Originally posted by tensspotting

 Of course - this should not be a debate even

 

Instances = PVE 

 

PVP open world

 

Thats why the real PVP games like Darkfall and Mortal Online are open world, the devs know REAL PVPers will not take an instanced game. 

 

Another reason why I consider AoC, War WoW as pure PVE games, I wont even go into the other reasons.

 

 

Whether or not you accept it but the purest form of pvp in mmo's right now are arena's in WoW. They pit the skill of one team against the other with no external obstacles to hinder each other. Another major flaw in your theory is that  some people also see open world dungeons as true PVE and will argue that to death. Not saying your incorrect just saying your "opinion" is about as factual as anyone else on this topic.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

There'll always be PvP servers to play on.

I don't believe that mission based PvE instances are detrimental to the PvP experience, they're just detrimental to griefers and gankers by affording the people in them immunity from outside interference.

This immunity seems to allow for greater flexibility in the design of PvE encounters. My experience of ORB (outside raid boss) fights in a PvP enabled environment has always been of very simplistic, tank-and-spank fights.

As an example, I can't imagine a fight mechanic like the Heigan dance (WoW, Naxxramas) in an open-world environment since a single enemy could wipe the entire raid with one cast of an AOE root spell.

Meaningless and boring PvP servers, where no PvP actually occurs because of instanced PvP and no world content.  Yeah, those are great on WoW.  Look at all the great PvPers on the PvP servers.  

All of the WoW PvPers basically suck at PvP because they were raised in a carebear type of environment.  It's funny because WoW players aren't good at PvP OR PvE.  That is why they dumbed down all their content, and made PvP so that you don't actually lose anything such as exp. 

What would be wrong with someone interfering with Heigan?  That is how Everquest was, it had real PvP in it unlike your carebear WoW game.  Maybe guard against people interfering?  God forbid people in WoW had to put up with real PvP, they might quit or something.

Originally posted by Frostbite05

Originally posted by tensspotting

 Of course - this should not be a debate even

 

Instances = PVE 

 

PVP open world

 

Thats why the real PVP games like Darkfall and Mortal Online are open world, the devs know REAL PVPers will not take an instanced game. 

 

Another reason why I consider AoC, War WoW as pure PVE games, I wont even go into the other reasons.

 

 

Whether or not you accept it but the purest form of pvp in mmo's right now are arena's in WoW. They pit the skill of one team against the other with no external obstacles to hinder each other. Another major flaw in your theory is that  some people also see open world dungeons as true PVE and will argue that to death. Not saying your incorrect just saying your "opinion" is about as factual as anyone else on this topic.

Lol, the purest form of PvP for carebears & lousy players, maybe.  Because people in WoW wouldn't have lasted a day on an EQ Zek server, where you can get killed in towns or in newbie leveling areas.

Arenas.. skill based.  When's the last time you checked the rankings?  I guess if it was skill based it wouldn't be the same class combos at top, right?

WoW arenas are the fakest form of PvP there is.  You go into a safe zone, fight over artificial rewards.  It is a meaningless and boring form of PvP for carebears. 

WoW players suck at PvP and PvE, that is why it is all in protected instances.  They were so bad they couldn't handle the 40 man instances (even 40 man BWL was too hard for most WoW players.  Obviously their PvP system had to be designed for those players.

Originally posted by Ginkeq

What would be wrong with someone interfering with Heigan?  That is how Everquest was, it had real PvP in it unlike your carebear WoW game.  Maybe guard against people interfering?  God forbid people in WoW had to put up with real PvP, they might quit or something.

Yup, they might quit if they had to "put up" with your concept of "real PVP". Can you explain to me why any sanely-run company would adopt policies which would cause the majority of its customers to quit, in favor of attracting a very small and notoriously fickle group of players?

Come on, explain it to me.

Please?

(As a side note, I have to consider extending your idea of "real PVP" to other environments. For example, some might claim that, say, chess or football are for "carebears" since all the games occur in an instanced battlefield (you set the chessboard up clean, you start each game of football with a score of 0 to 0 and equal members on both teams, and in both cases, official-style play pairs you against closely-ranked opponents), and that if the players wanted a REAL challenge and weren't "carebears", it should be allowed to, say, steal pieces from one player's board, or a allow a spectator use a high powered sniper rifle to kill the quarterback. If the "carebears" don't like this, they should just hire guards, right? Furthermore, since there's no consequences to losing such a game other than losing, it isn't any kind of REAL competition. People who lose games shouldn't be allowed to just shake their opponent's hand, say, "Good game!", and try to do better next year. No, they should be made to SUFFER! They ought to be KICKED in the CROTCH and then SPAT on! Otherwise, there's nothing at stake and no risk, so it "doesn't count".)

