I am very stoked upon completion of the class structure of my Low Fantasy MMO and I would like to show you "zee future of approaching class structure". This game is made for RPers, and the class structure is not based on how you fight - but what you do.

First; the unclassed Player and transitions.

Freelancer > Brigand > Murderer

When you create a character you choose an Origin (Race), City-State (Kingdom), and then Family (or lack thereof). With these factors you will have be able to start you character among many humble to noble roots, and the relationships to NPCs in this game are crucial as other players will be your kin if they make the same choices as you, and you all will be in charge of protecting that impromptu "family" while working your way into other circles.

A Freelancer though, is someone who is not tied down. Choosing a class requires a change in "lifestyle" as you submit to the rules of that role. You can go the entire game without a class and do what you want, but classes themselves are basically about what you want to do as a character. You could go Brigand or Murderer status by robbing/killing NPCs or Players and spend your time in outlaw dens, but that's not getting covered here.

Onto the meat; note that pairings associate an enemy relationship, and choosing one locks out the other to your presence on a server. Melee is the main form of combat in the game, archery leaving you way too open to use in close quarters, so classes don't lean towards any weapon preferences - keep this in mind. Magic exists, but it's "subtle" and only available to certain classes. Every class acts as a "faction" in itself, and the only chat line beyond local is given to people in guilds and dedicated to a class.

Warriors; Mercenaries / Knights

These classes are for players that like to fight, and a lot. Going either route opens up a lot of content for PvE combat quests, but you can take anyone with you really.

Mercenaries have the ability to work abroad and fight wars for any city-state without a declaration of war, but suffer the consequences of rep loss. They can pull weapons out to intimidate NPCs and Players without it being a reportable offense, unless a Knight, NPC guard or Policing caste of class is not present to witness it an proc a right to arrest. Mercenary-only guilds are put on a ladder of PvP and PvE quests to see what guild speaks for the guild of mercs - individuals are on no such ladder.

Knights are stuck to a city-state they devote themselves to and find themselves cleaning up the mess of mercs constantly. They play a hybrid warrior/policier that has the access to PvE combat missions others don't, as well as the ability to enforce the law and investigate crimes commited by Players and NPCs (a great function I've worked up). The perks of knighthood are a ration of equipment (that is easily lost in death), a personal home in the city, and the influence of the law. The bad side is that you cannot work for any other kingdom without the diplomatic classes handing you a contract negotiated by both sides to do so. You must also keep a sigil of your kingdom on you at all times, whether armor, shield, whatever - this affects how NPCs in other kingdoms and lower castes treat you, and may lock out quests till they trust you more through doing "deeds" (the act of questing/patrols/investigations/labor/charity in the kingdom). You are expected to keep up a number of "deeds" to maintain status amongst other knights in a ladder for knight-only guilds, as well as individuals.

Infiltration and Stealth: Thieves / Assassins

These classes are for people who like to steal or do a stealth kill (in PvE) respectively, but they are techincally law abiding groups with a long history of political ties and tradition. They both are about running along rooftops, climbing around places, getting into houses and doing what they like best; looting or killing, either or.

Thieves are a loose organization of "nabbers for hire" that get quests to recieve items from NPCs or Player alike, the latter only at the request of other Players, with sanction of a Player in the the political class through a contract allowing them to do so... there is a lot of coordination between players in this game - it's a social MMO for RPers after all. Thieves are allowed to steal on their own, anyone can, but only thieves can avoid Brigand status due to the nature of the job. The only trick is that you can't get caught, because the guild of theives does not like to bail you out. Killing is outright and can get you expelled unless it was self-defense (the game knows who draws first). In that case, you must pay grievances to the deceased in order to quiet what could be an issue for all thieves. They very much hate assassins and don't want the rep.

Assassins on the other hand get hired to kill in the same fashion as Theives get contracts to steal. Except this class is not allowed to kill anyone without a contract, or without having the NPC or enemy Player draw first. Failure to keep up this rule leads to an increasingly hard quest chain of redemption, the more you screw up - the less likely you will be forgiven. Most PvE contracts are meant to give you a range of choices on how to approach it, and may feature stipulations like "only the target dies", or "everyone must die and not escape", meaning you have to kill each one without alerting the rest. This class is for the PvE ganker, but there are times where you may get the chance to legally off a Player - and that is when you can get creative as to your approach. There is a latent investigation game in which you ask NPCs to the location of players with a success based on many factors, including rep and family ties, as well as if they trust you or not, or even suspect you of foul play and notify the Player you are looking for via "courier" (the /tell system).

Social: Priest / Deceiver

This might come as a shock to you, but these classes are meant to suck in combat. They are primarily [social] roles in getting you to hang out with other players doing favors, asking favors, lining up quests, many things; depends on which class.

Priests [cannot] fight, let's get that out of the way. Dedicating yourself to the priestly art means a lot, and you can no longer draw a weapon, even though you can carry one at the ready. Your main job is to pick one of the many convents to do charity and work for, or wander the map in search of things to do. Animals do not attack you, but NPC humanoids still might, as well as players - but killing a priest is a baaaad thing that caused a major debuff to the murderer, you can rob em and wound em, just don't kill em. The main points to being a priest is the many blessings you can cast, things from gains in resource yields to slight buffs that last a long time - there are no flashy lights though as all magic is meant to be subtle, the supernatural is as vague and mysterious as it is in the real world here. Even though priests can't fight, they are well versed in medicine and the simple act of praying does wonders in combat for a team. Priests basically add a "luck bonus" just for being there, so everyone loves em for the sacrifice they make.

Deceivers are more politician than priest. They are a hidden sect of nobles and rich lineage that found the old Gods of the game's setting interesting enough to worship in a "mock religion" kind of way. Somewhat of a Bohemian order dedicated to controlling things behind the scenes what commiting blasphemies to the church "because they can", they don't believe in any of it for the most part. Someone in this class gets to play Devil's Advocate, they recieve a mask and cloak that hide their identity to other players under thier "sect name" the player gets to choose. It's in this form that the player can generally cause discord in assigning other players quests that interfere with another group's goal in some way, both in PvE and PvP, and they are usually the ones setting up battles to come through cunning. They are to keep their identity a secret, and if any of them were to be investigated and charged it's immediate expulsion with no backing. They can fight unlike priests, but the mask and cloak are not magical to any extent - they have the capability of any Freelancer, and will seem as such to all others.

Economic and Political: Tradesman / Lord

Any player can take a craft and live in a home, but only these classes can own a business or the very land itself respectively.

Tradesmen are the crafters of the game, they are able to band up and start businesses after choosing a craft to master in. They can hire out for resources with quest contracts, then make things and sell them from thier vendors within the kingdom. They have to deal with the Lords (the political sector) in order to acquire a place of business, as well as to assign regulations and taxes. Basically they live on the Lord's land and pay them to work it, and because of it they have a general mistrust (and you can't play both and help yourself).

