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sorry but il hope youl excuse me for not reading all the replies but is this game going to be text based? anf i really like the depth youve gone into each charcter if a big game was to do this it certianly be very intresting

Originally posted by biofellis

You know what? You're right. Your game has nothing to do with anything that has come before. It's completely revolutionary- a true work of genius! Which begs to ask 'how you expect anyone to get it' with what little you've said- but hey- water under the bridge. At this point it's obvious how so much more bloody clever you are than me, so I really don't care. I'm shamed in the light of your obvious self-claimed superiority. I'm not even going to debate your apparent 'I dare you'/'because you dared'/'who said there was a dare' schizophrenia (all in your own quoted text no less)- nope. I'm sure there's a reason I don't get that either. Just make your awesome, perfect game, and when it's done, I'll be happy to pay for the privilege of playing it. But of 'course, me being so clueless and all I won't get it and will just die a lot- even though I know from the designer to run from fights--  but I'm sure- uber designer that you are- that I'll have fun-- ooh, except I'm not a RPer of your standard, so I probably won't get the feel for repeatedly dying in the context you've framed, but maybe I'll group up with someone who can explain to me- real slow like cause I'm so dumb- So I can properly enjoy dying, never improving- and being completely powerless in situations you've so expertly crafted. I'll want months of that!

Take care, and remember- 'Don't listen to people with suggestions, they're just attacking you, and they can't know a thing that's useful. It's clear without even knowing that they haven't got a background that justifies their sorry opinion, and their opinion is especially meaningless if it came from reading inadequately fleshed out thumbnail descriptions. (that's their fault too.)

Stay true to your idea- don't let anyone encourage you or tell you it's good- They don't mean it- especially if they don't agree with everything blindly and kiss your ass for your un-erring vision.

Good luck!

You can be as passive-aggressive as you want to - but you are not understanding that this game is the ultimate learning curve. It's not going to be uber-successful, but if anything, games like EVE have showed us all that doing something radically different will prove successful over time - as people get used to the idea since [somebody] will be enjoying it. There are too many bad examples of games going under long before they can grab the target audience (thank you NCsoft), and now people just assume that if it doesn't get 500k subs it's not worth making. That's all I have to worry about, and to that point - this game will prolly not get made, it's just one of many concepts I have to offer that bolster my portfolio and show my range.

Everything about this game doesn't resonate with you "because you don't get it", that's all there is to it... and that stems from your holier-than-thou attitude about not wanting to [force] players to do anything. That mentality gets you nowhere, because players need to be [driven] to play - why do you think sandboxes are niche? Players have no [drive] without clear-cut goals, and this game is able to spell out every little aspect as a personal goal, from every angle of what content there is to do, the only difference is that the limitations put in are to keep one character from doing it all - negating every intricate system for reputation granting the available quests, to keeping the player from meddling in the affairs outside their sphere. Everything is there to [make] players deal with players as quest content - you find a body, can start a quest to solve it's murder - but can only do so much once you find the killer without having the backing of the law to do anything about it. In the least you can report him, then he has a price on his head, and everyone then has a chance to get him back and return stolen goods (also a quest constituent for bonus reward).

I have thought out EVERY little possible situation that can ever happen, and dealt with it in a manner that the "system fixes itself". Every unfair advantage you see is met with another in a circle that promotes player-made-content without having them realize it. It's the one game where players are giving themselves quests, and it's disguised in a way to make them think otherwise.

You can't begin to understand the "social mechanics" in play, and how it gets players to DO what they otherwise wouldn't.

Originally posted by scruffo

sorry but il hope youl excuse me for not reading all the replies but is this game going to be text based? anf i really like the depth youve gone into each charcter if a big game was to do this it certianly be very intresting

I can see how you would think so, heh... but no, it's a 3rd person action game. Basically a sandbox in nature, but kingdoms have an "evolving theme park" feel. The issue will be implementing the crazy amount of mechanical issues per class, and the way law/investigation works has never been handled yet, so nobody would have an example to draw an idea from...

My only worry is that combat is faster-paced than the rest of the game can be, but I already figured up a way to throw in PvP instances with fast respawn to get the most out of it. In the open world it's going to be typically harsh, like any FFA game, only the system for consequences are so deep that you only get in trouble "if caught". I've been over many individual points of that in the previous argument, so I don''t feel like stretching it out further atm.

