Originally posted by Ozmodan

Since about 3/4 of all female avatars are played by male players I just consider all of them male until proven otherwise.

Never understood the male proclivity to playing a female avatar.

I have lots of male and female toons in many different games. In most cases, such as my female human DK in WoW, I personally dislike the way that the male humans look and like the females better. I am the one that has to sit there and stare at my toon every time I play, why wouldn't I rather have an avatar that is more aesthetically pleasing. That means nothing whatsoever about my sexual preference or intentions- everyone I know knows who I am and who my characters are, and that's all that matters.  In fact, we have many females in our guild, but twice as many female toons because many of the guys play them as well.

That said, I do agree with Ozmodan that I just assume that everyone I encounter in game, male or female, is a male until I learn otherwise ( I admit that I have come across a few who have been deceptive about age or gender).  Overall, I couldn't care less.  It's just an avatar, and it's just a game.

Seeing stupid stuff like this (and the arguments that follow it) remind me of my own MMO experiences.

For the record, my characters tend to be either gender, following a 50/50 ratio.  Now does that somehow make me bisexual?  Or perhaps sexually insecure? Strangely enough, it doesn't.

There's absolutely no reason to harp on people playing an avatar of the opposite gender.  Notice that this is quite different from someone pretending to be something he's not for dubious reasons (such as getting free stuff, having fun at someone's expense, etc)

I think the problem stems from people who equate avatar gender with real gender and/or sexual orientation.  To give you a very concrete example, lets go back in time when I was in the Meridian 59 beta (yep, a long time ago in MMO history).

I had made a female avatar named Red Sonja. Never once did I roleplay, I simply interacted with people the same way I do in real life.  Yet somehow within a week I had received three marriage proposals because people interpreted me being sociable and generally nice to others as being a woman.  Truly silly thinking, and a sign that some people take online interaction WAY too seriously.

I never led anyone on, I never lied to anyone, I never pretended to be a woman, I simply (naively) assumed people wouldn't try to hit on others.  All the avatar gender insecurity comes from these types of people: it's the internet, there's no way to tell who you're dealing with at first glance.  Whether they're male or female, pedophiles, racists, terrorists, policemen, the Pope or the President of the United States.

So people, stop assuming stuff about strangers and just enjoy the game you're playing.  Internet friendship will never beat real life friendship, try it on for size.

Does this surprise anyone? The Chinese Government loves to put on a show for the outside world as to how far they have come...ie the Olympics, but the World knows better. They are a Communist country that controls every aspect of their citizens lives... At some point, the people will grow tired of it, and the internet will be the catalyst.

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by demarc01

Originally posted by Malickie

This is such a juvenile post, do you feel better?

First of all I really have no care about the Chinese one way or the other it makes no difference to me ( I do like Bruce Lee). What they do doesn't have an impact on "most" of my daily life. I however have a hard time discerning exactly how you're pulling some kind of racist message from this discussion.  You're definitely not thinking every point you're making through. Sure someone can sit in front of a cam hold up an I.D. and pass the test so to speak. In this day and age that means absolute squat. Which is what the author was getting at and I think you missed that part. There's no way to know if the she is a he even if you do check in the nether regions. This is a Pandora's box imo, open it and you're in for all kinds of surprises.

I seriously doubt anyone seriously thinks they would expect you to pull up your skirt, it's the purpose itself that is insanely ridiculous. There's no way to know whether she used to be a he, or she may even become a he. That's society today, no matter where in the world you are.

 

Feel better? Naw I am here on my day off supping some beers and shooting the shit online. Feelings have little to do with it. Juvenile? heh no comment there since I was only answering your post in the method you chose to answer mine mate.

You have no care what the Chinese do? Thats interesting to me since they hold the purse strings of America. Yup America is so far in debt to China if they called in the tab we'd all be eating moo-shoo next week.

I dont think your racist at all. I'm pretty sure I never even implyed that either. If you did take it as me calling you a racist I apologize and assure you that at no point was that my intention. As far as I can tell you do not strike me as racist .. you just refuse to see things from another cultures view point. That does not make you racist at all. Its a common thing that people find it difficult to see other peoples perspective on things. Hell alot of the time even I dont (or refuse to) see things from anothers view point. That does not make me racist just human.