Lords are the trickiest class I am trying to employ. It's kind of like a 2nd tier class, in that any other Class can move up to it if they have enough reputation in a single Kingdom - they are as tied to a flag as Knights are - and suffer similar restrictions when it comes to dealing with other Kingdoms. This usually requires negotiations with Lord of that Kingdom with the proper ranking in the ladder amongst them to sign it. The basic job of the Lord is to deal with the major politics of the game kingdom to kingdom, and when assigning land rights. You are to employ yourself to a greater Lord on the ranking that owns land and help him moderate it with the players using it. Plots are sectored out in major sections broken into 3-5 smaller ones that allow one lord to baron over it all and assign others to handle the smaller ones in his stead. These smaller slots are what player groups will rent out for homes, guild halls and businesses. There are limited spaces, but more could be added in over time, along with a system to tie player activity to job performance that determines term limits.

Policiers: Paladin / Inquisitor

These are the roles for players that want to be the law, and bring a rightous hammer down on enemies of the church, as well as enemies of the state.

Paladins are meant for one reason; magic tank. They are the main line of defense against the PK classes, and called in to handle them when they harass an area. The role is techinically that of a holy warrior, and they work closely with priests, but just as much as their work can have them travel to other kingdoms under the church's banner (the chruch is everywhere). This class for all purposes IS a knight, but lacks the specific amount of cred in a chosen kingdom as knights and lacks the personal house as a given. The only thing setting them apart is the amount of pros and cons to the class. In combat you can shrug off magic in various ways depending on the situation, a good example is the "stand firm" passive skill that has high chance of magic fizzle as long as you don't move when struck, with a for sure fizzle if you block at the right time. There is a list of "Taboos" (the in-game term) that limits the Paladin lifestyle though; automatic tithing, failure to bath has a faith debuff, can't turn down certain quests once requested to do so (out of chivalry), some other things I can't remember too.

Inquisitors are [the] master investigator and the real hand of the law. They can arrange charges to be filed like any policier, but they also can sign warrants for arrest once they make it onto the ladder standings of the group. Each Kingdom has it's own splinter guild of Inquisitors (like Paladins for that matter), but they generally work together and can ask for outside help and invesitgate in other Kingdoms without treaties. The main perk of the class is the ability to inspect an NPC or Player for clues without stopping that person in their tracks and submitting them to a search and seizure like other policiers - they cna peer right in your inventory for stolen items or murder weapons and then charge you. For a class that is intrisically tied to the church, they tend to put their faith in science and logic, which causes a bit of a divide bewteen other church devotees as they can choose between church and state at will.

Player Killers: Wicker Witch / Bone Eater

I got creative with these classes, as both are a way to enforce the idea that if you are a ganking jerk you should be allowed to be one... but then you gotta hang out with your own kind - forever. Both classes are not allowed in range of any civilization and get a new hub in which to hang out with thier fellow douchebags. They get around through "hollows", random spawn points to the wilds through holes in the agarthan underground to the surface (not covering game setting this round). All classes have their own custom forms of crafting primitive tools, as well as different needs when it comes to consuming food/water to survive, both being cannibal helps.

Wicker Witches are female only, a tribe of sorts that have a home in a plane that seems like a boggy swamp with many homes made out of reeds. The lore behind them, without getting all Tolkien on you people, is that "a tribal mother ate her dead daughter to be part of her forever, got exiled, hates men". Now it's a semi functional society of cannabals and killers. The way to enter is a loooong and hard quest string in which you murder a string of NPCs (pissing off players who will avenge their kin) and then feed the parts to their kidnapped hier to induct her as well as yourself. A vile act that I am trying to make far more poetic that it sounds here when put frankly. Anyway, the Witch is really the [only] magic user in the game beyond the priest, and it gets it's power through "suggestion". To best explain the subtlety of this kind of magic is through the Witches primary weapon the "effigy". You stand on a surface texture and animate a 2 second scoop animation to form a consumable doll for a spell - but the materials scooped up range from dirt, mud, leaves and other detritus and have different uses. Ivy dolls strangles you with your own mind, sand kicks up an arc of dust in an AoE radial, mud makes the enemy's legs boggy up. No crazy particle effects involved, etc. This class' arsenal [will] let it kick more ass than it should be allowed - but that is what gives Paladins a job, the Witches stand no match for them as they can shrug off the effects easily and continue pursuit. The plus sides to the Witches are outweighed by TONS of bad things; like being diametrically opposed to water - can't bathe, cant submerge - you stand on the surface, and this helps players to escape them by swimming away.

Bone Eaters are male only, a tribe of hunters beyond compare that went into the mind of the beast and never returned. The lore states that men used to skin their prey and walk amongst them wearing it as camoflage. Eventually it went to their heads and they would wipe out entire herds out of bloodlust and ended up themselves being hunted to extinction. This is not the case though as they now exist on a plane of existance resembling a desert in eternal night where the starry sky never sits still - in fact an NPC stares at it for all eternity in order to see the future, important dude in this society. The brothers care about one thing, "a good fight", and while they can be seen as gankers, they really don't have any progression within the ranks for killing weaklings. They are a melee class, and melee to the teeth. Their abilities are determined by what carcass they are wearing, and by killing a large beast you are able to "consume it" and become it. You could be a bearman, or part boar or wolf, tons of choices and they each have a tactic to it... but all involve melee. They will kick you ass in melee too, they are meant to scare the shit out of players, even paladins - but they have one weakness; arrows. An ancestral memory in the beast they inhabit strikes crippling fear of arrows in them, and being struck by one is devastating in terms of damage, but also will really mess with the player piloting the were-man.

Explorers: Hunter / Warden

These classes are about seeing places, and their realms are in the wilds and city streets respectively.

Hunters are exactly what you would think, men of the wilds with bows on their backs - it doesn't make it a ranged class in the least bit though - it's just the tool of hunters, they carry swords for handling men. Their tracking skills are unparalled, and this comes in handy when hunting in the wilds for beasts, or helping in an investigation in a kingdom. Hunters see the open wild as their oyster, but for most purposes, all the land out there is owned by somebody - and that is where they run into contention with wardens.

Wardens are not keepers of the wild, they are quite the opposite - they are personal bodyguards of nobility and land owners that have to handle issues for their employers. This leads the above issues with hunters as poaching on thier land is not welcome. This interpretation is just the common instance of wardens though, the lifestyle originated in old tribes that had a custom where a man would dedicate his life to another family or person for a life-altering favor in return - that favor has been rolled into wages these days, but the mystique of being the charge of a clan has led these people to being major players in the workings of clans as the "go to guys". The life of a warden is a lot like being the majordomo to any lord; one minute you could be enacting bloddy revenge, the next escorting the master's child to school. The wardens oyster is the city though, and through his work a warden will get very acquainted with it.

Healers: Mendicant / Shaman

When the kingdoms sent missions to the local tribes they met resistance from the south, but total compliance from the north - and their knowledge of herbalism has created two outlooks on the caste of healers.

Mendicants are church healers and apothacaries, well educated and use traditional medicines to treat wounds and diseases. Unlike priests, Mendicants can fight back, but are not allowed any kind of blade due to the oath. This leaves only the option of staves, clubs, maces and bows (which were overlooked, heh). Healing in this game is a slow affair, you can get wounded, poisoned and diseased easily and without someone to help you treat it (though you can try yourself with crap skills(, you are best leaving it in the hands of an expert.