The thing to keep in mind is that classes are not mandatory, and by staying a Freelancer you can do many things they cannot - but by sacrificing that freedom, the classes become more important figures in a local sense, being able to hook you up with quests of any size and handle politics between the many things that go on from the upper echelons of government, to the foot soldiers of a Kingdom's army, to the NPC citizens who have their own opinions of you based on your allegiances and past efforts.

It's as deep as it gets in terms of "writing a scenario for every occasion", and that takes an inhuman amount of forethought (then again, I am a writer - that takes forethought to the fullest).

The problem with allowing players to "hand out quests", and having dead/robbed players be a source for quests, is the amount of freedom that this puts into player's hands. I expect that there will be ways for people to work together to increase their reputaiton/honor/money/whatever faster than you (the game designer) expected.

As for the Priest, of course he will be targeted in PvP... As was said before, any single person who is increasing the combat ability of a group of enemies... Is going to be targeted and taken down first. That's pretty frustrating for the players, until they get into a group that understands the need to protect them.

The Deciever sounds interesting, but I'm not sure what you mean to say for them. Are they double-agents, joining the enemy and secretly corrupting them from the inside?

I don't see the Tradesman or Lord being very exciting, but there are players out there who like to craft stuff (or manage politics, just look at all the reality sim games out there) all day. But the classes sound very tedious after awhile, and I don't think even the most die-hard Railroad Sim players would stick around for long before rerolling something else. On the other hand, it sounds like these classes would be... less involved than other classes. Really, how much time does managing virtual property or goods require?

Inquisitors sound like a fun class to play (I'd be spouting Columbo lines every five minutes - I just know it), but I suspect that the "peer into inventory" ability will be abused by PKers, to locate targets with the best loot.

Medicants and Shaman... Same as for Priests really.

Originally posted by phazmatis

The problem with allowing players to "hand out quests", and having dead/robbed players be a source for quests, is the amount of freedom that this puts into player's hands. I expect that there will be ways for people to work together to increase their reputaiton/honor/money/whatever faster than you (the game designer) expected.

You are correct in terms of players coordination with robbers to cycle some kind of reward structure from it, but beyond the distances needed to travel to keep it going (without interference), there is also the lack of communication from outlaws in any form of communication beyond local, not even the courier /tell system. It still leaves it wide open for reputation abuse, and I will need to think more on it, but the monetary rewards for bounty are placed by players themselves - and bounties can only be applied to people with a crime you have "evidence" against, like if it was done to you, or you somehow flagged the investigation.

As for handing out quests through class status, it's not as intricate as you would think in terms of customization, but it is intricate. There are basically a number of instances that hold content in them, or a number of things needing doing around the city that's not even combat oriented, that the classes can line you up with. The more the content is done, the better the city does through a relationship to that instance, or the act done. One could be about robbers stealing food for instance, and the more it's taken care of, the better prices and yields in the kingdom will be. Basically the classes are entrenched in the story of the kingdom or force they join, and do things (as well as entice others to do so), in order to benefit from it as a whole - and as an individual, as each conscript you make do this content reflects on your records. I see an issue with guild-favoritism on who gets to hand it out and therefore gain, but then guilds are either tied to politics, or not, and the guilds act as a separate ladder amongst individuals... so the most active guild could run things for a bit, and why not? The rule is that an active player is what makes the best person to have a job that requires being active, like class politics.

As for the Priest, of course he will be targeted in PvP... As was said before, any single person who is increasing the combat ability of a group of enemies... Is going to be targeted and taken down first. That's pretty frustrating for the players, until they get into a group that understands the need to protect them.

Again I have to disagree as any time wasted on chasing a priest down makes you far more open to his fighters in tow. This is an action game, so bear in mind that you going to get cleaved for not paying attention to guys that will maul you. I have gone over the situation many, many times... you need to be on your toes in melee combat in this game, make timed attacks and aim at unprotected parts. If your back is turned you are mince meat, and even if it took one guy's death to take down the priest, he wasted his time since the boosts given by the priest only affect when you are actually [hit]. Action game... action game. We are talking 2-3 unguarded hits to a limb and you'll lose it (and prolly die when bleeding out on the ground). That priest is not going to heal anyone up to their feet in the time it takes for a scuffle to end, and yes limbs can be sewed on - I am really stretching it there, but it's an option.

