Originally posted by thecandide

Originally posted by Raltar

And there you have it. The same people who think WoW is fun will think STO is fun.

I think my point has been made.

 

Cryptic can only hope! I think my point has been made.

I know. How HORRIBLE of Cryptic to go after fun for the masses. The bastards!!!!!!

The IP itself has a global following. Anyone developping it into an mmo basically doesn't have much of a choice other than to appeal to the masses. STO was never supposed to be competing with EVE or anything like that if thats what your were hoping.

Originally posted by Cecropia

The IP itself has a global following. Anyone developping it into an mmo basically doesn't have much of a choice other than to appeal to the masses. STO was never supposed to be competing with EVE or anything like that if thats what your were hoping.

Global following? So I guess you are saying that no matter where you go on the face of the earth people still have bad taste in video games and just want to watch pretty explosions?

I don't want them to COMPETE with anyone. Thats the whole point. Instead of doing their thinking with spread sheets and bank statements I want them to think with their brains and make a GOOD game, even if that means the majority of people on this planet will be too dumb to understand it.

In other words I want the Shakespeare of video games! Apparently those of you fighting to defend this game would rather have the Bevis and Butthead of video games... Well Cryptic is more than happy to give it to you.

 i dont care how much you love old shakeyspear if you dont find beavis and butthead funny you just dont have a sense of humor man!

Originally posted by neorandom

 i dont care how much you love old shakeyspear if you dont find beavis and butthead funny you just dont have a sense of humor man!

*facepalm*

It was just an EXAMPLE, a metaphor. There is nothing wrong with Bevis and Butthead. But giggling every time someone says a dirty word, never having sex and being stupider than dirt can only be entertaining for so long. At some point you should either be looking for more out of your entertainment... or you might just end up as one of the people who thinks STO is going to be fun.

Dear OP,

I agree, the game design being followed seems to be nothing more than a quick money grab.  It is flawed, and I do believe that playing as a ship is a dumb idea... for any game including EVE.  However the way you would make the game is flawed as well, what if I don't want to be in Starfleet Command? What if I want to be in the Klingon Empire or a smuggler of some kind... or just a scientist?

To me the Star Trek IP should have been about freedom... which leans towards a sandbox MMO that would take MANY years to create properly.  The Universe would have to be so large, with fully modeled planets that by the time it released the graphics would be dated a little... which is another thing, why the cartoon shit for an adult show?  Make the graphics darker and more space-like.

Your in luck Brain, you can be part of the Klingon Empire like I'm going to be.  There are two sides! :)

Originally posted by Raltar

 

Global following? So I guess you are saying that no matter where you go on the face of the earth people still have bad taste in video games and just want to watch pretty explosions?

I don't want them to COMPETE with anyone. Thats the whole point. Instead of doing their thinking with spread sheets and bank statements I want them to think with their brains and make a GOOD game, even if that means the majority of people on this planet will be too dumb to understand it.

In other words I want the Shakespeare of video games! Apparently those of you fighting to defend this game would rather have the Bevis and Butthead of video games... Well Cryptic is more than happy to give it to you.

Not saying I necessarily disagree with you.

I would love an incredibly complex STO. With the learning curve EVE has, but a game more engaged with massive exploration and diplomacy. My dream.

We have known what Cryptic has been up to for awhile. I'm gonna try it out for sure. But lets wait till we see the finished product before we get all hairy.

Originally posted by Darth_Osor

Originally posted by Gowmars

The game isn't even out yet. How about actually playing the game before you decide if you don't like it or not.

 

My expectations for this game drop almost by the day, based on what we've been told by the devs, and they usually give us rose colored appraisals of their game.  Sounds like CO in space and probably will be as equally incomplete when it launches.  Crafting/economy, social aspects, and other old school MMO features sound like afterthoughts, if they are included at all.  The game will be heavily instanced with small player per zone caps, which I hate.  It sounds like the game will be a series of generic randomly generated instanced 5 person/NPC missions.  Even if it's fun, I can't see this game having any staying power.

I'll probably still give it a shot unless there is mass beta tester bashing of the game, because I want it to be good...I just don't have much faith right now.

So much the battle. Then i can just play the fun content and move onto the next game.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

So much the battle. Then i can just play the fun content and move onto the next game.

Thats... a PERFERCT plan!

See what we will do is pay $50 for a game that is only fun for one month and then we will stop playing because we will have used up all the fun content. Then its back to twiddling our thumbs for six months to a year while we wait for the next MMO to be released. Then we shell out another $50 for a month of fun and then its another year of waiting after that for the next one!

WOOO! This is gonna be great! I love waiting for a good game to be made! The waiting is my favorite part! Its like watching baseball and knowing its still going to be tied after the 9th inning! I know how much we all LOVE that!

