Can anyone name a game that wasnt complete when they bought it, and forced you to pay extra for the rest of it?

Any "extra" stuff you buy after the game itself is "extra". You don't *need* to buy it. Get over yourselves.

Originally posted by Mattyb710

Can anyone name a game that wasnt complete when they bought it, and forced you to pay extra for the rest of it?

 

Any "extra" stuff you buy after the game itself is "extra". You don't *need* to buy it. Get over yourselves.

EQ2, I believe they've introduced an ingame instance that is only accessable buy purchasing LON cards in the hope you luck into getting the item that grants you access to the instance.

Originally posted by Malickie

I would be a hypocirit to say I didn't state my gripes about this newest news to the MMO masses. However I must say I find it freaking hilarious it's being taken this far. I've seen multiple long time users take the dive and erase their presense here. Over two stupid looking pets and peoples opinions of them lol. It sucks that people are losing interest in long term hobbies, I still can't help but getting a bit of a chuckle out of this.Sorry if that seems cruel.

Yup, they completely overreacted. I have seen what they did have to offer in the DDO store, and nothing earth shattering. Nothing in there is going to let players be more uber than full grinded toons. And to me, its the only thing that matters. It might speed up a little the progression of new players, but who cares? Veterans that already have everything in the game? Really?

People that project the use of RMT to such extreme heights such as, "OMG, noobs will buy the raid loot and be on equal footing with me and my fragile ego" are kind of funny. If it ever happens to attain such a degre, then by all means stop playing those games if you cant stand it. But to do this preemptively?....

As long as I have fun playing games, RMT or no, I will play them.

Yes, perhaps p2p as we know it is doomed to become a niche, but i'm thinking it won't entirely go away. All i really need is a good, solid MMO to take a stand against RMT and which i feel i can trust to play without fear of having whatever i accomplished in game being sold in a cash shop. i suspect i'm not alone in this.

The rest of you can have the entire genre to yourselves, i dont care. Go play your wallet races if it makes you happy, i just need an MMO to spend an hour or two of my day and then i can have my money to spend on many others of life's pleasures.

One of the things i enjoy the most about MMOs is the metagame, finding a good game is a part of that. Vaya con Dios Heremypet.

The OP needs to find a different hobby, a hobby in which he has more control.  May I suggest model railroading?

Originally posted by Deleted User

Now with Blizzard jumping on the RMT bandwagon, RMT will spread like a virus.  As if it wasn't already bad enough considering how 99% of the MMOs out there are failures or are just plain boring.

I feel as though I've wasted a part of my life by following this genre.  Now RMT will probably wind up inevitably infecting single player console and PC titles as well.  In a sick sort of irony I feel as though I have somehow helped to cause the destruction of gaming by getting into EQ and MMOs in the first place.  If EQ had never taken off I might be playing an enjoyable match of Warcraft 4 right now from a company named Blizzard who is still honorable, instead of wasting time waiting for the industry to get its head out of its rear.

But who knows maybe they will stop with vanity pets you think? lol

Anyone know any good flash game sites?

If your just now figuring this out, your either very slow or a retarded idiot considering your aid in a clone in which blizzard made, and your new found revalation is just simply amazing, Actually the fact the mmo genre is nothing more than the same game refurnished for eye candy.  Rather futurestic or not, killed storyline same old skills no real out standing taste and full of false words and promises and somewhat shavings of lies and deciete. Go play an rpg or something kid.

Originally posted by Scalebane

 I blame all the people who steal games of off torrents, companies gotta recoup that money some how.

stupid ignorant thieves ruining things for everyone.

As this discussion is directed at MMO's I find this comment ignorant.

Either we pay a monthly fee or we get to play it free. Torrents of WoW client isn't taking a dime from Blizzard's pocket.

Until a game developer gets the stones to break out of the EQ mold and do something unique, we'll be seeing existing companies trying to come up with different ways to milk the products they already have out for all the money they can wring out of them.

They honestly don't seem to give a flying fuck about their "reputation" with the gaming community, mostly because we are anything but a community. We are not united or organized in any meaningful way that a corporation would take notice of. We can spout off about "just don't play it then" as if that will show them how we feel. The problem is that as more and more gamers jump onboard this idea it happens so godawful slowly that by the time a game company begins to feel the pinch of less subscribers they no long attribute it to our unhappiness with them but with their "cashcow" model and so that is what they adjust.

We need a focal point (website) where we can coordinate mass-cancellations of our subscriptions on the same day. When cancelling be sure to fill out the exit survey and link the website which will hopefully explain the agreed upon grievances leaving little doubt as reason for the loss of their revenue.

