I'm personally tired of hearing about this kiddie look thing, okay maybe that's saying a bit much, I'm not actually like raging about it haha.  But I think it shows a lot of ignorance to look at the visuals of this game and immediately dismiss it as "kiddie."  If you were interested in the idea of art, you would understand this is an art style... maybe you don't like it (I didn't at first but I think more recent screens and video have looked a bit better), but the excuse that the art style is aimed at kids is ridiculous.  This is the same backwards thinking that made people think animation in general was ALWAYS a kids thing no matter what.   But I'm sure everyone here knows that animation isn't necessarily kids stuff... and even the stuff aimed at kids can be entertaining on a much wider level... Dexter's Lab, Samurai Jack, Batman: The Animated Series, etc. 

You can apply this to games too.  I often hear this whole deal about cel-shaded being ridiculous, but it's a style decision.  The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker was one of the best in the entire series IMO.  The art direction allowed for the game to appear more like an animated movie, which helped the story along.

I understand the reasons why BioWare chose this style.  Not just because of graphics engine or it's targetting audience (which may not even be the real little kids, what do you know?)  ... I think they did it because they have an art staff on board with a real sense of art and the idea of differentiating themselves from the rest of the pack.

So in short, what I'm just trying to say is... cartoony doesn't = kiddie.  Have an open mind.  I see a lot of WOW haters on here but I'm sure most have played it, I honestly think it has one of the best art directions of any MMO.  It's beautiful.  Not photo real, but I don't NEED something to be photo realistic to be immersive, fun or mature.

I pretty much agree.  There's no reason for a company to dump ton of resources on hyper-realistic graphics that only a minority of player will be able to run.  A more stylized image allows for a game to age better than a game that has the most cutting edge graphics one year only to be put to shame by graphical advancements in a year or two.

Originally posted by nAAtimus

I pretty much agree.  There's no reason for a company to dump ton of resources on hyper-realistic graphics that only a minority of player will be able to run.  A more stylized image allows for a game to age better than a game that has the most cutting edge graphics one year only to be put to shame by graphical advancements in a year or two.

Yes this too is a factor, art direction helps make up for graphical limitations.  Super Mario Galaxy looks as good as it does because of art direction.  Wind Waker looks good because of art direction... I've notice this is a trait with first party Nintendo games.  A lot of people always wonder why Nintendo usually makes the best looking games for their consoles (which are usually limited in their power).

Same basic idea, except the idea is to age better and be more accessible (thus the limitations).  Same reason WOW did it.

I think peoples only real concern is how npcs/players look.  Everything else, from what I seem, seems extremely detailed and very well done.

The humans have very large hands, anime like hairstyles, and the armor looks sort of weird.  I don't mind much, I'll still play it.

your right, it doesnt need photo realism to make it a good game, but 'cartoon' graphics arent to everyones taste, which, considering the graphic detail that is present in modern games these days, makes the choice seem somewhat lazy. Perhaps it is unrealistic to expect halflife2 levels of detail, but imo, such a level of detail would make the game more desireable than the current cartoon graphics.

I didnt like Aion's gameplay and droped the game after 2 weeks of playing but I noticed that they at least did one thing right graphics-wise.

They focused the eye-candy where it matters the most to the players: The character models and animations.

When you do this right the scenery and enviroment can look like something done 15 years ago and players will still like it.

And this is what Aion did.

Simple WoW-like enviroment with flashy colors, but top notch character models and very cool,fast and smooth combat animations.

That's just the right combo for a game that can run on average older gamer`s PC.

Cut back where matters the least, put resources where it matters the most.

Bioware keeps talking about immersion through great story and voiceovers but they seem to fail to realize that for the most part the immersion comes from the avatar for people.

Originally posted by Benjola

Bioware keeps talking about immersion through great story and voiceovers but they seem to fail to realize that for the most part the immersion comes from the avatar for people.

