Originally posted by whisperwynd

Originally posted by mothelm

 

any that have added a cash shop of any type to thier game that is already a subscrption model has change game play for the entire game ...yes even if its just fluff ...tell why couldnt they add a quest to game for that fluff insted of charging a already paying customer more for what amounts to a small time investment for them either way ?

 

 

This I have to completely disagree with. I can still play WoW, or EQ2 or any game with RMTs and not see a difference at all in my gameplay. I really don't know where you get this. Nothing in the world has changed, i don't see posters or billboards or wagons driving by with cardboards signs selling marketing these items.

I can't even tell when another player is using an xp pot, so really, it's only in your head. That alone makes it change for you...you can't use a blanket statement and say it's game altering, only your experience of it because you can't ignore it.

Reality exists whether you choose to ignore it or not.

The rules have changed, the game has changed. This is still true even if you close your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears.

It also sounds like a really wierd way to play a game.

Dude, you can still have fun, just close your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears and PRETEND the rules are different than what they really are.

In that case we can all just sub to WoW and pretend it's any game we want it to be.

The same exists on your side of the arguments.  The fact is you pay to play a game.  How and for what they charge you is the games reality.

is your gameplay excataly the same ...in every detail in ability to gain "content" the same...now please rmember that content is nothing more then written code...only differance is time spent writing it ,doesn't matter if it a pet or a dungeon its all content and roping it off depended on your wallet is ..well just wrong ..im sorry i grew up in the days where when i got a game ..i got the whole game...this velevt rope approach is wrong ..its wrong no matter how i slice it, i just can't sem to find the way this is fair in the video game world to us the customer...and i know someone gonna say "Life isn't Fair" but you know MMO's used to be fair...whay cant they still be

Originally posted by Horusra

The same exists on your side of the arguments.  The fact is you pay to play a game.  How and for what they charge you is the games reality.

I don't think anyone is disputing that.

I choose to pay to play games which don't sell items. You like playing games which sell items.

That's fine, since different people like different things.

However, it seems incredibly silly to play a game that sells items while pretending it doesn't, or to play a game that doesn't sell items and pretend it does.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by whisperwynd

 

This I have to completely disagree with. I can still play WoW, or EQ2 or any game with RMTs and not see a difference at all in my gameplay. I really don't know where you get this. Nothing in the world has changed, i don't see posters or billboards or wagons driving by with cardboards signs selling marketing these items.

I can't even tell when another player is using an xp pot, so really, it's only in your head. That alone makes it change for you...you can't use a blanket statement and say it's game altering, only your experience of it because you can't ignore it.

 

Reality exists whether you choose to ignore it or not.

The rules have changed, the game has changed. This is still true even if you close your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears.

I disagree. You see it as an issue and so will see nothing but that. I don't, so it won't stick to my craw. It's a matter of perspective.

Nothing has changed but your perception of the game, no skills were altered, the landscape didn't grow mountains, instances haven't spawned new bosses. Nothing perceivable changes except when you see someone with said item.

I tolerate these little additions, you do not. That's ok. But you can't say it'll affect everyone as not every one cares as you do.

The big deal is that rmt+subscription model in the same game sucks. We aren't walking atm machines for their games. Oh and we also have to shell out money for the boxed copy too.

Originally posted by whisperwynd

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by whisperwynd

 

This I have to completely disagree with. I can still play WoW, or EQ2 or any game with RMTs and not see a difference at all in my gameplay. I really don't know where you get this. Nothing in the world has changed, i don't see posters or billboards or wagons driving by with cardboards signs selling marketing these items.

I can't even tell when another player is using an xp pot, so really, it's only in your head. That alone makes it change for you...you can't use a blanket statement and say it's game altering, only your experience of it because you can't ignore it.

 

Reality exists whether you choose to ignore it or not.

The rules have changed, the game has changed. This is still true even if you close your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears.

 

I disagree. You see it as an issue and so will see nothing but that. I don't, so it won't stick to my craw. It's a matter of perspective.

Nothing has changed but your perception of the game, no skills were altered, the landscape didn't grow mountains, instances haven't spawned new bosses. Nothing perceivable changes except when you see someone with said item.

I tolerate these little additions, you do not. That's ok. But you can't say it'll affect everyone as not every one cares as you do.

