Originally posted by Thillian

Originally posted by astrob0y

Originally posted by Elikal 

I don't want to overly dramatize it, but if there are crucial moments in which developments at large are changing, it is this. Sorta like D-Day for Europe, this is a bit of a water margin for MMOs. Why? Simple: we have seen a huge rise in Soloability, and story is still a relatively fresh and new element in MMOs, and - at least until SWTOR hits - something not yet fully developed. An element in its infancy.

........

For good or ill, I think this is the margin of a paradigm change.

 

I liked your post. I wish I could express myself as good as you, but my english is not near as good.

And Ive to say that I agree with what you wrote. I believe it was the last words that caught me-  paradigm change is not something you read to often in this dark corner of the internet :) 

 

Yeh I agree with Elikal's post as well. Shame it's gonna be buried soon by tons of mindless posts including this one.

I agree too, as far as other MMOs go, but Lotro is a different kind of MMO. First of all, it has alot of themepark tendancies, but not so much that you are streamlined, you can go off and explore stuff and the RPG potential is the best of any game out there, but for the most part it is about the story. The gameplay/combat is good, but the quest, story and amazing graphics are what really make this game top notch.
 

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Elikal

This decision is both logical and regrettable. it is regrettable, because experiencing a story in a group is way more fun and excitement than alone. What is the heroic, triumph, what is the tragedy worth, when no one is there to share the moment with you?

 

Maybe but not all the time.

I remember so many times in Guild Wars when the group wanted to skip the cut scenes. I also remember in DDO when going through a dungeon or quest was essentially blazing through it because the participants had already done it. Leaving me to just tag along at their fast clip.

And in LOTRO when I as still reading the last npc's quest text and everyone had already clicked and left the instance.\

I think it takes a group of like minded people to experience quests in a group and to fully take advantage of that.

This change in LOTRO will actually enable me to experience the rest of the main quest. Actually, most of it.

It's not within my personality to shout for groups. If asked I will go and will most likely enjoy it on some level depending on the group, but in the end, if there is no group available I always find something else to do with my time.

Now, this is not to say that I think all group content should be made soloable to bow to my whim. On the contrary, my attitude has always been that I will go without because that is the price I pay for not being proactive about grouping.

My thought is that this is a good thing for my playstyle but they really should enable different and interesting rewards for players who do want to group in order to encourage grouping.

It's funny that this is happening because along with the other voices on forums that asked for this, I had come out and blatantly stated that this was something that I would have liked when I spoke with Steefel at Pax.

It actually gives me a reason to subscribe which of course is probably a huge plus for Turbine as they are probably counting on people who never did the group main quests to actually join for the chance to experience the game. Still, I can't help feel that something was lost with this.

Grouping or soloing should be a decision not something that another has to endure because there is no other way.

Awesome reply and it's often the way I think I have done two raids in LOTRO and honestly those two I had to get drug kicking and screaming.  For me it is more a point of not wanting to feel so "important" to what others in game are trying to accomplish and also the fact that for some reason the mental timer in my head immediately kicks in when in an instance/raid group so much so that the content feels most like a chore and less like fun even with the radiant carrot dangled at the end.  I find myself wanting nothing more than to not be playing the minute I get in an instance/raid but I don't feel I am entitled to that content on the contrary I think since raiders and such go through something I find so excruciating they deserve that extra carrot.

And lastly you are right to group or solo should be a choice made by that indivudual player.  I don't begrudge those who feel no need to play an mmo solo and would hope in time that the sentiment that seems to exist the other way would change.

Thank God ( or Iluvatar anyway.)! As a Hunter there'ld be days I'd spend teleporting all over Middle Earth trying to find groups  to do various open Books ( granted I'm on Firefoot). I imagine for a non-Hunter it would be incredibly difficult.

