A lot of people are comparing Fallen Earth to Eve.

There's a higher learning curve associated with it, albeit not as high as Eve's.

Eve's a great game, and WoW belongs on the list for sure, (4+ year verteran here).

Fallen Earth was made on a shoestring budget, and although it's fairly new, it is doing it right. ><

Eve is the only one that is doing 'it' right. I haven't touched the game, but solely because I am a diehard for fantasy and can't stomach sci-fi save for Star Wars products.

'It' I define as 'developper focus on game, community, and business model'. Eve's devs are undeniably involved with a business model that uses entirely proprietary hardware despite a relatively niche subscriber base. Their devs are involved directly with the playing community both outside as well as inside their game (full-time employed economists on staff <~ this one blew my mind). And the game itself plays very unique and is 'its own' game, without clones.

Blizzard openly stated they sold out. WoW was built as a game that had the makings of all the 'it' elements in play, but the devs stated their path forward was to allow more people to see more content, aka focusing on their subscribers, aka selling out. Everything else about WoW has 'it' for sure: polished mechanics/animations, financial success/monopoly, etc.

LOTRO I haven't played nor know anyone in RL circles who does, so I will withhold comment. The fantasy genre feels bloated at present, so this title would need to do a lot to achieve minimal popular recognition.

Eve has 'it' right. WoW and LOTRO are honorable mentions.

Originally posted by Squal'Zell

In my books only 3 MMORPGs are going what it takes to succeed

Lord of the Rings Online.

World of Warcraft

EvE Online

 

 

What MMOs do you think are doing it "right"

I think your list is probably what I'd pick.  They are the ones who understood that repetitiveness is inevitable in MMO's, so a game must make those repetitive things as enjoyable as possible.

They all ALSO focused on tons of other things to do and enjoy other than grinding, and making THOSE things rewarding in some way.  Exploration deeds in Lotro and crafting... crafting instances, legendary items and their quests, etc. 

Eve gave us industry and crafting, a legit, workable free market where everything can be made, bought and sold.  For example, even skill books made by the game, you could haul off to zero sector space and sell for HUGE profit...

It's been a while since my WoW days, but I don't recall many times where I tried a certain aspect of the game and thought... "this is pointless", it was usually... "why haven't I been doing this all along???".  Same with Eve and Lotro.

Compare it to AoC, for example... crafting was near impossible at first, impractical at very least.  Before itemization, crafting was a pain; too many variants of ingredients with no real payoff in customization.  After itemization, they eased that a bit, but after a few days of trying to find the point in crafting anything, I quit.  As a result, AoC got 3 months out of me due to some pretty cool combat.  But cool combat does not an MMO make...

FE could be another of those all around, "no activity is a waste of time" MMO's, but my few days there didn't seem that way.  It just seemed a bit clunky and aimless.  Get rid of the clunk, and more people will be willing to find their way on their own in true wasteland wanderer style.

All this thread is, is for people to come and talk about the games they like.  I mean how would you even judge what "right" is?  All I see so far are people's opinions on what they are playing currently.

Originally posted by pojung

Blizzard openly stated they sold out. WoW was built as a game that had the makings of all the 'it' elements in play, but the devs stated their path forward was to allow more people to see more content, aka focusing on their subscribers, aka selling out.

That's not selling out at all.

Selling out has nothing to do with doing things that others don't like or believe in.

Selling out means that a person, company, entity starts out with one mission but due to the desire to obtain acknowledment, some reward or benefit, etc from another group or entity then change their initial mission.

You can't be a sell out if you started with a mission and ended with that mission.

If I decide, because I like it and enjoy the music, that I want to be the greatest pop star the world has ever known and I achieve that goal, that is not a selling out.

If I decide that I want to be the greatest pop star the world has ever known, but I get a lot of flack from people because my music has no great depth or musical complexity and is essentially just "fun" airplay music and I change to appease those people, even though it's not what I want, then I would be a sell out.

I've known several people who went the artsy intellectual route even though they desired to be more mainstream. I consider these people sell outs.

They sold (read changed) there initial desires becaues of what others felt they should be doing.

I have more and greater respect for someone who knows what they like and enjoy and they do it regardless of what others think over people who allow others to dictate what they should be doing because it doesn't have the depth or complexity that one "thinks" they should have.

I would have to say that I agree with the fact that WoW, LotR and EvE are very well built games and probably considered some of the most well polished or long lasting, or whatever category you want to call it.. but how can anyone say they are necessarily doing it right and some of the others out there are not.