Very true nothing in the game has changed at all. Its just a vanity pet shop which doesn't affect an individuals game play in any way shape or form. For those doomsayers about this leading to more think about it for a second. Blizzard knows their fans far to well to do something that would most likely endanger the games future. They know there's more money to be had in sheer sub numbers than to have that halved by implementing a full blown item shop. It simply would make no sense for them to do such a thing.

Originally posted by whisperwynd

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by whisperwynd

 

This I have to completely disagree with. I can still play WoW, or EQ2 or any game with RMTs and not see a difference at all in my gameplay. I really don't know where you get this. Nothing in the world has changed, i don't see posters or billboards or wagons driving by with cardboards signs selling marketing these items.

I can't even tell when another player is using an xp pot, so really, it's only in your head. That alone makes it change for you...you can't use a blanket statement and say it's game altering, only your experience of it because you can't ignore it.

 

Reality exists whether you choose to ignore it or not.

The rules have changed, the game has changed. This is still true even if you close your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears.

 

I disagree. You see it as an issue and so will see nothing but that. I don't, so it won't stick to my craw. It's a matter of perspective.

Nothing has changed but your perception of the game, no skills were altered, the landscape didn't grow mountains, instances haven't spawned new bosses. Nothing perceivable changes except when you see someone with said item.

I tolerate these little additions, you do not. That's ok. But you can't say it'll affect everyone as not every one cares as you do.

If that was true, then no programmer would have written new code.

But new programming code has been written.

Reality has changed.

You are arguing that the game has not changed as long as you pretend it hasn't.

This is simply not true.

What you really mean is you like the new game. It's silly to argue that changing the rules has not changed the rules in reality because you pretended they didn't change.

My analogy of Bob and Tim:

Bob is an expert marksman, as well as a superb smith. Bob has won the state title many times over for his precision and devotion. Tim, Bobs friend decides he wants to be like Bob. There's a problem though, Tim's not that great of a shot. See Bob won this great gun in a competition years ago. With his knowledge as a smith he improved  this gun. Tim thinks that's what makes Bob good. So tim goes out and buys a +100 accuracy gun. He enters next years competition, he places top of the contenders to take on Bob. It's close but Bob wins, Tim is in disbelief. He paid a lot more for his gun than Bob did his, What's the deal he asks? Bob's answer to him was,  Tim you just didn't earn it, you didn't take the time to advance yourself in your endeavor. You relied on cash to win for you, hence you learned nothing before participating.

That's how I feel about RMT.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Horusra

The same exists on your side of the arguments.  The fact is you pay to play a game.  How and for what they charge you is the games reality.

 

I don't think anyone is disputing that.

But at the same time the reality that exists in games is multi-leveled.  There is your RP reality that is very rare.  There is the social "it is just a game" reality.  Then there is the "hardcore" reality.  The first and third are a dying breed in games because games cater to the second reality.  The casual that does not care about the purchase of xp potions, vanity items, and such.  So the rules have not changed so much as adapted to the people that are playing.  As everyone knows MMO's are evolving not static like single player games.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by whisperwynd

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by whisperwynd

 

This I have to completely disagree with. I can still play WoW, or EQ2 or any game with RMTs and not see a difference at all in my gameplay. I really don't know where you get this. Nothing in the world has changed, i don't see posters or billboards or wagons driving by with cardboards signs selling marketing these items.

I can't even tell when another player is using an xp pot, so really, it's only in your head. That alone makes it change for you...you can't use a blanket statement and say it's game altering, only your experience of it because you can't ignore it.

 

Reality exists whether you choose to ignore it or not.

The rules have changed, the game has changed. This is still true even if you close your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears.

 

I disagree. You see it as an issue and so will see nothing but that. I don't, so it won't stick to my craw. It's a matter of perspective.

Nothing has changed but your perception of the game, no skills were altered, the landscape didn't grow mountains, instances haven't spawned new bosses. Nothing perceivable changes except when you see someone with said item.

I tolerate these little additions, you do not. That's ok. But you can't say it'll affect everyone as not every one cares as you do.

 

If that was true, then no programmer would have written new code.

But new programming code has been written.

Reality has changed.

You are arguing that the game has not changed as long as you pretend it hasn't.

This is simply not true.