You mean "you" get immersed staring at your toons face all day. See it's not most people. People just like to have a avatar they can look at. Nobody wants an eyesore. So i'll agree avatars matter, but I'll disagree everybody needs it perfect to immerse themselves.

This art does appeal to people, people will like their avatars and some people wont. I hated Aions character creation, I didn't like looking like a Metrosexual, I'd much rather look like a cartoon. See? Preference.

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by Benjola

Bioware keeps talking about immersion through great story and voiceovers but they seem to fail to realize that for the most part the immersion comes from the avatar for people.

You mean "you" get immersed staring at your toons face all day. See it's not most people. People just like to have a avatar they can look at. Nobody wants an eyesore. So i'll agree avatars matter, but I'll disagree everybody needs it perfect to immerse themselves.

This art does appeal to people, people will like their avatars and some people wont. I hated Aions character creation, I didn't like looking like a Metrosexual, I'd much rather look like a cartoon. See? Preference.

Lol.

All of your posts on this forum are silly.

You blindly trying to 'defend" something that can not be defended.

The fanboism in you is much stronger then it's healthy for you.

It approaches obsession.

My advice is to tone down your expectations of TOR or you will end up disapointed and turn from fanboi to troll overnight if there is one single feature that you dont like when it launches.

i know the type and I've seen it happen many times.

I doubt you'll take my advice though heh.

Originally posted by Benjola

Lol.

All of your posts on this forum are silly.

You blindly trying to 'defend" something that can not be defended.

The fanboism in you is much stronger then it's healthy for you.

It approaches obsession.

My advice is to tone down your expectations of TOR or you will end up disapointed and turn from fanboi to troll overnight if there is one single feature that you dont like when it launches.

i know the type and I've seen it happen many times.

I doubt you'll take my advice though heh.

I think he made some sense with that post. 
 

Anyways, as an anime fan I know that cartoons isn't just for kids. Japan can make cartoons for adults as well as kids, while yanks only seems to them for children with some few exceptions (Family guy comes to though).

I am not sure if I will like TORs graphics or not yet, I need a few days gaming to decide that.

I'm sorry to say this OP, but while you do make a good point all of the examples you quote are very much series aimed at kids. Really, you could've tried to come up with something that wasn't on Cartoon Network's kiddie bar to make your point. If you're arguing for nothing being wrong with an adult liking something that was meant for children in the first place, you should have made such your argument.

The Venture Brothers (to quote something from amongst Cartoon Network's adult shows), Satrapi's Persepolis or Otomo's Akira are good examples of animation works directed at adult audiences. 

As for SWTOR the problem is the animation style does resemble that of Cartoon Network's CGI series and movie a bit too much which, while trying somewhat too hard to please the franchise's adult fans, were primarily aimed at children. I personally detest this particular style myself (the wacked out proportion in character models, along with realistic textures and lightning, make for a bad effect) and think the concept of the uncanny valley applies to this work. That the style is ugly is more of a gripe than it being kiddie. I think Bioware has to some extent realized this and are trying to tone it down, but it might be too late. Look at the material released so far, all chars look like bug eyed freaks with an overbite and dirty playdough hair, this is something definitively working against the game. MMO players may not care as much about graphics as players in other genres (WOW sort of proves the point) but ugly chars may be something hard to swallow for some people (yes, me, WOW was already pushing things in that sense).

I hope they do pull their act together in the end but what i've seen so far i don't like.

Originally posted by Benjola

 

Lol.

All of your posts on this forum are silly.

You blindly trying to 'defend" something that can not be defended.

The fanboism in you is much stronger then it's healthy for you.

It approaches obsession.

My advice is to tone down your expectations of TOR or you will end up disapointed and turn from fanboi to troll overnight if there is one single feature that you dont like when it launches.

i know the type and I've seen it happen many times.

I doubt you'll take my advice though heh.

I was agreeing with you moron.

And my expectations with ToR ? I'm still on the fence, I have expressed my concerns. My entire point was not everybody needs an avatar to look like complete eye candy to enjoy a game. Basically, not everybody is you.