Originally posted by Ginkeq

Originally posted by Caleveira

I would disagree. Im not saying you dont have a point, but well done instances are a nice thing to have, and you really cant entirely concentrate on the PvE if you know a fight with a boss can be broken up by KSers at any time. We had an uninstanced dungeon in PWI which became infamous as griefers would use it to gank lowbies trying to complete quests. Sure, the fights that broke out between those of us trying to help them and the guys camping it were fun, but the low levels we couldnt keep alive through AoE and it really got annoying after a while. The game has a system that rewards you with xp for helping them so we werent in it just out of the kindness of our hearts... All wannabe PKers would zerg over you just to up their counts. 

As a PvPer who does enjoy PvE, my solution would be to work out instances in such a way others could get in but wouldnt find it easy to catch up. Im all for open world PvP, but we really need to come up with a better solution than antiPKers to deal with griefers and KSers. Give the carebears a fighting chance. Instancing could become a part of it if done smartly, several routes, for instance, with varying difficulty levels and having elites with better AI that could follow you and strike at the best time. Imagine an instance wont open until theres at least a group at every entrance, then its both a race and a fight. The shortest way has the toughest mobs. Open world dungeons do sometimes work, but being trapped in there waiting for the boss to spawn and relying on guildies and allies to hold numerical advantage is something of a drag. To me the best PvP is done with a friend or two and a PUG, not relying on whatever mood your guildies are in to run a dungeon so you can gear up. Guild you should only call for the big fights, the ones theyll thank you for doing.

So, to me instancing can be an amazing tool if used right, as it could balance situations that devolve into whos got the body count. Imagine running away from a large group into an instance only a few can follow in. Or using them to set up an ambush against your KoS. The strategic potential of instancing is yet to be exploited. WAR scenarios, although flawed, were also a step in the right direction. And its easier for developers to do.

 

What is wrong with ganking lowbies?  Isn't that PvP?  Why should levels protectpeople from an integral part of an MMORPG?  Low levels should level in fear of a high level coming by and killing them, that just makes the game more interesting.  I remember in Everquest trying to level on Sullon Zek, certain teams controlled certain zones and the other teams could hurt each other by killing low levels on the other team & taking over their zones.  

I don't understand what is wrong with that.  Sure, they are at a disadvantage, but doesn't open PvP with no rules just encourage more PvP?  If high levels were to come in and gank low levels, then your team would be able to come in and protect the low levels as well.  It really encourages teamwork & socializing with other players. 

Imagine being a newbie, someone who is really low level on a PvP server, and having higher levels on another team attacking you + taking over your leveling area.  When those low levels ask their own team for help, and are helped by their own team, with no artificial rewards.. that is a great thing.  That person that was helped will want to level up and help their own team fight against the other teams.

Open PvP without instancing really builds unity among the teams, it's something you don't get in games like WoW.  Because in WoW, everything is basically instanced, and you can level without being attacked, no one cares if you get randomly PKed in a zone.  On top of that, it's not like the players lose anything in PvP, so your own team will care even less if you get killed by someone.  The view in WoW is that PvP should take place in instances, so no one does World PvP anymore (because World PvP is meaningless in instance games like WoW)

So I don't have a problem with griefers.. even if I was the person being griefed I don't have a problem with them.  Because if you were getting griefed, you would probably just want to get revenge on that person eventually.  It builds a healthy PvP system imo.

Now I understand not everyone can handle griefing, but that's why they should have multiple servers with different rulesets.  It's just hard to comprehend how games like WoW can call their instanced servers PvP servers when there is no healthy PvP on those servers because of the instancing system.  Their game would have been playable had they built a server without instances, with open PvP and no battlegrounds.  It would have been a real PvP server that is driven by server politics rather than artificial rewards that encourage farming other players for points (mindlessly.)

In EQ, KSing wasn't that huge of an issue.  If a guild showed up at an NPC first, then they basically have a time limit to kill it in.  It means that raids require more skill and require getting right.  If you take too long in a certain zone, another guild might show up and try to kill it.  But what is wrong with that?  It's not like the guild that was there first deserves the NPC because they were there first.  If another guild puts up a fight over an NPC, isn't that a healthy PvP system?