Can we organize to that degree? Hard to say. We're an independant lot by nature, but if anything can unite us it's got to be mutual hatred for anyone that fucks with our gaming experience.

I'm going to make a restaurant analogy here.

Dining out at a restaurant for a meal is your traditional single-player game. You order a meal, you (hopefully) know what you're getting, and it's served. Meals generally have 40 hours worth of eating. Now some guys can burn through that in 10 hours, and other guys stretch it to 80 hours. Sometimes you dine with a friend or two. Sometimes you buy a meal that's totally not what you thought it was (MoO3), you eat it for a few minutes and start throwing up. Then you move on. If you find a restaurant you like, such as Black Isle, you order a lot of meals there. But this isn't stopping you from going out to Bullfrog every now and then.

In the mid-1990s a new type of dining experience was invented with pioneers like Merdian Express, Ultima Bistro, and McQuesties. Truly massive eating experiences (MEEs). You sit down with thousands of other diners and can eat however much you want. Instead of going out to eat with friends, you go out to eat alone and come back having made hundreds of friends. The catch is you are paying $15 a month for this perpetual ongoing buffet. Because you are paying $15 a month, you end up doing all your eating there.

Fast forward 12 years. After BurgerCraft gets up to 10 million paying regulars, it seems every announced dining establishment is either an MEE or has elements of one.

So now the diner is left with a dilemma. He enjoys getting his meals at a MEE. Back when there were a small handful of choices, he didn't mind picking the one with the cuisine he liked and eating there. But now there are hundreds and hundreds of establishments offering massive eating. He can't pay $15 for all of them, so he sticks with the one he is most familiar with (BurgerCraft). And this is why BurgerCraft dominates the massive eating market - everyone eats there because everybody else eats there, and the point of MEEs is to eat with others.

If only there was some way the customer could eat at multiple restaurants. Instead of paying a $15 a month food subscription to every single place he wants try out, what if he only had to pay for the food he wanted to eat when he was hungry? Then he could choose a different MEE to eat at each day, and not be shelling out the subscription for all of them?

Because you see, if he is already subscribed to one MEE any additional MEEs he frequents is essentially wasting his money. He's already paid to eat every meal at BurgerCraft. Why then should he also pay to eat every meal somewhere else, just in case one day he decides he's not in the mood for a burger?

The solution is quite revolutionary. It's called a-la carte.

The genre could very well die . . . World of Warcraft would still survive it though   =)

Let's say every one and I mean absolutely every jumps on the RMT band wagon and the genre looks like it gonna kick the bucket.  Now we are talking a serious number of player decline,  $$ spent in the marke tat an almost all time low and one more RMT product in a massively saturated market could potentially bring the whole world to an end.

I'm guessing that there will be one company that will release a game that will have a box sale price and a monthly sub - and it would become an instant success.

This is of course assuming that RMT do actually have an adverse affect on the actual market and not just bring out the flame in people who otherwise would have left there ignorance to themselves.

Market share has a funny way of always having a leader and this usually comes about by whoever notices something that is missing that the market is genuinely craving so they produce it and viola now it's not missing anymore.

Originally posted by TheHatter

Originally posted by zaxxon23

 

Since we're usually on the same page in regards to our thoughts on games, I'm gonna go easy on you.  :)  The fact of the matter is that every game I've *really* played has been 1)  successful and 2) rmt infested.  In my book, the lack of rmt usually points to a poor game.  The numbers simply don't lie.  You guys against rmt are an extreme minority.  When you quit mmos because of rmt you are but the slightest drop in the bucket.  All the other people who either participate in rmt or don't really give a darn will still be there paying the bills.  Sorry.

 

Ummm.... in the West, RMT games fail pretty hard. They are usually only successful with kids who just want the F2P aspect of most RMT games.

 

Except in EVE's case. EVE's system is pure RMT, but it's done in a way that really works with the way the game is designed.

This is incorrect.
 

Games with item shops are incredibly successful in the west. There is a good reason why they continue to pop up far more frequently than p2p games.

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by TheHatter

Originally posted by zaxxon23

 

Since we're usually on the same page in regards to our thoughts on games, I'm gonna go easy on you.  :)  The fact of the matter is that every game I've *really* played has been 1)  successful and 2) rmt infested.  In my book, the lack of rmt usually points to a poor game.  The numbers simply don't lie.  You guys against rmt are an extreme minority.  When you quit mmos because of rmt you are but the slightest drop in the bucket.  All the other people who either participate in rmt or don't really give a darn will still be there paying the bills.  Sorry.

 

Ummm.... in the West, RMT games fail pretty hard. They are usually only successful with kids who just want the F2P aspect of most RMT games.

