Originally posted by mightyikari

Originally posted by AnvilMAn

if it looks like a crappy grind-tastic game, if it quacks like a content light power-for-sale game then it must be yet another shit F2P game.

 

This comment purely tells us all that you have yet to truly explore the F2P market recently.  Things are improving massively.  DDO is enjoying a new lease of life by making itself F2P, WAR will too.  I like P2P games when they are value for money, however F2P are FREE and some are consistantly delivering excellent content to its users.  Look at Runes Of Magic and MegaTen which seem to be going from strength to strength.

i dont need to explore anything, see unlike F2P players i have balls and i dont need to rely on my CC to be good at whatever game i play.

Originally posted by AnvilMAn

Originally posted by mightyikari

Originally posted by AnvilMAn

if it looks like a crappy grind-tastic game, if it quacks like a content light power-for-sale game then it must be yet another shit F2P game.

 

This comment purely tells us all that you have yet to truly explore the F2P market recently.  Things are improving massively.  DDO is enjoying a new lease of life by making itself F2P, WAR will too.  I like P2P games when they are value for money, however F2P are FREE and some are consistantly delivering excellent content to its users.  Look at Runes Of Magic and MegaTen which seem to be going from strength to strength.

 

i dont need to explore anything, see unlike F2P players i have balls and i dont need to rely on my CC to be good at whatever game i play.

Ah, one of the HardCore 133t heard from...<rolls eyes> If you think that buy the win is typical of all cashshop games, then you've obviously not played many of them.  Its possible in some, but far from all of them.  I hope you and your "balls" are playing Darkfall... ^^

As I have heard elsewhwere the like of Perfect World was once a decent cash shop game, now it is cash cow for its owners. So enjoy your F2P game while you can, sooner or later the owners will care a little to much for the £$.

Originally posted by bobfish

Something that many people miss is that 99.99% of free to play MMOs are designed around a Korean or Chinese audience, which is much more tolerant of slow and repetative gameplay than the western audiences. Even Runes of Magic, a Taiwanese game suffers from this in some respect, but is arguably the best free to play MMO to be exported from Asia to date.

I think you will find, once western developers start releasing free to play MMOs that the standards will go up drastically. After all, it isn't the payment model that is the problem, in almost all cases it is design decisions that are the problem and none of these design decisions are tied to money, they just happen to be how they make games out there.

Err... how much have you read the forums here and elsewhere? Time and time and time and again, people state that they do not like RMT in any form (cash shops, gold buying, etc) because they don't believe that your character's progress should be tied to how much money you spend in an item shop; that your character's progress should be based on playing the game itself, not how often you can pull out your credit card.  That is a major turn-off to many people. You can't just dismiss it as "it isn't the payment model", when there's a sea of evidence out there that, to many, the payment model is one of the *key* problems. 

The design decisions are poor because they make a MMO that's mostly otherwise bland and uninspired and that encourages people to get "the good stuff" in the cash shop. Or, to get things that help players get to "the good stuff" or do better at "the good stuff" (e.g. end game, PvP, etc) by using the cash shop.

Look to Earth Eternal, possibly the first real free to play game from a US developer, it incorporates a lot of good design decisions and very few bad ones, if you look past the somewhat child-like art style they've chosen.

That's your opinion, though. Not everyone feels that way and it's not necessarily an argument for a RMT model.

Also, I'd wager that if they implemented a Cash Shop model into the game, it would turn many people away. Again, just look at reactions to similar situations out there... people will say "It looks like a fun game, but no way will I play a MMO with an item mall".

Everyone needs to stop judging games based on the payment model, Aioshi included, and start judging them on their gameplay!

It's not that simple.

Originally posted by Scot

To encapsulate this article a developer who was employed on subscription games is now on F2P games. He has now decied that F2P is a fresh, innovative format with a lot going for it. Lucky for him, as that is where he is now working. I wonder what his bosses would have had to say if he had described F2P as a stale, money raking, vapour ware format? I think his comments were rather constrained by his new job.