There were a lot of big fights over important NPCs in EQ, 50-100 people from each team fighting each other.  There is just nothing like that in any new MMORPG, because people don't have a good reason to fight each other in newer MMORPGs.

The only reason I ever did World PvP in WoW was out of sheer boredom.  There was never any meaning behind World PvP in WoW, because there was never any conflict between the teams.  Teams can't fight over anything in WoW, because they each have their own copy of everything. 

Instances are a massive failure on PvP servers.  To label a WoW server as "PvP" is a joke and Blizzard should be ashamed for labeling blue servers as red.  WoW is just a PvE game with no PvP system to speak of.  Not even their Battlegrounds or Arenas are PvP to people like me, because where I'm from PvP was actually meaningful and not based on artificial point systems where you farm each other.  

 

 

I recently read this on Wikipedia:

Instances were first proposed by Richard Garriott in the late 1990s as a way to solve a set of related problems which had become obvious in Ultima Online. The problem can be stated as follows: everyone wants to be "The Hero" and slay "The Monster", rescue "The Princess" and obtain "The Magic Sword". When there are 2,000 and more players all playing the same game, clearly not everyone can be the hero. The problem of everyone wanting to kill the same monster and gain the best treasure became obvious in the game EverQuest, where several groups of players would compete and sometimes harass each other in the same dungeon, in order to get to the monsters dropping valuable items. The creation of instances largely solves this set of problems, leaving only travelling to and from the dungeon as a potential risk in player versus player environments. There are few examples of boss camping and kill stealing in World of Warcraft - because a copy of the dungeon (instance) is always created on demand each player or party.

Richard Garriott, the same guy who was responsible for the massive failure of Tabula Rasa.  And people wonder why MMORPGs have been going downhill for the past 10 years?  When idiotic ideas from this guy are used in every new MMORPG to date?

"Leaving only travelling to and from dungeons as a potential risk in PvP environments."  What a joke that is... And once people are in those dungeons they are magically protected from PvP, what a fucking joke...  Whoever thought PvP and instancing should be used together is an idiot

 

i like mmo i like pvp i like doing quest and freedom of choise without forcing and im sure im not alone with this opinion,

i like free world to do whatever you want but one thing i dont agree is the red highlighted, if i have time to play like 1 to 2 hours a day for example everyhting else im doing outside gameworld and i like mmo games cause there is people around not just programmed stuff. the last thing i would like to experience as a new player that some uber elite guy come and gank me while im on a quest just because he needs to raise hes virtual *****. 

so i say its everyhting wrong in ganking players at that state! if you not even gona benefit anyhting from it ingame world.

cheers,

What is wrong with ganking lowbies? Isn't that PvP?

People who gank lowbies are cowards, plain and simple.

Actually they do mix.  It's the most competitive type of pvp you can have, it's a sure way to have fair fights or at least close to it.  In an instance you're more likely to have everyone ready to fight, all players equipped to the best of their ability for fighting (sometimes sans retards); no distractions from mobs, a variety of classes that can synergize and work together, and for the most part equal levels (at least at end game).  Ganking lowbies is for scrubs. 

Originally posted by Ginkeq

Originally posted by Frostbite05

Originally posted by tensspotting

 Of course - this should not be a debate even

 

Instances = PVE 

 

PVP open world

 

Thats why the real PVP games like Darkfall and Mortal Online are open world, the devs know REAL PVPers will not take an instanced game. 

 

Another reason why I consider AoC, War WoW as pure PVE games, I wont even go into the other reasons.

 

 

Whether or not you accept it but the purest form of pvp in mmo's right now are arena's in WoW. They pit the skill of one team against the other with no external obstacles to hinder each other. Another major flaw in your theory is that  some people also see open world dungeons as true PVE and will argue that to death. Not saying your incorrect just saying your "opinion" is about as factual as anyone else on this topic.

 

Lol, the purest form of PvP for carebears & lousy players, maybe.  Because people in WoW wouldn't have lasted a day on an EQ Zek server, where you can get killed in towns or in newbie leveling areas.

Arenas.. skill based.  When's the last time you checked the rankings?  I guess if it was skill based it wouldn't be the same class combos at top, right?

WoW arenas are the fakest form of PvP there is.  You go into a safe zone, fight over artificial rewards.  It is a meaningless and boring form of PvP for carebears. 