Shamans are a remnant of the old ways and at odds with the Mendicants and church in general because they deal in hollistic tinctures that can be referred to as drugs. The tribes may have found a calling when the missions came, but those that clung to tradition found a calling in the cities where clients from all walks of life would be looking for whatever prescriptions the shamans might have handy. Some shamans see them as helping people, other see it as purely business, but the church sees them as a scourge and does whatever it can to discredit thier work. The work of shamans in battle is namely to cause buffs and debuffs through what I guess you could call ritualistic magic, somewhat like the Witches, but with dusts and ashes. They have no limitations in combat, but do not get any bonuses from any priests present - nor can they recieve blessings.

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Options; Character creation does have a LOT of options, but the classes are not one of them. Everyone starts a base open template of a Freelancer and then must work on skillsets and add towards attributes needed to open the option to join a class. Each one has a string of quests where the end of each one explains a tasset of the job through a "privilege" that adds a positive point, or a "taboo" enforcing a negative one. For instance, the taboo that says Paladins must bathe is learned during a quest to seek out a small holy pond and submerge in it, after doing so and completing it you get that Taboo of "must bathe often" listed until you choose to walk from the path, or finish the quest string and put all the priv/tabs in action. The WW has a LOT of taboos and privs so it's a really long quest - and well written imo.

Retargetting; I forgot to mention the other limitations on the PK classes. They get a chat for thier own class-faction - but only when inside the hub town for them, otherwise they are not allowed to send /tells through the "courier system" since no courier will deal with them (nor would they have money to pay), nor can they start a guild to gain that chat line. Neither PK class can loot either since the goods are no good to them, but they can eat other players and take trophies from them to rise in ranks amongst the class. They are forced to work ungrouped, and cannot provide support to each other or even communicate well enough without using local and informing everyone around while in the outside world. The PK classes are not the only ones that can kill as they like though, there is the Freelancer ability to go Brigand (robber) or Murderer. This kicks them out of major towns as well, but allows them to work with other crooks and guild, as well as do things the PK classes can't - like loot, horde and communicate better. By all means though the PK classes are way hard to deal with, and are [meant] to flee from unless you are a policier type class and should have no fear from monsters, as it's your job to deal with them. Normal players need to see them as the hunter, they put up with a lot of negatives for all those positives.

Duty; I thought so at first, but the Knight is one of the most well-rounded classes there is when it comes to options. Everything falls down to the need to do deeds within your own kingdom - and this falls upon any number of quest materials from combat, to investigations, to helping NPCs in the kingdom do things like hunt and farm. They get way more things to do in a preferred kingdom compared to any other class that hasn't worked the rep up to do so, and there are some things only they can recieve quests for. Only problem is they are basically stuck to working in a single Kingdom, but the perks are great.

Limitations; well it occured to me when making this concept that in order to enforce RP elements and standing points in the class structure it would have to be enforced. The lore is that theives don't kill, if you did your simply a brigand, and any player trying to break these RP rules finds themself an outlaw. IMO it helps enforce the rules while being disguised as a mechanic, I do question how RPers will take having all backstory done for them, but that is one of the finer points of this experiment. As for helplessness... maybe when facing a PK class as a non-policier type, but I meant for that. Players need to feel like the hunted when it comes to the PK class, flee or die trying, it's not like they are going to loot you - but it's also not like you can report the murder and get an arrest warrant issue either - PK classes are KoS to all anyway.

Gender; I know exactly what you mean, I had to change the concept of slavery in this game so it doesn't offend minorities in the end either... but that is something I will not budge on for the PK classes as I have written the lore, and it's good, even if sexist. No other class is gender-defined, but if you seriously want to be a specific PK class then you had better choose which one beforehand and plan the character accordingly. The gender thing helps emphasize the hatred between the two classes that the others share, the male vs female setup of WW and Eaters are meant to face each other in a sort of "romantic hatred" as nobody hates these classes more than themselves, the men "hunting a dangerous woman" and vica versa. I see the idea of an Eater pouncing on a Witch and mangling her as something disturbingly romantic, as they are meant to hunt each other, as well as others. This is in favor of the Eaters though, as most magic simply doesn't work on them since the effigies are in the shape of a man, and the Eaters are barely men anymore. The witches can uses bows as a last resort and have tons of "misdirection" skills that will disorient the enemy, but the Eaters can close in on them fast/easily, so it will be interesting to see how balanced I can make that in the end while keeping up the lore-based ideas on it.

Low Fantasy; Ya I know, but I hate elves, dwarfs, trolls, ogres and dragons. I respect D&D and Tolkien, but I will forever leave those concepts to them. This is more like "Anglos vs Saxons Online" with a bit of Lovecraft inspired agarthan horror.

Tactical Advantage; Absolutely. I made the point above that they will have a hard time supporting each other and are meant to whoop on anybody but policiers, who in turn whoop on them. It's a cycling game of who gets to play the hunter, and while a witch can surely smoke a single dude or small group if caught unaware - they are still victim to melee and lack the usage of armor now. They are quite weak if it was not for the ranged spells and plethora of CC, but ya, they will kick your ass - so run - you are supposed to be afraid of them unless you are some kind of monster-hunting class type or just all about the challange. Also, there is no promise that groups of PK classes will even form on the outside since leaving the hub puts you outside a random hollow in the section of wild chosen to head to. You will spawn away from others and lack the communication to meet up without using an outside program. Healing in this game is tricky, and time consuming if the wounds no treated - and with no access to healing groups or support from others there is a timesink in getting battle ready if wounded as a PK class... waiting it off or trying to heal yourself to the best of your ability. There is probably no dominating the battlefield for too long without having to take a break.

Sounds awesome.   Though Id have to ask how you're making it easy to switch classes(to start I should say) so that players aren't very presured to check guides to make sure they're doing it "right"?   To be perfectly honest the process to switch and "rank" does sound a bit difficult to go up in for a "game", even if it sound very good for Roleplaying.

Also I think you shouldn't limit communication to the PK classes as much as you are since it only limits players playing within the game rules.   Not the ones using outside communication tools, which is almost required for MMOs these days.

Well there is no class switching really. You get 1 character slot for every pairing of classes there is, and if you choose one in a pairing it locks you from the other. The only way out is to break the rules for a "dishonorable exit" that may land you back to Freelancer, or with a criminal status of some kind if severe enough. I may put in an option to walk from it, but that supports class jumping - and reputation is supposed to precede you in this game, even to NPCs. It's hard to join a class too, since it requires a level of skill levels and attributes similar to how D&D style classes do it. You can go your entire career as a freelancer and work you way to better quests through the various sources, but joining a class put you in a reputation to get into a lot of it - and some things that others simply can't do, but you are free to invite them to it. The entry is through a series of quests, and some are easier to access than others - the PK ones take a lot of searching to find the source of the quest chain, and by the end of that chain you will have committed crimes all across the map and made yourself a permanent exile, while being a fresh hunt to players looking to get you now that they have an excuse.

Rankings are a very fickle thing and range from class to class, some classes lack rankings (like priests, hunters, wardens, mendicants and shamans). The ones that do lack ranking still have interior politics and chat channels - but in far differing ways. Hunters get a chat channel for other hunters in the same region, and Wardens get a chat channel for whatever players are kin to a clan they serve, as well and any player born to a family gets a chat channel to "relatives" through the char creation process. Criminals are blacklisted from using it though.