I see [one] situation where if the priest is chased off, and his team spend their effort in saving him - they will in turn be picked off. The only strategy for taking out a priest first is hoping that nobody else has enough first-aid skill to rez him from incap (mostly likely it's down to chance at that point), and if somebody actually deathblows him they get hit with a debuff of doom. Priests don't do that much for you like you expect them to, the buffs are passive, but this is an action game and that means none of it hints to accuracy - though does raise parry mitigation slightly. Really, I put the priest in combat idea simply so they can hang out with people in a realm outside their own, adding the social element of a mascot there. Killing the mascot is really going to do nobody any good during the fight, and I think this is just an expectation made from other games where healers can heal "on the spot". Which doesn't happen here. Keep the quickness of combat in mind if not paying attention to your sides and back, other games don't take this in mind and play a war of attrition - this game is twitch to no end, and choosing the wrong target is the primary mistake in battle.

Also keep in mind that bleedout timers kill based on severity of the incapping wound, and incaps from concussion last longer. So a priest can be put down and out long enough for his entire crew to bleed out - but in most cases the winning team would wander around sticking spears in them for a DB and laugh at the priest, rob him, and tell him to walk home.

The Deciever sounds interesting, but I'm not sure what you mean to say for them. Are they double-agents, joining the enemy and secretly corrupting them from the inside?

That has to be to hardest one to explain... basically it's a social class that can fight unrestricted, unlike it's counterpart the priest. Where the priest is to go out, make friends, start crusades, help farm/mine/labor in a kingdom, heal the wounded (player or otherwise), and grant blessings - The deceiver lacks a lot of what makes the priest (hopefully) a "welcome sight".

Deceivers are to keep up two identities; one as their cloaked/masked namesake, and one as a simple Freelancer like everyone else. The are a social class in that they are counter-intuitive to classes aiming at order (like Knights, etc) by meeting in private in the masked form (it's social group being that of a hidden society) and discussing how to ruffle their feathers. With all that is in place for policier types, they will undoubtedly piss the wrong person off with a search and seizure attempt, and this allows proper revenge in contacting an NPC middleman to meeting a deciever in costume who will do your bidding and take care of it. Usually in the form of hiring an assassin class, or maybe by going further and getting the knight to take a quest out in the woods that will have him meet a pack of brigands you hired.

Since communication is fickle in this game, decievers have a web of tunnels that are basically instant travel from an underground hub to various sectors of the city to meet without being seen in public. To converse with outlaws the Deciever should be in normal clothes on his way to the wilds where the outlaw towns are, then resume the costume as it's should be well known that guys in costumes offer interesting jobs that usually mean breaking the rules. It's a social class... in a bad way, heh.

I have thought about infiltration to other classes or groups as one, but that means having to put up with the mechanics in play to that infiltrated class, and messes with the system keeping the char creation from allowing opposing classes on the same server. It would be a way to do a lot more as a Deciever can play his private game, and get all the goodies a Policier might get when it comes to using/abusing the law... but it's something I would like to put in, even if it just means getting someone to do your dirty work for you - which you can totally do if you can talk others into basically anything.

I don't see the Tradesman or Lord being very exciting, but there are players out there who like to craft stuff (or manage politics, just look at all the reality sim games out there) all day. But the classes sound very tedious after awhile, and I don't think even the most die-hard Railroad Sim players would stick around for long before rerolling something else. On the other hand, it sounds like these classes would be... less involved than other classes. Really, how much time does managing virtual property or goods require?

I agree, but the emphasis on having other characters to play means your crafter can hook yourself up. Plus, I am sure some people will find the craft/gather game fascinating enough to become a tycoon in. Crafters have the ablity to get together and form bigger business-type guilds, and then it can lead to price wars, and all sorts of economic tomfoolery that only benefit themselves. Crafters can fight like anyone else too, and anyone can craft many basic things without being a crafter, but the only way to be a major player in the craft world is to dedicate a char to mastering a single craft - as many parts are used all around, and you are really inclined to make ties.

Lords may seem the same way, but it's more of a reward class for people that have made a lot of reputation and have played quite some time in political sectors. It's the caste that runs the entire government from who they are at war with, what outside trade negotiations come in, severity on the [many] law mechanics, many other things. It's really for those with extreme interest in the political game, but like crafters - they can fight just like anyone else.