WoW players suck at PvP and PvE, that is why it is all in protected instances.  They were so bad they couldn't handle the 40 man instances (even 40 man BWL was too hard for most WoW players.  Obviously their PvP system had to be designed for those players.

 

having people gank you at half health doesn't qualify as pvp eitherbuddy. Say what you will the form you enjoy is called gankfest the form i prefer is considered a sport. Sorry but thats a fact. Your a carebear if you don't like ganking even though gankin takes no skill at all.

Originally posted by Ginkeq 

Meaningless and boring PvP servers, where no PvP actually occurs because of instanced PvP and no world content.  Yeah, those are great on WoW.  Look at all the great PvPers on the PvP servers.  

What would be wrong with someone interfering with Heigan?  That is how Everquest was, it had real PvP in it unlike your carebear WoW game.  Maybe guard against people interfering?

There is open-world PvP on PvP servers.
There is also considerable open-world PvP on non-PvP servers.

One of the level 80 zones (Wintergrasp) is geared 100% towards open world PvP. There are also PvP daily quests in several zones that encourage open-world PvP.

Even in an open-world PvP game, one person should not have the freedom to screw over 20 others without risk, consequence and significant difficulty. Being able to one-shot an entire raid is not a reasonable expectation.

It would seem that from your comments here, you're not concerned with PvP at all, but with the ability to gank and grief. As another poster already pointed out, few people are willing to pay a subscription to be treated as cannon fodder in fights that they have no chance of winning.

I'm thinking someone couldn't get past 1500 rating in the WoW arenas and came to vent about it.  I mean if the people here saying WoW pvpers "suck".    If it is that easy and lame of a system you could have made some easy, good money playing a video game stomping all those sucky high tiered WoW pvpers in the arenas on a pro level.

Instances provide a way to compete against another team on a some what of an equal ground.  You know like a sport.  In the end there is no excuse for your lose except for the way you and your team played.

I'm all for world PvP but I've yet to see it be done well since EVE and DAOC.  Believe it or not most of those high tiered WoW arena players were the same guys and teams trashing you and your little group in roaming pvp games as well.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Ginkeq 

Meaningless and boring PvP servers, where no PvP actually occurs because of instanced PvP and no world content.  Yeah, those are great on WoW.  Look at all the great PvPers on the PvP servers.  

What would be wrong with someone interfering with Heigan?  That is how Everquest was, it had real PvP in it unlike your carebear WoW game.  Maybe guard against people interfering?

There is open-world PvP on PvP servers.
There is also considerable open-world PvP on non-PvP servers.

One of the level 80 zones (Wintergrasp) is geared 100% towards open world PvP. There are also PvP daily quests in several zones that encourage open-world PvP.

Even in an open-world PvP game, one person should not have the freedom to screw over 20 others without risk, consequence and significant difficulty. Being able to one-shot an entire raid is not a reasonable expectation.

It would seem that from your comments here, you're not concerned with PvP at all, but with the ability to gank and grief. As another poster already pointed out, few people are willing to pay a subscription to be treated as cannon fodder in fights that they have no chance of winning.

Did you even read my post?  There isn't open world PvP in WoW.  It's meaningless because of instances.

No PvP occurs on PvP servers, I've played them before.  

I don't care about ganking & griefing, they should be available options in any real PvP game.  I'm concerned more with guild  or team vs team PvP, which doesn't occur in your carebear WoW game.  

Originally posted by dstar.

I'm thinking someone couldn't get past 1500 rating in the WoW arenas and came to vent about it.  I mean if the people here saying WoW pvpers "suck".    If it is that easy and lame of a system you could have made some easy, good money playing a video game stomping all those sucky high tiered WoW pvpers in the arenas on a pro level.

Instances provide a way to compete against another team on a some what of an equal ground.  You know like a sport.  In the end there is no excuse for your lose except for the way you and your team played.

I'm all for world PvP but I've yet to see it be done well since EVE and DAOC.  Believe it or not most of those high tiered WoW arena players were the same guys and teams trashing you and your little group in roaming pvp games as well.

I was on top of the meaningless PvP system when I did play WoW, but I don't think other classes really had a chance vs Paladin + DK combo.  Doesn't change the fact that the Arena system was extremely boring.