I'm very hopeful about this. It took me weeks to find a group to finish 1.15.12 (and I'm currently experiencing the same problem with 2.8.3). Not many players are interested in completeing the book quests anymore. It's all about rad gear and legendary items now. When the level cap was 50, the rewards given out for completeing the epic quests were quite desirable. But with level caps approching 65, legendary items and radiance gear, the general consensus is that the epic book group quests are just not worth the time and effort for the outdated rewards offered.  However, for those players who still want to complete the epic quest arc (like me), any option that allows me to work on those quests at MY convenience (and no longer have to hope and pray I can find 5 other players who are also looking for a fellowship) is a big plus.

I'm going to give you Lord of the Rings to read.  Except, before I give it to you I'm going to rip out Chapter 12 "Flight to the Fords" in Book 1; and I'm going to rip out Chapter 5 "The Ride of the Rohirrim" in Book 5.   The only way you can read these chapters I've torn out is too gather 5 friends and read it together.  But as an added challenge, they have to be the right types of friends, and I'll be the judge of that. You can't all be of the same Class of readers -- you can't all be Tolkien Loremasters. You'll need at least one Louis Lamour Tank, and a Rober E. Howard Champion, and perhaps a Harlequin Romance Author Minstrel (doesn't matter who, we just need ONE!)...but I'll not allow any Tom Clancy Hunters into the group because their pages per second (PPS) sucks these days......

So yeah, I think Orion's solution for LoTRO's Epic line can work to solve these bottlenecks.  Still PLENTY of group content. Plenty. Not only PLENTY, but the group content remains the best in the game by far.

As a final observation, I find it fascinating that those who most ardently support forced grouping are the very people with whom I'd least like to group.

Originally posted by Elikal

I don't want to overly dramatize it, but if there are crucial moments in which developments at large are changing, it is this. Sorta like D-Day for Europe, this is a bit of a water margin for MMOs. Why? Simple: we have seen a huge rise in Soloability, and story is still a relatively fresh and new element in MMOs, and - at least until SWTOR hits - something not yet fully developed. An element in its infancy.

Now what we see is, by and large that more and more people want to decide by themselves whether they want to solo or group in a MMO, something that so far was pre-set by the quests and mobs. This might be a turning point. A first step, in which at the end MMOs generally leave the choice in quests. This is so vital, because story will be the mayor innovative factor in MMOs in the coming decade. The one thing which differs old gen MMOs of "kill 20 of X" from really Role Playing MMOs.

This decision is both logical and regrettable. it is regrettable, because experiencing a story in a group is way more fun and excitement than alone. What is the heroic, triumph, what is the tragedy worth, when no one is there to share the moment with you? I think it cheapens those moments, when you have no one to remember it together. On the other hand, it is logical. I have tried to play the stories VERY meticiously in LOTRO, for one because I liked them a lot, and they are what makes LOTRO other than so many MMOs. The book quests. Its what attaches me to my char, and why in LOTRO unlike other MMOs I have only one really played out char. I am one hero in Middle Earth, feeling connected by the book stories. However, in the later days I too had GREAT difficulties to find people for the book quests, especially the more difficult and demanding ones, those which take a long time and much work. So I came to a point in Book 2 where I was forced to wait or skip. So it is, alas, a necessity, which will make it even more difficult to find people for book quests, because as experience shows, what CAN be soloed WILL be soloed by most. Its a bad circle.

 

For good or ill, I think this is the margin of a paradigm change.

Well thought out post. But I think you are being a bit over dramatic. This one change isn't spelling the doom of grouping for the entire industry.  Yes, SWTOR might be that paradigm shift, but not this change to a line of quests that reside in Volume 1. 

I will also nit-pick with your assertion that experiencing the story in a group is way more fun and exciting than alone.  This assertion is not universal. While I have had some fun times with my Kinsman, I have also been frustrated in other grouping situations where everyone is running through the quest so fast that I don't have time to read the NPC dialogues, or fully take in the graphical content. Everyone rushes through it.  An even more frustrating thing is going into a quest fresh with people who've done it a dozen or even a few times and so they KNOW every little thing that must be done -- there's no sense of adventure in that for the newbie going through. That for me is a huge turnoff when experiencing new content.

