Originally posted by heremypet

Originally posted by buegur

The only thing i think that WoW did that the other MMO games didn't do at the time was the faster pace of leveling.  It also had a world made from a cartoonie art form and the questing system was better implimented than the others.  Although others like EQ had quests they didn't pay off as well as the ones in Wow. 

Not sure how you can compare WoWs quests with EQs.  WoW you just walk up to a ? - right click - blindly accept - follow the marker - right click the ! - click complete.  In EQ you had to first of all be talking to a nondescript NPC and even then all you may get it a [topic[, and even then you had to read what he said before you saw it, then after asking about the topic, you had to figure out the keywords just get info on the quest, which was usually pretty general like, "a rogue in southern mountains of rathe, which damn, meant you actually had to use your eyes more than to simply line up a yellow arrow to the top of your compass.  And that's just to find the rogue, maybe you have to hail him, maybe you have to kill him, maybe you have to say something in particular.  Bottom line is you had better have read the quest thoroughly.  And if you go online and look up the quest, then you're only cheating yourself the experience.

I would rather do 5 quests in EQ than 500 quests in WoW.

And I would rather not do any quests at all.  In any MMO, I've never read any quests and never cared what the npc is blabbering about.  I would rather not do any quests at all.  I think WoW is the best MMO out at the moment, but I never thought its the best because of all the quests.  For players like myself, WoW quests would be better than EQ quests.  Just a different perspective for you.

I personally think it makes game developers try harder. Saying that, sometimes they try to hard and end up going kaput.

Originally posted by GlowingMoon

lol you guys do realize that the TC meant that WoW  is such a piece of garbage and because of It games have gotten so bad that there's nowhere to go except up. That things have gotten so bad that they can't possibly get any worse, so there's only room to improve.

I fully realized that and chose to ignore it and instead to focus on a discussion in this thread that actually has merit.

My position on this stems from the fact that I detest the old 'camp spawn and grind xp' method that pre-WoW MMOs liked to use.  The WoW quest-based systems is miles better than that.  Personally I would prefer to go to a purely achievement-based progression system.

When it comes to MMOs I have discovered that I have limits when it comes to mechanics.  I will enjoy a game mechanic or feature until I hit a certain point and then I start to detest it.  I like grinding and farming for a while until they are overused a tad too much and then I start hating them with a passion.  Similarly an obscure quest can be a lot of fun until the mechanics governing it get just a bit too stupid.  There is a threshold beyond which I simply feel that my intelligence is being insulted. 

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by heremypet 

 In EQ you had to first of all be talking to a nondescript NPC and even then all you may get it a [topic[, and even then you had to read what he said before you saw it, then after asking about the topic, you had to figure out the keywords just get info on the quest, which was usually pretty general like, "a rogue in southern mountains of rathe, which damn, meant you actually had to use your eyes more than to simply line up a yellow arrow to the top of your compass.  And that's just to find the rogue, maybe you have to hail him, maybe you have to kill him, maybe you have to say something in particular. 

That sound like a fairly poorly designed quest to me (unless it is meant to be one of those 'obscure mysteries' quests).  If an NPC wants you do do something, he better give me all the info he has without me having to play 20 questions.

 

 

No, that was questing in traditional single and multiplayer games back in the 90s and early 2000s'.  NPC's would provide clues, but players would have to interact with NPC's and try to say the correct keywords to extract the information need to complete the quest. 

It was a different design that did not appeal to the mass market, hence it was changed to what we have today, mindless quests that no one bothers to even read, much less interact with an NPC.

Its a shame the adventure game genre died, so many people don't know how to play games like them anymore.

 

 

That is why WOW quests are better. I would much rather go kill stuff than trying to play "guess-that-word" in a database somewhere. There is a REASON why that kind of adventure gaming died.

Originally posted by Uccisore

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by heremypet 

 In EQ you had to first of all be talking to a nondescript NPC and even then all you may get it a [topic[, and even then you had to read what he said before you saw it, then after asking about the topic, you had to figure out the keywords just get info on the quest, which was usually pretty general like, "a rogue in southern mountains of rathe, which damn, meant you actually had to use your eyes more than to simply line up a yellow arrow to the top of your compass.  And that's just to find the rogue, maybe you have to hail him, maybe you have to kill him, maybe you have to say something in particular. 

That sound like a fairly poorly designed quest to me (unless it is meant to be one of those 'obscure mysteries' quests).  If an NPC wants you do do something, he better give me all the info he has without me having to play 20 questions.