WoW pvpers do suck.  It's class advantage, and it's fake.  Real PvP never occurs in WoW.  Remember WoW world PvP before BGs?  Newbies killing each other all day in Hillsbrad, and there was never a winner because of respawn and lack of exp loss.

Sure WoW is easy at this point, but I'm not gonna play it because it's easy.  It's boring when a game is as easy as WoW is.

LOL High Tiered WOW players are good PvPers?  They picked the right class combination, that's about it.  Who really cares about BGs or Arenas though, since they are fake PvP systems for carebears who couldn't handle real PvP systems like the one in EQ.  Carebears like that wouldn't survive in EQ

I'm sure you were at the top.  Judging by your excuses you seem like a very high tiered player.  Your argument is so compelling and filled with great information I think you've changed a lot of peoples minds.

Originally posted by Ginkeq

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Ginkeq 

Meaningless and boring PvP servers, where no PvP actually occurs because of instanced PvP and no world content.  Yeah, those are great on WoW.  Look at all the great PvPers on the PvP servers.  

What would be wrong with someone interfering with Heigan?  That is how Everquest was, it had real PvP in it unlike your carebear WoW game.  Maybe guard against people interfering?

There is open-world PvP on PvP servers.
There is also considerable open-world PvP on non-PvP servers.

One of the level 80 zones (Wintergrasp) is geared 100% towards open world PvP. There are also PvP daily quests in several zones that encourage open-world PvP.

Even in an open-world PvP game, one person should not have the freedom to screw over 20 others without risk, consequence and significant difficulty. Being able to one-shot an entire raid is not a reasonable expectation.

It would seem that from your comments here, you're not concerned with PvP at all, but with the ability to gank and grief. As another poster already pointed out, few people are willing to pay a subscription to be treated as cannon fodder in fights that they have no chance of winning.

Did you even read my post?  There isn't open world PvP in WoW.  It's meaningless because of instances.

No PvP occurs on PvP servers, I've played them before.  

I don't care about ganking & griefing, they should be available options in any real PvP game.  I'm concerned more with guild  or team vs team PvP, which doesn't occur in your carebear WoW game.  

I read it, I just disagree with you.

There is open world PvP in WoW. People can, and do, PvP outside of instances. I know this, because I do it myself. I was doing it earlier. It's fun. It happens. Stating otherwise is well, just wrong.

I also disagree with ganking and griefing mechanics being in a PvP game. I consider it lame, cowardly and pointless to engage in fights with an enemy that can't defend themselves.

I also disagree with your statement that team-vs-team PvP doesn't occur in WoW. It occurs inside the PvP instance such as arenas and battlegrounds. The only difference is that in these environments, the odds are somewhat fairer.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Ginkeq

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Ginkeq 

Meaningless and boring PvP servers, where no PvP actually occurs because of instanced PvP and no world content.  Yeah, those are great on WoW.  Look at all the great PvPers on the PvP servers.  

What would be wrong with someone interfering with Heigan?  That is how Everquest was, it had real PvP in it unlike your carebear WoW game.  Maybe guard against people interfering?

There is open-world PvP on PvP servers.
There is also considerable open-world PvP on non-PvP servers.

One of the level 80 zones (Wintergrasp) is geared 100% towards open world PvP. There are also PvP daily quests in several zones that encourage open-world PvP.

Even in an open-world PvP game, one person should not have the freedom to screw over 20 others without risk, consequence and significant difficulty. Being able to one-shot an entire raid is not a reasonable expectation.

It would seem that from your comments here, you're not concerned with PvP at all, but with the ability to gank and grief. As another poster already pointed out, few people are willing to pay a subscription to be treated as cannon fodder in fights that they have no chance of winning.

Did you even read my post?  There isn't open world PvP in WoW.  It's meaningless because of instances.

No PvP occurs on PvP servers, I've played them before.  

I don't care about ganking & griefing, they should be available options in any real PvP game.  I'm concerned more with guild  or team vs team PvP, which doesn't occur in your carebear WoW game.  

I read it, I just disagree with you.

There is open world PvP in WoW. People can, and do, PvP outside of instances. I know this, because I do it myself. I was doing it earlier. It's fun. It happens. Stating otherwise is well, just wrong.

I also disagree with ganking and griefing mechanics being in a PvP game. I consider it lame, cowardly and pointless to engage in fights with an enemy that can't defend themselves.

I also disagree with your statement that team-vs-team PvP doesn't occur in WoW. It occurs inside the PvP instance such as arenas and battlegrounds. The only difference is that in these environments, the odds are somewhat fairer.