I'm so glad they don't make games which are fun to play for years at a time like they used to. That whole having fun for an entire year thing without ever having to wait thing was SOOOO stupid!

How can you make a judgment about a game with out even playing it?

You know there is a difference from reading how it is gonna be and stuff to actully seeing it for yourself.

Originally posted by Trowa_Barton

How can you make a judgment about a game with out even playing it?

How can you ignore the past history of the company making it? How can you ignore interviews and personal conversations with the dev team in which they clearly explain their plan for the game?

Originally posted by ericbelser

Originally posted by Trowa_Barton

How can you make a judgment about a game with out even playing it?

 

How can you ignore the past history of the company making it? How can you ignore interviews and personal conversations with the dev team in which they clearly explain their plan for the game?

1. They make good mmo games.

2. I pretty much read all the interviews and stuff how they explain there plan for the game.

And I think they doing a good job on the game so far and can't wait to see how it turns out.

Right, then you are essentially saying that it is okay for you to form an opinion (a positive one) based on what we know now; but that anyone who disagrees isn't allowed to have formed an opinion (a negative one) from the same information?

Yup, sounds like thats is exactly what he is saying. Pretty much the same attitude we get from all the guys who come in here to defend this game: "You can't have an opinion on the game unless you agree with me! If you don't agree with me then you can't say anything because you haven't played it yet!"

As for Cryptic making "good" MMOs... thats a matter of opinion as well. I would say that they make acceptable Super Hero based MMOs for casual gamers. Their games still leave a LOT to be desired for serious gamers and STO will be their first attempt to make something other than a super hero game. Quite honestly, I have seen nothing about Cryptic's history which leads me to believe they can make this game properly.

Originally posted by Raltar

Yup, sounds like thats is exactly what he is saying. Pretty much the same attitude we get from all the guys who come in here to defend this game: "You can't have an opinion on the game unless you agree with me! If you don't agree with me then you can't say anything because you haven't played it yet!"

As for Cryptic making "good" MMOs... thats a matter of opinion as well. I would say that they make acceptable Super Hero based MMOs for casual gamers. Their games still leave a LOT to be desired for serious gamers and STO will be their first attempt to make something other than a super hero game. Quite honestly, I have seen nothing about Cryptic's history which leads me to believe they can make this game properly.

QFT.  The hypocrisy of saying you think Cryptic is doing a good job based on what little we've seen, but somehow saying people seeing the same stuff can't form negative opinions of the game, is just priceless.

Pointing to Cryptic's previous MMOs doesn't score any points with me.  I look at CO and have less confidence, not more.  I believe after initial healthy box sales, this game will bleed subs at AoC rates, especially if this game launches Feb 2nd as is being reported.  There's no way with that short of a beta in a game thrown together this fast, that this game isn't going to be a disaster.

It's not going to come close to appealing to any Star Trek fan other than JJ's ADHD addled target audience because of its' shallowness, and content will no doubt be lacking, just like CO.  Older Trek fans are a demanding and unforgiving lot...I don't see them glossing over shortcomings this game will have.  Who's going to play this besides Trek fans?  People wanting a REAL space sim already have EVE.  The space combat looks pretty, but I can break out my 7 year old copy of Star Fleet Command for a more in depth tactical experience than this game appears to offer.  Even many fanbois admit the ground combat looks crappy, so that's not going to draw anyone.  Who's left?

Edit: typo

Both STO and SW:TOR beg to be made as a free sandbox game but no company has the passion or will to do it.

And that's that.

I've said this many times but I'll repeat it:

MMOs before WoW were fine.

Some of them were great games.

BUT...since Blizzard showed everyone  that making a simple game for the masses can make billions all  game designers sold their soul and lost their integrity over night.

They all started "chasing the dragon" if you will.

No company gives a shit about minority of gamers who like to play a real MMO (which is much harder to make then the limonade theme-parks we've been seeing for the last 5 years) when they can just lock millions of clueless kids in their "game" with cheap played out psycho tricks.

The funny and at same time the sad thing is that these idiots that call themselves game designers cant even do that because they dont  understand why WoW was so sucessful in the first place, so they keep making failure after failure.

So here we are, looking at lost opportunities for both TOR and STO to become a true epic games like we never seen before.

Oh well.