 

 

     Maybe he DOESN'T want you to do something. Maybe you want him to do something, and you're talking him in to it. Or maybe he's ambivalent about anybody doing anything, and you just squeeze a tip out of him through innocent conversation. Maybe he's just that kind of wizardy guy who LIKES to play 20 questions, to test and see if you're worthy of the quest.

     But no, you're right.  It was such a major step of evolution in gameplay when the text became superfluous.

That is boring. People want to hack-n-slash & fight bosses, NOT guessing words in a database.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Uccisore

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by heremypet 

 In EQ you had to first of all be talking to a nondescript NPC and even then all you may get it a [topic[, and even then you had to read what he said before you saw it, then after asking about the topic, you had to figure out the keywords just get info on the quest, which was usually pretty general like, "a rogue in southern mountains of rathe, which damn, meant you actually had to use your eyes more than to simply line up a yellow arrow to the top of your compass.  And that's just to find the rogue, maybe you have to hail him, maybe you have to kill him, maybe you have to say something in particular. 

That sound like a fairly poorly designed quest to me (unless it is meant to be one of those 'obscure mysteries' quests).  If an NPC wants you do do something, he better give me all the info he has without me having to play 20 questions.

 

 

     Maybe he DOESN'T want you to do something. Maybe you want him to do something, and you're talking him in to it. Or maybe he's ambivalent about anybody doing anything, and you just squeeze a tip out of him through innocent conversation. Maybe he's just that kind of wizardy guy who LIKES to play 20 questions, to test and see if you're worthy of the quest.

     But no, you're right.  It was such a major step of evolution in gameplay when the text became superfluous.

 

That is boring. People want to hack-n-slash & fight bosses, NOT guessing words in a database.

     And THAT is why when I see people say "WoW brought mass-market appeal to the MMO industry!", my response is "don't do me any more favors, please". 

Originally posted by Uccisore

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Uccisore

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by heremypet 

 In EQ you had to first of all be talking to a nondescript NPC and even then all you may get it a [topic[, and even then you had to read what he said before you saw it, then after asking about the topic, you had to figure out the keywords just get info on the quest, which was usually pretty general like, "a rogue in southern mountains of rathe, which damn, meant you actually had to use your eyes more than to simply line up a yellow arrow to the top of your compass.  And that's just to find the rogue, maybe you have to hail him, maybe you have to kill him, maybe you have to say something in particular. 

That sound like a fairly poorly designed quest to me (unless it is meant to be one of those 'obscure mysteries' quests).  If an NPC wants you do do something, he better give me all the info he has without me having to play 20 questions.

 

 

     Maybe he DOESN'T want you to do something. Maybe you want him to do something, and you're talking him in to it. Or maybe he's ambivalent about anybody doing anything, and you just squeeze a tip out of him through innocent conversation. Maybe he's just that kind of wizardy guy who LIKES to play 20 questions, to test and see if you're worthy of the quest.

     But no, you're right.  It was such a major step of evolution in gameplay when the text became superfluous.

 

That is boring. People want to hack-n-slash & fight bosses, NOT guessing words in a database.

 

     And THAT is why when I see people say "WoW brought mass-market appeal to the MMO industry!", my response is "don't do me any more favors, please". 

Agree with Uccisore.

"I want to be able to hack N' slash, but I don't want to have to use my brain and think a little bit too. I just want you to show me where to go to get my shiney lootz I can show off!"

Sickening to say the least. These types of mentalities (displayed above) are why developer's don't bother to take the next step in MMO evolution. The sheep are currently happy apparently, so why bother? Having simply hack n' slash is for console games.

 What is so wrong with having several flavors within one game? Riddles, puzzles, etc, etc.? Curious for a GOOD answer. Believe it or not, there are elements from the first MMO's, if done right and polished up a bit, would be great to have in current MMO's to freshen up the staleness of them. They have borrowed before...now they just need to borrow different elements.

Produces a**clowns like you.

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by Uccisore

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Uccisore

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by heremypet 

 In EQ you had to first of all be talking to a nondescript NPC and even then all you may get it a [topic[, and even then you had to read what he said before you saw it, then after asking about the topic, you had to figure out the keywords just get info on the quest, which was usually pretty general like, "a rogue in southern mountains of rathe, which damn, meant you actually had to use your eyes more than to simply line up a yellow arrow to the top of your compass.  And that's just to find the rogue, maybe you have to hail him, maybe you have to kill him, maybe you have to say something in particular. 