On to the original point of rankings; they are different in each class. Mercs only have a guild ranking for how much action they see, and the leading 5 form a council on how to deal with the rest in political matters. Knights have an interior knight-only guild (or squadrom, whatever you want to call it really) that balance on a similar ladder of 5, but individuals get be in a ranking of 21. The top three positions are elected by the 21 in the council, but the others spots have "term limits" where monthly the game will check the ladder of "deeds" that players do on their own and change it up. Lords have a purely Republic setup where the goal is to influence other lords to your cause, and it sets up a rank of major and minor lords serving them that all have equal sway - but politics is a device for changing sway isn't it, heh.

The lack of commincation is something I thought long and hard about to balance out the inherant gifts and weaknesses of the PK classes compared to the average Freelancer turned Murderer. See, the power granted (and measures taken) for the PK classes are there to make the solitary hunters on both ends that compete with each other for kills. They have nothing to lose, as they lose primitave gear that can be made from absolutely nothing and appear back in their hub and must reenter the outer world through a random entrance and re-navigate to prey. The Brigand/Murderer game is to allow more organized, and less competitive (no ranking) play in people that can guild up as robbers or PKers on thier own - but will lose it all on their bodies in loss. Plus they are weaker, and hunted by everyone if a price is on thier head. Also outlaw towns have no secure device for inventory as the game has no banks (only housing, and in this case, and easy to rob inn), so money is come and go, just like any other goods. As for people using ventrilo to cooridnate as a PK class, there is no stopping it, but the random entry into the huuuuge game world's surface, and lack of maps, will make it hard to meet up and dominate in pairs - and even then there is no supporting each other in or out of combat, and there is a bit of downtime if you are wounded (or you are just easier prey). Nobody can smash on people for too long without getting too weak to carry on, or end up dead and back at their respective hubs.

~I just had a badass idea. The game definitely doesn't want you to PvP and kill without reason since there are so many consequences, I had an idea for future developments going underground for more fluid FFA action where death makes you appear deeper underground and fight back to the surface, and looting is off besides what is picked up within - but that's not the idea, and still isn't fluid enough to take advantage of the awesome combat system I am cooking up (you lose limbs and bleed a lot). I am thinking of bringing in consequence-free instanced FFA/team battles with different rulesets when you sleep in a bed and enter a nightmare realm.

I think I am going to tie each area to a set of goals (or lack of them), in different structures ranging from impromptu groups upon entry, to full FFA, and other things in between. Each map would be tied to a reagent, like a somnus drug made by Shamans or some kind of wearable ornament that will link you to these zones when you sleep. There would be a number of settings, like an ancient battle of soldiers you take place in, or a hellish realm of FFA where you adopt a demonic look. You could even go in to some with your current specs, or play as a special role in whatever wargame goes on in that zone. I am prolly going to make it so they are released in unison with new content in order to give hints to future revelations in the overall story. Timelining in a sense.

Most likely the PvP zones will be tied to drugs and tinctures so that priests and mendicants have the taboo in not taking them, and therefore not participating in PvP. It's a role that goes a long way, and it'll keep the PvP there more fluid from the lack of buffers and healers anyway. There will be social dream zones for sure that they can kick it in through an item as well. PK classes will not have access due to the lack of a way to get the items, I don't know if that is good or bad though; maybe it's best to keep them focused in the open world, or maybe it's better to divert some attention. It would be easy to write them into the nightmare realms (or not) because of the way their hub realms exist.

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Options; Well there is one of the fickile things about RP. I am not much of one, but from the experiences I have had in games around people who were, they typically try to stay in-bounds of the lore of the game and roll with it. I have yet to see someone complain about anything other than breaking character, and that character is usually made up after they acquaint themselves with a story. Nobody comes into a game trying to recreate something from outside the spectrum, and if people did, then they would find themselves under fire from other RPers who will argue what they are doing has nothing to do with the setting - so it's not my problem, I give a world to RPers, they do what they do... and Paladins must bathe as they get dirty, it's not a matter of timers, it's a matter of collecting filth during your travels and it building up on your faith debuff until it's taken care of, or you become so filthy for weeks of playtime that your class might be stripped from you. Whenever you are in town from a long-ass quest is a good time for a bath, and bathhouses are a public thing, so I bring social elements to that as well.

Retargetting; They were going to use teamspeak no matter what I do, people use it anyway, no matter what. All I can do is provide as many stipulations to provide or prevent social play - and PK classes are meant to be solo hunters, while murderers are the grouped facet. With all the ladders going on in PK society there is no use to grouping and sharing kills, it's all about showing players the antisocial PK flavor, and if they really want to be organized they are better off going Murderer/Brigand. PK classes have so many limitations that the power is balanced out by every other factor making a player become a boss-strategy. It's hard to get into the class, it's hard to rise in it, it's hard to get around the world. I doubt you will see as many people play it as you assume there would be, and THAT is the balancing point. It's tasty, but it sucks sometimes, so it won't be [overdone] - unlike the possible Brigand/Murderer scene.

Duty; This is where you confuse the Knights of the Round Table and the Holy Grail for how Knights really worked with all the historical accounts we have. If you want to go on crusades, be a Paladin. Knights are only about their Kingdom, and this means they can be sent on monster hunts anywhere in thier lands, but they are NOT going to deal with issues in another land - never happened in history without an accord to do so (nor will it here), and the crusades are a completely different story all together. That was practically a war, which can be declared here by the Lord classes per-Kingdom, then fought by Knights all the same.

Limitations; Simply because I had to. It's an RP game, and that means if someone becomes a priest they can't go kicking ass in battle, it's just not what they do. Paladins can't steal no matter how hard they try - and all of it is a matter of keeping players from [breaking character] and annoying each other to no end. This even goes into why I have so many limitations on chat - because you can't stop the OOC bullshit when you get a global channel. RPers are gonna play this and meet in person, and the only times they will see congested chatlines from boring people out of character will be in the kin and class chatlines (which there is no stopping)... but I'll be damned if I am going to make this RP game with a global channel so all the true RPers can get all pissed that their bubble is constantly broken. It's also to keep things local, I don't want global trade, and instead I want players to find local sources of goods and search immediate areas for help. This is something I have learned in my many years of observance on the subject, and these facets are not changing whatsoever. You gotta do things TO the player for their own good sometimes, even if they disagree.

Tactical Advantage; Fairly sure I covered this above. Fairness is not an option, and fear and fleeing is something the player needs to consider. This game doesn't cater to certain generations of gamers, it's obviously niche, and people who pick the obviously OP classes will find themselves dealing with the hardships of all this. THAT is the balancing points, thing you WANT to do along with things you DON'T. If these PK classes were all fun and no work then the wilds would be distraught with them, same with any other class where you like something it does, but not other things. Assassin for instance, people would love the idea, and if you were free to kill anyone it would be FotM - that is why there are so many limitations, to make people think about all this. They should be looking for a "lifestyle" in-game that suits them, and nothing is stopping them from playing other chars, they just can't expect to keep up in the ladders without time and effort rolled into a single character.

