Yeah i've had this happen in the games i have played/currently play.  when it first happened and the group told me no because i would ruin their xp i was like okay... This actually made me stay solo for awhile, i figured why bother to even try and get into a group just to get denied for a stupid reason, well stupid to me.

I was like 2 levels higher then many in the group so -shrugs-  anyways i've mostly solo'd anymore, while there are some decent people out there, its just worth the time to weed through all of the others.  So i've had to question why i even bother playing mmo's anymore, i do want to group, i don't want to deal with all the crap attitudes people seem to display anymore..meh

OP don't sweat it, its nice to see a few good people out there still playing, hopefully you won't get turned away from grouping like i have.

Hell i can't even bring myself to help another player i see in trouble anymore, because i have been yelled at so many times for no reason, i guess they wanted to die -shrugs-

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Ihmotepp 

It's a bad game design if you want a game for PUGS.

Good game design if you want to solo to the level cap, then raid.

It's not really fun to do things the hard way for no reason.

In other words the "fun" of grouping isn't that much fun when you realize the game is penalizing you for it.

Like, it's "fun" to go to the beach. But then you find there is a 100 dollar fine for going to the beach that day. Suddenly it's not that fun any more.

 Nothing wrong with solo friendly games like Aion. Certainly WoW shows this is a very successful model.

 

This argument always irks me.  Groupers complain about those massive grouping penalities when in fact most of the time those penalties are trivial and more often then not fully compensated by the increased speed in which you get XP.

It's like you go to the beach and find that there is a $10 entry fee that is actually deductible from your taxes.  If you do not actually like the beach then you will complain and go do something else. 

It always looks to me like the grouping advocates using that argument don't actually have fun grouping but are only in it for the fast XP and the smallest barrier will turn them off from the whole experience.

10 dollars means different things to different people. It's a lot for someone unemployed, it's not worth picking up off the floor for Bill Gates. Maybe I didn't make enough to pay taxes, so the fact that it's "deductible" would mean nothing to me.

"massive' and "trivial" are subjective terms.

There is not perfect objective measurement for this.

What is trivial to you, is not to me, and what is massive to you is not to me, and  vice a versa.

You can't tell me what is fun for me. The moment you start down that path you've stopped communicating.

You have to accept that I might enjoy things you do not.

 Hmm Ive played aion and soloing can get you more exp, i dont know what his problem was but hey more exp for you :)

A bit off topic perhaps, but one of the reasons games like Left 4 Dead do not have this problem is because there is no material rewards. Players play to have fun in the game and to get beter at it. When getting better at games require loot treadmills, it creates artificial barriers that separate the community. In multiplayer shooter games, you know who is on your team and the better you work together, the better you'll do. It seems like alot of MMO players these days are just in it for themselves. I'm not saying one way is right or wrong, just commenting.

Sad to say, in most games, there will always be jerks. Of course, some games would have a higher jerk ratio, but still, they are there in most games. It just depends on the luck of the draw I guess. Personally, I tend to not give out group invites, but if someone invites me into a group, I will say and help, even if I have already finished my quest. Sadly, most people would leave the group after they finished the number of mobs they killed, regardless of whether the group has people who have or have not finished their mobs yet.

Originally posted by Ravanos

actually its more like this you and 5 of your friends negotiate to move someone out of their big house. the homeowner tells you to move all the major appliances and all of the furniture in the place. in turn he pays each of you 100 bucks.

the homeowner then turns around and tells me to take the pillows to his bed and move them to the new place, and gives me 100 bucks for doing so as well.

wouldn't you be pissed? and if not you're a liar.

 

Did you just equate clicking a mouse and tapping keys on a keyboard to moving appliances?

Really..?

Originally posted by Toquio3

Im playing Aion atm, and I just had an experience literally 2 minutes ago I felt I had to share. I was soloing to my hearts desire when this gladiator came up to me and asked me to group up for a quest. I didnt have the quest, but he needed the mobs around dead, and I was there so I decided to help him out (there goes people's theories that soloers are phycopaths). Anyway, We killed 2 mobs, just 2, and he said 'sorry, need more XP' and left the group.

Now keep in mind that I was helping him out, and it was his request to begin with. I felt something very wrong had just happened. What do you guys think about it?

At first i thought the negative,another simplistic no brain peed leveler,but then it hit me lol.

Perhaps this player meant,he needed more xp to be able to fight the mobs needed for the quest.He may have been judging his chances based on the mobs you killed and decided he was not strong enough.Players often speak in broken phrases and don't really tell it as it is al lthe time,so this is just my thoughts rather than being totally cynical :D.

"It seems like a lot of MMO players these days are just in it for themselves."

If you take a step backwards... and look at the social factor of MMO's and go even further to compare it to RL, you realize something. It's VERY... f'ing... similar.

Most people could really give two shits... about helping you, about what your problems are, and about what you "need". Now compound the situation, by distancing human empathy by adding "the grind". If you HELP people, you are punished in your "grind" for self achievement. If that isn't deterrent enough, then you throw in the actual human interaction from the "detached majority that are only playing for themselves." They have quests/need ress'd or help, you give it... and you get nothing in return. Maybe a "k done thx" *your group has been disbanded* if you're lucky. But again... it's like this in the REAL WORLD too... hold a fucking door open for someone and watch what they say or how they react. 1-2/10 you get a "thanks"... most walk in as if you were expected to do that for them in the first place.