That sound like a fairly poorly designed quest to me (unless it is meant to be one of those 'obscure mysteries' quests).  If an NPC wants you do do something, he better give me all the info he has without me having to play 20 questions.

 

 

     Maybe he DOESN'T want you to do something. Maybe you want him to do something, and you're talking him in to it. Or maybe he's ambivalent about anybody doing anything, and you just squeeze a tip out of him through innocent conversation. Maybe he's just that kind of wizardy guy who LIKES to play 20 questions, to test and see if you're worthy of the quest.

     But no, you're right.  It was such a major step of evolution in gameplay when the text became superfluous.

 

That is boring. People want to hack-n-slash & fight bosses, NOT guessing words in a database.

 

     And THAT is why when I see people say "WoW brought mass-market appeal to the MMO industry!", my response is "don't do me any more favors, please". 

 

Agree with Uccisore.

"I want to be able to hack N' slash, but I don't want to have to use my brain and think a little bit too. I just want you to show me where to go to get my shiney lootz I can show off!"

Sickening to say the least. These types of mentalities (displayed above) are why developer's don't bother to take the next step in MMO evolution. The sheep are currently happy apparently, so why bother? Having simply hack n' slash is for console games.

 What is so wrong with having several flavors within one game? Riddles, puzzles, etc, etc.? Curious for a GOOD answer. Believe it or not, there are elements from the first MMO's, if done right and polished up a bit, would be great to have in current MMO's to freshen up the staleness of them. They have borrowed before...now they just need to borrow different elements.

Sad to say, any effort to make real puzzles or clever riddles will be solved on day 1, spread around the net and trivialized.  So, all that effort to make something clever is canceled out in days.  I don't blame developers for being a little gun shy.  The interweb wasn't such a big deal in EQ's hayday as it is now.  What you thought was clever back then is just tedious now when its plastered all over 101 FAQ sites.  When a 1000 people on the server are blowing right by you solving these riddles in seconds because they can just look it up, it kind of makes all your effort pretty pointless.

Originally posted by spyboy2000

When you hit rock bottom, there's nowhere to go except up.

BAH !,i thought perhaps there was something i have missed,because i cannot think of one thing WOW introduced to MMOPRG's.Heck i cannot even think of anything they have done as positive,i am still thinking hard...nope can't see anything.Well SIZE,i guess the game is big and we all love a large world to play around in,so i give them that,it's not new though,there is a few games that have large worlds.Too bad so much of that world is instances,anyone that knows me,knows what i think of instances,they are like 1/10 on a skilled implementation process for delivering content to a game.Any low budget developer can create instances,i can  do it myself without a team.

Wow has always had both kinds of quests; simple and not so simple.  One thing I noticed with Wotlk - you almost always have to read the quest text to figure out exactly what you're supposed to be doing.  Many of the TBC quests were not like that.  But there are many quest lines in many places that are not obvious and can be hard to do (unless you're being run) and require reading and thinking if you aren't using Thottbot or QuestHelper.

I'm not saying that I'm a fan of Wow's questing - I'd like to see far more world-changing quests (and not just large-scale or phasing ones) but saying that Wow doesn't have better quests than the original EQ is fairly ridiculous.

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by heremypet 

 In EQ you had to first of all be talking to a nondescript NPC and even then all you may get it a [topic[, and even then you had to read what he said before you saw it, then after asking about the topic, you had to figure out the keywords just get info on the quest, which was usually pretty general like, "a rogue in southern mountains of rathe, which damn, meant you actually had to use your eyes more than to simply line up a yellow arrow to the top of your compass.  And that's just to find the rogue, maybe you have to hail him, maybe you have to kill him, maybe you have to say something in particular. 

That sound like a fairly poorly designed quest to me (unless it is meant to be one of those 'obscure mysteries' quests).  If an NPC wants you do do something, he better give me all the info he has without me having to play 20 questions.

 

Let me explain how this wanderous EQ quest system really worked.  I actually played EQ and loved it for quite some time.  A player approaches an NPC, gets some vague directions for a quest and either looks it up online or asks in /general or guild chat, "Hey, what am I sposed to do next?"

Originally posted by otter3370

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by heremypet 

 In EQ you had to first of all be talking to a nondescript NPC and even then all you may get it a [topic[, and even then you had to read what he said before you saw it, then after asking about the topic, you had to figure out the keywords just get info on the quest, which was usually pretty general like, "a rogue in southern mountains of rathe, which damn, meant you actually had to use your eyes more than to simply line up a yellow arrow to the top of your compass.  And that's just to find the rogue, maybe you have to hail him, maybe you have to kill him, maybe you have to say something in particular. 