Originally posted by dhayes68

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Originally posted by dhayes68

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Originally posted by dhayes68

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Originally posted by dhayes68

You have to wonder what they were thinking when they made an MMO that is so story-centric and story-driven (especially given the wide familiarity of the story) combined with having parts of the map delivered over time and restricted to the highest levels.  It leads to a very linear progression that stratifies the playerbase.

I wonder if this solution will accomplish what it is intended too, or will it further dilute the 'community'.

 

Every book is self contained and optional, you can leave this "path" and skip, complete, rejoin any time you want. You do not, and never have had to do them in order, ever.

And they were thinking they were going to make an awesome PVE MMO that was story based and episodic. They were right. 

 

Read my post more clearly and you'll see I'm specifically talking about the story-driven dynamic COMBINED with the parcelling out of the map over time. A strange dynamic I think specific to LoTRO in that they didn't give a whole map, then added to it, but gave only part of a whole map that many are familiar with. And also my point was that the combination of the two would lead to a stratified playerbase.

I'm not knocking your precioussss game. I was addressing the problem that the devs, obviously, in introucing the proposed solution in the article are aware of as well.

 

 

Middle earth is a big place, they are simply working their way west.... How else would they do it?

 

They could do it in a way that doesn't force players into stratified level bands across the game world. So far new lands have been for the highest level players only.  If this trend continues then as the game progresses, some of the parts of the map which should be the most dynamic (like Gondor for example) will be only for the very highest levels.  And by tying the story line to the rollout of new lands it also means as time goes on more and more players will be playing much different parts of the story at the same time which also in a way helps disjoint the player community.

 Not all of the new zones have been only for high level. Infact most of the new content in SOM is for 30 - 65.

So FAR all the new zones have been for high level. SOM hasn't launched yet. And while I'm sure there is new content across the board, the new zones themselves are for high-levels, since low-levels can't get through Moria, no?

 

If you get right down to it. The books themselves were written with levels. They start out with the hobbits as simple folk that never do anything but live their daily lives. You then start to progress with the ring leaving the shire and the encounters getting more and more difficult as you move further away from the shire and get closer to mordor. You see this with the Lotro leveling maps.

The fact that the game is a leveling game requires the new areas to be for higher level players. That is what a leveling game is all about. This is not a sandbox game obviously. This type of leveling is not for everyone, but this game is what it is. They try to add to all levels with free content and expansions. But what will keep the game going is a new high level area with each new expansion. Always moving closer to Mordor and the end of the books.

As far as the changes with the book content. I think it is a great idea. I have played off and on starting with open beta. I still have not completed all the books with any of my characters. I get stuck with 8+ do to my play times and never getting a full group. I don't care about the rewards or xp. I would just like to see the epic book stories as the dev's have written them. It is one of the best parts of the game. I don't want a SPG MMO, but following the story in a story driven game is important to me. The OPTION to solo if I can't get a group will be nice.

Well Orion has been on a personal I got to fix the lone lands for the past 6 month.  He saw the content he so loving designed and most folks bypassed it due to how hard it was.  He is redesigning the entire area hopeing folks will run the content.

The problem is most folks are not going to rerun level 30 content,  they tried to make folks do that about a year back with triumph marks, the went over like a lead balloon when the marks got you junk rewards.

So now they are going to try it again in a different way.

The problem is the book content is level spacific, most folks hated it,  They did it on one toon then found out hey I don't kneed to books to level.  That is the real problem. Nobody likes running content that is so hard you have multi wipes durring it, and nobody like crappy quest reward that just get sold for vender trash.

I don't see this changing how book content is run,  most of your level 60's are either casuall and book content dont matter, or they are hard core raiders, and that will not entice them either.

Your still going to have the problem.  Book content is just not run, not now and not after this.  Most folks will bypass what they do not need.

I'm sorry but for most of you Turbine can do no wrong. Giving people options isn't always a good idea. LOTRO may as well be a single player game with some online capabilities because that is all it will be if they allow players to solo through most of it.