 

Except in EVE's case. EVE's system is pure RMT, but it's done in a way that really works with the way the game is designed.

This is incorrect.
 

Games with item shops are incredibly successful in the west. There is a good reason why they continue to pop up far more frequently than p2p games.

There is another reason as well, how many of them are actually unique games? Just about every other f2p that pops up seems to be the same game that poped up last month, with a different name. Half the time they do not even do as much as change some textures here and there.

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Originally posted by Geriden

 I gotta agree at this stage the mmo genre has turned sour complete lack of regulation in standards is to blame in my opinion. Releasing half ass unfinished buggy game's , Terrible customer service (looking at you funcom / Ncsoft) Now this monthly fee + RMT its a total farce i stopped playing mmo's all together now it's a waste of money the companies have gotten so greedy and dishonest and seem to think they have the right to rip us off sick of it and im done it i hope the genre die's because it deserve's to. 

 

Agreed. No regulation means they can do whatever they want and get away with it if people buy into the idea. People need to remember that as customers they have the final say. If they do not want the sub+rmt then boycott it. DO NOT buy their games and canel their subscriptions to send a message across to developers. We are not walking ATM machines to feed devlopers pockets 24/7.

LOL .. boycott them just because they want to sell you $10 pets? Get real. I bought TWO.

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by TheHatter

Originally posted by zaxxon23

 

Since we're usually on the same page in regards to our thoughts on games, I'm gonna go easy on you.  :)  The fact of the matter is that every game I've *really* played has been 1)  successful and 2) rmt infested.  In my book, the lack of rmt usually points to a poor game.  The numbers simply don't lie.  You guys against rmt are an extreme minority.  When you quit mmos because of rmt you are but the slightest drop in the bucket.  All the other people who either participate in rmt or don't really give a darn will still be there paying the bills.  Sorry.

 

Ummm.... in the West, RMT games fail pretty hard. They are usually only successful with kids who just want the F2P aspect of most RMT games.

 

Except in EVE's case. EVE's system is pure RMT, but it's done in a way that really works with the way the game is designed.

This is incorrect.
 

Games with item shops are incredibly successful in the west. There is a good reason why they continue to pop up far more frequently than p2p games.

There is another reason as well, how many of them are actually unique games? Just about every other f2p that pops up seems to be the same game that poped up last month, with a different name. Half the time they do not even do as much as change some textures here and there.

Sometimes a game switches hosts and undergoes a namechange,There are a few games that treat a big expansion as a sequel, but to say that there is a significant amount of companies releasing the exact same game isn't true.
 

Originally posted by Nipashnaka

I'm going to make a restaurant analogy here.

Dining out at a restaurant for a meal is your traditional single-player game. You order a meal, you (hopefully) know what you're getting, and it's served. Meals generally have 40 hours worth of eating. Now some guys can burn through that in 10 hours, and other guys stretch it to 80 hours. Sometimes you dine with a friend or two. Sometimes you buy a meal that's totally not what you thought it was (MoO3), you eat it for a few minutes and start throwing up. Then you move on. If you find a restaurant you like, such as Black Isle, you order a lot of meals there. But this isn't stopping you from going out to Bullfrog every now and then.

In the mid-1990s a new type of dining experience was invented with pioneers like Merdian Express, Ultima Bistro, and McQuesties. Truly massive eating experiences (MEEs). You sit down with thousands of other diners and can eat however much you want. Instead of going out to eat with friends, you go out to eat alone and come back having made hundreds of friends. The catch is you are paying $15 a month for this perpetual ongoing buffet. Because you are paying $15 a month, you end up doing all your eating there.

Fast forward 12 years. After BurgerCraft gets up to 10 million paying regulars, it seems every announced dining establishment is either an MEE or has elements of one.

So now the diner is left with a dilemma. He enjoys getting his meals at a MEE. Back when there were a small handful of choices, he didn't mind picking the one with the cuisine he liked and eating there. But now there are hundreds and hundreds of establishments offering massive eating. He can't pay $15 for all of them, so he sticks with the one he is most familiar with (BurgerCraft). And this is why BurgerCraft dominates the massive eating market - everyone eats there because everybody else eats there, and the point of MEEs is to eat with others.

If only there was some way the customer could eat at multiple restaurants. Instead of paying a $15 a month food subscription to every single place he wants try out, what if he only had to pay for the food he wanted to eat when he was hungry? Then he could choose a different MEE to eat at each day, and not be shelling out the subscription for all of them?

Because you see, if he is already subscribed to one MEE any additional MEEs he frequents is essentially wasting his money. He's already paid to eat every meal at BurgerCraft. Why then should he also pay to eat every meal somewhere else, just in case one day he decides he's not in the mood for a burger?