I only state this because everyone has a diffferent opinion of what is right for them.  I personally did not care for Eve, nor LotR, and I used to play WoW a lot but now find it boring and no longer wish to play it ever again.  I have played other games as well and they all end up boring me at some point.  I am not saying they are not great games or they didn't offer something that was really good and playable at one point but eventually they did lose interest.

I guess what I am saying is that any game that has a steady fan base, provides new content, and attempts to re-polish their game over time, making it more appealing, or working out problems that the fan base has, then I would say it is a successful game.  Also going in a different direction then the standard MMO and bringing something new to the table can be a big incentive as well, allthough in most cases it generally doesn't pan out..  Thumbs up to EvE for being successful at this.

You may not personally agree with me, this is just my two cents.

Originally posted by pojung

Eve is the only one that is doing 'it' right. I haven't touched the game, but solely because I am a diehard for fantasy and can't stomach sci-fi save for Star Wars products.

'It' I define as 'developper focus on game, community, and business model'. Eve's devs are undeniably involved with a business model that uses entirely proprietary hardware despite a relatively niche subscriber base. Their devs are involved directly with the playing community both outside as well as inside their game (full-time employed economists on staff <~ this one blew my mind). And the game itself plays very unique and is 'its own' game, without clones.

Blizzard openly stated they sold out. WoW was built as a game that had the makings of all the 'it' elements in play, but the devs stated their path forward was to allow more people to see more content, aka focusing on their subscribers, aka selling out. Everything else about WoW has 'it' for sure: polished mechanics/animations, financial success/monopoly, etc.

LOTRO I haven't played nor know anyone in RL circles who does, so I will withhold comment. The fantasy genre feels bloated at present, so this title would need to do a lot to achieve minimal popular recognition.

 

Eve has 'it' right. WoW and LOTRO are honorable mentions.

LOL .. you have a STRANGE interpretation of selling out. Of course blizzard should focusing on their subs. What do you them to focus on? And i LIKE the fact that i am seeing more content.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by pojung

Eve is the only one that is doing 'it' right. I haven't touched the game, but solely because I am a diehard for fantasy and can't stomach sci-fi save for Star Wars products.

'It' I define as 'developper focus on game, community, and business model'. Eve's devs are undeniably involved with a business model that uses entirely proprietary hardware despite a relatively niche subscriber base. Their devs are involved directly with the playing community both outside as well as inside their game (full-time employed economists on staff <~ this one blew my mind). And the game itself plays very unique and is 'its own' game, without clones.

Blizzard openly stated they sold out. WoW was built as a game that had the makings of all the 'it' elements in play, but the devs stated their path forward was to allow more people to see more content, aka focusing on their subscribers, aka selling out. Everything else about WoW has 'it' for sure: polished mechanics/animations, financial success/monopoly, etc.

LOTRO I haven't played nor know anyone in RL circles who does, so I will withhold comment. The fantasy genre feels bloated at present, so this title would need to do a lot to achieve minimal popular recognition.

 

Eve has 'it' right. WoW and LOTRO are honorable mentions.

 

LOL .. you have a STRANGE interpretation of selling out. Of course blizzard should focusing on their subs. What do you them to focus on? And i LIKE the fact that i am seeing more content.

 

They didn't focus on subs.  They focused on milking those subs.

Originally posted by Mardy

All this thread is, is for people to come and talk about the games they like.  I mean how would you even judge what "right" is?  All I see so far are people's opinions on what they are playing currently.

not necessarely, by "right" i mean that they are increasing in popularity and/or are still on the up curve of their life and/or the game mechanics are well done/made and/or the goods rightout outweight the bads.

looking at the posts i cant really comment on fallen earth simply because i have not even seen what this game is like, hell, i have not even visited their website. but from what i read, it does look like an honorable mention. though i would wait and see how the patches and fixes and evolution of the game goes before i pass judgement on the game

Originally posted by sadeisinsane

I would have to say that I agree with the fact that WoW, LotR and EvE are very well built games and probably considered some of the most well polished or long lasting, or whatever category you want to call it.. but how can anyone say they are necessarily doing it right and some of the others out there are not.

I only state this because everyone has a diffferent opinion of what is right for them.  I personally did not care for Eve, nor LotR, and I used to play WoW a lot but now find it boring and no longer wish to play it ever again.  I have played other games as well and they all end up boring me at some point.  I am not saying they are not great games or they didn't offer something that was really good and playable at one point but eventually they did lose interest.