So the need to deliver new content faster makes it somehow better? I doubt it.

"There isn't the nagging feeling of wasting a month that's already been paid for" – has anyone reading this ever had this feeling when playing a subscription game, because he seems to have just conjured that from no where?

Bingo. That's exactly what I touched on in an earlier post. They're placing F2P MMOs as the "solution" to a "problem" that they just dreamed up.

They do it all the time for products on TV... imply that you might have "x" problem, but lucky for you... they have this great product to help!

I wish the F2P lovers who publish this article would surf our forums and see the number of threads from people who have been burnt by F2P games, losing loads of money to these MMO cash cows. Check that out and then tell me how wonderful the so called free to play format is.

Yep... again... It's *not* a very well received payment model here, for a number of reasons. Myriad people have made that clear for a long time now. This article, and several posts in this thread (and in others) seem to completely ignore that fact. The arguments they put forth, like "people play P2P longer because they have to justify the money they're spending" or "the payment model isn't the problem, it's the game design" are red herrings, plain and simple.

The "problem" is that cash shops change the gameplay in a MMO in a very fundamental way. Also, they're marketed dishonestly - sure you can *play* for free... but how competitive do you expect to be at end-game?

These people know how competitive people are and how important it is for many to have all the best of everything... They know that many people will spend far more on RMT (buying gold, items, characters, etc) in a P2P MMO than the subscription fee alone. Time and again it's been described, by even people who like Cash Shops, that having and being the best in any F2P MMO = spending a lot of money in the cash shop. 

Originally posted by Scot

As I have heard elsewhwere the like of Perfect World was once a decent cash shop game, now it is cash cow for its owners. So enjoy your F2P game while you can, sooner or later the owners will care a little to much for the £$.

Funny... every time those who don't like cash shops explain how that will happen - albeit gradually - and that players will find themselves having to spend more and more to "keep up", they're told they don't know what they're talking about. And yet, there's a perfect example (no pun intended).

The concept of "F2P" is disingenuous marketing spin, and little more. You don't pay to buy the game and there's no set monthly fee, but the developers fully intend that their average target player is going to spend *far* more than a box purchase and sub fee in the long run. And they fully intend to make sure it happens. Remember... F2P developers are just as interested in making money as P2P developers. Their approaches are different, but their goals are the same.

I realize there are people who don't mind paying for the cash shops... and that's fine, but it's also not a strong "rebuttal". There's been people for *years* now who've spent thousands of dollars eBaying items, gold and characters in MMOs where it wasn't allowed... so it's not a surprise. The companies have simply found a way to tap into that "secondary market" and keep more for themselves... erego "F2P" MMOs with Item Malls.

Originally posted by RagnarokWar

Y'know... I see a lot of bashing of Free To Play games on here. Some do abuse their cash shop, and yes, some are really cruddy, but let's face it: It's a free game. While you're tossing cash at the developers every month saying "Can I please keep playing for the game I paid $50 for the CD for?", Free to Players are getting their games for free, and a lot are starting to catch up in content to the Paid guys. Some paid games, like RF Online, DDO, and Sword of the New World went Free to Play and have since become even more successful. Just because we aren't paying for our latest crack fix doesn't make our games junk.

Wow... talk about pure, unmitigated spin. That argument of, "I already paid for the box, why should I have to pay every month to play?" went out with the dinosaurs.

Similar to AOL, MMOs are as much "online services" as they are "games". Your monthly sub goes toward the maintenance and upkeep of said service so you can enjoy the content you paid that $50 for. You know... there *are* people there who have to keep the servers running, people who have to consistently create patches and fixes and then successfully implement and test them, etc. etc. etc. There are bandwidth costs the companies have to pay. The power being used by all those server clusters costs money.

You fail to mention, also, that most MMOs continually add new content during the life of the game without charging an additional fee above the subscription. Lineage 2 has never charged for a single update since it came out. You buy the game and every update - increasing the game to over twice its original size by now - is included, as is every future expansion. LoTRO adds entire new regions and other content without charging for a full expansion.

