Originally posted by Forumfall

Hehe I see... a bunch of tough guys and heroes here. Suure....

To bad evrything I have seen in real life indicates something else.

 Don't get me wrong, one should call police or so but going inbetween these days just gets yourself killed.

Where do you live that people do not respond to these things happening?  I am honestly in shock that you could even think such a thing. I am not a " tough guy" I am a petite female, and it would honestly kill me more to sit and watch something  like this happen and NOT do anything rather than  take the " whatever happens, happens" approach and do what I feel is right. Wreckless ? maybe, but I would rather do something than nothing at all.

I do not understand how people take the " victim" mindset.  People that commit these crimes are truly cowards preying upon someone who they view as weaker than themselves.  I do not see the " danger " that imprisons some from action as being a deterrent, to me that is cowardice plain and simple. You do not have to be a hero to do something, no you just have to try and help. That is not what makes a hero, no, that is just having the common decency as a human being to stop somone else from suffering.

I have seen REAL heros, I am no" Hero". If I was a Hero I would still be in the ER at Parkland. I would have been able to put my own feelings aside and prevent myself from vomiting so that I could focus on saving lives. Real Heros can save lives day in and day out and not let it get to them so they can keep doing it.  I am no Hero, just a girl who  tries to do the best I can. What are you? 

I can't say I am too surprised by the whole incident. Frankly the first thing that the people told me, when I started working in the US was to always look only my own business and even if I see something "out of place" to just notify the police and not bother any more.

There was a study a few years back though in Europe that has shown how differently people are handling such situations. They had a couple of actors to emulate a rape/harassment scene.

Northern countries were more passive either avoiding the scene or just calling the police and leaving, while southern Europe (italy, Greece, spain etc), people were calling the police and were actually getting involved. (I remember the poor guy that played the assaulter frantically explaining stuff.

Personally I believe the bigger the city the colder the people become to such incidents.

Originally posted by Tymoris

I can't say I am too surprised by the whole incident. Frankly the first thing that the people told me, when I started working in the US was to always look only my own business and even if I see something "out of place" to just notify the police and not bother any more.

There was a study a few years back though in Europe that has shown how differently people are handling such situations. They had a couple of actors to emulate a rape/harassment scene.

Northern countries were more passive either avoiding the scene or just calling the police and leaving, while southern Europe (italy, Greece, spain etc), people were calling the police and were actually getting involved. (I remember the poor guy that played the assaulter frantically explaining stuff.

Personally I believe the bigger the city the colder the people become to such incidents.

I agree, it is direct result of culture and social grooming. In Greece, they fight for what they believe in, same as where I live.  It is socially not acceptable to stand around and do nothing, where in some areas it is expected. This is a direct result of  what society finds as appropriate behavior in those areas. This happens because society allows it to happen. If they quit teaching people to " not interfere" this will change, and we will see less of these crimes.
 

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by Forumfall

Hehe I see... a bunch of tough guys and heroes here. Suure....

 

To bad evrything I have seen in real life indicates something else.

 

Don't get me wrong, one should call police or so but going inbetween these days just gets yourself killed.

 

That's bullshit.   This kind of talk has gone on since humans have had the ability to talk and communicate.  I have heard that kind of talk before and it makes me want to smack the living shit out of people.    You wish to be a coward...then you can be one.    I was not raised that way when it comes to things like this - I would have called the police and said there are some boys here that are going to get hurt - you better come quick.   Then I would have grabbed the nearest stick I could have found to use as a club and then  I would have been cracking skulls.    God this pisses me off when someone can sit and say that I or they would not get involved because I might get hurt....but the girl getting raped she'll be fine...just fine....don't help you might get hurt - are you fucking kidding me!     Sorry  I was not brought up that way.   Seriously..it is not in me - I react - I don't just stand around like a mouth breathing imbecile.

...as my friend has said many times....maybe an astroid should hit the earth...because the human race isn't worth saving.   Fucking waste of air.

Don't lose hope Teala,  not everyone has become worthless. Maybe you should move to my neck of the woods.. you would like it here.
 

This is what we have been working on for the past few weeks we were able to pull this off in time:

www.nbcdfw.com/news/health/Just_Couldn_t_Wait_for_Christmas_Dallas-Fort_Worth.html

Originally posted by deviliscious

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by Forumfall

Hehe I see... a bunch of tough guys and heroes here. Suure....

 

To bad evrything I have seen in real life indicates something else.

 

Don't get me wrong, one should call police or so but going inbetween these days just gets yourself killed.