What you really mean is you like the new game. It's silly to argue that changing the rules has not changed the rules in reality because you pretended they didn't change.

You want the code to never change?  Have fun in single player games.  Why are you on an MMORPG forum?

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Horusra

The same exists on your side of the arguments.  The fact is you pay to play a game.  How and for what they charge you is the games reality.

 

I don't think anyone is disputing that.

I choose to pay to play games which don't sell items. You like playing games which sell items.

That's fine, since different people like different things.

However, it seems incredibly silly to play a game that sells items while pretending it doesn't, or to play a game that doesn't sell items and pretend it does.

I wonder where do you get that we go around blindly, pretending to not see it. I know it is there...I just don't care it's there. 
 

Code changes every patch they put in, does it mean I have to scrutinize every bit and piece of it. Not unless it changes my experience of playing it. I don't collect pets, so having a pet available to buy will RL money means little to nothing.

Originally posted by Malickie

My analogy of Bob and Tim:

Bob is an expert marksman, as well as a superb smith. Bob has won the state title many times over for his precision and devotion. Tim, Bobs friend decides he wants to be like Bob. There's a problem though, Tim's not that great of a shot. See Bob won this great gun in a competition years ago. With his knowledge as a smith he improved  this gun. Tim thinks that's what makes Bob good. So tim goes out and buys a +100 accuracy gun. He enters next years competition, he places top of the contenders to take on Bob. It's close but Bob wins, Tim is in disbelief. He paid a lot more for his gun than Bob did his, What's the deal he asks? Bob's answer to him was,  Tim you just didn't earn it, you didn't take the time to advance yourself in your endeavor. You relied on cash to win for you, hence you learned nothing before participating.

 

That's how I feel about RMT.

you assume that +100 gun is for sale in the RMT.  When that happens we can talk.  Till then no tax money to Cali.  It is going to fall into the ocean.

Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by Malickie

My analogy of Bob and Tim:

Bob is an expert marksman, as well as a superb smith. Bob has won the state title many times over for his precision and devotion. Tim, Bobs friend decides he wants to be like Bob. There's a problem though, Tim's not that great of a shot. See Bob won this great gun in a competition years ago. With his knowledge as a smith he improved  this gun. Tim thinks that's what makes Bob good. So tim goes out and buys a +100 accuracy gun. He enters next years competition, he places top of the contenders to take on Bob. It's close but Bob wins, Tim is in disbelief. He paid a lot more for his gun than Bob did his, What's the deal he asks? Bob's answer to him was,  Tim you just didn't earn it, you didn't take the time to advance yourself in your endeavor. You relied on cash to win for you, hence you learned nothing before participating.

 

That's how I feel about RMT.

 

you assume that +100 gun is for sale in the RMT.  When that happens we can talk.  Till then no tax money to Cali.  It is going to fall into the ocean.

And this has been my view as well, as I've stated before.

Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by whisperwynd

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by whisperwynd

 

This I have to completely disagree with. I can still play WoW, or EQ2 or any game with RMTs and not see a difference at all in my gameplay. I really don't know where you get this. Nothing in the world has changed, i don't see posters or billboards or wagons driving by with cardboards signs selling marketing these items.

I can't even tell when another player is using an xp pot, so really, it's only in your head. That alone makes it change for you...you can't use a blanket statement and say it's game altering, only your experience of it because you can't ignore it.

 

Reality exists whether you choose to ignore it or not.

The rules have changed, the game has changed. This is still true even if you close your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears.

 

I disagree. You see it as an issue and so will see nothing but that. I don't, so it won't stick to my craw. It's a matter of perspective.

Nothing has changed but your perception of the game, no skills were altered, the landscape didn't grow mountains, instances haven't spawned new bosses. Nothing perceivable changes except when you see someone with said item.

I tolerate these little additions, you do not. That's ok. But you can't say it'll affect everyone as not every one cares as you do.

 

If that was true, then no programmer would have written new code.

But new programming code has been written.

Reality has changed.

You are arguing that the game has not changed as long as you pretend it hasn't.

This is simply not true.

What you really mean is you like the new game. It's silly to argue that changing the rules has not changed the rules in reality because you pretended they didn't change.

 

You want the code to never change?  Have fun in single player games.  Why are you on an MMORPG forum?

You make no sense.

I said I don't want the RULES to change.