The solution is quite revolutionary. It's called a-la carte.

Getting all your meals a la carte is certainly much more expensive than $15 a month. A lot more. We're talking stapples here, your everyday fare. Sure, BurgerCraft patties are made out of ground pig snout and chicken beaks (not to mention the 100% recycled plastics cheese) but as ive pointed out before MMOs have yet to evolve to cuisine status.
 

You can dine a la carte on fried foods and calorie bomb desserts all you want. Ill stick to tea and a small salad in the meantime.

Originally posted by Caleveira

Originally posted by Nipashnaka

I'm going to make a restaurant analogy here.

Dining out at a restaurant for a meal is your traditional single-player game. You order a meal, you (hopefully) know what you're getting, and it's served. Meals generally have 40 hours worth of eating. Now some guys can burn through that in 10 hours, and other guys stretch it to 80 hours. Sometimes you dine with a friend or two. Sometimes you buy a meal that's totally not what you thought it was (MoO3), you eat it for a few minutes and start throwing up. Then you move on. If you find a restaurant you like, such as Black Isle, you order a lot of meals there. But this isn't stopping you from going out to Bullfrog every now and then.

In the mid-1990s a new type of dining experience was invented with pioneers like Merdian Express, Ultima Bistro, and McQuesties. Truly massive eating experiences (MEEs). You sit down with thousands of other diners and can eat however much you want. Instead of going out to eat with friends, you go out to eat alone and come back having made hundreds of friends. The catch is you are paying $15 a month for this perpetual ongoing buffet. Because you are paying $15 a month, you end up doing all your eating there.

Fast forward 12 years. After BurgerCraft gets up to 10 million paying regulars, it seems every announced dining establishment is either an MEE or has elements of one.

So now the diner is left with a dilemma. He enjoys getting his meals at a MEE. Back when there were a small handful of choices, he didn't mind picking the one with the cuisine he liked and eating there. But now there are hundreds and hundreds of establishments offering massive eating. He can't pay $15 for all of them, so he sticks with the one he is most familiar with (BurgerCraft). And this is why BurgerCraft dominates the massive eating market - everyone eats there because everybody else eats there, and the point of MEEs is to eat with others.

If only there was some way the customer could eat at multiple restaurants. Instead of paying a $15 a month food subscription to every single place he wants try out, what if he only had to pay for the food he wanted to eat when he was hungry? Then he could choose a different MEE to eat at each day, and not be shelling out the subscription for all of them?

Because you see, if he is already subscribed to one MEE any additional MEEs he frequents is essentially wasting his money. He's already paid to eat every meal at BurgerCraft. Why then should he also pay to eat every meal somewhere else, just in case one day he decides he's not in the mood for a burger?

The solution is quite revolutionary. It's called a-la carte.

Getting all your meals a la carte is certainly much more expensive than $15 a month. A lot more. We're talking stapples here, your everyday fare. Sure, BurgerCraft patties are made out of ground pig snout and chicken beaks (not to mention the 100% recycled plastics cheese) but as ive pointed out before MMOs have yet to evolve to cuisine status.
 

You can dine a la carte on fried foods and calorie bomb desserts all you want. Ill stick to tea and a small salad in the meantime.

I have a feeling you completely missed what I was getting at.

RMT is good for the consumer. As an MMO player, there are only so many MMOs one can play at a time. This is both due to the nature of the genre (where the major competition is at endgame) and due to the ongoing subscription cost which is on top of buying the box. However, when you pay a subscription fee you are paying for unlimited time. This means if you have multiple subscriptions you are effectively wasting your money on some of them, since that time is already "paid for" in another game. It also makes it very hard to try-out new MMOs as they are released, because of the significant investment required to actually determine whether or not it's for you. For example, I played Champion Online for about 2 months until I got my main character to level 34 and realized the endgame was lacking. This cost me the price of the box, plus a month that I paid for (I got a free month out of steam). Therefor when I try out a new MMO, I pre-filter my options. I am not going to try out Fallen Earth as much as I'm tempted, because I doubt it's a particularly good game. The investment is not worth the chance I won't like it. Single player games don't have the same risk, because you can choose to come back and play in 3 months and it will still be there (without renewing a subscription, and without being a total noob since you aren't competing with anyone). Single player games are a known cost. And also predicting player behavior in a virtual world is notoriously difficult, making it much harder to design an MMO than a single player RPG. So there is a much higher rate of terrible MMOs that make it to launch, because certain flaws simply won't be apparent until after the game has matured.