Originally posted by thecandide

This was a very well written outline and I now understand why so many people think that the current game design is flawed. It would be a role-player's paradise and allow everyone to live out their own Star Trek experience. However, I just can't seem to imagine a game based around station mini-games being fun for very long. To me it would seem like popcap with a Star Trek skin. I understand that many people love Star Trek for the plots, character interactions, and teamwork aspects, but my most memorable Star Trek moments are the Dominion War and the opening scene from First Contact. I want huge battles with lots of fiery explosions. I want to be able to explore and fight on my own. I'm probably going to spend hours trying to design an intimidating warship. Finally, you have to remember that the main reason for this game design choice is subscribers, and I may not be of the majority opinion on this site but I'm willing to bet that there are allot more people out there that would play a space combat shooter where they control the ship than a station simulation. In fact, when I'm trying to get a friend interested in this game I always play them a ship combat gameplay video. The majority of people are not looking to live out Star Trek fantasies, they just want to log in feel powerful and blow something up.

You hit the nail on the head.  I've been saying since the start that a game as many of the detractors describe is based off of station mini games and the majority will not find that fun honestly myself included.  for as many people out there who seem to love every character in the universe there are multitudes of us casual fans of the series who may have prefered certain characters over others but certainly did not tune in simply to keep up on the situations they faced and how they interacted with each other from day to day.  I'd bet that may have something to do with why most ST tv shows have not done extremely well.  The one to perform the best to date had one of the most recognizable casts to start with.

I'm not opposed to aspects of what alot of people seem to want being included at some time but again some of these things aren't feasible or very important.  I would love to have ship interiors too at some point but I'm going to spend so much time outfitting my ship it is something I know I could do without from the start.

I also hope at some point and time maybe they do find a way to allow players to man posts in each others ships but for financial viability that is not the best way to start.

Originally posted by jaxsundane

Originally posted by thecandide

This was a very well written outline and I now understand why so many people think that the current game design is flawed. It would be a role-player's paradise and allow everyone to live out their own Star Trek experience. However, I just can't seem to imagine a game based around station mini-games being fun for very long. To me it would seem like popcap with a Star Trek skin. I understand that many people love Star Trek for the plots, character interactions, and teamwork aspects, but my most memorable Star Trek moments are the Dominion War and the opening scene from First Contact. I want huge battles with lots of fiery explosions. I want to be able to explore and fight on my own. I'm probably going to spend hours trying to design an intimidating warship. Finally, you have to remember that the main reason for this game design choice is subscribers, and I may not be of the majority opinion on this site but I'm willing to bet that there are allot more people out there that would play a space combat shooter where they control the ship than a station simulation. In fact, when I'm trying to get a friend interested in this game I always play them a ship combat gameplay video. The majority of people are not looking to live out Star Trek fantasies, they just want to log in feel powerful and blow something up.

 

You hit the nail on the head.  I've been saying since the start that a game as many of the detractors describe is based off of station mini games and the majority will not find that fun honestly myself included.  for as many people out there who seem to love every character in the universe there are multitudes of us casual fans of the series who may have prefered certain characters over others but certainly did not tune in simply to keep up on the situations they faced and how they interacted with each other from day to day.  I'd bet that may have something to do with why most ST tv shows have not done extremely well.  The one to perform the best to date had one of the most recognizable casts to start with.

I'm not opposed to aspects of what alot of people seem to want being included at some time but again some of these things aren't feasible or very important.  I would love to have ship interiors too at some point but I'm going to spend so much time outfitting my ship it is something I know I could do without from the start.

I also hope at some point and time maybe they do find a way to allow players to man posts in each others ships but for financial viability that is not the best way to start.

Agreed. SOE tried that "A day in the life" approach with Star Wars and it failed miserably. Most people don't play a game to relive real life experiences or chores  they play them to escape from them. Bottom line is it has to be fun and standing around a station pushing a button or yelling orders doesn't sound like fun. The TV shows were good for television, but did anyone notice how different the movies were from the series? That's because the producers learned that you have a different audience in the movies than you do with a TV series.An entire movie about Data's cat or Geordi's failed love life would have failed. The same holds true with games.

PS:Before any of the usual suspects go pouncing on this post, I'm not knocking anyone that enjoys playing games for purely social reasons. Just saying that there isn't enough of an audience to sustain an MMO that makes money because in the end that is why developers go thru all the trouble in the first place. 

Originally posted by ktanner3

Agreed. SOE tried that "A day in the life" approach with Star Wars and it failed miserably.

I'm sorry, but that is a totally flawed example and a misinterpretation of SWG. Tens of thousands of people did actually pay to play a "day in the life of"...that's a big part of what SOE didn't understand. The dev team screwed up a ton of things, but one of the first was cutting elements of that out late in beta and alongside the massive combat engine revamp that was half of the NGE, the other half was killing off the "day in the life of" elements totally.

Also, anyone who thinks Cryptic will be adding any significant game elements is really being optimistic. Given how badly they are rushing this out the door, it will launch horribly content-lite as is. They will be focussed 100% on trying to add enough expanding what will already be there, no time left for real new systems...insofar as they bother to support it all post-launch.