As for managing property, is works as thus;

There are blocks of the entire kingdom on the inside of the walls, held by a set ladder of major lords, and ones that need to be built/expanded on the outside by a host of minor ones as they enlist. The more players that become lords, the bigger the kingdom gets. They run the land by getting people to rent out a spot and live/work in an existing structure, or by hiring a crafter (mason/carpenter/etc) to build one of the various structure types seen through the kingdom for reuse (single-piece assets with instanced interiors that can be decoed). Each major lord runs a burrough in the interior walls that are broken down into sections ran by minor lords under their patronage (and vote alongside them, do favors, etc), these cannot be changed around so much as some buildings are "historical", but they can so choose to renovate and reclass the zone as residential or business based on a council. On the outside there is a bit more freedom as anything can change if you can afford it, and everyone gets near-equal space to work with. There is a lone expectation as a lord though; you must pay out of pocket to own this land every in-game lunar cycle (month), you are to have renters pay you what you need to keep up this expectation - and the costs can change depending on how other things are going on (costs of food goes up, so does rent slightly) and it puts Lords in a position to give out quests that help manage stasis as mentioned above.

Inquisitors sound like a fun class to play (I'd be spouting Columbo lines every five minutes - I just know it), but I suspect that the "peer into inventory" ability will be abused by PKers, to locate targets with the best loot.

I think you misunderstand, the Policiers can't PK without losing their Policier status. Peering into the inventory helps find stolen goods and murder weapons to gain enough "evidence" to place a charge on them, but there are tons of things in place that prevent the abuse of this power. Can't steal from people, at all, and if you killed them after a peer you get indicted and kicked from roster. In the cases mentioned above where you need to "be caught" to be punished, the roles will flag upon breaking the rule at all if part of the class, but I can see where the confusion comes from in taking that point on getting caught.

Perhaps I might break it down into needing to have evidence that a Policier greefed you, but it would seem far easier to achieve than most charges made of done in the city, or near it. Assuming you were out so deep in the wild that you couldn't find your body for the proper evidence, then it becomes an issue, but then it raises whether I need to worry about that since the emphasis on the deep wild as a "no mans land" may give route for some classes to be crooked so long as they don't caught. May sound counter-intuitive to my stance on roles, but the punishment being expulsion is [huge] and life-altering for a character, and actually gives a bit of room to act out of role, but the consequences are so dire that I would think anyone would think twice.

That is prolly an angle on freedom vs role that does need rethinking; corrupt policiers.

As for scouting targets for brigands, I would like to leave that option open I guess, but without direct communication it's hard to help parties come down on the person without ventrilo or something. Either way, I already put the cooldown on this form of inventory check every 20-30 minutes, otherwise you have to use an option called "halt!" that tells a player he is being stopped by a policier. The can sumbit to a check, but the only option of refusal is to flee, and that procs a minor charge on you. You cannot be accosted like this all the time without making a report to a class rep and having inter-politics handle the offender. People in higher ranks can suspend people if complaints come in with their own form of evidence, as the use of skills like this log to each policier - and who it's done to - to chart activity and act accordingly.

Medicants and Shaman... Same as for Priests really.

Not really, they can actually defend themselves, but in different ways - so putting attention towards them, being parried then knifed in the back is a bad idea.

Mendicants cannot use blades, but they can use staves and clubs (the latter being a defensive wep, former offensive) and can fight like anyone else, along with bows being considered atm. The melee choices do not decapitate, but will incapacitate someone to a position where they can be deathblowed by another, since they cannot religiously. The mendicants perks are just being the peak of the first-aid healing style that is in this game. There are no instant heals, HoTs or anything to be used in battle - just what can be done after... and that should have no affect on who you choose to target for an attack, you're trying to make sure nobody walks away while remaining unscathed enough to go on unhindered.

Shamans can fight like any freelancer, blades, bows and all. They lack the healing of prowess of mendicants, but have an entire string of buffs/debuffs from their various powders that probably would make them a target above others. The thing to keep in mind though, is that buffs are helpful and not end-all, and dependent on supply - gotta find the mats and make these things.

The game lacks CC outside of PK classes btw, no way to support it in a group setting - but it helps enforce the 1v1 futility of trying to deal with them, all the while making the attack party open while they CC the first. Like I mentioned with Eaters taking an arrow after a pounce, or a Witch taking all sorts of death while trying to choke a single person at distance and holding still. PK classes are for people hunters, and in turn must be hunted in a group, or by hunter-hunters - either way would show the weaknesses applied, and I had to bring it up seeing how you didn't.