To take Oblivion as an example, it had some very fundamental flaws in the combat system. I basically ended up having to deliberately gimp myself to make it challenging, otherwise I could run around completely invisible and 1-shot anything. Note that in a single player world it's valid to do this (make your own hard mode), but in an MMO everybody would have to run around invisible and 1-shot everything... because everybody else is doing it. Again, MMOs are simply more difficult to design meaning a lower percentage will get it right.

So there are hundreds of subscription based MMOs out there I will never try, as purely a function of investment v. probability of enjoyment. I am not alone. And MMO companies know this, which is why you see a clone effect in the market and a reluctance to try out new ideas. As a consumer I'm not going to subsidize 10 terrible MMOs just to find the gem. This is why a f2p/RMT model is good. I'm a lot more likely to try a free MMO, knowing that I may play it for 5 minutes and determine it's not for me. Or play it for a month and move on. I might even drop a few dollars in an item shop for an MMO that I know I'll only play for a month or two. But I'm not going to buy a box and pay a subscription if I think I won't be around 6 months later.

Thus f2p/RMT allows MMO companies to take more risks, which means trying new things. Because more players will to risk their time and money to try out different things, in order to find that gem. That we even have a concept of the "Wow clone" is an artifact of the western market being more favorable to subscription models in MMOs. Most players aren't going to drop the big bucks up front on an MMO just to try it out. In subscription-land, they are going to wait until they see a familiar MMO style they know will work, or until there is a critical mass of players already in a game.

I geuss it's a good thing the user deleted him or her self.

I mean do we really need people on gaming sites that want 10/20 millions gamers to lose their game?

Nah of course nobody wants this genre to really die, I mean obvious people who arn't really gamers might think that way, but a true gamer understands that he or she does not have to like each and every game that is developed, doesn't mean the genre should die.

I dislike RMT but still see no reason to wish this genre to die, should we really ignore all those thousands if not millions of players that do in fact enjoy games games that have RMT. Of course not, that would be a very selfish act, and this aint the genre to be selfish in. I also believe that those who want games to die are the type of "I want it all and want it all crowed"

I do wish however that we get even more options in this genre, so that most gamers can find their game to enjoy.

@ Nipashnaka; Nah, i pretty much saw what you were getting at and responded from my own point of view. I don't play 2 MMOs at the same time and i will stick to the one i'm playing for the long haul. Different people, different playing styles. To me RMT is not convenient since it makes becoming a veteran in a game worthless. You on the other hand argue for f2ps fitting your style (btw, there is such a thing as trials) as you will be regularly trying out games.

Originally posted by Caleveira

@ Nipashnaka; Nah, i pretty much saw what you were getting at and responded from my own point of view. I don't play 2 MMOs at the same time and i will stick to the one i'm playing for the long haul. Different people, different playing styles. To me RMT is not convenient since it makes becoming a veteran in a game worthless. You on the other hand argue for f2ps fitting your style (btw, there is such a thing as trials) as you will be regularly trying out games.

If you stick with the one you are playing for the long haul, how do you determine which one that is before you buy the box? Especially if it's a new MMO, where all the research in the world won't tell you whether they screwed up the endgame until you get there.

As a side note, the problem with trials is I can't think of a subscription MMO that offers a trial at launch. MMOs use box sales to recoup development costs while the subscription revenue supports the live team. So basically companies paint themselves in a corner where they need those box sales, in some cases, by any means necessary. Which makes it even harder for the player, who now has to wade through marketing nonsense before making the determination.

Originally posted by Nipashnaka

If you stick with the one you are playing for the long haul, how do you determine which one that is before you buy the box? Especially if it's a new MMO, where all the research in the world won't tell you whether they screwed up the endgame until you get there.

As a side note, the problem with trials is I can't think of a subscription MMO that offers a trial at launch. MMOs use box sales to recoup development costs while the subscription revenue supports the live team. So basically companies paint themselves in a corner where they need those box sales, in some bases, by any means necessary. Which makes it even harder for the player, who now has to wade through marketing nonsense before making the determination.

 

I'll let you in on a little secret. Don't jump the gun and join an MMO at release. You should know by now that no release goes...smoothly. There's bugs. There's server ques. There's tons of things that go wrong. Why subject yourself to that?

Wait 3 months for the Free Trial. You'll be able to try it risk free. And usually alot of things will be fixed and patched by then. Also, by waiting a good amount of time, you can gather information on how the game is liked (or not liked) overall. And in that case, you can save yourself the trouble of even bothering with the 14-day Trial all together.

Patience clearly is a virtue. And...if you can't simply wait 2-3 months after a game's release, well then, yes...you are at risk of making a foolish decision and losing your hard earned cash.