Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by Toquio3

 

maybe im not expressing my self very well. i dont make a distinction between the chinese policies and their private companies. to me, everything inside that border shares a twisted mentality that spawns these horrible policies and business choices. yes the company is free to impede men from playing female characters. it doesnt mean they should. I shouldnt be free to deny someone something just because they are male or female, or black or white. saying you cant kill is not limiting your freedom, is ensuring everyone else has the freedom to live without fear of being killed by monsters.

 

You assume that people have a right to life.  I would say that nature says you do not.

Yeah well, we are not apes anymore. I like to think we are a bit more evolved than that. we may be pawns in nature's game, but that doesnt mean we should be pawns in our own game.

Originally posted by dterry

Originally posted by ozerinx

Originally posted by dterry

Originally posted by ozerinx

....That's like saying weren't the Indians annexed by force by the Europeans(Americans).

LOL, now who's the troll?

 

China invaded and took over Tibet and you argued that the Tibetans brought on this latest crackdown themselves. So using your own analogy... I guess you'd make a great indian fighter.

 

Personally, I agree with both the Tibetans and the Native American tribes... but at this point in time it would be alot easier to right the wrong in China then it would be to right the wrong in the US.

 

Your completely missing the point. If the Native American tribes basically protested and told US to GTFO and leave them alone how do you think US will react? Especially with other American citizens in the area being harmed by the native americans.

This was the case in Tibet. If you were China what would you do watch your citizens in Tibet be beat up on and become "inferior" people compare to the Tibetan monks?

 

I am dropping this debate unless someone want to go make a thread about this.

You are wrong... seriously... the occupancy of tribal lands in the states is hundreds of years old and made horribly complicated by intermarriage and agreements made between the US and tribal elders and a host of other issues. China has been in Tibet what - 50 years now?

 

Adn again... when did the Dali Lama sanction violence in Tibet to gain it's freedom?

 

And do you believe this about the monks? Ever heard of Manchukuo or the Marco Polo Bridge?

So Im confused here. Was it the Dalai Lama or the male native americans who wanted to roll a fem char?

Yes, I think you both totally derailed this thread and are way offtopic with your stupid politic discussion. Not to mention that its completely incoherent. No need to go into that, save it for a different thread.

Thats just ignorant.

so is saying china has more freedom then western countries.

Originally posted by rothbard

No but we don't disagree here. It's not about whether it makes good business sense or not.  The point is that you are free to try and run this kind of business in China.  Whereas in other places you will have people screaming for the police to come and force you to change your business model, or be shot.

Have you ever had to actually dealing with businesses in China?    From the experiences related by my friends who have actually gone to China and had business dealings there, EVERY business exists because it has the backing of the ruling Communist Party.     They have some connection or someone knows someone or whatever, but the businesses exist solely because the State permits it.

If you try to open a business that the Party doesn't want you to have (and it gets big enough to get their attention) then you WILL be shut down. 

Now the Communist Party in China has nothing in common with the former Soviet Communists.  The Party leaders in China often seem to be concerned with their country's best interest.   They are often concerned with ethical and moral behavior.  But never forget they are the PARTY'S morals and ethics.   And you had better follow them or you won't be doing business there.

China gives businesses exactly as much freedom as they deem fit.   And not an inch more. 

Originally posted by seabeast

Originally posted by NeverLand7

''Aurora Technology over in China has apparently decided to cut out the middleman in the equation -- they're banning any male players who play female characters, requiring players to confirm their gender via webcam in order to enforce the ruling.''

''Aurora is a subsidiary of Shanda, a company responsible for publishing Aion and Dungeons and Dragons Online in the region, which are names slightly more familiar to players on this side of the pond.''

Source : www.massively.com/2009/10/27/chinese-company-bans-gender-bending/

Pretty extreme if you ask me. For those of you males who like playing as female chars, you would be sorely out of luck in China.

 

And who is to say what is  right or wrong with what China does in their own country??

Dead students in Tiananmen square perhaps?

Personal Freedoms have a price. China is not a free country.

Originally posted by Toquio3

Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by Toquio3

 

maybe im not expressing my self very well. i dont make a distinction between the chinese policies and their private companies. to me, everything inside that border shares a twisted mentality that spawns these horrible policies and business choices. yes the company is free to impede men from playing female characters. it doesnt mean they should. I shouldnt be free to deny someone something just because they are male or female, or black or white. saying you cant kill is not limiting your freedom, is ensuring everyone else has the freedom to live without fear of being killed by monsters.

 

You assume that people have a right to life.  I would say that nature says you do not.

Yeah well, we are not apes anymore. I like to think we are a bit more evolved than that. we may be pawns in nature's game, but that doesnt mean we should be pawns in our own game.

I still require proof of social evolution of mankind...seems we have not changed since the middle ages we just have more ways to kill people.

Originally posted by rothbard

Originally posted by Toquio3

Originally posted by rothbard

Requiring some condition to be met before you are allowed to play someone's game is NOT OPPRESSION.

 

If you require a webcam to try their product, you can go out and buy one. but limiting your choices because of gender is oppression

Your choice is NOT limited.  You can play the game, or you can not play the game.  That is the choice. 