They may as well admit defeat and say they have no solution to these problems. Who's going to bother looking for a group when you can just do it on your own?

Originally posted by pb1285n

I'm sorry but for most of you Turbine can do no wrong. Giving people options isn't always a good idea. LOTRO may as well be a single player game with some online capabilities because that is all it will be if they allow players to solo through most of it.

They may as well admit defeat and say they have no solution to these problems. Who's going to bother looking for a group when you can just do it on your own?

And it was such a financially disastrous decision for Blizzard to allow players to solo most of the way through WoW.   Sorry, I group because I enjoy the people I selectively group with, not because a game forces me to.  There's still plenty of content in LoTRO that requires grouping, and as I said, it is the best content in the game. Allow the early epic lines to be solo'd isn't going to destroy the game.

Originally posted by pb1285n

They may as well admit defeat and say they have no solution to these problems.

Au contraire.

Here's a solution - update the rewards and make them worthy of the quest. If it 's an epic arc, make the loot epic as well. Offer a class-specific First-Age Legendary Item or a radiance gear coin for completing all the quests in all the books. You might be amazed how quickly players will group to do book quests again.

Grab us by the loot and our hearts and minds will follow.  ;)

Originally posted by TarotMage

Originally posted by pb1285n

They may as well admit defeat and say they have no solution to these problems.

Au contraire.

Here's a solution - update the rewards and make them worthy of the quest. If it 's an epic arc, make the loot epic as well. Offer a class-specific First-Age Legendary Item or a radiance gear coin for completing all the quests in all the books. You might be amazed how quickly players will group to do book quests again.

Grab us by the loot and our hearts and minds will follow.  ;)

With SOM all instances now have secondary (random and some class based) objectives that grant rewards. And there are rewards for doing all the books int he deeds. ALSO, scurmish points can be traided for class quest items ( Skirmishes start at 30)

This is the feature I have been waiting for. I left LOTRO a few months ago because I could not complete the epic quest line by myself. Its not that I don't like grouping, I do, but night after night I'd try and get a group to do some of the epic content to no avail. I was stuck. Yeah, I could do side quests and move ahead, and I did that sometimes, but I didn't want to.

I can only play a few mights a week for maybe an hour at a time. So while my kinnies are raiding in Moria, I'm still running around the North Downs. It was frustrating. This change can get me to come back.

Where did you get that screenshot  MR  Bloodsworth!!  I have not seen that in live.

Originally posted by Thillian

 You've got mages riding goats all over the Middle Earth?
 

I get the impression that you find it absurd that a mage would ride a goat. This has me curious - for the sake of understanding your reality - what do mages ride in your world? The reason I ask is because if I saw a mage riding past me on the street I probably wouldn't be saying, "That's odd. That mage was on a goat," I'd be saying "Holy shit, I just saw a fucking wizard!"

Originally posted by jaxsundane

Originally posted by dhayes68

You have to wonder what they were thinking when they made an MMO that is so story-centric and story-driven (especially given the wide familiarity of the story) combined with having parts of the map delivered over time and restricted to the highest levels.  It leads to a very linear progression that stratifies the playerbase.

I wonder if this solution will accomplish what it is intended too, or will it further dilute the 'community'.

 

I don't think I'm dumb but this reads like one of those posts where you are trying to sound super smart but not really saying anything.....

Maybe you're not dumb but you're clearly can't be too sharp if you think I'm not saying anything. Maybe my normal intelligence seems like super intelligence to you because its so far beyond you, or did you deliberately miss my point just to have an transparently pointless excuse to attack me?

Originally posted by astrob0y

And here Im hopeing that the trend in AAA mmo´s would sooner or later shift to a game mechanism that would condur player to group and make new friends. Not every new option is a good one.  Oh well, time to dust of my cute hobbit and do the last books solo then, dosent sound to much of a fun ride but I will do it for the lore and to pwn some orcs :)

And yeah. I know that the trend is moar solo stuff in mmo´s but I dont want anything with that. I want to be apart of a grand team and have a important role in large and smaller battles against the enemy of my avatar.