 

That's bullshit.   This kind of talk has gone on since humans have had the ability to talk and communicate.  I have heard that kind of talk before and it makes me want to smack the living shit out of people.    You wish to be a coward...then you can be one.    I was not raised that way when it comes to things like this - I would have called the police and said there are some boys here that are going to get hurt - you better come quick.   Then I would have grabbed the nearest stick I could have found to use as a club and then  I would have been cracking skulls.    God this pisses me off when someone can sit and say that I or they would not get involved because I might get hurt....but the girl getting raped she'll be fine...just fine....don't help you might get hurt - are you fucking kidding me!     Sorry  I was not brought up that way.   Seriously..it is not in me - I react - I don't just stand around like a mouth breathing imbecile.

...as my friend has said many times....maybe an astroid should hit the earth...because the human race isn't worth saving.   Fucking waste of air.

Don't lose hope Teala,  not everyone has become worthless. Maybe you should move to my neck of the woods.. you would like it here.
 

This is what we have been working on for the past few weeks we were able to pull this off in time:

www.nbcdfw.com/news/health/Just_Couldn_t_Wait_for_Christmas_Dallas-Fort_Worth.html

Teala seems like she would fit in nicely here in Washington state. She is a GRANOLA GIRL after all. 

I think some people here saying they would intervene are either just saying so because they are safe behind a computer, or live very sheltered lives in areas that are relatively safe.

I live in Chicago, granted it's the middle-upper class suburbs, but I still drive through and hear about the gang violence that goes on here.
 

It'd be incredibly stupid to intervene when a mass beating or rape is going on.  You aren't going to accomplish anything other than getting yourself beat/killed/raped and not helping whoever the victim in the first place was.  Seems like people just want to be heroic, even though calling the police would just as heroic without going through the pain/death.

So unless you have 20-30 friends of your own ready to go up against weapons (that they may or may not have) I'd suggest calling the cops ASAP and memorizing faces and liscense plate numbers.

Originally posted by Sabiancym

I think some people here saying they would intervene are either just saying so because they are safe behind a computer, or live very sheltered lives in areas that are relatively safe.

 

I live in Chicago, granted it's the middle-upper class suburbs, but I still drive through and hear about the gang violence that goes on here.
 

 

It'd be incredibly stupid to intervene when a mass beating or rape is going on.  You aren't going to accomplish anything other than getting yourself beat/killed/raped and not helping whoever the victim in the first place was.  Seems like people just want to be heroic, even though calling the police would just as heroic without going through the pain/death.

So unless you have 20-30 friends of your own ready to go up against weapons (that they may or may not have) I'd suggest calling the cops ASAP and memorizing faces and liscense plate numbers.

What I am amazed at is that you have been so socially conditioned into inaction that  you have a hard time believing this is how other people live. I have not just " drove through" gang violence. My grandmother lives in the "grove" the house across the street from hers is a boarded up crack house. I lived with her for 2 years.   You have been socially groomed to think the police are here to handle everything, where as some of us were " groomed" to take care of things ourselves.  The police do not even show up until daylight in the grove, it does NO GOOD to call them, they will not show up until the shooting stops. You cannot carry a police officer around in your pocket, the only person who is going to save you is yourself. The sooner you realize this the better.
 

 just a quick question, should a person with a wife and kids to take care of, intervene in something like this or worse? there are a lot of things that pass through a person mind before they act, i know a lot will say they just react but i don't really believe that.  Your mind may make a decision fast but i think a person still thinks about all the things that could happen in that split second.

I"m not gonna speak on what i would do just yet, but i do know in my home town the police ask people to call them, not to interfere, at my job we are forbidden to interfere if something bad like this happens in our business, not saying rape but other bad things, we could get fired for it, with jobs hard to get now a days, people are being forced to take care of theselves and their families first and foremost.  

i may comment on what i would do later on.

As for this story, there wasn't a fight or flight attitude or anything similar, these people went and watched it period.  on the updated part of this story they said they have 5 under arrest, i'm glad and i hope they get everyone else that did it, sad thing is it seems they have a stupid law that won't allow them to charge the people that watched.  She is 15, the law they say says they can only charge people who witness and do not report if the victim is 14 and younger...very stupid as far as im concerned.

Oh yeah 3 of them guys were underage, they will be tried as adults and they are all looking at life in prison, while i understand both sides of the issue on capital punishment, my personal feeling would be they don't deserve to live, harsh, but i think its fitting for the crime, my belief anyways.

As for people watching, i won't call anyone a coward if they don't put their life on the line for someone else, there are lots of reasons they may not wish too, people need to be understanding that not everyone can just jump into something bad happening, they just don't have it in them.  I would at least hope they would call the cops and maybe call out for help though.

hmm..