It is limiting your choices. By your rationale Jim Crow laws should be considered legitimate. In my country it is even ilegal for a restaurant to require its diners to wear a formal jacket as this would imply discrimination against the poor. Ofc different countries have different standards but that is the point of this thread. The Chinese do impose morality standards upon their citizens despite having a nominally secular government. This is a discrimination issue as it implies infringing on a customers freedom to express through his virtual persona, not because of technical considerations or reasonable standards of respect towards other players.

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by dterry

Originally posted by ozerinx

Originally posted by dterry

Originally posted by ozerinx

....That's like saying weren't the Indians annexed by force by the Europeans(Americans).

LOL, now who's the troll?

 

China invaded and took over Tibet and you argued that the Tibetans brought on this latest crackdown themselves. So using your own analogy... I guess you'd make a great indian fighter.

 

Personally, I agree with both the Tibetans and the Native American tribes... but at this point in time it would be alot easier to right the wrong in China then it would be to right the wrong in the US.

 

Your completely missing the point. If the Native American tribes basically protested and told US to GTFO and leave them alone how do you think US will react? Especially with other American citizens in the area being harmed by the native americans.

This was the case in Tibet. If you were China what would you do watch your citizens in Tibet be beat up on and become "inferior" people compare to the Tibetan monks?

 

I am dropping this debate unless someone want to go make a thread about this.

You are wrong... seriously... the occupancy of tribal lands in the states is hundreds of years old and made horribly complicated by intermarriage and agreements made between the US and tribal elders and a host of other issues. China has been in Tibet what - 50 years now?

 

Adn again... when did the Dali Lama sanction violence in Tibet to gain it's freedom?

 

And do you believe this about the monks? Ever heard of Manchukuo or the Marco Polo Bridge?

So Im confused here. Was it the Dalai Lama or the male native americans who wanted to roll a fem char?

 

Yes, I think you both totally derailed this thread and are way offtopic with your stupid politic discussion. Not to mention that its completely incoherent. No need to go into that, save it for a different thread.

It was the Dali Lama... he surely loves his ta-ta's.

Originally posted by Horusra

So if I do not agree with a political party and say that party is wrong I am now insulting them and my view should be removed by the government?  So long as it does not promote violence I believe that people have a right to an opinion and to express that opinion....

Saying something is a sin, is not exactly the same as not agreeing. From a believers standpoint , a sin is pure evil. Also, a sin is stated as fact, never as opinion. But nvm, if you dont even see that difference. Internet discussions ftl :/

Regarding the OP, so does this mean that Left 4 Dead and Left 4 Dead 2 will be banned in China because they let males players play Zoe and Rochelle?  ZOMG!  

I guess that means they will banning Tomb Raider.   And Metroid.   And Blood Rayne.   And Bayonetta.   (Actually they'll probably ban Bayonetta for other reasons lol)

What else can you expect from a country with the absurd goal of trying to control people's use of the Internet.

LOL just noticed the articles states this company has been trying to do this for TWO YEARS.

www.boingboing.net/2007/09/26/chinese-mmo-bans-ing.html

Must be working out really well for them if they're still trying to make it happen LOL.   But you gotta give them credit for being persistent!

Originally posted by dterry

Originally posted by seabeast

Originally posted by NeverLand7

''Aurora Technology over in China has apparently decided to cut out the middleman in the equation -- they're banning any male players who play female characters, requiring players to confirm their gender via webcam in order to enforce the ruling.''

''Aurora is a subsidiary of Shanda, a company responsible for publishing Aion and Dungeons and Dragons Online in the region, which are names slightly more familiar to players on this side of the pond.''

Source : www.massively.com/2009/10/27/chinese-company-bans-gender-bending/

Pretty extreme if you ask me. For those of you males who like playing as female chars, you would be sorely out of luck in China.

 

And who is to say what is  right or wrong with what China does in their own country??

Dead students in Tiananmen square perhaps?

Personal Freedoms have a price. China is not a free country.

Just dont meet a lot of any dead players online or the foums, perhaps every country should decide what is appropriate and not for their own people huh?
 

Originally posted by Alienovrlord

Regarding the OP, so does this mean that Left 4 Dead and Left 4 Dead 2 will be banned in China because they let males players play Zoe and Rochelle?  ZOMG!  

I guess that means they will banning Tomb Raider.   And Metroid.   And Blood Rayne.   And Bayonetta.   (Actually they'll probably ban Bayonetta for other reasons lol)

What else can you expect from a country with the absurd goal of trying to control people's use of the Internet.

does everyone here remember the hell journalists went though with the internet while covering the olympics?

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by Horusra

So if I do not agree with a political party and say that party is wrong I am now insulting them and my view should be removed by the government?  So long as it does not promote violence I believe that people have a right to an opinion and to express that opinion....

Saying something is a sin, is not exactly the same as not agreeing. From a believers standpoint , a sin is pure evil. Also, a sin is stated as fact, never as opinion. But nvm, if you dont even see that difference. Internet discussions ftl :/

Churches get away with a lot of bs. The Catholic church uses scripture to justify discrimination against women. But thats the reason civilized societies dont allow religion to interfere with political speech or normal democratic life. I agree, anyone is free to do whatever they want in the privacy of their home. Privacy being the key word here, you cant just start burning crosses on your front lawn and expect the neighbors to put up with it.