~The only way to give everyone what they want is to allow custom classes that can mix and match available privileges and taboos, as well as write a backstory - but then how are you going to regulate what is and isn't lore-bound. Somebody could name themselves a clone trooper or something. There is just no way to do that, and from all accounts I have ever seen outside of an interchangable pen-and-paper game campaign, is that RPers work with the lore you give them - and always argue with guys breaking the feel of the game they see. This game is for them, not you or I if we can't adapt to dealing with the way they do things. I would play this, but I can see myself getting annoyed at all the consessions made to preserving RP - but that's how it is.

It's a game that [enforces] RP in more ways than one, all the way down to mechanical things, and it had to happen someday lol.

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Oh I know it's gonna get flak from traditionalists and convenience freaks for sure, but it's meant to be marketed to a strange breed of players that can't ever find the kind of RP junk that they try to do in other games and fail. This game is not about riding one class all the way unless you want to be a major part of the political scene, the social game is where it's at here. Knights may sound limited, but you don't see all that there is to do in the limits of a kingdom from domestics to combat, and they can get content other classes simply can't - in terms of policing.

Really it's about player-to-player interaction all the way, and what is to be expected from players taking a certain role. Everything is in place to keep players from deviating from the act they are supposed to put on, there is also the option of not taking a class if it really bugs someone - and that leaves all the freedom you want - but you have to work harder to experience some content that is granted to certain classes simply due to the reputation shifts in taking a class. It's about choosing a profession, a job, and it's clinging to the idea that all of it rolls back in to combat usage somehow that brings misinterpretations. PKs have a [job] to cause havok, and policiers have a [job] in cleaning it up.

Yes you have to flee from PK classes, but PK classes have to flee from policiers that can't put their hands on people and abuse that position. Part of the circle, and it's about being part of that circle. The PK thing is also there to influence play. PKers are not going to be able to help each other beyond taking the attention of targets though, they have no reason to group - and if need be I would put a debuff on them if close to each other to further discourage it. PK classes are for soloers, Brigand/Murderer status is WAY easier to achieve and is the organizes gank crews that people from FFA games are likely to join - and that comes with all the consequences - as well as a fraction of the power of the PK ones.

It's also about getting players to group out of safety, and not truly neccesity. There should be no assumptions that one person can take an army without the power of the PK classes, and by taking that oath, you lose out on a lot of social areas of the game for god-like powers of a one man army, and in the end you will be continual content in killing back and forth till you are sent back to your hub in death - the outside world is a hunting ground . If you go out alone in the wild as a non-PK class, you had better know what you are doing - because you may get caught by an NPC, Player or group of Players looking to kick your ass and can. Really, if anyone should be worried, it should be about non-PK class greefers. They will rob you, and be in packs. A single player with lots of power takes strategy and tactics to down - and a group - it's no different against any band of outlaws that can group for the unfair advantage... and you would run in that scenario too.

A lot of the PK class combat is what I have gotten from games like Left 4 Dead. Where a Bone Eater can pounce on someone, imobilizing and mauling them to death over a short period of time - but it leaves them open to an arrow from another. A witch has to focus on one guy at a time with a number of ranged health draining spells, during that they are open to attack, and only armed with stone knives. Group or die... or flee, that is why the option is there - and so many ways to evade them - like swimming underwater or on roads (which speed up movement only for non-PKs). The idea is to implement [fear] in one, and the feeling of the hunter in another. God forbid a game have something you can't survive, hell, a lot of the PvE has entities that cannot be stopped and hound you through an instance. It brings something to the table that people don't get anymore; futility.

This game is free of trying to balance anything beyond roles to play in the social game. Melee and ranged is something everyone can do, besides priests, and gets better as you use it. Classes are purely for those who know what elements they like best in the game, and it helps them do more of it through specialization. A lot of the limitations are drawn out in quests, stories and other key points of the game - you are meant to understand and absorb it... hard to do with a document like this I'm sure, but remember this is something people will [experience]. There is no telling how much they will hate or love it until a hands on, but for sure it's unlike anything they have seen yet. Doing something drastically different is the catchphrase of the day with MMOs, I would think something like this would send shockwaves - even if not comercially successful like ones that break 250K subs. It would get close though, very sure of that.

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 i opened this thread and it killed me instantly, can´t you summarize your posts a bit, i´m sure 80% of it is rubbish, lol :P

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Originally posted by vladakov

 i opened this thread and it killed me instantly, can´t you summarize your posts a bit, i´m sure 80% of it is rubbish, lol :P

I don't get it; are you trying to say it's TL;DR, or do you have some kind of literacy issue?

Either way, you are the kind of scumbag that ruins all the forums besides dev corner, so do us a favor and go back to bashing SWG, or whatever it is you do. Leave the thinking to the brains around here.

Originally posted by biofellis

I dunno- In PnP D&D , clerics are pretty shunned- and they're actually pretty good fighters and get prety good HP- second in line before thieves and mages- because of the responsibility/hassle- and you want to take that away completely? I'm not saying it doesn't fit into the proper mold- I'm just skeptical it'll get much play- You've definantly built a dependancy that makes Priests a true liability despite their strength.

• Always go for the Healer.
• Always Protect The Healer.
• Is the Healer ok?- it's getting pretty ugly.
• Of course not! He can't protect himself! He's a an easy kill, and we're dead without him!
• No matter the scenario, it's really 'Protect the Priest'.

In Magic the gathering, you can design and assemble yorur deck with creatures, spells and artifacts to try to anticipate the atack options of other colors. Except one. Two islands hit the table, and no matter what you were playing before, if those islands are untapped, you're now playing 'Mother may I'

• Mother may I cast Northern Paladin.?
• No you may not.

And then, when the clever player waits till blue taps out and spends 7 points casting Northern Paladin uncontested, the blue player simply spends four and takes it, thereby in one stroke killing an opponent and casting one simultaneously. For any other color to do something similar would take at least 16 points. But blue's not cheesy or unfair. Just play blue. Everyone play blue.

The game pretends it's all strategy- all the colors are about what you need to anticipate- how you can interact- except blue. Blue could really care less. The tools are so generalized and flexible, that you have to design a deck specifically against it- a good 40% at least- or you're screwed. But you don't think balance is important- and you have lots of love for the PK classes and I wish you luck though I know that's only going to go so far- Every MMO board is filled with balance complaints all the time- legitimate ones- imagined ones- barely noticable gripes- and the unreasonable answer is always 'change your class'- though the 'play another game' option is sometimes suggested too. So, why do developers design these games where everyone should gravitate toward and play a third of the classes? Or just one? Why'd they waste their time? Don't they have any concern for the players who just like the idea of a certain class, but keep getting pwned through no fault of their own? 'Let them group up.' They'll say. 'That's a support class.' which is fair enough- except PVP doesn't care- PVP likes sheep-flavored classes- it looks for wool and smiles.

Balance is important. It's ridiculously difficult, because context can change a lot, but it's a big deal- and worthy of consideration. Or not.

 

In Lineage 2, reds were people who performed an uncontested kill- PVP ganked someone who didn't fight back in the slightest. Let it be known that In Lineage 2, everyone's level was secret- so you never knew except maybe by how much damage you were taking how outclassed you were or weren't. Anyone could attack a red with no penalty- so reds became either high level groups, or, strangley enough- low level throwaway characters, griefing new players. I've seen low-reds grief for hours. I've seen players log off and probably never come back. There goes money never made.