.

Originally posted by deviliscious

Originally posted by Sabiancym

I think some people here saying they would intervene are either just saying so because they are safe behind a computer, or live very sheltered lives in areas that are relatively safe.

 

I live in Chicago, granted it's the middle-upper class suburbs, but I still drive through and hear about the gang violence that goes on here.
 

 

It'd be incredibly stupid to intervene when a mass beating or rape is going on.  You aren't going to accomplish anything other than getting yourself beat/killed/raped and not helping whoever the victim in the first place was.  Seems like people just want to be heroic, even though calling the police would just as heroic without going through the pain/death.

So unless you have 20-30 friends of your own ready to go up against weapons (that they may or may not have) I'd suggest calling the cops ASAP and memorizing faces and liscense plate numbers.

What I am amazed at is that you have been so socially conditioned into inaction that  you have a hard time believing this is how other people live. I have not just " drove through" gang violence. My grandmother lives in the "grove" the house across the street from hers is a boarded up crack house. I lived with her for 2 years.   You have been socially groomed to think the police are here to handle everything, where as some of us were " groomed" to take care of things ourselves.  The police do not even show up until daylight in the grove, it does NO GOOD to call them, they will not show up until the shooting stops. You cannot carry a police officer around in your pocket, the only person who is going to save you is yourself. The sooner you realize this the better.
 

So what exactly were you alone going to do to a group of guys raping a girl that will make them stop.  Besides get raped yourself?

Explain that to me?

Originally posted by Praetoriani

Originally posted by deviliscious

Originally posted by Chieftan

Originally posted by Enkindu

Originally posted by Chieftan

Originally posted by Teala

All I have to say is I hope they find the bastards that did this.  The police had better not let up on the investgation until they have all of them caught and they better find the people that witnessed it and charge them too.   They are just as guilty as those that did it in my eyes.

 

My advice would be instead of wasting your hate on this that maybe it would be better to walk outside into your community and do something to improve it. 

Once you've accomplished that, since it's so easy and clear cut to do the right thing, come back and tell us how the witnesses should be judged.

You make this statement knowing NOTHING about Teala and what she does in her community.
 

Also this statement is ridiculous.. Anyone that participates in or stands around and watches a gang rape should be shot.  That's a pretty straightforward situation.

That article tells us next to nothing about the situation.  It may sound like its so simple and straightforward but there's a reason why we don't put 15 year olds in charge of jack squat.  They're irresponsible and immature and are generally known for not doing anything right without adult supervision.

People get so worked up about situations they know next to nothing about and then they beat their chest and talk about what they would do in that situation.  If there was a shred of truth to that we wouldn't need cops and judges.  Everybody would just do the right thing all the time and everything would resolve itself.  Some people just need to get out and experience the world a little bit before they open their mouths.

 

Knowing that Teala was an Exotic Dancer, I am sure she has had to " fend  for herself" as well.  Some of us have expieranced brutal situations first hand and cannot understand how others could just sit their with their heads up their asses while something like this happens.  I WAS violently raped when I was 13 by a 24 yr old adult, and yes because I fought I was hurt more, but my fighting stopped him from what he was doing at the time.  Some of us know very well how we would react in a situation.Some of us have expieranced more of life than we ever wanted to. Some of us know what we can and cannot live with. It is a choice you make on how you live your life.
 

 

I was a police officer (in training, but I walked the streets in uniform) in Amsterdam for a year before I decided to go back to university. I got into many situations many would not even think of, some of which I'd rather not talk about and my closest friends and family don't even know about. That said, these personal anecdotes of Teala, you and some I and many others here could come up with show character, but are absolutely not representative of human instinct/psychology/sociology as a whole. And yes, I believe in the end that most of us are still herd animals to a degree. It's easy to shrug off entire fields of science (as much as I criticise social psychology and sociology myself), but fact of the matter is that those academic fields and their research hold grains of truth, and rather large ones at that.

And, again - we've seen a news report of a few paragraphs, and vague third party information at best. I don't possibly believe any of us can draw much information from that as to what happened, much less condemn the actions of the bystanders. I see it happen too much.

That.  Most people, not just kids, don't know how to deal with violent situations.  That's why we pay trained policemen to sort this stuff out.

Women get irate over this but I'd like to see how many of them have driven right by someone stranded on the highway or watched a drunk person get behind the wheel of a car.  There's alot of crimes and accidents that would never happen if most people were more proactive by nature.