I did not say I never want new CONTENT.

Adding a new zone does not change the Rules.

Adding RMT changes the RULES of the entire game.

If you change the code so that it affects teh RULES< you have changed the game.

whisperwynd is arguing that if you change teh RULES you have not changed the game because he can pretend the RULES have not changed.

Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by Malickie

My analogy of Bob and Tim:

Bob is an expert marksman, as well as a superb smith. Bob has won the state title many times over for his precision and devotion. Tim, Bobs friend decides he wants to be like Bob. There's a problem though, Tim's not that great of a shot. See Bob won this great gun in a competition years ago. With his knowledge as a smith he improved  this gun. Tim thinks that's what makes Bob good. So tim goes out and buys a +100 accuracy gun. He enters next years competition, he places top of the contenders to take on Bob. It's close but Bob wins, Tim is in disbelief. He paid a lot more for his gun than Bob did his, What's the deal he asks? Bob's answer to him was,  Tim you just didn't earn it, you didn't take the time to advance yourself in your endeavor. You relied on cash to win for you, hence you learned nothing before participating.

 

That's how I feel about RMT.

 

you assume that +100 gun is for sale in the RMT.  When that happens we can talk.  Till then no tax money to Cali.  It is going to fall into the ocean.

In many games it is and it's always available through illegal RMT in any game.

Any time you balance the game you change the 'rules'.  You add a new class you change the 'rules'.  Adding in bought pets changes the 'rules'.  It seems you are against any change to a game beside basic content added on to the original build of the game.  In other words a single player game with DLC like Fallout and Oblivion.  Face it mmo's evolve with new technology and new ideas.  If they did not they would not last the years that some of them do.  Evolution changes the rules.  Believe it says on the box that gameplay may change on the box when you bought it.

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by Malickie

My analogy of Bob and Tim:

Bob is an expert marksman, as well as a superb smith. Bob has won the state title many times over for his precision and devotion. Tim, Bobs friend decides he wants to be like Bob. There's a problem though, Tim's not that great of a shot. See Bob won this great gun in a competition years ago. With his knowledge as a smith he improved  this gun. Tim thinks that's what makes Bob good. So tim goes out and buys a +100 accuracy gun. He enters next years competition, he places top of the contenders to take on Bob. It's close but Bob wins, Tim is in disbelief. He paid a lot more for his gun than Bob did his, What's the deal he asks? Bob's answer to him was,  Tim you just didn't earn it, you didn't take the time to advance yourself in your endeavor. You relied on cash to win for you, hence you learned nothing before participating.

 

That's how I feel about RMT.

 

you assume that +100 gun is for sale in the RMT.  When that happens we can talk.  Till then no tax money to Cali.  It is going to fall into the ocean.

In many games it is and it's always available through illegal RMT in any game.

As stated before....name the P2P game that has game changing items for sale as in weapons and armor that allow your skill to be better than someone elses that does not buy it.  I have yet to see an example.  Just examples of F2P games that make their cash off you having to buy items.

Originally posted by Horusra

Any time you balance the game you change the 'rules'.  You add a new class you change the 'rules'.  Adding in bought pets changes the 'rules'.  It seems you are against any change to a game beside basic content added on to the original build of the game.  In other words a single player game with DLC like Fallout and Oblivion.  Face it mmo's evolve with new technology and new ideas.  If they did not they would not last the years that some of them do.  Evolution changes the rules.  Believe it says on the box that gameplay may change on the box when you bought it.

perhaps it should say "gamplay May change according to what you pay"

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

You make no sense.

I said I don't want the RULES to change.

I did not say I never want new CONTENT.

Adding a new zone does not change the Rules.

Adding RMT changes the RULES of the entire game.

If you change the code so that it affects teh RULES< you have changed the game.

whisperwynd is arguing that if you change teh RULES you have not changed the game because he can pretend the RULES have not changed.

 

Actually no, that's your assumption of what you're reading, not what I'm saying. You keep saying pretending, unfortunatley that's not how it is. They may have changed the 'rules' as you put it, but nothing as of yet has been changed ingame. If and when it does and the game does change, and noticeably, then I might see it your way.

However, nowhere is it indicated or even hinted at these kinds of changes. Until they do, I'd appreciate stopping putting your views on what I write as i my own and understand what I'm saying.