I guess what I am saying is that any game that has a steady fan base, provides new content, and attempts to re-polish their game over time, making it more appealing, or working out problems that the fan base has, then I would say it is a successful game.  Also going in a different direction then the standard MMO and bringing something new to the table can be a big incentive as well, allthough in most cases it generally doesn't pan out..  Thumbs up to EvE for being successful at this.

You may not personally agree with me, this is just my two cents.

the reason why i say these are the games that are doing it right because when you play it you dont feel like youve played that before. "this is the same sh*t all over" 

honestly the NGE is a copy of WoW with a starwars skin. that type of games are doing it "wrong" 

dare to be different and work hard and be proud and you will succeed. 

same shit different skin = doing ti wrong

@ Sovrath

That's not selling out at all.

It couldn't be more true. I understand it might not sit well with many fanbois due to the negative connotation that the term carries, but it doesn't change where they started with their product, some explicit public relations statements that they made, and where their product currently lies.

Selling out has nothing to do with doing things that others don't like or believe in.

Absolutely. On this we agree 100%. You cannot sell out if you stay true to yourself. Selling out is not a direct result of success.

Selling out means that a person, company, entity starts out with one mission but due to the desire to obtain acknowledment, some reward or benefit, etc from another group or entity then change their initial mission.

You can't be a sell out if you started with a mission and ended with that mission.

Blizzard didn't start out wanting to be a 13million subscriber mammoth. Blizzard started out making a game that took the Warcraft universe to its next stage, inviting its fans to experience the universe through the eyes of 1 character. This took on the form of evolution when you look at the RTS game that was WCII becoming an RTS with hero class game that was WCIII then the hero class only game that is WoW.

Please don't attempt to stand by the statement that Blizzard set out to be successful with subscription counts. They started out making a good game, and rode their success. In the process they figured they would change their focus from making truly 'epic' content that followed and further developed their WC storyline and instead appeal to the masses.

If I decide, because I like it and enjoy the music, that I want to be the greatest pop star the world has ever known and I achieve that goal, that is not a selling out.

It all lies with how you go about it. If i make music that caters to fans, rather than the music that bleeds through my creative mind, then I absolutely am a sell out. I won't entertain discussing an off-shoot topic of the means and the end being the same thing- that's absurd.

If I decide that I want to be the greatest pop star the world has ever known, but I get a lot of flack from people because my music has no great depth or musical complexity and is essentially just "fun" airplay music and I change to appease those people, even though it's not what I want, then I would be a sell out.

I've known several people who went the artsy intellectual route even though they desired to be more mainstream. I consider these people sell outs.

They sold (read changed) there initial desires becaues of what others felt they should be doing.

Wait, are we agreeing that Blizzard sold out? You've practically voiced the exact thing that Blizzard did. Blizzard felt that the casuals should have everything, and gave it to them. R14 and Naxx v1.0 were epic (I don't agree with the 12hr days in farming alone that these systems required) and shifted from making a good game that people could enjoy, to a game that anyone can follow.

I have more and greater respect for someone who knows what they like and enjoy and they do it regardless of what others think over people who allow others to dictate what they should be doing because it doesn't have the depth or complexity that one "thinks" they should have.

I agree wholeheartedly. Everyone in life should take in criticism and make it constructive without bending because of pressure.

Also, read Ruyn's post. He nails it in 10 words or less.

Edit: Apparently it was 11 words. My bad =P
 

 The only game in my book that has the potential to succeed (as in features not only related to dull combat) are Dawntide and Mortal Online. Wurm Online got it right as well

I fully agree that LotrO, EvE and WoW are the MMOs who are doing it "right"! Theese are the best, high quality products on the market and have healthy playerbases.

Honorable mentions to DDO who really turned itself around with Eberron Unlimited and now are up there with the big guyes. Its also very different from the rest of the fantasy MMOs and put bigg focus on grouping and depths which we dont see very often. Combat, AI and dungeons are way ahead of the rest of the industry.

Fallen earth is a solid game now but it really lacks the polish to be considered a high quality MMO (in my opinion). The combat and the mobs need ALOT of polish before its anywhere close to "right".

The Endless Forest.

It's the game you all have wanted to play, but didn't know about.

It's not a grindfest, it's not all about phat lewtz, it's not about who has the biggest e-peen...

It's about... human faced deer, running around in the woods.

You all bitch about wanting different... well, there you go. Put up or shut up.

Originally posted by Lansid

The Endless Forest.