Has nothing to do with "solo" or "group" mentality, it's human-f'ing-nature that in turn are compounded by the problem that MMO's punish grouping rather than promote it.

Originally posted by Lansid

 But again... it's like this in the REAL WORLD too... hold a fucking door open for someone and watch what they say or how they react. 1-2/10 you get a "thanks"... most walk in as if you were expected to do that for them in the first place.

Has nothing to do with "solo" or "group" mentality, it's human-f'ing-nature that in turn are compounded by the problem that MMO's punish grouping rather than promote it.

 

Where do you live, anyway? It's rare that I don't get a thank you when I hold or open a door for someone.

Anonymity breeds assholery. The more people in a society, the less likely you will meet the same person again, leaving those who are so inclined to be jerks.

Central Ohio... ironically, the most "thanks" or nods I get are from people 20'ish and under.

Originally posted by Lansid

Central Ohio... ironically, the most "thanks" or nods I get are from people 20'ish and under.

 I grew up in ohio. Spent 12 years in new york. Live in Texas now. I know EXACTLY what he is talking about.

Wher ei work ...a few weeks ago, a customer left our shop with his credit card on the counter. I picked it up and sprinted out the door to catch him and return it.

His response

"oh"

literally.

Originally posted by Lansid

Central Ohio... ironically, the most "thanks" or nods I get are from people 20'ish and under.

Interesting. Perhaps things are getting better there, then.

Good manners are a social disease - the more you touch others, the more likely they will become 'infected'. It's not easy sometimes, but I try hard to reinforce good behaviour in others. Setting a good example is all that we can do. We are all role models.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Ravanos

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by Toquio3

Im playing Aion atm, and I just had an experience literally 2 minutes ago I felt I had to share. I was soloing to my hearts desire when this gladiator came up to me and asked me to group up for a quest. I didnt have the quest, but he needed the mobs around dead, and I was there so I decided to help him out (there goes people's theories that soloers are phycopaths). Anyway, We killed 2 mobs, just 2, and he said 'sorry, need more XP' and left the group.

Now keep in mind that I was helping him out, and it was his request to begin with. I felt something very wrong had just happened. What do you guys think about it?

 

It points out the differing mentalities above players.  You are able to group just for fun, to help someone out... while others out there will only do it if they get something out of it, if they're bribed with more loot or more XP.  Given the choice, I'd much rather group up with you than with the other guy.

Ditto.

Shame so many players are like the gladiator you ran into, (time to wax poetic about the good old days) but people used to be more like you back in the day.

Now the attitude is similar to what you experienced and frequently transcends into the end game where you can't be part of guild/group/raid unless you meet minimum reqs.  Part of this is due to game design of course, if people don't have the right gear they can't survive with the group, but part of it is just being self-serving and not worrying about the greater gaming community overall.

Shrug it off and with luck your next group experience will be better.

 

 

 

its also bad game design, the hard split encourages soloing and not doing anything duo. I play these games for fun but i also like to be rewarded for my effort. i would have no problem throwing groups together with randoms but why would i when the hard split doesn't reward me for doing so.

I blame the solofication of MMOs.

 

It's a bad game design if you want a game for PUGS.

Good game design if you want to solo to the level cap, then raid.

It's not really fun to do things the hard way for no reason.

In other words the "fun" of grouping isn't that much fun when you realize the game is penalizing you for it.

Like, it's "fun" to go to the beach. But then you find there is a 100 dollar fine for going to the beach that day. Suddenly it's not that fun any more.

 Nothing wrong with solo friendly games like Aion. Certainly WoW shows this is a very successful model.

That is confusing argument.  Do you want to group for the sake of grouping and social interactions, or do you want to group just because you expect better loot or xp or other gains?

If fun is derived just from grouping, go join a group, don't argue about relative gains and losses vs soloing.  You got your group, if people want you, that is.

If fun is purely minimax calculation, then group if it pay more, and solo the next moment the pay scale shifts.

If you want both, yes you seems to want both, then you go find a game that offers that.

I do not see how that has anything to do with good design bad design.  Some people play very casual with irregular online time and inability to commit to anyone before hand or even during online.  They can and may go afk anytime.  For such people, PUG is an option.  For them PUGgable games are what they want, games like old EQ or FF is simply not viable.  Yeah they can play solo games, but then PUG offers some social interaction without the need to resort to raid or attention heavy games.  WAR and WoW are games with such options.  In WAR, we just move to a zone, see a PQ and go pew pew or hack&slash.  We do not even need an invite.

Pretty much... I'd guess New York would be much more impersonal of a place to live more so than where I do... I can only compare it to having stayed in Toronto and Mexico City.... both of which were huge and didn't feel much different from city life... just bigger cities. Now depending on where in Ohio you are, peoples reactions can improve. Instead of a "look by you as you didn't exist" kind of reaction you get in populated cities... you can get the "nudge/bump you're in the way" reaction, or the "look you up and down like you're a moron" look in rural areas.