Originally posted by Sabiancym

Originally posted by deviliscious

Originally posted by Sabiancym

I think some people here saying they would intervene are either just saying so because they are safe behind a computer, or live very sheltered lives in areas that are relatively safe.

 

I live in Chicago, granted it's the middle-upper class suburbs, but I still drive through and hear about the gang violence that goes on here.
 

 

It'd be incredibly stupid to intervene when a mass beating or rape is going on.  You aren't going to accomplish anything other than getting yourself beat/killed/raped and not helping whoever the victim in the first place was.  Seems like people just want to be heroic, even though calling the police would just as heroic without going through the pain/death.

So unless you have 20-30 friends of your own ready to go up against weapons (that they may or may not have) I'd suggest calling the cops ASAP and memorizing faces and liscense plate numbers.

What I am amazed at is that you have been so socially conditioned into inaction that  you have a hard time believing this is how other people live. I have not just " drove through" gang violence. My grandmother lives in the "grove" the house across the street from hers is a boarded up crack house. I lived with her for 2 years.   You have been socially groomed to think the police are here to handle everything, where as some of us were " groomed" to take care of things ourselves.  The police do not even show up until daylight in the grove, it does NO GOOD to call them, they will not show up until the shooting stops. You cannot carry a police officer around in your pocket, the only person who is going to save you is yourself. The sooner you realize this the better.
 

 

So what exactly were you alone going to do to a group of guys raping a girl that will make them stop.  Besides get raped yourself?

 

Explain that to me?

I'm rather certain that there were people present thinking "this is really wrong" but that were too chickenshit to stand up.  We obviously don't know the specifics of the situation, but I have a feeling that it would have only taken one person speaking out to start some type of resistance against this act. Every time I've intervened in fights as SOON as I say "break it up" all of a sudden there are 20 people saying the same thing.  The real problem is that most people don 't have the balls to take the initiative.

EDIT- also are you actually suggesting that someone should've waited for a police response while this girl was being raped?? SERIOUSLY? Some situations just REQUIRE action.  Man, it fills me with rage just thinking about it.

On the subject of:  What would YOU do in this situation?

I wish I could say I would have rushed in to save her but that probably isn't realistic.  I'm a fairly big guy, I'm in pretty good shape...but there were, what was it?  Four guys?  Plus I think it's safe to assume that some of the bystanders were probably friends of the four who were doing the actual rape.

So I see this happening.  Four guys.  Are they armed?  Don't know but I'm going to assume knifes at least.  Plus I'm going to have to assume that one or two of the spectators would probably jump in on the side of the four guys if I got involved. 

Yeah, I don't know.  I like to think I would have at least challenged them verbally but I know for damn sure I would have been bracing myself to run when I did it.

The closest I've ever come to a situation like this was one time late at night in a seedy little bar.  Only five people there.  The bartender, me standing at the bar, a girl passed out at a table, and two other guys.

The two other guys started pulling the girl's shirt off.  The bartender didn't say anything and just stood there watching.

My reaction was not terribly heroic but I guess it was enough.  I simply said to the guys, "Hey, that's not nice."  And that was it.  The put her shirt back in place and left. 

I have no idea if they were just trying to get a look or if they intended to rape her.  In that situation I probably would have done more if needed but there were only two other guys, neither of them was really big or armed, plus I knew the bartended somewhat and I think he might have jumped in to help me if needed.

They deserve to be sodomized to death by a baseball bat.

Originally posted by Enkindu

Originally posted by Sabiancym

Originally posted by deviliscious

Originally posted by Sabiancym

I think some people here saying they would intervene are either just saying so because they are safe behind a computer, or live very sheltered lives in areas that are relatively safe.

 

I live in Chicago, granted it's the middle-upper class suburbs, but I still drive through and hear about the gang violence that goes on here.
 

 

It'd be incredibly stupid to intervene when a mass beating or rape is going on.  You aren't going to accomplish anything other than getting yourself beat/killed/raped and not helping whoever the victim in the first place was.  Seems like people just want to be heroic, even though calling the police would just as heroic without going through the pain/death.

So unless you have 20-30 friends of your own ready to go up against weapons (that they may or may not have) I'd suggest calling the cops ASAP and memorizing faces and liscense plate numbers.

What I am amazed at is that you have been so socially conditioned into inaction that  you have a hard time believing this is how other people live. I have not just " drove through" gang violence. My grandmother lives in the "grove" the house across the street from hers is a boarded up crack house. I lived with her for 2 years.   You have been socially groomed to think the police are here to handle everything, where as some of us were " groomed" to take care of things ourselves.  The police do not even show up until daylight in the grove, it does NO GOOD to call them, they will not show up until the shooting stops. You cannot carry a police officer around in your pocket, the only person who is going to save you is yourself. The sooner you realize this the better.
 