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by Benjola

 

Lol.

All of your posts on this forum are silly.

You blindly trying to 'defend" something that can not be defended.

The fanboism in you is much stronger then it's healthy for you.

It approaches obsession.

My advice is to tone down your expectations of TOR or you will end up disapointed and turn from fanboi to troll overnight if there is one single feature that you dont like when it launches.

i know the type and I've seen it happen many times.

I doubt you'll take my advice though heh.

 

I was agreeing with you moron.

And my expectations with ToR ? I'm still on the fence, I have expressed my concerns. My entire point was not everybody needs an avatar to look like complete eye candy to enjoy a game. Basically, not everybody is you.

You were agreeing with me?

Lol.

I'm disapointed with your reply I must say, I was hoping for another wall of text.

~1000 posts in 3 months...dude...seriously...

Originally posted by Benjola

Originally posted by greed0104

Originally posted by Benjola

 

Lol.

All of your posts on this forum are silly.

You blindly trying to 'defend" something that can not be defended.

The fanboism in you is much stronger then it's healthy for you.

It approaches obsession.

My advice is to tone down your expectations of TOR or you will end up disapointed and turn from fanboi to troll overnight if there is one single feature that you dont like when it launches.

i know the type and I've seen it happen many times.

I doubt you'll take my advice though heh.

 

I was agreeing with you moron.

And my expectations with ToR ? I'm still on the fence, I have expressed my concerns. My entire point was not everybody needs an avatar to look like complete eye candy to enjoy a game. Basically, not everybody is you.

 

You were agreeing with me?

Lol.

I'm disapointed with your reply I must say, I was hoping for another wall of text.

~1000 posts in 3 months...dude...seriously...

Oh? Sorry to disappoint.

You're right my post count is pretty insane, business is slow, what can I say?

---

Originally posted by Benjola

---

Originally posted by greed0104

---

Originally posted by Benjola

 
Lol.
All of your posts on this forum are silly.
You blindly trying to 'defend" something that can not be defended.
The fanboism in you is much stronger then it's healthy for you.
It approaches obsession.
My advice is to tone down your expectations of TOR or you will end up disapointed and turn from fanboi to troll overnight if there is one single feature that you dont like when it launches.
i know the type and I've seen it happen many times.
I doubt you'll take my advice though heh.

---

 
I was agreeing with you moron.
And my expectations with ToR ? I'm still on the fence, I have expressed my concerns. My entire point was not everybody needs an avatar to look like complete eye candy to enjoy a game. Basically, not everybody is you.

---

 
You were agreeing with me?
Lol.
I'm disapointed with your reply I must say, I was hoping for another wall of text.
~1000 posts in 3 months...dude...seriously...

---

A Nerd calling another Nerd a Nerd.

NEWS AT 11!

Originally posted by Caleveira

I'm sorry to say this OP, but while you do make a good point all of the examples you quote are very much series aimed at kids. Really, you could've tried to come up with something that wasn't on Cartoon Network's kiddie bar to make your point. If you're arguing for nothing being wrong with an adult liking something that was meant for children in the first place, you should have made such your argument.

The Venture Brothers (to quote something from amongst Cartoon Network's adult shows), Satrapi's Persepolis or Otomo's Akira are good examples of animation works directed at adult audiences. 

As for SWTOR the problem is the animation style does resemble that of Cartoon Network's CGI series and movie a bit too much which, while trying somewhat too hard to please the franchise's adult fans, were primarily aimed at children. I personally detest this particular style myself (the wacked out proportion in character models, along with realistic textures and lightning, make for a bad effect) and think the concept of the uncanny valley applies to this work. That the style is ugly is more of a gripe than it being kiddie. I think Bioware has to some extent realized this and are trying to tone it down, but it might be too late. Look at the material released so far, all chars look like bug eyed freaks with an overbite and dirty playdough hair, this is something definitively working against the game. MMO players may not care as much about graphics as players in other genres (WOW sort of proves the point) but ugly chars may be something hard to swallow for some people (yes, me, WOW was already pushing things in that sense).