Seriously... that argument is so out-dated and demonstrably false that it actually surprised me to see it being made again.

I'm seriously sick of this. Sub-based gamers will say anything just to valiantly defend their MMOs when the rest of the world knows exactly what it is: You're begging the devs to play your game again, just like when a crack head needs his fix, otherwise you can never log in and play your game again. All your time and work and effort lost until you spend the cash. Every. Single. Effing. MMORPG. I HAVE EVER PLAYED. Has been a grindfest. World of Warcraft is adding level 85, and nixing, AGAIN, all the raid gear you fought so hard for, bringing new skills, more races, and more importantly, MORE IMBALANCES, and leaving the past content almost barren since no one's playing it anymore.

More spin, colored with personal bias. "Valiantly defending P2P"? Hardly... Some of us are able to see the bigger picture and aren't charmed over by the word "Free".  If anything, F2P MMOs are potentially getting *more* money out of a typical player than a P2P with a monthly sub is.

If you were talking to people with no brains, incapable of thinking and looking at things critically and who took everything at surface value.... then your bold declarations might be more persuasive. For some of us, at least, they aren't.

To state a P2P MMO is any less of a grind is utter nonsense. I grind less in Runes of Magic than I ever did in World of Warcraft. I'm leveling faster, enjoying more, and I don't have to pay for anything. Some of us choose to support the devs, some just play for free. The only MMO I've met yet that you pay for and have actually gotten my money worths forth Guild Wars, and it had no subscription based content. Each expansion pack, save Eye of the North, was stand-alone. They updated the game continually, with game balances and tweaks rather than lumping in new skills and new classes to further imbalance the game.

Yes... well that supports your point-of-view quite consistently. The only MMO worth playing for you is one that doesn't charge a monthly sub. You established that in the first paragraph.

That's my experience with this industry. I refuse to play "Pay to Play" games. I paid $50 for that game CD, and now you tell me I have no right to play the game? The devs can shove it up their rear then. The sad thing is, most Free to Play games change up the formula more than subscription MMOs, they tend to add something new and unique you'll never find in a subscription MMO. Dragonica, for instance, is an arcade-style action MMO. I don't see many of those in the Pay To Play sector. Heck, I FIRMLY believe that if Tabula Rasa had gone Free to Play with a cash shop, it'd still be alive today, and that game was more fun than half of these point-and-click armchair-general games that are flooding the market nowadays.

Wow... you're really pushing that mantra aren't you. Perhaps you think you're on to something profound and are pushing it for all its worth? Unfortunately, it's not profound at all. It's completely disingenuous and anyone who takes enough time and effort to look at the situation *rationally* instead of *emotionally* (such as yourself) can understand the difference. 

Also, again... many of us *have* played F2P MMOs.. I've played close to 10, if not that many myself. I know what the differences are between the two.

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by Scot

As I have heard elsewhwere the like of Perfect World was once a decent cash shop game, now it is cash cow for its owners. So enjoy your F2P game while you can, sooner or later the owners will care a little to much for the £$.

Funny... every time those who don't like cash shops explain how that will happen - albeit gradually - and that players will find themselves having to spend more and more to "keep up", they're told they don't know what they're talking about. And yet, there's a perfect example (no pun intended).

The concept of "F2P" is a sham... you don't pay to buy the game and there's no set monthly fee, but the developers fully intend that their average target player is going to spend *far* more than a box purchase and sub fee in the long run. And they fully intend to make sure it happens.

I realize there are people who don't mind paying for the cash shops... and that's fine, but it's also not a strong "rebuttal". There's been people for *years* now who've spent thousands of dollars eBaying items, gold and characters in MMOs where it wasn't allowed... so it's not a surprise. The companies have simply found a way to tap into that "secondary market" and keep more for themselves... erego "F2P" MMOs with Item Malls.

 

I am just curious, how does this vary from P2P?

In P2P they put in artificial constructs to get more money out of the player. This is why it is P2P... They charge you up front, and then find ways to keep charging you (expansions, etc). The less they can give you, and the more that they can sell you, the more they make...