We out leveled them twice in an hour, attacked them and killed them about 10-20 times each. Leveled two more times as we killed mobs while doing that. They just died laughing. Eventually, we moved forward.

Your limitations and decisions for class design have the potential to seriously get in the way of the expanding dynamic and interconnectedness- and ultimate success of your mmo.

Or, you've got it all worked out and I just don't get it. That's just as likely.

But running an MMO requires a minimum startup, and a minimum maintenace cost. Niche or not- I hope you can keep your subscriber base up to at least cover those. Longevity requires a solid base of satisfied customers. There are so many MMOs right now it's silly- so the signal to noise ratio for even attracting customers is prohibative- not even counting keeping them. But I'm ahead of your concerns I think.

Make it, get your niche market, be happy. Hell, all games that sound good keep their customers, right?

I hope it works out like that for you. Again, best of luck.

Again it's not about trying to make everyone flock to the classes. If only 40 people in an entire server pick a certain class it would make it much easier for them to handle politics, but then the numbers are dry when something big goes down that requires all 40 people's attention. The world is not going to end if people stay Freelancers thanks to the freedom of it, and it will just make those that did pick the classes that much more popular for being able to hand down their bonuses. Like a priest, the idea is that once a group is killed off by a pack of bandits they will most likely spare the priest to not get the huge debuff for killing one. The [JOB] of a priest is to "hang out" with people and provide morale, prayers and buffs just by being there... if this game had a Bard job you could be sure his [job] is to play music during battles to proc buffs on everyone - only there are just priests, and they pray instead.

You point on "go for the healer" makes no sense if you read anything about how healing works (out of battle, and slooow). Going for the healers is going to do jack for your strategy since they can only heal without people trying to interrupt the bandaging - no spells big guy... and your point on Magic the Gathering was completely useless. I really don't even get where you are coming from now.

BALANCE in combat is something everyone shares. Everybody gets the same moves, etc, the only thing is the changing of ROLES that don't need balancing.

Have you ever heard of Paper/Rock/Scissors play?

You are paper / PK classes are scissors / Policiers are rock

There is no need for balancing classes in combat because all classes beyond PK ones fight the same, it's only the policier ones that get extra things to help fight the PKs. It's part of the job, and players can go out in groups and hunt them - but this game DOES NOT offer a 1 v 1 balance whatsoever. It's not that kind of game FFS. It's action based, so how the fuck is that supposed to happen in the first place if one player sucks compared to the next. The only times you can say it's unbalanced is in combat between the PKs and non-policiers... and then it's the same for the policiers and the PKs that flee from them. It's not supposed to be fair - it's supposed to be a working world where people rely on each other for help. I'm not making the world's greatest soloer MMO here, and then again - I am if you are a PK class.

So there really is a bit for everyone, and you need to drop all assumptions at the door. This is not EQ, WoW or anything else - you don't even have a clue how you get quests yet, it's nothing like you expect. The game is a ROLE-PLAYING game to the fullest extent and if you don't RP you will not understand it. It's like you are trying to argue it should resemble other games in the least bit to be inviting - and I am trying to tell you that being this radically different is what it's TRYING to do. You are not supposed to (and cannot) stack quests and go out in the wilds where the objectives are camped by PK classes... the wild is too big, the entry for the PKs too random, and nobody is sent to mapblips - ever. Every human kill you make grants you a new enemy through reputation. It's a living breathing world of depth, tied to an action game, people need to slow down and think about...

...."what they want to do"

The whole goddamn point here. If you like to melee, FFS, it has nothing to do with your class - they all do it if they are allowed to fight. It's about what THINGS you like to do in a game. Steal, protect, hunt, travel, socialize - and the classes put you in line to get more of that. It's like talking to a brick wall here, Jesus.

Has modern MMOs ruined people so much to the point where they can't even conceptualize something like this? Has the idea of a "class" for your character been subjugated to only being that seen in other games, or can it take a turn to how the real world looks at it - a job?

It's about choosing an occupation that gets you closer to your preffered content. Like to steal, be a thief, but then you can't kill like you wanna - make an assassin, PK or murderer. The game wants you to play with more than one character, and this game has no room for one guy being able to do it all without being a Freelancer (non-class) that has circled the world twice doing all there is to do, while avoiding making NPC enemies. The classes let you get to certain content quicker without working your ass off, and allows players to make a host of characters that do all the things they like - and they can play each at any time.

You are NOT gonna be able to do everything with one char, that kills enough in other games to the point that I hope you would understand the need for "roles". Just look at crafting, what happens to economies when players can do it all? Or when players have access to all the content at once (they hit brick walls), or when players can make a custom build (they maximize and pick the FotM)?

Perhaps I need to think more about it all, but I don't think you have grasped any of it since your first post.

Everything is getting compared on how to fight the competition, when the point is to go so far out as to completely avoid trying to catch ANY similarities to other games. This game does absolutely nothing that another game does... besides combat, which was inspired by Eternal Darkness, and with that said, don't assume you know where balance lies. It's an action game where the lame has better group up, because there is nothing to balance towards their favor. I will never bow down to players afraid of a learning curve, I make more simple/traditional games for those types so that people can enjoy a game like this.

I design each game to be drastically different from the last, none of my concepts would override each other in terms of fanbase. They play different, have different settings, make you think in different ways. This is not one of my games where I am trying to please everybody at the same time - because it;s for RPers. Again, RPers - the kind of people that can't play nice with others and put these limitations on themselves if it's in the lore, now they got some mechanical help. You make a game specifically for them and you have no idea what subs you would garner.

Put yourself in their shoes, and you will see every point I made caters to them - and them alone - because that is what this game is marketing to. I went ahead and bolded that part in the OP's first paragraph so the thought carries on past the first words, hopefully.

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Originally posted by biofellis

Originally posted by GTwander

Again it's not about trying to make everyone flock to the classes. If only 40 people in an entire server pick a certain class it would make it much easier for them to handle politics, but then the numbers are dry when something big goes down that requires all 40 people's attention. The world is not going to end if people stay Freelancers thanks to the freedom of it, and it will just make those that did pick the classes that much more popular for being able to hand down their bonuses. Like a priest, the idea is that once a group is killed off by a pack of bandits they will most likely spare the priest to not get the huge debuff for killing one. The [JOB] of a priest is to "hang out" with people and provide morale, prayers and buffs just by being there... if this game had a Bard job you could be sure his [job] is to play music during battles to proc buffs on everyone - only there are just priests, and they pray instead.

Well, being in a group for your shiny smile and positive attitude is a new role-play concept to me- couple that with being 'off limits', and unable to assist battles, and you're playing a character that'll be the envy of any storyteller out there. "So, there was a huge battle going- people fighting for their lives, dying- and I knew I was pretty much invulnerable- but anything could happen, you know? So I went in the middle of my comrades who were begging for help, and I prayed, you know? God- it was awesome!"

You assume so much. This is a social game, therefore I am not balancing 1 v 1 in any way to promote player skills and group size as the clear cause of victory. If you want to solo all day, this game is not for you unless you roll a PK class, but then you will realize how much of the content is there cut off from you. That is because you have to deal with players constantly. If you hate the grouping emphasis, you are gonna hate how you have to talk to players to get quests - since that's a main perk of picking a class - starting and handing out unique quests. Welcome to an RP game big guy.