I hope they do pull their act together in the end but what i've seen so far i don't like.

See, you weren't paying attention to my post.  I listed examples that WERE targeted at kids, specifically... saying that they're enjoyed by many adults.  The writing in Dexter's Lab is much more clever than you think.  There's a whole episode that creatively tells the story without so much as uttering a single word... all through sound effects.  Samurai Jack's art style has been celebrated by many artists who admire the work and find it beautiful.  Batman The Animated Series is aimed at children but b.s. if you think it can't be enjoyed by someone older.  So while you're laughing at my examples, I'm laughing at you for missing the point.  

Venture Bros. is my favorite show on CN/Adult Swim and yes, I could have named Family Guy and South Park.  My point was even if something animated is aimed at children, the people behind the show and it's writing can aim it at a much more mature audience.  It's called ignorance to judge it without even having tried it.  Of course, some people just don't like the art style, that can't be helped, that opinionated.  My POINT was that it's style doesn't reflect that it's just for children.

... and the uncanny valley problem applies to things that are almost lifelike but lack lifelike qualities.  Like robots made to look just like humans but with movements that aren't fluid and eyes that are "dead."  You could apply it to Jim Carrey's new Christmas Carol movie, saying that although it's almost lifelike, his eyes are soulless... but not here.  MMOS do not have to have ultra realistic graphics to be immersive, or good.  I agree the character models could use a little more work in detail, but I don't think uncanny valley applies to them.

And (addressing a post from earlier) the character models need to look good, but for them to be most important aspect?  Ridiculous they are just as important as the environment you are in.  By the way, I don't think the environments in this game are "realistic."  They are designed in the same style as the characters.. you're just looking at buildings and vehicles and such, but you're still looking at a stylized design.

By the way a bit off topic, I think  the TOR lightsabers were made to be oversized originally so that it would be easier for other players to see what they looked like since you can have custom sabers. 

Originally posted by bleed0range

Originally posted by Caleveira

I'm sorry to say this OP, but while you do make a good point all of the examples you quote are very much series aimed at kids. Really, you could've tried to come up with something that wasn't on Cartoon Network's kiddie bar to make your point. If you're arguing for nothing being wrong with an adult liking something that was meant for children in the first place, you should have made such your argument.

The Venture Brothers (to quote something from amongst Cartoon Network's adult shows), Satrapi's Persepolis or Otomo's Akira are good examples of animation works directed at adult audiences. 

As for SWTOR the problem is the animation style does resemble that of Cartoon Network's CGI series and movie a bit too much which, while trying somewhat too hard to please the franchise's adult fans, were primarily aimed at children. I personally detest this particular style myself (the wacked out proportion in character models, along with realistic textures and lightning, make for a bad effect) and think the concept of the uncanny valley applies to this work. That the style is ugly is more of a gripe than it being kiddie. I think Bioware has to some extent realized this and are trying to tone it down, but it might be too late. Look at the material released so far, all chars look like bug eyed freaks with an overbite and dirty playdough hair, this is something definitively working against the game. MMO players may not care as much about graphics as players in other genres (WOW sort of proves the point) but ugly chars may be something hard to swallow for some people (yes, me, WOW was already pushing things in that sense).

I hope they do pull their act together in the end but what i've seen so far i don't like.

 

See, you weren't paying attention to my post.  I listed examples that WERE targeted at kids, specifically... saying that they're enjoyed by many adults.  The writing in Dexter's Lab is much more clever than you think.  There's a whole episode that creatively tells the story without so much as uttering a single word... all through sound effects.  Samurai Jack's art style has been celebrated by many artists who admire the work and find it beautiful.  Batman The Animated Series is aimed at children but b.s. if you think it can't be enjoyed by someone older.  So while you're laughing at my examples, I'm laughing at you for missing the point.  

