increased because there were no longer ogres eating them. This only lasted until regular sea travel between Worfin Island and the Kingdom of Stondar began. Then a market for wolf hides and wolf meat developed in Stondar City and players started hunting the wolves of Worfin Island nearly to extinction. The players didn't realize that the wolves normally ate the other small animals on the island and as the wolf population declined, other species, especially rats, increased in numbers. When there was nothing more fierce than wolves and not many of those, settlement on the island increased, but the new settlers were fishermen, not adventurers or hunters and the action shifted to political struggles between the new settlements and the old. Serious adventurers became more interested in exploring new lands and left Worfin Island to traders, crafters, fishermen and a small group of players who established their own kingdom in distant part of Worfin Island previously inhabited only by ogres.

Also, creatures were not supposed to respawn. At first I had technical difficulties implementing this because I was using a cheap game engine that was made for games where everything respawns. My policy that I was trying to implement was that no creature respawns -- ever. New creatures can be born or hatched, but the dead don't come back to life -- at least not without some powerful magic causing it to happen. So if a castle were destroyed or a monster were killed, it could be done only once and it would permanently change the world for all players. In other words, if you killed a dragon it would matter. Considering how powerful they were, it would matter a lot to a lot of people. Not because they would complain that you were "kill-stealing", but because it would make them safer and less likely to suffer the rather extreme consequences of dying in the game. Dragons and ogres and other monsters didn't always stay in their lairs waiting to be killed by players. They sometimes would take the initiative and attack travelers or even attack towns. You could actually kill a monster and be considered a hero by other players for doing so. Not only that, the story of your feat could become a legend that would become part of the game lore and be talked about by players and non-player characters as part of the history of the game world. This happened many times.

You could explore new places that no player had ever seen before. You could create new kinds of magic spells using a magic spell scripting language. You could craft new kinds of items. You could, with enough magic, create new kinds of creatures and even new playable races.

The website which includes screen shots of the game, a wiki of game lore, a forum of player discussions, a strategy guide and a detailed explanation of the magical spell scripting language is still online. Go to www.magicofthegods.com. Yes, it's a pretty crappy website. I chose to put my time into the game first and worry about getting a professional looking website up later.

Magic of the Gods would still be online except that I was using the Realmcrafter game development tools and some things the Realmcrafter people did made their system unusable after a while.

I have made tentative arrangements with a company that has a much better and much more expensive game engine to use their game engine and development tools. Unfortunately, I don't currently have anywhere near enough spare time to devote to game development to resurrect Magic of the Gods or to develop a new game. Nonetheless, I proved that a lot of the concepts that many players beg for such as a living, changeable world, are possible and that a game that does this really will develop a fan base. At some point I will probably get back to this and make a more serious attempt along these lines. It might be to redo Magic of the Gods. It might be a new MMORPG based on Nations and Empires (see www.nationsandempires.com) or it might be a sci-fi MMORPG set in the far future based on an offline role playing game I created. Or maybe something else.

I'd be interested in feedback on all this whether by players or by anyone interested in perhaps being part of a game development team in the future.

While "Love" is decidedly not MASSIVELY multiplayer, it certainly fits the description.

Originally posted by banecrow

Horizons. They had one of the best crafting systems I have ever seen to date in a game. There were areas in the game that could not be reached unless people worked and made them accessable. Give you just one example. An island with lots of resources for harvesting but no one was able to reach it till a bridge was built. These world craftings took a lot of resources but anyone could contribute. You clicked on the item being built and were able to see what was needed for it to be finished and can then give items needed. Some of these items may be raw materials but normally it was crafted items.  Also there were a couple of player races that had events to be able to unlock them and make them playable. 

The main problem with this game was the leveling. The crafting was awsome (I know it is normally reveresed great gameplay sucky crafting) but the open class sytem made grouping unneeded. People would be able to gain levels in any class as they wanted. So take a couple levels of cleric and you no longer needed a dedicated healer in your group, infact you were your own healer/tank/dps with the right class combos. This is what ultimately killed the game imo.

Horizon's as it originally was, was a full, living world that grew on the backs of its player base. All new content was brought out in game over time, either in Gm run live events (massive attacks on major cities over weeks at a time) or crafting to open the new zones. They didn't just plop an expansion on you and *POOF* there is a new zone to play in. You had to find it, then gain access to it, and it took  everyone on the server to help do that. Building tunnels, bridges, even crafting stations, or community fountains all changed the way the world evolved and what was 'available content'. To this day, I have yet to find a game like Horizon's that gives the community the power to literally build their own world, and to take pride in it once they have done so.