So, how are the two different (P2P is Pay up front, F2P is Pay as you go)? In both you end up paying (that was the plan).

Originally posted by Superman0X

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by Scot

As I have heard elsewhwere the like of Perfect World was once a decent cash shop game, now it is cash cow for its owners. So enjoy your F2P game while you can, sooner or later the owners will care a little to much for the £$.

Funny... every time those who don't like cash shops explain how that will happen - albeit gradually - and that players will find themselves having to spend more and more to "keep up", they're told they don't know what they're talking about. And yet, there's a perfect example (no pun intended).

The concept of "F2P" is a sham... you don't pay to buy the game and there's no set monthly fee, but the developers fully intend that their average target player is going to spend *far* more than a box purchase and sub fee in the long run. And they fully intend to make sure it happens.

I realize there are people who don't mind paying for the cash shops... and that's fine, but it's also not a strong "rebuttal". There's been people for *years* now who've spent thousands of dollars eBaying items, gold and characters in MMOs where it wasn't allowed... so it's not a surprise. The companies have simply found a way to tap into that "secondary market" and keep more for themselves... erego "F2P" MMOs with Item Malls.

 

 

I am just curious, how does this vary from P2P?

In P2P they put in artificial constructs to get more money out of the player. This is why it is P2P... They charge you up front, and then find ways to keep charging you (expansions, etc). The less they can give you, and the more that they can sell you, the more they make...

Well, first of all, your first sentence is spin, pure and simple. The "artificial constructs" you refer to is called *content*... things to do to keep the player interested and playing so they'll continue to subscribe. Without new content, or at least without *good* new content, the game becomes stale and the players move on to something else.

The difference is that in a P2P MMO you *know* what you're getting for that $15 a month. You *know* what you're getting for that $40 expansion, and you *know* that everything available in the game is available to you purely through playing the game, as it is equally available to everyone else in the game, for the same flat rate. You *know* that a given piece of gear is available through entirely in-game means... be it by defeating the creature that drops it, completing the quest that rewards it, or earning the money in-game to buy it from another player or NPC. You're not going to have to pull out your credit card to obtain it (RMT notwithstanding). 

And really... it goes beyond even that example...

In Perfect World, you have to purchase tokens that allow you to use the global chat - that means either spending a lot of in-game money and buying it that way, or pulling out the credit card and paying to buy some from the company. Is that something players should have to pay extra for in a genre that is social by nature? I wouldn't say so.

The devs of Perfect World know MMOs are social games and thus, people are going to want to talk to each other across large areas. They're cashing in on it by making players pay for the "privilege". That is something you will *never* have to pay extra for in a P2P MMO, because it's all included as part of the base subscription, along with all the content, items, potions, trinkets, pets, mounts, etc. etc.. Those are all things available for a flat monthly sub in a P2P that are, in my experience, often only available through item malls in F2P, and for much more than $14 or $15 a month. 

... and that's just one example of how so-called "F2P" MMOs differ drastically in how they make money from P2P.  I could write entire paragraphs of examples.

Here's one more...
In a P2P MMO, where all the content is available to you for the box price and a $15 or so monthly sub, a player needs only their own time and effort to obtain the best gear to compete at the high end game, and then their own time and effort to remain there - in other words... they need only play the game and pay that flat monthly sub.

Conversely... It's been noted and demonstrated, time and again, in thread after thread, by even those who *like* the F2P model,  that in order to do the same in a typical F2P MMO that the player will not only require the time and effort involved to get there, but will very likely end up spending *far* more than $15 a month... not only to *become* competitive... but to remain competitive. I have yet to see anyone among even the strongest proponents of F2P claim that they were able to compete at the top level of the game against others without having to use item malls to do so.

It's been argued that  "not everyone wants to be that competitive, so that doesn't matter"... except that it does. The same holds true in P2P MMOs... Some people are more competitive and want to be the best. Others aren't as competitive and play casually. The difference is, the more competitive players in a P2P still pay no more a month than the less competitive ones to do so.