You point on "go for the healer" makes no sense if you read anything about how healing works (out of battle, and slooow). Going for the healers is going to do jack for your strategy since they can only heal without people trying to interrupt the bandaging - no spells big guy... and your point on Magic the Gathering was completely useless. I really don't even get where you are coming from now.

Battles are not neccesarily wars. I don't care how big the debuff is. If 'that guy' is making people come back into the fray 20% faster- Hell- 10% faster he's going down. Ina battle with 50 people to a side- I guess 5 more won't tip the scales- no, screw the guesswork. Kill that one guy. That's playing the long game. But I guess your game anticipates only rinky-dink tiny/short battles. No prob.

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Now I question how much design intuition you really have. If my game only supports "rinky/tink" short battles, then why would anyone go for the healer who is obviously not an imminent threat? Wasting time on the wrong target leads to being open to getting wounded, that affects how good you are in battle. Being fresh is what matters, and it's a good 5+ minutes before you are fresh after a [treated] wound. Healers are necessary if you want to get rid of extensive downtime, but they are NOT in your typical scheme of being a primary target - and why would I want that? Foolish needs to stick to convention here, get over it.

BALANCE in combat is something everyone shares. Everybody gets the same moves, etc, the only thing is the changing of ROLES that don't need balancing.

Have you ever heard of Paper/Rock/Scissors play?

You are paper / PK classes are scissors / Policiers are rock

I've heard of it. I don't have a particularly high opinion of it in game design. See, the original children's game has versatility in the sense that the players can choose any of the three at any time- this is the 'working' part- the actual game. To be permanently stuck as 'rock' or 'scissors' would be retarded- and guarantee a loss once people figure you out, which is what game designers for whatever reason decide is fine, because the overlapping superiority mechanic seems cool. Well- I won't say it can't work, or won't work- I'll just say that when used in this static manner, there probably should be two other complementary aspects for each character to excell or suck in- like maybe

	rock excel armor (Police)	scissors excel attack (PK)	paper excel ranged (other)
ranged/magic	red	-green-	+blue+
melee	-blue-	+red+	green
armor	+green+	blue	-red-

This still more covers latent aspects more than active, dynamic choices- some aspect of 'clever' rather than some quirk of 'being'- but just illustrating a point. Rock scissors paper is a dynamic game of anticpation and strategy, not a dead use of office supplies.

This is a social game, a group has a chance against a solitary PK class - but a solitary Policier then has a chance against that PKer. You are blowing this out of proportion, and misleading this entire argument. The PK classes are in to promote grouping, and every measure is taken to make sure the PKs stay solo. How many people do you thiink will play the PK classes with all the limitations anyway? The balance is that ther is things people want to do, and things they don't want to - and that promotes using more than one char - the other [emphasis] in this concept... to not let one char do it all, ever.

There is no need for balancing classes in combat because all classes beyond PK ones fight the same, it's only the policier ones that get extra things to help fight the PKs. It's part of the job, and players can go out in groups and hunt them - but this game DOES NOT offer a 1 v 1 balance whatsoever. It's not that kind of game FFS. It's action based, so how the fuck is that supposed to happen in the first place if one player sucks compared to the next. The only times you can say it's unbalanced is in combat between the PKs and non-policiers... and then it's the same for the policiers and the PKs that flee from them. It's not supposed to be fair - it's supposed to be a working world where people rely on each other for help. I'm not making the world's greatest soloer MMO here, and then again - I am if you are a PK class.

Yeah, because in other games- with unrestricted chat channes, btw- when someone says 'I'm getting ganked repeatedly by someone 20 levels higher (or whatever)' people all come running... Hell- I've left guilds because of their lack of support to players- though the general attitude is 'it's part of the game- get used to it.' It's amazing how many people claim 'whatever' is just part of the game- when they could do something about it to make it otherwise... So- you've got a class that you claim should be able to take a small group solo- that shouldn't group- but will, and will be able to take a bigger 'supporting' group in numbers. And if a cop or two is there? Well, guess we'll see.

You have no idea how this works, quit using "what you know from other games". If nobody helps you then you die, and in most cases if you were solo out in the wild you prolly would anyway - that's how it is. The thing you are failing to see is the links available to GET TO SOMEONE THAT CAN. You can talk to your kin chat, they can contact a Policier (who is actively LOOKING for a reason to kill a PKer and rank up), then he will send a /tell. Even if you die, there is a [tracking/investingation] system you have yet to ask about that goes into this scheme. If it's a PK class that caused the murder, no charges can be made, but the offender can be tracked to the ends of the earth once the body is found, then the Policier plays hunter. If it was a group gank, the tracking will lead the to brigands/murderers, and charges can be made exiling them from the kingdom the crime was made in, as well as putting a price on their head - making them a target to all that deal lawfully. There is also a system an inspection system to see what hte murder weapon was, but at this point that's irrelevant.

Really, it's clear that if not fed all the details - you have no clue what the hell you are talking about. There aren't even levels in this game, I said it's based on a UO-style skill ladder that raises speed and power slightly. There is also an entire direction-based blocking/parry system in too, so when PvP occurs there is no telling how long it could really last. The hope is that even arrows can be deflected, but that's something that's handled entirely differnet.

So there really is a bit for everyone, and you need to drop all assumptions at the door. This is not EQ, WoW or anything else - you don't even have a clue how you get quests yet, it's nothing like you expect. The game is a ROLE-PLAYING game to the fullest extent and if you don't RP you will not understand it. It's like you are trying to argue it should resemble other games in the least bit to be inviting - and I am trying to tell you that being this radically different is what it's TRYING to do. You are not supposed to (and cannot) stack quests and go out in the wilds where the objectives are camped by PK classes... the wild is too big, the entry for the PKs too random, and nobody is sent to mapblips - ever. Every human kill you make grants you a new enemy through reputation. It's a living breathing world of depth, tied to an action game, people need to slow down and think about...

You're assuming my comments have any affinity to WOW. I mentioned other games as proven dynamics and player attitudes- not in mimicry or guideline for construction. Anything I don't know, you haven't told me. That's hardly my fault. If you heard me arguing it needs to resemble 'whatever', well- I say go re-read. People don't need GPS or map- points- roads and terrain will do that. You don't neccesarily need bait to trap an animal, just know where they travel- who cares why?

Glad you understand that at least.

...."what they want to do"

The whole goddamn point here. If you like to melee, FFS, it has nothing to do with your class - they all do it if they are allowed to fight. It's about what THINGS you like to do in a game. Steal, protect, hunt, travel, socialize - and the classes put you in line to get more of that. It's like talking to a brick wall here, Jesus.

Maybe I know how you feel.

Maybe the longevity of any class has something to do with it's versatility- I'm not saying everyone should do everything- just saying you defend to the death not acknowledging the occasional 'change up'.

The changeup is in how many character slots you have to experiement with, no single char is doing it all, and because of the errant reputation shifts of certain classes - and what enemies you can make with them - it doesn't suit the questing method where you have to work hard (or take a job as a role) to find more rewarding content.

Has modern MMOs ruined people so much to the point where they can't even conceptualize something like this? Has the idea of a "class" for your character been subjugated to only being that seen in other games, or can it take a turn to how the real world looks at it - a job?