Originally posted by seabeast

Originally posted by dterry

Originally posted by seabeast

Originally posted by NeverLand7

''Aurora Technology over in China has apparently decided to cut out the middleman in the equation -- they're banning any male players who play female characters, requiring players to confirm their gender via webcam in order to enforce the ruling.''

''Aurora is a subsidiary of Shanda, a company responsible for publishing Aion and Dungeons and Dragons Online in the region, which are names slightly more familiar to players on this side of the pond.''

Source : www.massively.com/2009/10/27/chinese-company-bans-gender-bending/

Pretty extreme if you ask me. For those of you males who like playing as female chars, you would be sorely out of luck in China.

 

And who is to say what is  right or wrong with what China does in their own country??

Dead students in Tiananmen square perhaps?

Personal Freedoms have a price. China is not a free country.

Just dont meet a lot of any dead players online or the foums, perhaps every country should decide what is appropriate and not for their own people huh?
 

Kool, so they just want to be left alone to oppress their people? Or in the case of Tibet they just want to be left alone to oppress someone else's people?

-At least you are in good company... Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini... they all felt the same way.

But we'll let you negotiate for us... "Peace in our time" and all that, right?

Originally posted by Toquio3

Thats just ignorant.

 

so is saying china has more freedom then western countries.

Thats just stupid. (I never claimed that)

Originally posted by dterry

Originally posted by seabeast

Originally posted by dterry

Originally posted by seabeast

Originally posted by NeverLand7

''Aurora Technology over in China has apparently decided to cut out the middleman in the equation -- they're banning any male players who play female characters, requiring players to confirm their gender via webcam in order to enforce the ruling.''

''Aurora is a subsidiary of Shanda, a company responsible for publishing Aion and Dungeons and Dragons Online in the region, which are names slightly more familiar to players on this side of the pond.''

Source : www.massively.com/2009/10/27/chinese-company-bans-gender-bending/

Pretty extreme if you ask me. For those of you males who like playing as female chars, you would be sorely out of luck in China.

 

And who is to say what is  right or wrong with what China does in their own country??

Dead students in Tiananmen square perhaps?

Personal Freedoms have a price. China is not a free country.

Just dont meet a lot of any dead players online or the foums, perhaps every country should decide what is appropriate and not for their own people huh?
 

Kool, so they just want to be left alone to oppress their people? Or in the case of Tibet they just want to be left alone to oppress someone else's people?

-At least you are in good company... Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini... they all felt the same way.

But we'll let you negotiate for us... "Peace in our time" and all that, right?

so what country of dead students should be made King of gaming...or do we just do a hitler thing and allow a war to start over online gaming practices? surely such a reason for war would be new since we already lost milions of people for other reasons. And who would support such a war over gaming??
 

Originally posted by Caleveira

Originally posted by rothbard

Originally posted by Toquio3

Originally posted by rothbard

Requiring some condition to be met before you are allowed to play someone's game is NOT OPPRESSION.

 

If you require a webcam to try their product, you can go out and buy one. but limiting your choices because of gender is oppression

Your choice is NOT limited.  You can play the game, or you can not play the game.  That is the choice. 

 

It is limiting your choices. By your rationale Jim Crow laws should be considered legitimate. In my country it is even ilegal for a restaurant to require its diners to wear a formal jacket as this would imply discrimination against the poor. Ofc different countries have different standards but that is the point of this thread. The Chinese do impose morality standards upon their citizens despite having a nominally secular government. This is a discrimination issue as it implies infringing on a customers freedom to express through his virtual persona, not because of technical considerations or reasonable standards of respect towards other players.

 

No, Jim Crow laws are illegitimate for the same reason a law forbidding restaurants to require jacket, or a law forbidding discrimination, are illegitimate.  They both usurp the rights of the owner.  They both seek to transfer control of something that is already owned by someone, to someone else.  This is actual oppression.

Originally posted by rothbard

 

(...) a law forbidding discrimination, are illegitimate. (...)

thats cute.

Originally posted by Toquio3

Originally posted by rothbard

 

(...) a law forbidding discrimination, are illegitimate. (...)

 

thats cute.

yes, and true.  Forced discrimination is just as evil as forced nondiscrimination.  Discrimination is a fact of acting individuals.  Every single action you perform, no matter how small, implies a degree of discrimination.  There is always something you could of done instead.  You are always discriminating. 

Originally posted by rothbard

Originally posted by Toquio3

Originally posted by rothbard

 

(...) a law forbidding discrimination, are illegitimate. (...)

 

thats cute.

yes, and true.  Forced discrimination is just as evil as forced nondiscrimination.  Discrimination is a fact of acting individuals.  Every single action you perform, no matter how small, implies a degree of discrimination.  There is always something you could of done instead.  You are always discriminating. 

So what you're saying is, discrimination is a good thing. I understand now.

Should be interesting to see how this law gets enforced.