Again... there are myriad examples of how the F2P model differs from P2P and that, when broken down point-for-point across the board, considering all players and play styles, is not nearly as "free" as its description implies. The contrary, they can - and do - end up costing players far more than a comparable P2P MMO would... and that's exactly what the developers count on.


So, how are the two different (P2P is Pay up front, F2P is Pay as you go)? In both you end up paying (that was the plan).

Your argument has been made, and that same question has been asked and answered many times in the past, by myself and others. The differences between P2P and F2P are quite obvious to those willing to look past the "Free" part and see how the developers have actually set the games up. 

 

The proof is on the pudding, I advice anyone to try a F2p game then play a comparable P2P game.

In my opinion, the devs take more of a long term look into making a P2P. While F2P takes a close look at short term 2-3 months.

All F2P games I have played have ok/good conent tell the first class change then goes down hill. They are intended to squezze cash out of you as fast as they can becuase the simple game play gets bring after a lil bit. When you switch to P2P they wave that prized endgame to keep you developing your charecter, the conent is in more of waves, the excitment as well. In most P2P games yo will have allot of new stuff then in will get boring until you hit the next wave and then repeats.

F2P is a model I dont see working, if anything a combo might come to the west like pay per day or something.

In the end better games are still P2p and I dont see that changing.

This article failed to impart much wisdom as to the wonderfulness of Free-to-Play gaming.

It basically confirmed my own observations that players of these games are twitchy youngsters with severe attention deficit disorders. The games are purposefully designed to keep the ADD-afflicted engaged, which means quantity over quality.

MMOs are as much about community as anything else. F2P game design naturally attracts a class of player looking for quick and instant gratification. This is also rarely conducive to a mature and/or a lasting community. The players generally tend to come and go with passing fads and fancies. As such, you really don't get much community at all. Just temporary occupants passing each other by.

Again, if the developer was trying to convince players that there is something great about F2P games that most of us just can't see, then he failed miserably.

And don't compare DDO with their F2P to P2P/Runescape-like model to F2P item malls. DDO is still designed with subscription gamers in mind, and their pricing model differs from pure item malls accordingly. DDOs success since going F2P does not validate the wider F2P model, just it's own unique model.

DDO is the only MMO using RMT's I don't lump into the F2P bag of tosh. They use a hybrid model allowing subcribers to get all content. But note, it was a subscription only game at first. I wonder if it would have been as good had it started with this hybrid model? I don't think so, RMT's breed a certain style of MMO, one with less depth and more pap. My concern is that down the line DDO will be drawn that way, but we can only hope that does not happen.

I fear for the future of mmorpgs in general and I believe f2p is to blame. Almost everyone who plays or played a f2p game brags about how he/she is getting by with getting what he/she wants without having to pay anything at all. This trend is becoming more real as players over time are expecting their games to come free of charge, the less they will begin spending in item malls. The few that actually supported through cash shop will move on to other f2p games that gives them a better reason why NOT to pay anything at all. Before long, the "consumer" will become the "pan handler". The f2p market will more desperately do anything to keep their players around but in the process of failing, it will also condition many of their supporters to give up on mmorpgs all together. The more a player demands a great product for free, the less likely he/she would want to pay anything for it or it's features.

The p2p market attracts a more mature audience of players with jobs and real life responsibilities. Many of whom understand that nothing good in life is free. The problem still remains that if the f2p market fails, it would cause a domino effect in consumer confidence and may eventually bring the mmorpg market on it's knees. Many players are already turning back to console games or PC RPGs. I can only expect that this trend will continue as many developers will begin to pull out of the mmo market and focus on single player based products (there is NO way to make a single player f2p game and gain any profit).

DDO is an example of a p2p game masked in a f2p shroud. It's intentions can over time condition the f2p market into understanding the need to pay for something they want desperate access to. This exception may work to some degree but at the end of the day, someone has to want to pay to access the bulk of the gaming experience or else it's just a temporary solution to a very serious and growing problem.