On the other hand I make a point of trying to see things from others view points and trying to take on board another cultures ideals and messages .. not because I agree with everything they say or think .. simply because it helps me understand them and try to reason / debate with them on a more sound footing.

As for the proof of sex thing .. sure a webcam + Photo ID is not 100% foolproof scammer free .. but its a step towards what they seem to want which is a verification of sex.

The real discussion here should not be that this company wants a verification of sex from female gamers. It should be WHY does the company want that verification. Thats the real story here. The OP of course was just looking for a decent post count for his article and never really bothered to look past the sensationalism of "Chinese game Co. Wants a look at your pussy!!*

Sure if this had been an article I'd expect some research into it's purposes. The problem is, this was not an article this was an opinion. Understanding their culture is pretty much irrelevant to the discussion. Also say I did understand their culture which i do to an extent, and yes i know all about my countries relationship with china. If there's anything to note it's that their culture is about 100 times more productive than ours. That again is irrelevant to the discussion.

Maybe you're not calling people racist, you are implying ignorance in the worst sense of the word. Simply because people are doing what they do (express opinions). That in and of itself is short sighted and not much different than what you are accusing others of.

In my opinion the OP is simply providing an opinion on their policy, regardless of their motivation. Because there are so many holes in the logic behind what they are doing.

Ok to dissect your reply.

Personally I view it as an Article. Its supported by the website and posted by one of thier paid writers. Its may or may not be the opinion of some or all of the writers here but since its a paid for piece of work, published by this site to the public it is to me, an article. Much like an article in any newspaper. As such I would expect a certian amount of research to go into said piece and would expect the author to be able to back-up thier facts with proof of some kind.

Understanding thier culture as a whole is indeed irrelivent to the article. However understanding thier culture in relation to the content is relivent. Understanding how the system being discussed (The proof of sex) impacts the culture and why such a measure may or may not be received within said culture has a major impact on the article. Since the system being discussed (Proof of sex) is only for the Chinese market and no other (At this time) surly if you are going to discuss that system you have to do so within the culture that it is being introduced. To discuss the system outside of that culture has little meaning unless you identify that it is a hypothetical discussion, which the writer did not do. Therefore in order to fully discuss the ramifications of such a move one much understand the culture and taboos that it is being introduced to. Transfering the system to an outside culture really holds no bearing on how it will effect the culture its introduced to since they do not share the same viewpoints. (Wow how many times can I type culture in one paragraph :p )

Neither did I call people racist or Ignorent. Ignorance means to "not know better" which is not the case here. Just because people can not or will not look at things from a different view point neither makes them racist or ignorent. Just human and stubbon. Racist is very specific and I am not suggesting anyone here is racist. Ignorance is not knowing any better and I am working under the assumption that we are all adults here and have an understanding of empathy and trying to understand how the other side feels. So its not ignorance at all (Except maby for the very small minority here have not yet developed empathy for others and indeed need to rush to a shrink ASAP and get humanized!) Being unwilling to show empathy for another is neither racist or ignorent .. its cold .. its stubbon .. its human .. and yes I am accusing people who refuse to look at the other side of the coin as this. I've even admitted that I myself am guilty of refusing to see the other side at times .. we all do it we're human.

Yes people express opinions. Much as I am here. Difference is I try (Not saying I always succeed) but I try to see the other person, Culture, whatever's, point of view before I answer. This is something the OP did not do and I see nothing from the OP but a bias rant. He never explored the other side of the coin. Bare in mind he was paid for his article so I dont view it as a single mans opinion since it was sanctioned by this website and thus they own it.

In your opinion the OP is providing an opinion. Now that would be true if he was just another poster like you an me. He however was paid for an article and hence the website here has ownership of that. Hes representing them and they have to take ownership of that. Thats beside the point tho. Even if he was a single poster his level of bias is extreem. He wrote an article with out clarfiying that it has no impact on the western market (even though he was writing the article FOR the western market) and he took no effort to interview the people directly effected by this new system. For all was know the new system was screamed for by Chinese gamers and it a welcome addition to them. All we got from the article was a scare attempt that garnered the responces the OP was hoping for .. namly *not in my game* *rubbish in the west* etc etc. Of course he hoped for these responces and a high post count ... but the bottom line is this was never about the western game market. He could have made an interesting article sparking debate about why this would be a bad thing in the west, why it was a happening in China, what cultural differences can we see from this? Instead he turned to hate-mongering about those "Crazy Chinese" and waited for his post count .. blar.

