Originally posted by luckturtz

I don't understand why some people are so against free to play game.

 

Simple. Some people like a fair and level playing field, that is ALL gamers are the same, none have any advantage over any others.

In a P2P game, we are ALL the same, because unless we cheat we ALL do exactly the same things for the same rewards.

You want to make level 5? You need 5K XP. The ONLY way to do that without cheating, is kill 1000 mobs, and do 20 quests. That's it, end of story, no other way to do it. If you are level 5 I know for a fact you killed around 1000 mobs, and did around 20 quests, just like me. We are equal.

In a F2P game, things are not equal. MAybe you had an xp boost potion, maybe you bought a +1 to mana ring so you have less downtime, maybe you bought a pet that lets you make xp faster, etc. etc. We are not equl.

If you don't care about an equal game, it doesn't matter. If you do, you play P2P games.

Originally posted by Papadam

Originally posted by girlgeek

 

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Originally posted by Papadam

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Originally posted by girlgeek

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Originally posted by laokoko

 

If you want to enjoy f2p games without spending money.  The first lesson is don't compete with other players.

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Am I the only one that sees the irony in that? ^^^^

 

 

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For your information, Mr. Oh So Intellectual.... I don't regularly play f2p games and I have 3 subscription-based MMOs that I am presently playing, and PAY FOR, so it is not I that expects "charity," as you so eloquently put it.  However, calling something "FREE" to play and then charging money for it, makes it NOT free, but rather a "variable payment system."  You get X for free, you get XY for X amount, and you get XYZ for XX amount. 

 

What I find ironic is calling the subscription style "free to play." It's not REALLY "free" to play, unless you don't want to play the ENTIRE game (usually) or varied other stipulations. So I really think it's just meant to be misleading.  And, incidentally, works into a pretty good sales tactic, because....people start playing "for free" and then generally end up spending money at some point.

So why not call these games "variable pay scale games," or something more TRUTHFUL in it's entirety? Game developers, of COURSE, have a right (and need) to make money. My question is...do they therefore have a right to also manipulate or lie to get it? I think not. Is there something wrong with a truthful approach? I think these games should be called VPS games, as I said, "variable pay scale" or "variable pay system" games.  That would be honest.  Heaven forbid any corporation choose an honest path though.....

*clipped overreacting segment* <---we don't need to see it again

Sorry about my rude post :( but overreacting much?
 

Yes, probably so...I also apologize. I just get weary of the way we all seem to argue on here. I'm not beyond having had a few warnings myself, trust me. It's probably why I even NOTICE name calling now, to be honest. So the board mods are effectively teaching...ME, for one.

If the client does not cost anything and you dont have to pay a monthly sub to have access to the game then its indeed free... Doesnt matter if there are things to spend money on since you dont have to. Most F2P games seems to be designed so that either spend alot of time OR money. If I gett a cell phone for FREE I wont complain that I have to pay for  sending text messeges and calling people.

I understand the cell phone analogy better.  A cell phone is similar to a game client, so I can see what you're saying there.  Good analogy.

If Blizzard made vanilla WoW completly free but you had to pay for the expansions, wouldnt WoW be free to play?

Well....VANILLA WoW would be free to play.  So I'd say that's partially truthful.  But see....that's kind of my "gripe." WoW is more than vanilla WoW.  It's a much larger story and game than that.  I do see the point that you're making (very well) and I understand your perspective. I just think it would be more honest....for them to call these types of games "variable pay scale" or "variable pay system" games.  SOME people actually have started calling them RMT games. I guess that would work too, EXCEPT....as YOU are saying...they don't, as a necessity, cost money. They're just a more full product if you spend some money.

I'm not partial to f2p games mostly because I'd rather pay a montly fee and then not have to think about it again, also I like that what I do pay is capped. Ironically, if you're not paying attention or are weak minded you could end up paying more than you normally would have.

However it does bug me a bit that they call these games free-to-play, as if money had nothing to do with the game but realistically they design the games in such a way as to make as much money off of you as they can. (DDO)

Imo DDO is good game for:

Free player; It is as free as all the other f2p games + you gain points by playing.

F2P player that uses the mall; You can buy points to unlock the content

Normal MMO player; You can pay 14,95/Month to unlock whole game.

I'll give a very nice exemple of how F2P works (based on my personal experience with Mabinogi)

I've been playing Mabinogi for a year now. Mabinogi is entirely free and you don't exactly need money to be competitive in the game (skill-based) BUT when playing the game, you slowly realise that it would be nice if you could get from Point A to Point B a little faster, or perhaps Level up a bit more quickly. You are not forced to, but some may choose to buy from cash shop to accelerate their growth in the game.