Venture Bros. is my favorite show on CN/Adult Swim and yes, I could have named Family Guy and South Park.  My point was even if something animated is aimed at children, the people behind the show and it's writing can aim it at a much more mature audience.  It's called ignorance to judge it without even having tried it.  Of course, some people just don't like the art style, that can't be helped, that opinionated.  My POINT was that it's style doesn't reflect that it's just for children.

 

... and the uncanny valley problem applies to things that are almost lifelike but lack lifelike qualities.  Like robots made to look just like humans but with movements that aren't fluid and eyes that are "dead."  You could apply it to Jim Carrey's new Christmas Carol movie, saying that although it's almost lifelike, his eyes are soulless... but not here.  MMOS do not have to have ultra realistic graphics to be immersive, or good.  I agree the character models could use a little more work in detail, but I don't think uncanny valley applies to them.

And (addressing a post from earlier) the character models need to look good, but for them to be most important aspect?  Ridiculous they are just as important as the environment you are in.  By the way, I don't think the environments in this game are "realistic."  They are designed in the same style as the characters.. you're just looking at buildings and vehicles and such, but you're still looking at a stylized design.

By the way a bit off topic, I think  the TOR lightsabers were made to be oversized originally so that it would be easier for other players to see what they looked like since you can have custom sabers. 

You make some good points, I agree with every word. I've never seen how people can look at cartoon and claim it was for children based upon looks. Being an adult, I still find myself watching cartoon network from time to time.  I'd say cartoons hold no age limit, South Park being a great cartoon for adults, yet plenty teenage kids watch the show due to the immature comedy. So nobody here ever liked a disney movie? One "targeted" at kids?

Shame when people are afraid to enjoy something because they fear it may weaken their manly ego.

Art is in the eyes of the beholder, but Bioware did not choose these graphics because of "art". They're simply picking facets that worked well for other MMORPG's successes. This is strictly business and has nothing to do with "art". In this case, lower quality graphics have a higher probability for more subscribers and also has lower start up costs.

 SWTOR's graphics are disappointing. It's regressive and a decision made solely on the basis of quick profit. This whole made up story about "art" style graphics and having a truly unique art style that makes the game timeless is just manipulative advertising. This so called "art" really has nothing to do with the actual product, but is really something they just put in people's heads. People believe it's "art" because they want to believe it, not because it really is.

Sure, sometimes the "art" styles allow people with aged computers to play, but then there's Aion for example, which has character models that look better than SWTOR's and still runs surprisingly well on most PC's and that was out in Korea over a year ago.

Everquest 2 went for realism in graphics design in 2004. 5 years later, EQ2 still looks better than MMO's that came out after it. Hell, it even looks better than Fallen Earth in my opinion, but I suppose it wouldn't be a fair comparison considering SOE is a behemoth. Today, if you showed someone a screen from WOW and then one from EQ2 and asked them which one they thought has better graphics, most people would choose the latter simply because it doesn't look like a cartoon. That's a +1 as far as quality goes and subsequently helps the longevity of the game. But subscriber numbers are what Bioware is looking after and they want it to be as consumer (or rather computer) friendly as possible. Even if EQ2 had 1 million subscribers currently, that's barely a fraction of the subscribers WOW has and that's the model Bioware is looking at. Obviously, it's not all graphics that keep people playing WOW, but Bioware is going to do whatever will help them make greater profit margins.

In SWTOR, the graphics look like cartoons. I think it's a slap in the face, personally. I'm sure the storyline will be great and the moral choices addicting and everything else Bioware is good at - but really? It's just plain lame.

I hope SWTOR is an excellent game, but I'm skeptical to say the least. And if it's great at first, but numbers are dropping, how much will they change it to attract more consumers at the expense of current subscriber satisfaction? I can only imagine the same grotesque MMORPG cycle here - so is the nature of the beast, I suppose...

I'm kind of curious how one determines what is 'for kids' and what isn't.

---

Originally posted by Fdzzaigl
I'm kind of curious how one determines what is 'for kids' and what isn't.

---

Usually by being a moron. Seems to work best.