That sound like a fairly poorly designed quest to me (unless it is meant to be one of those 'obscure mysteries' quests).  If an NPC wants you do do something, he better give me all the info he has without me having to play 20 questions.

 

 

Let me explain how this wanderous EQ quest system really worked.  I actually played EQ and loved it for quite some time.  A player approaches an NPC, gets some vague directions for a quest and either looks it up online or asks in /general or guild chat, "Hey, what am I sposed to do next?"

^^ this

EQ QUEST:

"Hi there adventurer, I am in need of some wolf carapace to make my recipe"

/ooc ANYONE KNOW WHERE THE WOLVES ARE????!!!!!

/ooc No, sorry

*Looks up online for 20 minutes, until some random guy on Allakhazam says where he found the wolf carapace*

Go find the zone and then the wolves with /loc and do the quest.

Originally posted by pepsibottle

Originally posted by otter3370

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by heremypet 

 In EQ you had to first of all be talking to a nondescript NPC and even then all you may get it a [topic[, and even then you had to read what he said before you saw it, then after asking about the topic, you had to figure out the keywords just get info on the quest, which was usually pretty general like, "a rogue in southern mountains of rathe, which damn, meant you actually had to use your eyes more than to simply line up a yellow arrow to the top of your compass.  And that's just to find the rogue, maybe you have to hail him, maybe you have to kill him, maybe you have to say something in particular. 

That sound like a fairly poorly designed quest to me (unless it is meant to be one of those 'obscure mysteries' quests).  If an NPC wants you do do something, he better give me all the info he has without me having to play 20 questions.

 

 

Let me explain how this wanderous EQ quest system really worked.  I actually played EQ and loved it for quite some time.  A player approaches an NPC, gets some vague directions for a quest and either looks it up online or asks in /general or guild chat, "Hey, what am I sposed to do next?"

^^ this

EQ QUEST:

"Hi there adventurer, I am in need of some wolf carapace to make my recipe"

/ooc ANYONE KNOW WHERE THE WOLVES ARE????!!!!!

/ooc No, sorry

*Looks up online for 20 minutes, until some random guy on Allakhazam says where he found the wolf carapace*

Go find the zone and then the wolves with /loc and do the quest.

Yeah..if you were incapable of thinking , exploring, or were impatient as all hell. Still better than quests that GPS everything for you with dots and take all of the exploring fun out of it.

Originally posted by pepsibottle

Originally posted by otter3370

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by heremypet 

 In EQ you had to first of all be talking to a nondescript NPC and even then all you may get it a [topic[, and even then you had to read what he said before you saw it, then after asking about the topic, you had to figure out the keywords just get info on the quest, which was usually pretty general like, "a rogue in southern mountains of rathe, which damn, meant you actually had to use your eyes more than to simply line up a yellow arrow to the top of your compass.  And that's just to find the rogue, maybe you have to hail him, maybe you have to kill him, maybe you have to say something in particular. 

That sound like a fairly poorly designed quest to me (unless it is meant to be one of those 'obscure mysteries' quests).  If an NPC wants you do do something, he better give me all the info he has without me having to play 20 questions.

 

 

Let me explain how this wanderous EQ quest system really worked.  I actually played EQ and loved it for quite some time.  A player approaches an NPC, gets some vague directions for a quest and either looks it up online or asks in /general or guild chat, "Hey, what am I sposed to do next?"

^^ this

EQ QUEST:

"Hi there adventurer, I am in need of some wolf carapace to make my recipe"

/ooc ANYONE KNOW WHERE THE WOLVES ARE????!!!!!

/ooc No, sorry

*Looks up online for 20 minutes, until some random guy on Allakhazam says where he found the wolf carapace*

Go find the zone and then the wolves with /loc and do the quest.

I don't doubt a lot of people did this.  That said, I certainly didn't and neither did the people I played with...

I loved having to think about how to finish a quest.  If I couldn't immediately finish one, it wasn't a bit deal.  Despite the name of EverQuest, quests were really a side activity that could be a lot of fun and could have great rewards, but they were not the focus of the game.  If you ask me, that's what made the quests special.  They were optional and required you to use your brain. 