That policy is stupid, its an epic failure, it will cost a lot of money for the company. Whatever culture you are in a  Role-Playing Game is a Role-Playing Game. end of story.

A role-playing game (RPG; often roleplaying game) is a game in which the participants assume the roles of fictional characters.

Originally posted by demarc01

Originally posted by zymurgeist

---

Originally posted by TsukieU

 

 

I don't get the mentality of people reading that line and then suddenly jumping to, "Show us your goodies!". I guess that's just the mindset of America?

It's carrying out the idea to it's absurd extreme. it's a common device used  to point out how stupid something is. It shows the mindset in the United States doesn't allow such bizarre restrictions. 

My point here - this is not about the united states. This policy does not exist in the united states, there is no plan to add this policy to the united states. This is about China .. not the united states.

 
It's discriminatory, but it's also necessary where the margin of male population in the country means that a very good number of men are going to live lonely lives.  You know, since the whole government is freakishly homophobic.

Homophobia isn't necessary. In any form. Ever.  I's also not necessary for the margin of male population to be that high.

 

While on a personal level I agree with you .. thats simply not the case in China. Just because you say (and I say) its unacceptable will not make it so in China. That being said we have to play the cards dealt. Current population ratio in China 106 males to 100 women. Sounds small .. do the math on 1.3 billion. :(

Besides, we're talking about the country, that not even 50 years ago is was common practice to bind women's feet so that they couldn't travel far or run away without a man's help.

 Fifty years ago in the United States it was common practice to murder young people and bury them in swamps for registering black people to vote. We got over that. China needs to come out of it's dark ages too. They will be ridiculed until they do.
 
 

They will given time. Change is slow to come, as for ridicule .. that does not help the situation. Better to try and understand and work towards common ground rather than ridicule IMO

 

 

Yup, colored quotes are for shit. Useless method of communicating.
 

It's about our perception of China and our response to it.

Sorry I don't make special allowances for situations people create for themselves then perpetuate knowing they are wrong. The people who kill female infants know it's evil. It's a source of national shame. Yet they continue to do it. Maybe if they weren't so homophobic they would realize being homophobic is part of the problem. Being more homophobic isn't a solution to their problem.

Ridicule is the inevitable result of behaving stupidly. Eventually people catch on. They won't if everyone pretends stupidity is normal.

Originally posted by TsukieU

Originally posted by zymurgeist

 

---

Originally posted by TsukieU

 

 

I don't get the mentality of people reading that line and then suddenly jumping to, "Show us your goodies!". I guess that's just the mindset of America?

It's carrying out the idea to it's absurd extreme. it's a common device used  to point out how stupid something is. It shows the mindset in the United States doesn't allow such bizarre restrictions. 

 

Yes they do, you left out this part;

 

"Taking a webcam shot of you holding your Driver's License or other Government I.D. is a perfectly valid way of proving your Biological Sex. Quite a few dating sites require that sort of proof.

I don't get the mentality of people reading that line and then suddenly jumping to, "Show us your goodies!". I guess that's just the mindset of America?

Seeing as MMOs to the Chinese are roughly equivalent to social networking sites in the USA, I don't honestly see it as that big an issue."

 

If you are going to quote me, quote the whole thing.  Not just the bits that make your argument look better.
 
It's discriminatory, but it's also necessary where the margin of male population in the country means that a very good number of men are going to live lonely lives.  You know, since the whole government is freakishly homophobic.

Homophobia isn't necessary. In any form. Ever.  I's also not necessary for the margin of male population to be that high.

 

I think you might be confused, it's not necessary for the margin of male population to be that high...no.   But it is that high, whether it is necessary or not.

