I've been playing DDO for a little while (since a couple of months prior to it going F2P), and I really like their loot system there.

Gear only drops in chests. When you click on/open the chest, any items that would appear for you then appear within it (you have to physically click the chest for your items to be spawned into it). You can then loot the items, or, assign the loot rights to any of them to some other group member, even if the item is Bind on Acquire, since Binding doesn't happen until an item is removed from the chest.

I've done quite a few PUG groups and raids and, so far, the looting has been without drama. If an item drops for a player that really wants it, they have it free and clear, it was already assigned to them.  Items that spawn for a player who doesn't want it, or even some players who do spawn an item they want but are willing to put it up for the whole group, get put up for a random roll. Winner gets the item assigned to them.

I think the system works really well.

Worst loot system so far I have seen in a new mmo:

- Aion as everyone can roll for loot and there is only option for roll and cancel and you can roll on items even if you can't use them

Best

- DDO as everyone gets loot and no one is left out

Honorable mentions

- WAR pvp looting is automatic and there is a system where you can set stuff to roll automatically

I'm against the full loot system eg: DFO as well as a trivial death system eg: WoW, EQ2. Something in between would be nice as long as the penalty is not over kill like eg: Tibia has excessive xp loss. But thats for a death system thread discussion.

Originally posted by Kyleran 

But darkness fell over the realm, and the spectre of WOW threw its long shadow over the game.  Pretty soon, dropped loot become more valuable than crafted, at first only from special encounters such as Dragon raids, but after TOA dropped loot became the norm as the superior way to gear and crafted items were added only to maximize your stats in a particular area.

The end of an era it appears, but it is a system I would prefer to see employed again.

 

Drop loot was always better than crafted loot in Everquest.   It was always a pleasure to see a rogue win golden efreeti boots.

I'm not a big fan of crafted gear competing with dropped items in terms of quality.  Nothing trivializes a games content like the ability to go to the auction house and gear up to maximum potential.  I just don't think reducing character advancement to grinding gold is a good system.  Some my enjoy it, but I prefer to venture out and earn my progression through adventuring. 

I don't understand why developers continue to make crafting and adventuring compete for the same item slots.  Either make them work together or make them affect separate areas. 

Originally posted by Harabeck

Why not just have loot not drop for the group as a whole? Leave the loot tables exactly as they are, just separate the players loot from each other. Each mob that dies has a chance of dropping something for me, but if it does, no one else can even see it, and they each get their own loot from the mob.

Contrary to the whining that goes on here, not everyone in wow is a 12 year loot whore out to destroy the entire genre of gaming. I see people pass on loot to pug members all the time and never see any drama over loot.  Overall I have found every pug I play with to be reasonable and drama free.  

 Personally I would rather have the option to pass on something I am not going to use if someone else can use it.  Even if it is leather and they are a plate class.  It isn't like people are going to make a fortune by rolling need on bind on pickup items that sell for 4 gold. 

@Everyone else.

The reason for the revised loot system is that the new dungeon LFG system is cross server.  The typical social norms and ettiquettes are going to vary from server to server.  Yes there will be some people who would enjoy looting everything wihtout fear of their name getting a bad reputation since they are not playing with people from their community.

There is nothing wrong with going into a dungeon with a clear set of loot rules.  The funny thing is that if blizzard didn't do this and the loot system was being abused, I bet we would see many of the same names complaining that blizzard was stupid for not addressing this issue before releasing the new dungeon system, but that is just a hunch.

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by Harabeck

Why not just have loot not drop for the group as a whole? Leave the loot tables exactly as they are, just separate the players loot from each other. Each mob that dies has a chance of dropping something for me, but if it does, no one else can even see it, and they each get their own loot from the mob.

 

Contrary to the whining that goes on here, not everyone in wow is a 12 year loot whore out to destroy the entire genre of gaming. I see people pass on loot to pug members all the time and never see any drama over loot.  Overall I have found every pug I play with to be reasonable and drama free.  