It's pretty rare for open World PvP to occur in WoW.  The reason is that people realize it's meaningless.  If you are grinding in a certain area, what is the point of PvPing, when the person who attacks you isn't going to lose exp when they die, and they will just come back in ghost form and attack you?  

In EQ, if you fought over a certain area, players would ask for LNS (loot n scoot), which means you let them loot but the area is yours afterwards.  In WoW, what happens is they keep coming back.  People don't want to PvP because the person they kill can just come back and attack them again (and are protected by carebear ghost form)

I don't gank or grief people, but I don't think it should be disallowed by MMORPGs.  Can you gank or grief someone IRL?  Why should MMORPGs be a protected bubble where you can't have any fun?  If I wanted meaningless PvP i would go play an RTS game, but no, now games like WoW and newer MMORPGs instance their PvP and make it just as meaningless.

At least if you were leveling up in a game with ganking/griefing, you would need more skill to level up.  You wouldn't have every newbie at level 75 like you do in WoW.

PvP instances don't count as Team vs Team.  Take battlegrounds for example, you fight people from DIFFERENT servers INSIDE INSTANCES.  How is that team vs team?  You're fighting random people, they have no relation at all to the world on your server.  Arenas are the same thing too.  

In real MMORPGs like EQ, you fight people who are actually on the same server, not random people.  And you fight over things that are related to your server, not random point systems in protected carebear zones.

The only difference between EQ and WoW PvP is that WoW PvP is designed for carebears, whereas EQ PvP was real and you fought over things that affected the outcome of your server.

Fake WoW carebear game.

And to the person claiming I couldn't get above 1500 rating, lol.  WoW players are skill-less, don't think I would have any trouble beating the type of person who plays WoW.  My guild was in Naxx40 when you were wiping in Molten Core and ZG.

[BUNCH OF STUFF I WAS GOING TO TYPE, ALL ESSAY STYLE]

tl;dr: ahahaha instances!

Originally posted by Ginkeq

It's pretty rare for open World PvP to occur in WoW.  The reason is that people realize it's meaningless.  If you are grinding in a certain area, what is the point of PvPing, when the person who attacks you isn't going to lose exp when they die, and they will just come back in ghost form and attack you?  

In EQ, if you fought over a certain area, players would ask for LNS (loot n scoot), which means you let them loot but the area is yours afterwards.  In WoW, what happens is they keep coming back.  People don't want to PvP because the person they kill can just come back and attack them again (and are protected by carebear ghost form)

I don't gank or grief people, but I don't think it should be disallowed by MMORPGs.  Can you gank or grief someone IRL?  Why should MMORPGs be a protected bubble where you can't have any fun?  If I wanted meaningless PvP i would go play an RTS game, but no, now games like WoW and newer MMORPGs instance their PvP and make it just as meaningless.

PvP instances don't count as Team vs Team.  Take battlegrounds for example, you fight people from DIFFERENT servers INSIDE INSTANCES.  How is that team vs team?  You're fighting random people, they have no relation at all to the world on your server.  Arenas are the same thing too. 

You claim that you don't gank or grief people, but are stating here that you only consider PvP to be meaningful if you can cause lasting damage to another player. I equate that to griefing. You're openly stating that you don't want an enemy that you kill to come back and try and kill you; that you don't want PvP.

I can't agree with your definition of meaningful. I only consider PvP to be meaningful if the outcome is not predetermined by differences in level and numbers as is so often true in FFA PvP games.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Ginkeq

It's pretty rare for open World PvP to occur in WoW.  The reason is that people realize it's meaningless.  If you are grinding in a certain area, what is the point of PvPing, when the person who attacks you isn't going to lose exp when they die, and they will just come back in ghost form and attack you?  

In EQ, if you fought over a certain area, players would ask for LNS (loot n scoot), which means you let them loot but the area is yours afterwards.  In WoW, what happens is they keep coming back.  People don't want to PvP because the person they kill can just come back and attack them again (and are protected by carebear ghost form)

I don't gank or grief people, but I don't think it should be disallowed by MMORPGs.  Can you gank or grief someone IRL?  Why should MMORPGs be a protected bubble where you can't have any fun?  If I wanted meaningless PvP i would go play an RTS game, but no, now games like WoW and newer MMORPGs instance their PvP and make it just as meaningless.