So yeah, this year, I bought 30k NX ($30), bought 2 pets, 2 character card (to rebirth) and that's all I needed. Those 2 pets help me reach Point A to Point B faster than walking, and those 2 rebirths card helped me raise a skill I would've waited 4 more weeks before I could get. But I wasn't forced to get that skill or I could've waited. Oh, and I can use those 2 pets to carry 1 more player (non-cash shop users may also use other players pets).

Mabinogi's Item Shop sells 80% of it's content in-game. The items you can buy in-game (mostly revive feathers, dye ampoule, etc) can be bought with NX and then traded to other players using the in-game currency (gold). In other words, even players who have not bought NX may get their hands on item mall stocks. The only items that cannot be bought with in-game currency are sold on the websites and includes Pets and Character Card and a "Fantasy Life Club" (allows you to open a shop, create a guild, increase your inventory space, gives you free daily revive, etc)

I didn't buy my character to the top, I simply gave it a little push. Mabinogi is more of a skill-based game. Meaning that to be competitive, it's not what you wear but how you play that matters.

So yeah, instead of paying $178 a year (monthly fees), I paid $30 and I don't plan to buy more NX. That's how some F2P MMORPG titles work.  But as far as F2P FPS goes, I have to admit some cash shops are broken. Then again, if you plan to pay Cash shop in a F2P FPS, might as well buy Call Of Duty, Team Fortress or anyother FPS which offers a way better quality game with dedicated servers.

I would be more than happy to spend money on a F2P if i could get the same access as a P2P game.  I will make the comparison of  P2P and a F2P game.  I paid $30 for the game and a three month sub @ $30.  So for $60 I get the game and 4 months of a subscription since the $30 included a 30 day sub.  Using that I'm paying about $15 a month.  With this I have equal access to everything the game has to offer.  Crafting, mounts, housing, gear, potions, ect.

Now let me spend the same cash on the F2P game.  I will spend $30 the first month then $10 a month for the next 3 months for a total of $60 over the 4 month period.  Now lets see if that will grant me access to everything the game has to offer?  I would really like a mount to get around on and I see there is no level requirement!  Better than the P2P, but wait, I will have to pay a monthly fee to keep one.

$6 a month for 4 months is $24.

I really need extra bag space and it comes with 2 bags, but I need 5 like I have in the P2P...

$4 a month per bag x 3 bags for 4 months = $48

I could really use some potions for my HP and Mana along with some enchanted gear I would like to make and....but wait, I have already gone over my limit of $60 in the first month.  Bottom line, F2P games when compared to P2P games are a money sink.

I know there are many differences in F2P games as far as pricing and what you can do without paying.  This is just one example,  I'm willing to bet you can't show me a F2P game that gives you the same access as a P2P game, spending the same amount of money.  This is why F2P will never be as big in the west as it is in the east.  Different cultures have different expectations.  I can't say what it is in the east since I'm not from there, but living in the west If I'm going to drop $15 a month for a game I want to have access to everything the game is going to offer and a F2P isn't going to give me that.

If I create 5 characters on my account all 5 have the same access with P2P.  F2P if I want to have each one with a mount, I'm going to pay for each one I want.

If you enjoy playing F2P and don't mind spending more than you would would for a P2P then by all means play them, if you want to play for free then enjoy that Asian grinder and be prepared to grind until your eyes bleed to level up.

F2P games are designed to make you pay more for less. Less in terms of content, UI etc etc. Effectively the revenue model replaces content with a need to keep up with other players.

Originally posted by Scot

F2P games are designed to make you pay more for less. Less in terms of content, UI etc etc. Effectively the revenue model replaces content with a need to keep up with other players.

That is actually false. Most F2P titles have tons of content and add 1-2 new expansions every year (Rappelz, Mabinogi, Flyff, and many more). These expansions adds a large amount of FREE content. In no way do you pay more for less.

Originally posted by MadnessRealm

Originally posted by Scot

F2P games are designed to make you pay more for less. Less in terms of content, UI etc etc. Effectively the revenue model replaces content with a need to keep up with other players.

 

That is actually false. Most F2P titles have tons of content and add 1-2 new expansions every year (Rappelz, Mabinogi, Flyff, and many more). These expansions adds a large amount of FREE content. In no way do you pay more for less.

not true MOST actually do what scot says. the updates you get in the games you mention tend to only add new zones with the same mobs with different colors to grind on. Runes of Magic is about the only f2p mmo i can think of thats worth anything atm.