The NPCs didn't have a "hey!  look over here!" question mark or any such ridiculousness floating above their head (I absolutely cannot stand that nonsense).  If you wanted to find a quest, you had to ask around and interact with NPCs.  You had to ask them questions based on what they said and it encouraged you to pay attention!I  No "x marks the spot" mini-map crap was going to do the thinking for you.  I sincerely submit that it was a far better system than any new game has come up with.  Yes, occasionally you had to search for the right word to use and ask the same question a few different ways.  It wasn't perfect.  But it was the best I've seen.

---

Originally posted by select20
If WoW never came out, would there be as  many MMO's out today as there are? Yeah alot of them suck, but WoW has also caused competition to sky rocket.
WoW, whether its my opinion or not, is the best MMO out there. People complain about WoW ruining things, but if you look back to you favortie MMO, mine being EQ1, those developers haven't done anything that comes close to WoW. So who do you blame? WoW or the developers that once delievered that no longer can?

---

I thought WoW was a 'fun' game, EQ was a substantive in depth game that kept me intrigued. What WoW brought to the MMO world was awareness and attention to MMO's.

---

Originally posted by Torik

---

Originally posted by heremypet 
 In EQ you had to first of all be talking to a nondescript NPC and even then all you may get it a [topic[, and even then you had to read what he said before you saw it, then after asking about the topic, you had to figure out the keywords just get info on the quest, which was usually pretty general like, "a rogue in southern mountains of rathe, which damn, meant you actually had to use your eyes more than to simply line up a yellow arrow to the top of your compass.  And that's just to find the rogue, maybe you have to hail him, maybe you have to kill him, maybe you have to say something in particular. 

---

That sound like a fairly poorly designed quest to me (unless it is meant to be one of those 'obscure mysteries' quests).  If an NPC wants you do do something, he better give me all the info he has without me having to play 20 questions.
 

---

EQ Quest evoked thought and problem solving.

I honestly can't believe some of you are masochistic enough to be nostalgic about this garbage.  Playing guess-the-word with an npc, and exploring badly-rendered smeared area #243 (with tree) really gets you guys misty-eyed.

"let's" just not talk about WoW anymore, you wouldn't like me when we talk about WoW ( it turns me into a troll lol) =P "rawwwrgh"

 Anyways that aside, I really don't understand it's popularity. I bought it when it was first released and also purchased a 1 year subscription.. but guess what I only used 1 month of it. After a month I was already bored, sick of the community, and litterally felt I wasted my money lol. Though I still do occasionally play it on FREE servers,  so I guess it's not all bad. Just far from being worth paying monthly for.

 and yes that's right, you don't have to pay2play for it's sub-par entertainment. There are plenty of free servers out there located all around the globe. I'd recommend RageCraft/Bloodlust for NA users, last I checked it was the best as far as community/ping is concerned ;D

Originally posted by Vallanor

I don't doubt a lot of people did this.  That said, I certainly didn't and neither did the people I played with...

I loved having to think about how to finish a quest.  If I couldn't immediately finish one, it wasn't a bit deal.  Despite the name of EverQuest, quests were really a side activity that could be a lot of fun and could have great rewards, but they were not the focus of the game.  If you ask me, that's what made the quests special.  They were optional and required you to use your brain. 

The NPCs didn't have a "hey!  look over here!" question mark or any such ridiculousness floating above their head (I absolutely cannot stand that nonsense).  If you wanted to find a quest, you had to ask around and interact with NPCs.  You had to ask them questions based on what they said and it encouraged you to pay attention!I  No "x marks the spot" mini-map crap was going to do the thinking for you.  I sincerely submit that it was a far better system than any new game has come up with.  Yes, occasionally you had to search for the right word to use and ask the same question a few different ways.  It wasn't perfect.  But it was the best I've seen.

I think you're confusing WAR with WOW.  The only X marks the spot is the help in locating the actual NPC that has something useful.  If you think it took brains to randomly talk to every NPC in the game, you seriously had no life.  That crap should've died in the 16-bit era=)

Unless you're using a MOD, WOW doesn't tell you exactly what to do.   It never did.   By the way ignore all the simple stuff and only add up all the epic quests, they still outnumber whatever EQ had by a huge margin.  The little tasks like "fetch 10 hoofs"   are not the only thing WOW had.   There were plenty of quest lines that spanned many levels, taking you all around the world, with great story and lore.   But only those who actually played would know=)   By the way, every quest in WOW is optional as well, besides maybe the class specific ones;)

You'd be hard pressed to find enoug people to fill a room that enjoy punching in random words to start/finish a quest when you can just look it up in 30 secs.