 

So what exactly were you alone going to do to a group of guys raping a girl that will make them stop.  Besides get raped yourself?

 

Explain that to me?

 

I'm rather certain that there were people present thinking "this is really wrong" but that were too chickenshit to stand up.  We obviously don't know the specifics of the situation, but I have a feeling that it would have only taken one person speaking out to start some type of resistance against this act. Every time I've intervened in fights as SOON as I say "break it up" all of a sudden there are 20 people saying the same thing.  The real problem is that most people don 't have the balls to take the initiative.

EDIT- also are you actually suggesting that someone should've waited for a police response while this girl was being raped?? SERIOUSLY? Some situations just REQUIRE action.  Man, it fills me with rage just thinking about it.

I guess it depends on the situation, which we don't know.

If it was just some stupid high school kids, then yea probably intervene.

If it was a bunch of 16-17 year old guys with guns and gang tattoos, then yea wait for the cops.

You'd probably have to know the area and people to be able to make that call.

I used to live not too far from Richmond; it's a BAD area and this actually doesn't surprise me too much.

People would get killed walking alone at night there, or mugged, or worse. The African American population in the lower income sections of California is probably among the most dangerous in the country.

Originally posted by //\\//\\oo

I used to live not too far from Richmond; it's a BAD area and this actually doesn't surprise me too much.

People would get killed walking alone at night there, or mugged, or worse. The African American population in the lower income sections of California is probably among the most dangerous in the country.

Yeah I was reading in their local sources how they have a bad gang problem and a very high murder rate. Not a nice place.

So they arrested a 6th with more to come.    Also, one of the people was black, so what is the mother saying....he was only arrested because he was black and did nothing.    Sorry lady, witnesses put your kid there and said he was one that raped the girl and other things(I can imagine).    Anyway, read the story here.

SF Chronicle  <<<<  clicky

Has anyone taken the time to speak to a police officer and ask what they advise?

I've been in some "sticky" situations in the past & the very first thing you have to do is weigh up the risk to your own life first, dead heroes save nobody.

I find it terrible a few jocks with some actual spine didn't team up & go in 2 to a rapist & take em down, though like a few have pointed out us here don't know the siituation, for all we know these guys have done this before, got away with it even after being reported identified etc, they might have been the local thugs & even touching one of them would bring the threat of the entire rest of the gang coming after you.

Depends also on the collective mindset that pre-existed at the school, they may have all been living in fear of gangs or so & to speak out or in English parlance "grass up" the perpetrators is a fast ticket to getting yourself an early pine box.

The school itself should be held responsible for holding an event & lacking adult supervision, any adults there should have dealt with the situation & should be held accountable of their negligence.

With the sheer volume of cellphone ownership it's crazy someone didn't phone the cops....maybe someone did, & were not taken seriously, in which case the cops should be held accountable too.

This situation highlights more than 1 problem, there was a whole chain of circumstances & failures that led to this poor woman being subjected to her ordeal, and each needs addressing.

Originally posted by Skuz

Has anyone taken the time to speak to a police officer and ask what they advise?

I've been in some "sticky" situations in the past & the very first thing you have to do is weigh up the risk to your own life first, dead heroes save nobody.

I find it terrible a few jocks with some actual spine didn't team up & go in 2 to a rapist & take em down, though like a few have pointed out us here don't know the siituation, for all we know these guys have done this before, got away with it even after being reported identified etc, they might have been the local thugs & even touching one of them would bring the threat of the entire rest of the gang coming after you.

Depends also on the collective mindset that pre-existed at the school, they may have all been living in fear of gangs or so & to speak out or in English parlance "grass up" the perpetrators is a fast ticket to getting yourself an early pine box.

The school itself should be held responsible for holding an event & lacking adult supervision, any adults there should have dealt with the situation & should be held accountable of their negligence.

With the sheer volume of cellphone ownership it's crazy someone didn't phone the cops....maybe someone did, & were not taken seriously, in which case the cops should be held accountable too.

This situation highlights more than 1 problem, there was a whole chain of circumstances & failures that led to this poor woman being subjected to her ordeal, and each needs addressing.

Actually a woman did call the police after she overheard some kids, walking by her house, that had come from the dance bragging about the rape and how cool it was.   She lived 2 blocks away and she didn't hear about it until after the fact.    People at the dance did not report it though.