PvP instances don't count as Team vs Team.  Take battlegrounds for example, you fight people from DIFFERENT servers INSIDE INSTANCES.  How is that team vs team?  You're fighting random people, they have no relation at all to the world on your server.  Arenas are the same thing too. 

You claim that you don't gank or grief people, but are stating here that you only consider PvP to be meaningful if you can cause lasting damage to another player. I equate that to griefing. You're openly stating that you don't want an enemy that you kill to come back and try and kill you; that you don't want PvP.

I can't agree with your definition of meaningful. I only consider PvP to be meaningful if the outcome is not predetermined by differences in level and numbers as is so often true in FFA PvP games.

Wrong.  The thing with WoW PvP servers is they never lose exp.  So PvP is meaningless because you can kill the same newbie 100 times and they will come back and annoy you.  If you kill someone in PvP, they can recognize when they are outmatched and leave.  But when they don't lose anything, they don't have any incentive to leave.  So you have some idiot newbie who keeps attacking you and annoying you, ghost form protects them from being attacked when they come back, and they jump on you when you are fighting.  Because they don't lose  exp, it doesn't matter to them.

You want little meaningless instances to be the place where PvP should take place.  Zones not even connected with any players/guilds on your server that don't affect anything.  Why should PvP occur there as opposed to the actual server / world you are playing on?  It's stupid

Who cares about number advantage?  I'd rather fight against people on my own server and have things unbalanced than go into those pathetic carebear instances for PvP (where you fight random newbies from every server.)

Meaningful PvP is PvP connected to the server / world you play on.  Instanced PvP is meaningless.  

Has this argument become about arena? I dont like the system myself but its ok for other people to do...

I think the point the OP is missing is that some of the posters are right about open world devolving into gankfests if left unchecked. One problem people in PvP servers face in most games is dwindling population. Many people who like to call themselves PvPers start quitting the second they realize theyre loosing the initial leveling race. Griefers become frustrated and instead of merely ganking lowbies start harrasing players. The antiPKer role becomes tiresome as you cant do anything else anymore, a part of the player base expects you to act as police, and ive even seen guilds go to absurd lenghts to formalize rules of engagement and such. In the end you know half the people youre "helping" are KSers or griefers themselves who are only abusing your trying to help the comunity. A small exodus of people more into crafting or merchanting soon begins towards the carebear servers. Oh, and youll loose a good third of the playerbase whenever a new PvP server opens as everyone rushes at a shot at a higher place in the food chain there.

I no longer believe in the distinction in between PvP and PvE servers, which is one of the things i like about Aion. It does nothing but divide the comunity. PvP should be encouraged, not forced, by game mechanics. Open world PvP can only work within a system of checks and balances, ive previously posted how i think instancing could help in this. That is also why in other threads ive opposed stealth, getting ninja'd by griefers isnt really fun at all. Im a PvPer which means i can take it. Then again, it isnt fun you cant run an instance half the times you want to because youre too busy putting a party together to go hunt down yet another group of brats...

Originally posted by Ginkeq

Wrong.  The thing with WoW PvP servers is they never lose exp.  So PvP is meaningless because you can kill the same newbie 100 times and they will come back and annoy you.  If you kill someone in PvP, they can recognize when they are outmatched and leave.  But when they don't lose anything, they don't have any incentive to leave.  So you have some idiot newbie who keeps attacking you and annoying you, ghost form protects them from being attacked when they come back, and they jump on you when you are fighting.  Because they don't lose  exp, it doesn't matter to them.

You want little meaningless instances to be the place where PvP should take place.  Zones not even connected with any players/guilds on your server that don't affect anything.  Why should PvP occur there as opposed to the actual server / world you are playing on?  It's stupid

Who cares about number advantage?  I'd rather fight against people on my own server and have things unbalanced than go into those pathetic carebear instances for PvP (where you fight random newbies from every server.)

Meaningful PvP is PvP connected to the server / world you play on.  Instanced PvP is meaningless. 

Earlier you claimed that no-one in WoW took part in open-world PvP. Now you're claiming that WoW PvP is meaningless because people can keep attacking one another repeatedly rather than slinking away once beaten. Why, if you are looking for PvP, would you be trying to make other PvPers leave?

Cross-server PvP is a separate issue to Instanced PvP. I'd prefer to have recognisable names from the opposing faction too, but I don't consider it a requirement to enjoyable PvP.

I care about number advantages when they mean that a battle is unwinnable.