Originally posted by Frostbite05

not true MOST actually do what scot says. the updates you get in the games you mention tend to only add new zones with the same mobs with different colors to grind on. Runes of Magic is about the only f2p mmo i can think of thats worth anything atm.

I'll take Mabinogi again as an exemple. The new zone (Zardine) added several new monsters (lava wolf, horned deer, crabs, sulfur golem, anteaters, etc). The new zone also adds a new storyline (G8), a few new skills (final shot, windbreaker, etc), new emotes, new NPCs, new items, and 1 mini-game (hot-air balloon). Also, Hard Mode Dungeons.

Next year we should get G9 which also adds a lot more content (shadow mission), new storyline, new skills and much more.

This might not look like a lot of content if you have never played the game (or went too far) but this is actually several hours of new content. Mabinogi is a sandbox by the way so it does not work the same way as other F2P.

And this is just an exemple, the 3 games I mentionned dont just have "new zone and same mobs with different colors", we're talking about real expansions (equivalent of a P2P game)

I played Perfect World for close to a year and managed to become competitive and even afford vanity items for much less than i would have spent on a p2p game. That games pretty solid, PvP is somewhat unbalanced (but manageable) and theyre adding new areas, a new race and two classes. Comunity was the best ive seen so far also. I would take PWI over WOW any day of the week. The problem is they got greedy.

A cash shop system can work only as long the company running the game shows restraint. You used to be able to do just fine without the boutique in that game, and since you can buy gold off players with ingame currency, a good player could pretty much have anything they wanted. It was mostly mounts and fashion in the boutique anyways, the few consumables you would actually need you could get easy enough. Truth be told i mostly charged gold only to support the company that was providing me with a good game. Not that they needed any help, there were noobs, teens buying fashion and power levelers throwing plenty of money at them. Yea, the game was so grindy it would probably make the ears bleed on most people on this forums. But that worked fine for us and kept the WOW crowd out of the game. You had to earn your levels. I could outlevel the people using the cash shop xp boosts (had a couple in my safe which i never used) just being efficient, so i can say it was also casual friendly.

That was until they decided to put endgear on the cash shop and practically started selling levels. What happened was shameful. Rules started changing overnight, the game became a wallet race (which it hadnt been before) and the game got dumbed down despite no one complaining about the slow leveling. The scum of the internet flowed into the game. What was once a great comunity saw most of its veterans quit en masse because there was no loger any sense in competing and all of us who had explored and worked hard saw every effort we made in that game become worthless.

Yes, RMT could work beautifully but it never will because whoever runs the bussiness will always be able to squeeze just a few more bucks out of players. And once they start down that road they wont stop because the bottomline is their bussiness would rather have the people that blows two grand in as many months, than the ones that may pay 30 or even 50 dollars a month in a game they plan to play for years. I thought at first the changes would be temporary and started charging more of my money, until i realized the game was ruined and whatever i could spend on it wasnt gonna bring it back. Got so upset i even made the mistake of going back to WOW...

MMOs are a bussiness venture, the second gameplay becomes affected by RMT you know its just a matter of time before things get out of hand. The problem is that like the proverbial frog sitting in a pot of water, youll never know to jump out before it burns you. Ill never again play an f2p or a game with any form of RMT, learned my lesson the hard way.

There are good f2ps out there, but no matter how good the game, RMT will always ruin it.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

In a F2P game, things are not equal. MAybe you had an xp boost potion, maybe you bought a +1 to mana ring so you have less downtime, maybe you bought a pet that lets you make xp faster, etc. etc. We are not equl.

If you don't care about an equal game, it doesn't matter. If you do, you play P2P games.

Apparently there are  A LOT OF people who don't care about fairness. You can argue how much money developers can get out of these people but there are MILLIONS of people playing Maple Story, ROM, Free Realms and so on ...

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

In a F2P game, things are not equal. MAybe you had an xp boost potion, maybe you bought a +1 to mana ring so you have less downtime, maybe you bought a pet that lets you make xp faster, etc. etc. We are not equl.

If you don't care about an equal game, it doesn't matter. If you do, you play P2P games.

 

Apparently there are  A LOT OF people who don't care about fairness. You can argue how much money developers can get out of these people but there are MILLIONS of people playing Maple Story, ROM, Free Realms and so on ...

They either don't care about fairness, or they see F2P games as totally fair.

Either way, there's F2P games for those players, and P2P games for the payers that prefer what they consider an even playing field in their games.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

They either don't care about fairness, or they see F2P games as totally fair.

Either way, there's F2P games for those players, and P2P games for the payers that prefer what they consider an even playing field in their games.