It's the game you all have wanted to play, but didn't know about.

It's not a grindfest, it's not all about phat lewtz, it's not about who has the biggest e-peen...

It's about... human faced deer, running around in the woods.

You all bitch about wanting different... well, there you go. Put up or shut up.

different and empty, lacks content.

now please remove yourself from my awesome presence or post something intelligent :P ( teens i train take a chuckle to that phrase hehe)

Originally posted by pojung

@ Sovrath

That's not selling out at all.

It couldn't be more true. I understand it might not sit well with many fanbois due to the negative connotation that the term carries, but it doesn't change where they started with their product, some explicit public relations statements that they made, and where their product currently lies.

Selling out has nothing to do with doing things that others don't like or believe in.

Absolutely. On this we agree 100%. You cannot sell out if you stay true to yourself. Selling out is not a direct result of success.

Selling out means that a person, company, entity starts out with one mission but due to the desire to obtain acknowledment, some reward or benefit, etc from another group or entity then change their initial mission.

You can't be a sell out if you started with a mission and ended with that mission.

Blizzard didn't start out wanting to be a 13million subscriber mammoth. Blizzard started out making a game that took the Warcraft universe to its next stage, inviting its fans to experience the universe through the eyes of 1 character. This took on the form of evolution when you look at the RTS game that was WCII becoming an RTS with hero class game that was WCIII then the hero class only game that is WoW.

Please don't attempt to stand by the statement that Blizzard set out to be successful with subscription counts. They started out making a good game, and rode their success. In the process they figured they would change their focus from making truly 'epic' content that followed and further developed their WC storyline and instead appeal to the masses.

If I decide, because I like it and enjoy the music, that I want to be the greatest pop star the world has ever known and I achieve that goal, that is not a selling out.

It all lies with how you go about it. If i make music that caters to fans, rather than the music that bleeds through my creative mind, then I absolutely am a sell out. I won't entertain discussing an off-shoot topic of the means and the end being the same thing- that's absurd.

If I decide that I want to be the greatest pop star the world has ever known, but I get a lot of flack from people because my music has no great depth or musical complexity and is essentially just "fun" airplay music and I change to appease those people, even though it's not what I want, then I would be a sell out.

I've known several people who went the artsy intellectual route even though they desired to be more mainstream. I consider these people sell outs.

They sold (read changed) there initial desires becaues of what others felt they should be doing.

Wait, are we agreeing that Blizzard sold out? You've practically voiced the exact thing that Blizzard did. Blizzard felt that the casuals should have everything, and gave it to them. R14 and Naxx v1.0 were epic (I don't agree with the 12hr days in farming alone that these systems required) and shifted from making a good game that people could enjoy, to a game that anyone can follow.

I have more and greater respect for someone who knows what they like and enjoy and they do it regardless of what others think over people who allow others to dictate what they should be doing because it doesn't have the depth or complexity that one "thinks" they should have.

I agree wholeheartedly. Everyone in life should take in criticism and make it constructive without bending because of pressure.

 

Also, read Ruyn's post. He nails it in 10 words or less.

Edit: Apparently it was 11 words. My bad =P
 

I can't comment on how blizzard went in and changed their content as I don't have first hand knowledge of this.

However, from what I know, Blizzard wanted to make an online game that didnt', have what they considered, all the nonsense that other online games had at the time.

they wanted to make an mmo that had a lower barrier of entry and I believe that is exactly what they did. Toward that point, anything they do to maintain that lower barrier of entry still seems in line with what they desired to do.

All this added raid content seems to me to be their acknowledgement that there were players who wanted to play their game but who were going to blaze through their own content so they added the end game raid game.

I never said they set out to be successful with subcription counts so I take issue with your suggesting it.

As far as the analogy about making music that caters toward fans, there is no reason that that can't be a viable method of creating that music. Keep in mind that John Cage came up with a system utilizing chance and then indeterrminancy in order to create some pieces. Is throwing the I Ching sticks any better than knowing your fan base, knowing what they love about your music and giving them more?

If one loves the genre that one is creating for and has fans who have input I don't believe that it's selling out if you love giving to those fans what they desire provided that it doesn't fall against what you believe in. I use the analogy because it's exactly what I think Blizzard did, to create a game based on the world of warcraft rts, to take out some of the long drawn out gameplay, to firm up the gameplay and to give the average person a game that they can experience.

So I don't see where they have gone off track.

It seems to me that they always had a more casual player in mind.

