Inspired by comments in my other thread, this is something thats been bugging me about this game, and i see in posters here as well.

Players have very little interest in actually doing something for their realm.

A few days ago during siege time we took an asmo fort that unfortunately had a very small defense force. Roughly an hour later our keep went vulnerable, and while a few people were calling for players to defend, we only managed to get made 20-30 to show up. Looking back, this always seems to be the scenario out in the abyss.

While calling out for defenders, several players were going on about "what's the point?" or "we took theirs, let them take ours" and such.

Is it just me, or have players lost their competitive spirit in mmo's?

I'm hoping it's something that will change as players start making 50 and getting more involved in the abyss, but in all honesty the average player menatlity has changed in pvp games, and i am slightly doubtful that this trend will change.

not that many people have made it into the abyss and the ones that have are still working on leveling. When people get into higher levels and start haveing more free time they'll concentrate more on competitive gameplay

MMO players spend their time doing things that they are rewarded for. They also default to the easiest path to the rewards.

Soo, it's probably safe to assume the rewards are poor for defending a fortress.

I suppose if there were no rewards at all for PvP, people might do it just for the competition. But it's hard to say how many people would like the game.

Most players now play to gain their gear, not to defeat the enemy.

The game doesn't matter. It was the same in Warhammer.

The design of these games encourages such behaviour, though. Selfish rewards draws in selfish players.

PVP is dead in the eyes of most of us older players they dont make good pvp games anymore.       Took away builds forced to grind lvls and forced to have good gear no full loot.        In Aion case over the keeps def is a no go since it smarter to just pass keeps around for lack of getting anything good for a keep def.       If all the def got the same AP and cash for for being and fighting at a keep def got the same or better yet more for a def then it be worth it.

Real realm pride takes a while to develop - I think very few start off with it in a game like this.  Acknowledged leaders for each side will also take a little while to emerge and build credibility.

That, and as someone else said, the vast majority are still concetrating on building their characters.  I imagine the Abyss will look and feel different in another 2 or 3 months.

No one cares because you're playing a linear, hold you by the hand MMO that highly rewards PvP rather than being a reward in and of itself with a few bonuses given now and then.

Realm Pride died when Blizzard implemented the first PvP rewards.

Nobody knew it then, but from then on, PvP systems would take this idea, and implement a solely individual-driven, character-centric reward system. At the same time, the mainstream audience with little to no interest in the RPG-part of MMORPGs flooded the genre, and it became all about the mighty "me".

I do not think you can reverse this step of MMO evolution though. A focus on individual rewards is now expected.

Aion follows the same formula as WoW - greed. The whole game is based around it, including PvP. So when you get next to nothing when defending a fortress, most players will choose an activity that's more rewarding. Which is pretty much every thing else.

I pointed this out many times WRT to Warhammer Online, and I'll repeat it here:

Real wars are fought for two reasons.

1 - to gain what someone else has

2 - to keep what you already have

'RvR' campaigns in these games are being designed by people who don't know a damned thing about real war.

Any design that rewards co-operation with the enemy is going to fail HARD.

You have to have limited resources which both sides need and thus fight each other for. Crafting ingredients, some sort of stone which is required to level, control of game services (mail, AH, fast travel).

Most MMOs try to appeal to everyone, but that doesn't fit with 'meaningful' PvP. PvP has to be both costly in defeat and rewarding in victory.

For example:

One thing that could be done is to make gaining max level dependant on capturing all of several forts/castles/whatever. If your realm caps all of the objectives - everyone who has maxed out their xp gains the final level. In Warhammer, that could be applied to advance to the next tier, as well. In Tier one - Order or Destruction has to capture ALL BOs in every zone to allow L11s to gain L12.

There are all kinds of systems that could be designed to encourage competition between factions. The real trick is not allowing the rewards to give an unbeatable advantage to the victor.