 Personally I would rather have the option to pass on something I am not going to use if someone else can use it.  Even if it is leather and they are a plate class.  It isn't like people are going to make a fortune by rolling need on bind on pickup items that sell for 4 gold. 

 

 

@Everyone else.

The reason for the revised loot system is that the new dungeon LFG system is cross server.  The typical social norms and ettiquettes are going to vary from server to server.  Yes there will be some people who would enjoy looting everything wihtout fear of their name getting a bad reputation since they are not playing with people from their community.

There is nothing wrong with going into a dungeon with a clear set of loot rules.  The funny thing is that if blizzard didn't do this and the loot system was being abused, I bet we would see many of the same names complaining that blizzard was stupid for not addressing this issue before releasing the new dungeon system, but that is just a hunch.

 

 

 

You are right, many of us are quite responsible when it comes to looting; however, I have been the victim of a PUG member screwing me out of gear that I could have really used and their class could not use at all. Worse yet, they would not even trade me now that you can do that. Some people are just going to be a*holes about any system no matter what. It is a shame a few ruin it for all, but that is what has happened.

Who care of Wow's player base is upset.

Originally posted by wrtiii

Easy Solution.

 

Man Up. Stop playing a weak game like WoW.

 

And find yourself something Full Loot, PvP.

 

Someone takes the loot you wanted, you can kill them and take it back... If you can..

 

 

And to the people who don't want to play a PvP game?

I'm not sure what the majority of current mmo players think, but I have a major problem with pvp.

If I'm going to kill someone I'm not going to base it on a dice roll and potential line of sight and gear difference since some twit decided it would be better to ninja loot all the gear, or couldn't hold his own in a dungeon/arena/whatever the game does to give you gear.

Instead I'd rather play a FPS to kill another player, mmo's seem to base everything on mathematics, (rolls, attacks, min/maxing gear and getting people)

So I say to you, man up and stop playing a weak pvp genre like an mmo, but that stil doesn't solve the problem of loot distribution

Loot, is by itself the definition of 'Reward' in 'Risk versus reward'. I think the reason so many players all hunger for that same bone are because of a few distinct reasons not covered here.

First and foremost is luck in general. I've played a lot of MMOs, and generally my luck tends to be really bad. Doesn't matter the class, or other details. My luck is usually 1 good drop per three months of actual game play. I know many others who feel the same way. Yet there are always people who nearly every chest pull something terrific. In this example, a player who tries for a 'cool looking, or useful item' that the developers have taunted us with is just out of reach. Now let's put a lucky character into this party. On the very first chest they've gotten what that players has been working really hard for. Is it fair? Probably not, but as you said, perhaps there's a need before greed mentality. What of the player who got lucky? Here's the problem.

Someone will get rich, often times for very little work, or by using the hard work of others, and someone else is going home mad, doing their best to stay in positive cash flow for trying once again.

Secondly is the the very principal of 'Risk versus reward' used by developers. It seems to be the magic catch phrase everyone uses, even if they don't understand what it means. The idea is fairly simple; X enemies at Y difficulty have Z chance of dropping 'Uber' item. This formula is often rocket-science because the percentage change of getting said loot is usually roughly 5% (not compounded by the fact someone may be unlucky). The problem is honestly, developers don't understand risk versus reward. Time, materials, dealing with individuals who don't know how to play are all risk. I like playing what I like playing. However if I have to do quest X,Y,Z, Plz, Stop, Now...just to get a chance at loot, I'm not only annoyed, but frustrated.  The risk for finding groups to do the content is already very high (especially in servers with lower populations). They often take a lot of resource for materials to figure out how to effectively do a quest. That cost isn't covered by anything. Healers, casters (especially those who rely on materials) end up losing more then a warrior most often.

Lastly is why is there loot. Loot exists to make players more effective players in a game. A piece of loot can boost the attributes or stats of a character significantly. At certain levels, characters are 'expected' to have particular loot to keep up. If they don't, they might get passed over for groups. Players whom repeatedly are passed over begin to grow frustrated. An unlucky character might spend ten times more time meeting minimal requirements then a lucky character does.