So when I play MMO's I'm really not bothered by all the asshatery, rudeness, ect. I expect most of them TO be that way... I just try to find a group of people that I get along with, and branch out from there.

Group content & solo content has to separate because it is not possible to tune well for both.

As someone has pointed out, in WOW, you level FASTER if you group and go to dungeons at your level. However, that .. sometimes is difficult if there is no one at your level. I have seen regularly people are offering money to have people run them through lower level dungeons.

The fix is coming though. WOW is adding a cross-realm LFG tool for dungeons and so i expect it is more viable to do low level dungeon (at least you can queue it up and wait, without wasting time shouting in trade) once it goes life.

It is silly to expect people to do anything but advancing their characters. There are obviously helpful people out there but I don't think we should expect everyone to be so. It is a game where people come to have fun ... even the more selfish people are customers. Just don't play with them .. i dunno what is the problem?

The other thing is that you can always stick playing/chatting with your frds & guiidies. I don't see why there is a need to play with strangers all the time.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Group content & solo content has to separate because it is not possible to tune well for both.

As someone has pointed out, in WOW, you level FASTER if you group and go to dungeons at your level. However, that .. sometimes is difficult if there is no one at your level. I have seen regularly people are offering money to have people run them through lower level dungeons.

The fix is coming though. WOW is adding a cross-realm LFG tool for dungeons and so i expect it is more viable to do low level dungeon (at least you can queue it up and wait, without wasting time shouting in trade) once it goes life.

It is silly to expect people to do anything but advancing their characters. There are obviously helpful people out there but I don't think we should expect everyone to be so. It is a game where people come to have fun ... even the more selfish people are customers. Just don't play with them .. i dunno what is the problem?

The other thing is that you can always stick playing/chatting with your frds & guiidies. I don't see why there is a need to play with strangers all the time.

You just about had a revelation there, then you lost it. Designs based on soloing seems to resonate with and attract those types of players doesn't it?  That doesn't mean that the helpful people aren't there, I've met plenty of nice and helpful people in WoW, but I'm usually being overrun by asshats.

Originally posted by heremypet 

You just about had a revelation there, then you lost it. Designs based on soloing seems to resonate with and attract those types of players doesn't it?  That doesn't mean that the helpful people aren't there, I've met plenty of nice and helpful people in WoW, but I'm usually being overrun by asshats.

That's purely your own personal experience.  The most helpful and social people I have encountered in MMOs were most definetly 'soloers' as this forums defines these things.  It was only when I switched my focus to group content that I encounterd the drama, asshattery and disloyalty that make people quit MMOs.  I will gladly argue that proper casual solo-play design attracts the more mature people who appreciate what they have because of their limited playtime.

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by heremypet 

You just about had a revelation there, then you lost it. Designs based on soloing seems to resonate with and attract those types of players doesn't it?  That doesn't mean that the helpful people aren't there, I've met plenty of nice and helpful people in WoW, but I'm usually being overrun by asshats.

That's purely your own personal experience.  The most helpful and social people I have encountered in MMOs were most definetly 'soloers' as this forums defines these things.  It was only when I switched my focus to group content that I encounterd the drama, asshattery and disloyalty that make people quit MMOs.  I will gladly argue that proper casual solo-play design attracts the more mature people who appreciate what they have because of their limited playtime.

I don't doubt what you say, but your experiences are definitely contradictory to mine.

Originally posted by heremypet

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by heremypet 

You just about had a revelation there, then you lost it. Designs based on soloing seems to resonate with and attract those types of players doesn't it?  That doesn't mean that the helpful people aren't there, I've met plenty of nice and helpful people in WoW, but I'm usually being overrun by asshats.

That's purely your own personal experience.  The most helpful and social people I have encountered in MMOs were most definetly 'soloers' as this forums defines these things.  It was only when I switched my focus to group content that I encounterd the drama, asshattery and disloyalty that make people quit MMOs.  I will gladly argue that proper casual solo-play design attracts the more mature people who appreciate what they have because of their limited playtime.

I don't doubt what you say, but your experiences are definitely contradictory to mine.

That's the problem with anectodal evidence.   Because you experienced something, you are more convinced of its validity as you see it.  When my experience of the same event is different, your conclussions seem really weird to me and seem to contradict reality as I see it.  It's what can be refered to as a 'failure to agree on reality'.

So when someone says that the soloers are anti-social then I have to disagree because the soloers I deal with all the time are quite social.  Maybe my experiences are atypical of the general population or maybe the other person is talking out of his ass. 

Similarly, people love to complain how bad Pickup Groups are and how horrible their experiences in PuGs are.  Myself, I do PuGs frequently enough and have mostly pleasant experiences.  The bad PuGs usually break up real quick and rarely leave a strong impression on me.  Am I just lucky or maybe too forgiving or are the complainers just too easily enraged and blow things out of proportion?

MMOs are made to solo, so this sort of mentality is not surprising. The need for XP is a solo game concept that sits like some odd beast at the heart of MMO's. MMO design should favour co-operation not be against it.