 

Oh you also did the same thing again, here let me help you and add the text you cut out;

"Honestly, it's even more discriminatory to men. This is sort of a subversive way of routing out what they view as, "homosexual, or deviant sexual behaviour". Women being discriminated against is more or less collateral damage."
 

Homophobia isn't necessary, but I see it as a smart move from a company that is trying it's best to stay on the government's good side. 

 

Keep in mind this isn't government mandated, but rather a company's policy.  It's not about human rights when it's a product's terms of use.  Even in America it's not uncommon to have restrictions on a product's terms of use similar to this.

Besides, we're talking about the country, that not even 50 years ago is was common practice to bind women's feet so that they couldn't travel far or run away without a man's help.

 Fifty years ago in the United States it was common practice to murder young people and bury them in swamps for registering black people to vote. We got over that. China needs to come out of it's dark ages too. They will be ridiculed until they do.
 

 

Yes and people still do die for such things in places in America.  You are asking for an overnight instantaneous change.  These things do not happen.

 

 

 

 

 I apologize if I left out the parts that confirms you don't get it. I could really care less what their excuse for being stupid is when they're being stupid. The excuse is itself stupid.
 

Homophobia isn't necessary at any male population ratio. The male ratio being that high not only  isn't necessary it's bioth illegal and tacitly encouraged. Such are the two faces of China. Gender idenification is a stupid policy being done for stupid reasons for stupid government people who don't even care if they do it. What could be smart about that?

People do not do such things anywhere in the United States without having the full force of the law brought down upon their heads. That was accomplished within ten years. Government policies can and do change overnight.

Originally posted by demarc01

. Period.)

 

Haha talk about taking it to the limit.

Hate to break it to you but not all the world follows your world view. Where as i do accept that there are deffinate basic human rights that has nothing to do with trying to view a decison like this from another cultures viewpoint. While I mention human rights I should point out that Guantanamo Bay is a deffinate violation of human rights .. so dont get holier than thou with me about human rights when I bet you turn a blind eye to that since suspected terrorists "dont count" k?

No, I agree with you. It's abominable. If they are guilty of anything, give them a trial, present the evidence, and let a jury decide. If you don't have enough evidence to convict, you have no right to hold them. And, certainly, no right to torture. During WW2, the Allies got valuable intelligence out of captured Nazi POW's *without* torture or inhumane treatment, so the same techniques can and will work on captured terrorists.

Accepting that different parts of the world view things differently does not mean that you have to accept "everything" that culture embraces.

But what's your formula? What's your TEST? It sounds to me like all you have is a set of whims and feelings. "I like this". "I don't like that". How do you convince someone who disagrees with you that you're drawing the line in the right place? How do you convince someone doing something you think is wrong THAT what they're doing is wrong?

How do you decide what are trivial cultural practices and what are genuine moral issues?

Since you're going to ask, I begin with one premise: We own ourselves. Everything I believe follows from that. If you dispute that premise, you must tell me first who owns you and how they took possession.

You should be careful about judging others though .. unless you have a full understanding of the situation its very difficult to put yourself in another shoes and feel total empathy for what they were going through and the situation at hand. Juse because you dont feel something is right does not make it so ... bottom line.

And just because something is "what a culture does" doesn't make it right. As the great Opus the Penguin wrote, "Just because a million people do a stupid thing, doesn't mean it's not a stupid thing."

Most people it seems cant read through Bias, so I guess I am wasting my time here. I dont want people to agree with the "prove your sex policy" or disagree with it. I want people to educate themselves, find out why they would impliment such and thing and find out its ramifications on the chinese player base and THEN draw a conclusion as to wether its a good or bad thing for the CHINESE player base (not for you personally since it has no effect on you personally) I want people to look past bias look past culture and self-educate. Should be easy with the inter-webz at your fingertips no?

Sometimes, this is valuable. Other times, it's a waste of time. Even if the Chinese like it, it's STILL a stupid thing. Americans like a lot of stupid things, too. *I* like a lot of stupid things. I mean, I spend time posting not just on Internet message boards, but on MMORPG.com, which is, let's face it, one step above 4Chan when it comes to hoping for any kind of intelligent response.

 This rule crack me up. I ONLY play with fem characters..lol.... I dont give a fuck for what those dog eaters think, they are communists...