F2P players DO care about fairness and we do get fairness in F2P titles otherwise people are less likely to play. The F2P market has been receiving more and more MMORPG with PvP and what does people want when it comes to PvP? Fairness. Saying F2P players don't care about fairness is pure ignorance and a close-minded comment.

The F2P and P2P model are 2 different models that catters to different players based on their preference, time/schedule, etc. In no way does playing F2P = Doesn't care about fairness or see F2P games as fair.

“A cash shop system can work only as long the company running the game shows restraint.”

And there lies the problem, sooner or later the people running the MMO lose any sense of fair play. The game becomes a cash cow for them, nothing else.

I believe F2P tend to have a younger demographic, one not prone to introspection, so not thinking so much about fairness is par for the course.

Sorry but I can’t believe that a F2P free expansion had the depth of say Lotro new zones like Evendim and Forochel. It may just be down to what we play, but there it is.

Originally posted by Scot

“A cash shop system can work only as long the company running the game shows restraint.”

And there lies the problem, sooner or later the people running the MMO lose any sense of fair play. The game becomes a cash cow for them, nothing else.

I believe F2P tend to have a younger demographic, one not prone to introspection, so not thinking so much about fairness is par for the course.

Sorry but I can’t believe that a F2P free expansion had the depth of say Lotro new zones like Evendim and Forochel. It may just be down to what we play, but there it is.

Cash shops are much more likely to be balanced for a simple reason. It's a younger demographic and if there's one thing you can expect from this group is an immediate reaction when something is unfair. Most F2P MMORPG (with cash shop that imbalance the game) have some of the lowest amount of population on the market while other F2P titles (where you can be competitive without cash shop) are.....at the top (Atlantica, Runes Of Magic, etc).

As for your last line "Sorry but I can't believe that a F2P free expansion had the depth of say Lotro", I am forced to ask: Have you ever played a F2P MMORPG? (we're talking about the popular games like Runes Of Magic or Mabinogi and not some pointless-kid-vaccum-maplestory)

Originally posted by MadnessRealm

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

They either don't care about fairness, or they see F2P games as totally fair.

Either way, there's F2P games for those players, and P2P games for the payers that prefer what they consider an even playing field in their games.

 

F2P players DO care about fairness and we do get fairness in F2P titles otherwise people are less likely to play. The F2P market has been receiving more and more MMORPG with PvP and what does people want when it comes to PvP? Fairness. Saying F2P players don't care about fairness is pure ignorance and a close-minded comment.

The F2P and P2P model are 2 different models that catters to different players based on their preference, time/schedule, etc. In no way does playing F2P = Doesn't care about fairness or see F2P games as fair.

In other threads the majority of P2P players that stated they would not play a F2P game, most said it wasn't anything to do with time schedule. It was an issue of fairness.

Obviously you think the F2P model is fair, and most players that will not play F2P games see then as unfair.

It doesn't ,mean you are wrong, or they are wrong, just that you have a different idea of what is fair in a game.

You think it's quite fair to buy progress, others think this is unfair.

A grand isn't much for Perfect World.  Here is a small break down for just charms.

Gold HP/MP charms- 5 bucks for one.

You can burn through 1 of each in a hard day of grinding.     $10.00/day+(0.30 insurance cost with dolls that prevent exp/item loss on death)

If you do territory wars, expects 1-2 of each for a single TW(up to 3for a weekend).  $10-20/TW

You still have mounts, flying mounts, and item refining that assist in pvp advantage. As of late it has been events that are geared toward cash shop buying to allow quick leveling.

Originally posted by Knightcry

A grand isn't much for Perfect World.  Here is a small break down for just charms.

Gold HP/MP charms- 5 bucks for one.

You can burn through 1 of each in a hard day of grinding.     $10.00/day+(0.30 insurance cost with dolls that prevent exp/item loss on death)

If you do territory wars, expects 1-2 of each for a single TW(up to 3for a weekend).  $10-20/TW

 

You still have mounts, flying mounts, and item refining that assist in pvp advantage. As of late it has been events that are geared toward cash shop buying to allow quick leveling.

Why do we bother with the game? Why don't I get a guild, and you get a guild, and we just use paypal and we all charge our credit cards, and the guild with the highest total that month wins? Then we send you some Iwin! pixels.

 The only flaw I see is a superficial one in that most people think of F2P as any one of the many asian grind fests you see linked too on the main page.  They might try one thinking its free what the heck and then realize after getting to level 10 the game is a ridiculous grind unless you pay for special items and they end up installing the piece of crap.  Thats what most of the asian grindfests are, F2P pieces of crap.  That tends to give the genre a bad name.