However, i don't have access to any of the orginal world of warcraft interviews so perhaps you have information that indicates differently?

as a footnote I think there are many companies who probably think of their playerbase when considering new content. I know that in LOTRO and DDO they look toward catering to their players as much as possible.

So given the vast amount of players who play WoW it would seem that they have a vast playerbase to think about when making these chages. If those changes are in line with their overall game philosophy and it makes the game easier then so be it.

Incidentally, to set the record straight, I am no fanboi of blizzard though perhaps to a certain extent I could be considered a fan even though I don't seriously play WoW. I do think they made a good game  and it's one of the best put together games around.

And it does indeed cater to all the casual players who I know.

edit: actually I don't think I'm far off as to their wanting to cater to casuals:

IGNPC: Did tackling an MMORPG title for the first time alter your original plans for the title? Was the final product different from the original intent -- perhaps for the better -- or is WoW the achievement of that initial idea?

Jeffrey Kaplan: I think World of Warcraft has captured much of our original vision for the game. Like all Blizzard games, we wanted something that was easy to learn, yet hard to master. The demographics of our player base are proof that we succeeded in accomplishing this goal. We have some very dedicated, skilled, hardcore MMO veterans logging in nightly. Yet at the same time, there are thousands of players who have never played an MMO who are playing right there alongside of the vets.

http://pc.ign.com/articles/586/586256p1.html 

Though to be fair they also mention in another early interview that the experienced players are the "Vanguard to promoting the game to their friends"

Jonric: From early on, you've stated that one of your goals is to have a simple learning curve, with the game being easy to learn but difficult to master. What are the keys to making this happen and the main hurdles to be overcome? And how satisfied are you with your progress? 

Mark Kern: First and foremost, we try to make the game deep and rich enough to appeal to experienced gamers because they are the vanguard for promoting the game to their friends, who may be more casual gamers. Now, the things we do for casual gamers are also of benefit to the hardcore. Nobody wants to have an interface that is cryptic or gets in your way as you play the game, and we feel that players want good information about how spells, abilities and classes work without having to go to a website to figure it out. We also wanted to make sure that we brought the same ease of use and transparency to the game controls and mechanisms that our other games enjoy, to the World of Warcraft. Additionally, we wanted to make sure that players had a clear sense of what to do in the world, with lots of quest-driven content and cool locations in the world that reward exploration.

As for how satisfied we are with the results, we often look to how team members and their families are reacting to the game right now. We all play from home, and people were playing so much that we eventually had to ask them to limit the hours of they spent playing the alpha. We even have family members (casual gamers) who play from home, and who sometimes log more hours than the developers.

http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/432/432771p1.html

Jonric: What will make World of Warcraft appealing for the current online gamer community, and also for new online players? 

Bill Roper: The core idea behind World of Warcraft is to create a game that is easy to get into and simple to play so we can stay focused on creating a rich and complex world that players can help evolve over the course of time. We want this game to be an ongoing experience for players of all abilities and levels of experience, regardless of whether they have 30 minutes or 30 hours to dedicate to a single play session.

http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/359/359998p3.html

There are players who do insist that WoW is indeed difficult to master. I don't know if there is any truth to this as I've never played beyond a low lvl 36 over the years I've played WoW. But from my seat in the bleachers it seems that they want the game accessilble to all types of players and will continue to allow casuals a place alongside their more experienced players.

 

LotR has some good PvP too, my favourite MMO to date.

Fallen Earth without a Doubt ..

WoW

Lotro

Eve

EQ 2

Fallen Earth

EVE

LOTRO

Maybe Vanguard is sneaking back in (Yea I know, flame away)

*Edit

Yeesh rereading my list I am def burned out on the themepark style MMO

Out of all the three games mentioned, I have to admit that I've only played one of them: EVE Online. I would have to agree with your assessment of EVE, and of how it is of the games that is really doing it right. I really aplaud the way they've gone the classless route; there so much you can actually do in that game that it literally boggles the mind. It's so different from some of the other MMOs that I've played, because in those games, you have to follow a set path with little or no deviation, while EVE actually gives you the chance to chose a career.

That being said, there's also one other game that I would like to add to the list, and that is Guild Wars. I love the fact that the game is extremely polished as well, and the scenery is beautiful even when not maxed. Moreover, the battle system is also the most fun I've come across so far, and it's the most balanced game out at the moment. It's payment model is also revolutionary, because it bypassed the traditional subscription and cash shop route, instead chosing the B2P route, which, while more risky, did pay off in the end.