Originally posted by greymann

Oh, please, spare me this PC nonsense.

When someone murders their daughter because she "shamed" their family by being seen with 2 square inches of skin showing, I don't want to be told, "Oh, we must be tolerant of other cultures and not impose our point of view on them." As far as I'm concerned, MY culture allows me to strangle anyone who says that with their own intestines. Don't agree? Too bad, you've already undermined any counter-argument you can make.

 

That's a retarded analogy! There's a big difference between a gaming company in china doing whatever the hell they want with their own product, which is subject to the local consumers actually making it a success, and a murderous religious group’s actions. In this case, NO. No one from another culture has the right to dictate their own ethics onto another’s entertainment products, as you suggest. I bet you have a char named Lizzy don't you?

Nope. I have never played a female character in an online game, actually, mostly because I don't want horny idiots IMing me all the time. I do sometimes play females in paper&pencil RPGs, about 25% of the time, I'd guess.

Did you, by the way, read BEYOND the paragraph you quoted? Or did you just get all internet-flamey and reply without reading the bit where I said it was not a valid comparison and that a private company has the right to make whatever stupid decisions it wants, and I have the right to say they're stupid?

I find it interesting that most people on this forum seem to think, "If someone says this is dumb, it means he wants to force people to do things his way!" I think that says a lot about the mentality of the people who post here, and it's not very flattering. It is very possible -- essential in a free society -- to completely disapprove of things some people do while accepting that they must have the freedom to do them. If it were up to me, an awful lot of things which are currently illegal, and which I personally think are immoral or self-destructive, would be legal, because even if I don't like them, I don't have the right (nor does the government, acting as my proxy) to stop them.

Hell, look at your own reply. If I support cross-gender gaming, it MUST be because I do it, right? It's very... revealing. It would seem you can't imagine supporting something on the basis of principle or philosophy. In your world, apparently, one only supports or approves what one personally does.

Fascinating. Sickening, but fascinating.

How strange... I suppose it was only a matter of time really. I greatly appreciated the references to The Might Boosh however. :)

This really should be a case by case subject matter. Forcing this on all MMO's, I don't see a point, but...

I am an avid RP'er, but I am also an avid ahem, erm, lover of women. I admit I have come to know a few ladies over the Internet on MMORPGs and made really great friends and more that way as well. That all being said I assume all male characters to be female, BUT if they are playing an RPG game they should expect for male characters to actively seek their friendship. It's what guys do, arguing that men should not try and form relationships online is just as bad as saying men should not play female characters.

The severe problem I have run into is when men promote themselves as women, even if they are a man in real life. There have been three cases in my own span of playing MMO's online in the last 14 years or so. I don't know where they get off on doing this, maybe it's just to mess with people, but it's really not enjoyable.

ERP between characters? I do not ask a character's gender unless they start to try and get to know me OOC. I leave all the in character stuff between the characters. I have found that many emotions spill over from character to out of character. I had a character in WoW that I enjoyed role-playing, he was the leader of the second largest guild of the server so he was well known, and had a girlfriend in game. We became friends outside the in game relationship, and yes she was a woman in real life and even had a boyfriend and I had a girlfriend. Long story short, I had him end the relationship and it broke her heart in real life. Not only did it break her heart it screwed up some of the in game guild stuff which aggravated me.

So, I can see why they may want to do this for their game. Maybe it is more like a dating type game, maybe they have more explicit material in the game (I know Second Life has all sorts of people in it though). Most people seem to think of an MMO as just a game with many people playing it and shouldn't care about gender, but I disagree. Gender is a very big issue in game and outside of game. Maybe they to try and keep the drama to a minimum, but the choice is theirs at it is their game. We can banter back and forth all day, but it is their property and they can do with it what they will.

I've only played one female character - and even RP'ed her too. I enjoyed giving guys a really hard time being a crazy orc warrior woman but kept her strictly out of any type of relationship. Also remember one of my tanks playing a male orc warrior was actually female underwear model, distinctly remember her from the pictures she sent me...

While I disagree with people playing opposite genders, I'm not going to force them to play their own gender...