Why? It's because monsters are always overpowered compared to players. Developers can make whatever excuses they want about poor AI, but most MMOs have two systems. One for players and one for monsters. You don't have games where a decently powerful player is fighting tons of weak enemies. Yet Helmsdeep (in the movie) is still popular, so too is Resident Evil.

So how do you fix the problem with loot? It's honestly not that hard.

1.) For completing content allow players 'reward points' which they can exchange for modifications they can add to existing armor or 'craft' for new armor. DDO did this pretty good (besides the drop rates being horrible). Players could 'craft' raid loot they wanted based on ingredients. Players then spend the 'reward points' on modifications or rewards available from markets or npcs for their hard work.

2.) Allow players who want random loot to get random loot. Rather then force it on everyone, allow the option for players to recieve 'reward points' or 'chest spawned' loot. Everyone picks the way that suits their luck and hard work. Players who gamble may have better chances, but it's just that, a gamble. Players can work hard to get that 1 thing they want and not feel cheated.

3.) Allow crafting and de-assembling of existing loot. Players might find armor that is attractive but has horrible stats. They can remove the stats to make their own using existing armor mods. This is very similiar of Guild Wars, but it can be done even better.

4.) [Optional] MMOs are often times defined by the skins they have. Weapons with horrible skins are not as popular as those that look really cool. A cool sword can cause everyone to seek it. Thus the item is worth millions in virtual funds. Someone who gets them repeatedly ruins the market for everything else. They have unlimited funds, they can buy whatever they want at whatever the price. Allow players to craft 'new' skins based on basic templates. This means that new designs are always being pushed, and the economy remains competitive. Yes I know this aspect is difficult, but it is something worthwhile.

Loot, money, greed are not by themselves evil. It is the actions that come from their pursuit. Developers who use a carrot and stick approach to their loot are showing that they don't care about players. Marketing has taken control of the company and determined 'how fast it takes to get good'. My message ends up being this;

Developers, your players want to have fun. If someone is unable to sit down and play for an hour, have fun, and get SOMETHING fun or to improve their profit within that hour, then something is wrong. Play your own game, how long did it take you to get that item? Did you calculate unlucky characters chances? Did you balance it versus dungeon costs? Or did you just spend 2 hours to make a cool item, threw it in a loot table with no cares what so ever. Throwing players a bone is not helpful or commendable, it is the mark of an inferior GM and Developer.

Id have to argee with Harabeck idea. That just sounds a lot better than everyone vieing for the same loot. Leaving the person who really needed it screw over. And to the dude who said they prefer game with craftable item. That deal is almost dead in the water. It's becaues of the simple fact that crafted items have there limits to what bonuses, damage and effects they give. WOW still has plenty of flaws to adress and I see no where in the near future Blizzard fixig them.. But atleast they are adressig this flaw. Even though this idea still has its drawbacks.

Almost all of the pug's I have joined recently 3-4 out of the 5 players in the heroic dungeon have outgeared the place, loot was almost irrelevant.

People do these dungeons now mainly for the emblems, a few drops from toc 5 man dungeon (weapons mainly) are really the only items which are likely to leave 1 or 2 people upset. Looking at the loot list for the upcoming Icecrown 5 man dungeons there is going to be some huge upgrades for casual players (maybe some sidegrades for raiders as well).

I can see why the forced need before greed preset is being enforced. That said, I may be more inclined to start a group from my own realm, at least I know a fair few people on the pug circuit there.

I'm shuddering to think about what calibre of asswipe I'm going to encounter soon :/

Although DDO as a whole was boring for me I liked how they did loot. In the dungeon there were chests and no matter who opened them everybody got something and it was randomly generated and then at the end of some quests you can pick you reward from a list of items. Now perhaps that makes your loot less meaningfull but you cant have your cake and eat it too. I liked that system far better than WoW with it's idiot loot ninja, bias guild leaders and just other scumbags who fall to fighting once the epics drop.