You know, just because something is soloable doesn't mean you have to do it solo.  Just find some friends and do it as a group.  Or watch for people who are wanting a group for quests you've already done and help them.  Not everyone in the group has to have the quest, so if you're just looking for group activity then it should be easy to find.  I've found that most of my lotro friendships have come not from getting into a PUG for whatever group quest I happen to be on, but from questing with the same people over a long period of time.

Originally posted by dhayes68

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Originally posted by dhayes68

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Originally posted by dhayes68

You have to wonder what they were thinking when they made an MMO that is so story-centric and story-driven (especially given the wide familiarity of the story) combined with having parts of the map delivered over time and restricted to the highest levels.  It leads to a very linear progression that stratifies the playerbase.

I wonder if this solution will accomplish what it is intended too, or will it further dilute the 'community'.

 

Every book is self contained and optional, you can leave this "path" and skip, complete, rejoin any time you want. You do not, and never have had to do them in order, ever.

And they were thinking they were going to make an awesome PVE MMO that was story based and episodic. They were right. 

 

Read my post more clearly and you'll see I'm specifically talking about the story-driven dynamic COMBINED with the parcelling out of the map over time. A strange dynamic I think specific to LoTRO in that they didn't give a whole map, then added to it, but gave only part of a whole map that many are familiar with. And also my point was that the combination of the two would lead to a stratified playerbase.

I'm not knocking your precioussss game. I was addressing the problem that the devs, obviously, in introucing the proposed solution in the article are aware of as well.

 

 

Middle earth is a big place, they are simply working their way west.... How else would they do it?

 

They could do it in a way that doesn't force players into stratified level bands across the game world. So far new lands have been for the highest level players only.  If this trend continues then as the game progresses, some of the parts of the map which should be the most dynamic (like Gondor for example) will be only for the very highest levels.  And by tying the story line to the rollout of new lands it also means as time goes on more and more players will be playing much different parts of the story at the same time which also in a way helps disjoint the player community.

With the exception of Ultima Online, I can't really think of a game where a player just starting out can make their way to or through almost every area of the map.  This is just the nature of games where character advancement is made through levelling.

 If you're playing LoTRO, and you're not doing the storyline quests, I think you should really question WHY you are playing LoTRO given how central the story is to the whole experience. "phat lewt" should not be something that need to bait you with. 

Originally posted by Drockarius

Originally posted by astrob0y

And here Im hopeing that the trend in AAA mmo´s would sooner or later shift to a game mechanism that would condur player to group and make new friends. Not every new option is a good one.  Oh well, time to dust of my cute hobbit and do the last books solo then, dosent sound to much of a fun ride but I will do it for the lore and to pwn some orcs :)

And yeah. I know that the trend is moar solo stuff in mmo´s but I dont want anything with that. I want to be apart of a grand team and have a important role in large and smaller battles against the enemy of my avatar.

 

You know, just because something is soloable doesn't mean you have to do it solo.  Just find some friends and do it as a group.  Or watch for people who are wanting a group for quests you've already done and help them.  Not everyone in the group has to have the quest, so if you're just looking for group activity then it should be easy to find.  I've found that most of my lotro friendships have come not from getting into a PUG for whatever group quest I happen to be on, but from questing with the same people over a long period of time.

Yes I know that I dont need to do them solo. But that is not the problem you see. I for one plays mmo becuse I want to team up and when we have a game that offers a solo or group solution we all know what option most guys will pick.

And my experince with pugs is diffrent than yours. The friends Ive found in the game is by doing random stuff in pugs and then Ive teamed up with the same players later on in the game and slowly we have gotten to know each other as players. And thats mostly becuse Im fun to play with and most pugs do need a kind healer. So our game experince is diffrent and its fun to see that becuse then you can play the game with two diffrent mind sets- we have options in the game.