Originally posted by Maleus666

 This rule crack me up. I ONLY play with fem characters..lol.... I dont give a fuck for what those dog eaters think, they are communists...

Dog taste good

If they want to force gender this badly they can do like some games do and set the gender to the account's gender, it will just be equally falsifiable as their webcam joke and give them less work, and even then i find it very stupid to force a gamer to choose their specific gender in RL, i like women, i like playing women characters, they look sexier, and that's bloody natural, and i'm not going to molest/flirt/secks up any players because i'm playing a game not a social network for dating, this decision to force players to choose their real gender is so <insert the degrading term that you wish here>.

Beside, who in their bloody mind would go thru all this just to play one of those copy-cat grinding fantasy games? Yea most of the games are like that, it would have to be outstandingly good to even bother, seriously, they are only cutting their community.

It's China...what can I say? 

This is a Great idea that I have often wished implemented.  I remember way back in the day, guys playing girls getting special treatment just for pretending to be a girl.  Maybe its not for every MMO, but I think a game deseigner should have the option to implement such a thing without getting flammed.  Most games have all kinds of crazy rules, and don't get half as flammed.  This is not as bad as lets say.  XP Debt or  Deleveling, this is just a flavor option and doesn't really effect game play.  Also I'd like it if the news presented was a little more objective.  I don't want to hear totally biased updates. 

Once again an authoritarian organization (the game company) attempts to tighten its fist to exercise control over people without realizing their "verfication" process is totally flawed.

Most homes have a female in them, most men know or have a female friend (gay or straight).

Simply have a female register the frickin account and sit in the video teleconference to assure the control-freaks a woman owns the account. I own MMO's but I'm not the only one in my house that uses the accounts.

Anyone with a smidgen of intelligence knows these rules are just plain silly and are easily worked around.

Remember, there's always a loophole. Cheers.

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by Stradden

This week, MMORPG.com's Jon Wood takes a shot at a recent decision by a Chinese MMO company to ban all male players who choose to play female avatars.

  Women, it appears, are free to pose as men as much as their little hearts desire.

Read Your Sex: Prove It or Lose It!

 

So let's rag on the female gender as if this is our fault.    Also, what does playing a female toon, if you're a guy, have to do with gender specific issues.    Guys have been playing female toons like forever.   Any guys here ever play Tomb Raider?  Thought so.   Nobody thought anything of that did they.    So why make a big deal out of this.   If some frakked up company in China wishes to be stupid...let them.    All this article is is sensationalism.   Come on...this is not worthy of an article.     This is kind of writing is to just get people riled up.    ::sigh::

The diminutive 'little hearts desire' was a bit precious, and 'pose' is loaded, especially in view of the tone of the rest of the article (where freedom to roleplay any (possibly silly) thing one is not inside an MMORPG was defended in sterling fashion) but aside from those trivial (probably unconscious) slips, I caught no serious hint that the Author was trying to rag on my gender in particular.

(Of course, consider that I've never read anything he's written before.)

It is sensationalistic to a degree, but then again, if we in the rest of the world do not point out where China's culture is being stupid and where and how their institutions are enforcing that stupidity, who will? Think about it. Probably not anyone in China, even those there who would like to. Maybe we owe it to everyone to complain if we feel like it, just because we (still) can.

As trivial as this seems, it is an intolerable thing. The fact that people including women who wish to play male 'toons are exempt NOW from compliance is just an oversight, easily "remedied" as in perpetrated on every client for this game as soon as someone remembers to be fair about mandating something fundamentally unfair. I'd like to be confident that the choice if not the voice of the consumer would consign the idea to the trash, but am not.

Further on the downside, the rest of the world (vs. China) probably constitutes (or soon will constitute) a minority of the market, and so it matters even less than it should what we rest think.

Originally posted by Kaelaan21

Wait ... I just thought about this for a moment. This is just another Asian MMO. So, what is all the concern about? You know that the bulk of the player base are going to have submit photos or webcam shots simular to this one:

 

No wait! you made me think about it for a moment. This is just another Asian MMO, so what's all the concern about? The male avatars are every bit as feminine as female avatars.....everyone is playing a woman.

*Don't take me seriously - just kidding*