 

Sounds good... But limitations of in-game chat will not stop people from communicating. Teamspeak and vent are in widespread use, and if a coordinated group of people (even just 2) would have an advantage somehow, even if they can't speak in-game, you should assume that they will still have that advantage.

Originally posted by phazmatis

Sounds good... But limitations of in-game chat will not stop people from communicating. Teamspeak and vent are in widespread use, and if a coordinated group of people (even just 2) would have an advantage somehow, even if they can't speak in-game, you should assume that they will still have that advantage.

Indeed, the real issue being that PK classes are meant to fly solo, but that's not going to stop some people from keeping a roaming pack going all day no matter how hard limited the communication, or far the distances could be. I am going to have to take the idea further and implement a "drain" on the PKs if near each other, or their own corpse. Something like being within 50 yards of another PK class of the same type, or your corspe, and you cause all spells to fizzle if a witch, and all kills to debuff in stacks from a "meager kill" if Eater. It surely won't stop at just that, but it's the right direction to force them apart if they want to keep their demi-god combat prowess as intended.

I wonder how this affects Witched and Eaters grouping near each other though. I am trying to make it so it's simply too tempting to be near your opposing PK class without attempting to kill it, so perhaps a similar debuff thing is best - but on a timer that tells each other that they are near an enemy and have a limited time before they start sapping each other's strength, making them weaker to each other, and anybody else - that would hopefully prevent the situation, as well as reinforce the hatred between the two.

Originally posted by biofellis

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The amount of times you wrote this on the thread is absurb (laughing).  Anyway OP this concept is pretty sweet, I like how your role determines your class instead of your class determines your role.  That being said, I can see problems with it that would not make it a fun experience.  What if you want to do more than just PK and your first character was a witch wicker? Make a whole seperate character? That would also require brand new progression so one would hope the progression is fun.  Wait a second, badass idea- imagine if you're a completely uneducated PK character that breaks off from your ways and begins to learn, and slowly becomes normal and begins to fill into a new niche such as paladin etc.  Wow...the options could be endless, awesome sauce. 

Originally posted by Chrisbox

Originally posted by biofellis

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The amount of times you wrote this on the thread is absurb (laughing). 

He had strong counterpoints in the place of those periods, but he got a warning for something in some other thread, and decided to remove all his old posts in lieu of deleting his account. he hasn't posted since, but I hope he decides to come back some day.

Anyway OP this concept is pretty sweet, I like how your role determines your class instead of your class determines your role.  That being said, I can see problems with it that would not make it a fun experience.  What if you want to do more than just PK and your first character was a witch wicker? Make a whole seperate character?

Well, you don't start off as a class, you have to do a quest string of different lengths, each varying in size depending on the 'privileges' and 'taboos' of said class. Becomeing a PK class is a hard thing to do, and *ironically* the original intention was that it would be damn near impossible to do if aleady branded a birgand/murderer - because you would need access to all the city-states to do their quest strings. Strange, I know.

The idea is that you would usually have to know what direction, in terms of class, that you want to go prior to making a character. Making a character female and setting complimentary stats and skills during creation would be needed to attempt it, and yes, you would have to make a seperate character for every class you want to play on a single server. Alt-tastic gameplay, though, I totally understand some people are totally opposed to that kind of setup. I wanted to make it so that you can't play all roles at once using the same face, the reputation system is an important asset to gameplay.

That would also require brand new progression so one would hope the progression is fun.  Wait a second, badass idea- imagine if you're a completely uneducated PK character that breaks off from your ways and begins to learn, and slowly becomes normal and begins to fill into a new niche such as paladin etc.  Wow...the options could be endless, awesome sauce. 

Technically, yes. A brigand/murderer could work towards forgiveness in many ways (serving a sentence, working for political players to aim at an appeal, making it up to NPCs he's wronged, etc), but the class-based factions themselves are less forgiving. Becoming a paladin and then fucking up and losing the right to be one may well block that character from ever coming back to it, but perhaps there is just more thought required on my behalf in that direction. I haven't really thought of this concept in years.

I just want to say it's really nice to see a game that puts the RPG back in MMORPG.

Originally posted by dreamscaper

I just want to say it's really nice to see a game that puts the RPG back in MMORPG.

Quiet you!

That's a clear invitation to call others in simply to insult me and give zero real feedback other than "what year is this?!".