Unless the next posts will be flooded with f2p advocates claiming that they spend their mommy and daddy's entire pay check on item mall, I doubt we will hear anything encouraging to denote that f2p has a real stable financial future. You are supporting your own doom. Give a man a piece a bread today and he will be hungry tomorrow, teach that same man how to bake or sell his own bread and he will always eat. The f2p market is running out of bread...
 

This article should now be changed to say:  Not Free Zone:  A Developer's Shift to RMT + a sub fee.

Originally posted by WSIMike

Wow... 

I must have tried all the wrong F2P MMOs, because so far - having played Perfect World, Archlord, Shaiya, Last Chaos, Runes of Magic... and at least half a dozen others - I've yet to see a F2P MMO that comes close to the P2P MMOs I've played in terms of content, quality and depth. Almost without exception, they've been shallow, simple grind-tastic affairs with lazy designs that focus on trying to get you to use the cash shop. At best they've been underwhelming and I've lost interest in playing them after a couple days.

 

Try Spellborn Mate, it is free now and easily kills a few Subscription based games.

I like that people are giving feedback here but the point in some ways is that there are only so many subscription users out there, I won't pay a sub on a game as it isn't worth my time as I am a causal player (family and job). I rid myself of WoWcrack a couple of years ago and feel better for it!

I honestly think the quality issue is a good one, I wouldn't play an anime based childs game. But how do you provide a high quality game with no or a limit budget.

But once again not Spellborn was not desighned for F2P. That has been a desperation move after they did not get the player base they want. So you have a solidly based MMO now, but what will happen in the future? Another poster in another thread described how Perfect World started out as a decent cash shop F2P MMO. But it ended up as a cash for xp nightmare, once you have made the decision to go fully F2P with no subs, what else can you do to increase revenue but go down the PW route?

Like one of the posters above I think F2P may be the death of MMO's as we know them, they will still live on but as F2P cash cows that old players and many new will not play.

Originally posted by Scot

But once again not Spellborn was not desighned for F2P. That has been a desperation move after they did not get the player base they want. So you have a solidly based MMO now, but what will happen in the future? Another poster in another thread described how Perfect World started out as a decent cash shop F2P MMO. But it ended up as a cash for xp nightmare, once you have made the decision to go fully F2P with no subs, what else can you do to increase revenue but go down the PW route?

Like one of the posters above I think F2P may be the death of MMO's as we know them, they will still live on but as F2P cash cows that old players and many new will not play.

Exactly right in regards to Spellborn. They made way too many mistakes in the first few months(IP lock outs, poor communication, staggered launches, no credit card option(Acclaim for months, little effective media push). That fragmented the potential player base badly.  The original company is now bankrupt. Leaving the game in the tender "mercies" of Acclaim.  Hell, Acclaim couldn't even do 2moons right. GameHi has taken it back and is running it now. I've played PW myself. Now there is an example of a cash shop run amuck.

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by AnvilMAn

Originally posted by mightyikari

Originally posted by AnvilMAn

if it looks like a crappy grind-tastic game, if it quacks like a content light power-for-sale game then it must be yet another shit F2P game.

 

This comment purely tells us all that you have yet to truly explore the F2P market recently.  Things are improving massively.  DDO is enjoying a new lease of life by making itself F2P, WAR will too.  I like P2P games when they are value for money, however F2P are FREE and some are consistantly delivering excellent content to its users.  Look at Runes Of Magic and MegaTen which seem to be going from strength to strength.

 

i dont need to explore anything, see unlike F2P players i have balls and i dont need to rely on my CC to be good at whatever game i play.

 

Ah, one of the HardCore 133t heard from...<rolls eyes> If you think that buy the win is typical of all cashshop games, then you've obviously not played many of them.  Its possible in some, but far from all of them.  I hope you and your "balls" are playing Darkfall... ^^

hi id like to introduce you to my friend slippery slope, slipper slope meet wraithbone. hes also known in other circles as a snowball rolling down a hill.