It's about choosing an occupation that gets you closer to your preffered content. Like to steal, be a thief, but then you can't kill like you wanna - make an assassin, PK or murderer. The game wants you to play with more than one character, and this game has no room for one guy being able to do it all without being a Freelancer (non-class) that has circled the world twice doing all there is to do, while avoiding making NPC enemies. The classes let you get to certain content quicker without working your ass off, and allows players to make a host of characters that do all the things they like - and they can play each at any time.

You are NOT gonna be able to do everything with one char, that kills enough in other games to the point that I hope you would understand the need for "roles". Just look at crafting, what happens to economies when players can do it all? Or when players have access to all the content at once (they hit brick walls), or when players can make a custom build (they maximize and pick the FotM)?

Perhaps I need to think more about it all, but I don't think you have grasped any of it since your first post.

Well, being that your last 4 paragraphs are a straw man argument suggesting I want everyone to do everything, worry less about what I grasp- you're reading way beyond what I've actually said. I find it amazing that I can compliment someone, their idea, wish them well, and have them just about make stuff up rather than listen to my admittedly imperfect, but honestly intetioned, time consuming advice. Try that on for a one-size-fits-all, look in the mirror before you throw the little stone scenario.

You problem has consistantly been about "limitations" that can easily be bypassed through the use of mulitple chars to experience it all, but that doesn't seem to work for you. Maybe you fail to absorb any of the things RPers even DO and how they deal with things. Global channels offend them, breaking character does too, and with the systems in play it will be damn near impossible to do so. Without having taken a look at these kinds of people as long as I have, as well as discussing time and time again "what it is they look for", you will never be able to assume anything about any of this. Everything you get at is about how to find a median between a bunch of playstyles when I am telling you that this game favors one.

Everything is getting compared on how to fight the competition, when the point is to go so far out as to completely avoid trying to catch ANY similarities to other games. This game does absolutely nothing that another game does... besides combat, which was inspired by Eternal Darkness, and with that said, don't assume you know where balance lies. It's an action game where the lame has better group up, because there is nothing to balance towards their favor. I will never bow down to players afraid of a learning curve, I make more simple/traditional games for those types so that people can enjoy a game like this.

More power to you. I hope you have it all worked out, because even if you don't like scrutiny, I still hope you do well and your game kicks ass. You don't know my background, but have assumed quite a bit- and it makes you happy to do so, so I'm not going to try to correct you- just assume my 'perspective' is a cranky guy who wants your game to be another WOW knock-off, not a potentially smart guy who might have accidentally (or otherwise) wondered if you've considered 'such and such' because you're doing a bunch of shit you've got little guideline for, and hoping for success is not the same as planning against failure.

I got news for you, this is one of over a dozen MMO concepts I have done. It's not gonna hurt me in one bit if people simply don't get it, because I already realise that this game is beyond the scope of most players (and apparently designers as well). It's not likely to ever get made, but then someday will jump on the "RPers are looking for a game thing" and not even come close to what they would have wanted... but being the only choice out there - it's all they got. You fail to see the market there is for this shit homeboy.

I design each game to be drastically different from the last, none of my concepts would override each other in terms of fanbase. They play different, have different settings, make you think in different ways. This is not one of my games where I am trying to please everybody at the same time - because it;s for RPers. Again, RPers - the kind of people that can't play nice with others and put these limitations on themselves if it's in the lore, now they got some mechanical help. You make a game specifically for them and you have no idea what subs you would garner.

You say RPer like that makes a person completely good with the idea that one player class should own another- that no matter what they do, they are owned by that class- that that class has it out for them, and running is the only option. RPers don't want to be heroes. RPer are ok with learned helplessness. RPers know how to hide behind the police. I know some RPers. Quite a few actually. The best of them find a way or die trying everytime. You're not designing for the RPers I know, obviously- and unless there's more you haven't told me- (which I'm sure there is) You're designing for cowards.

Designing for cowards? What does that even mean?

Of course there is more I'm not telling you, I don't need to spill all the guts, but if you can't come to logical assumptions on your own that's YOUR fault. You yourself said the limitations would make people stray from classes, so how many of these dreaded PKers are there gonna be? Or are you just on some doomsday kick today? The game is made for groups, there I said it. If you don't like that your gonna hate this game. Fear/safety is the only way to get people grouping if the content is not so hard that they have to. That is the difference of a game that "makes you group" like old-school FFXI, and one that "wants you to" like an FFA zone in AoC or in 0.0 sec in EVE. Learn some psychology, it helps.

Put yourself in their shoes, and you will see every point I made caters to them - and them alone - because that is what this game is marketing to. I went ahead and bolded that part in the OP's first paragraph so the thought carries on past the first words, hopefully.

I did. But you don't think so, so I couldn't well say anything which conflict with what you think RPers want. Bold what you want, but it's not accurate- maybe you should change the title to 'Classes based on "who should run"', and the bold to 'This game is made for 'gankers, police, and cowards''- I mean that's pretty much the breakdown, right? Maybe 'Shepherds, Sheep, and Wolves' is less offensive?

Hardly fair either way- I know, but stressing wordd doesn't change your play dynamic for better or worse. I'm sure you're making a good game- A great game. Dismiss my misguided input. It's perfect 'as is' and I clearly don't know a thing. I obviously have zero RP experience, game design experience, MMO play experience- I should excuse myself from commenting.

If you want further feedback, you can ask. But it seems I'm way over quota already.

Again- good luck to you- I really think you're onto something.

So far, your entire argument has been 100% assumption that may be my fault for not disclosing more, but it shows that you were only looking for ways attack the structure of the game's "limitations" that are put in place to shift actions elsewhere - and this based on what you assume a game should do. This is more of an interactive experience than a typical MMO, a living breathing world where social aspects circle in on each other and you are basically "forced" to deal with people. If having to deal with people online is something strange to you, then I recommend you start making game for the jilted isolationists that have been ruined by modern MMOs. This game is for veterans looking for a deeper experience, I dare you to deny that much is latent.

No Global chat means people work locally.

Things in the wild that can fuck you up means you should group if you wanna go deep out there.

PK classes are way beyond your understanding to even speak on anymore, it's like you can't get the concept that they provide something to do for Knights, Paladins and Inquisitors. As well as being gimped to high hell in terms of grouping for extra advantage.

I don't need any further feedback from you, because your design philosophy is so one-way. I bet you make games for yourself... I make them for others. If anything, I would request input from an avid RPer that can tell me how these limitations would affect their gameplay, and if anything, maybe they need to be more choosable - but the idea remains that Role-Playing aspects affect characters, down to every last "ism" and belief structure. God forbid a role-playing game make you enter the character you play - wow, what heresy.

.

Well what do you expect, no matter what I try to tell you, you're ending up with the wrong messages.

1. I dunno how you keep getting the idea that people are going to need to protect healers, there was nothing there stating there was combat heals; in fact it's been stated healing is done after combat many times, and takes a lot of downtime if not skilled - that is why healers are good to have, but they are not a primary target - and it would be a flub tactic to waste your time on one as the melee guys have your number.

2. You bring up Magic the Gathering for some reason. I'll tell you like I tell Plausuma!!! - " I dare you to make less sense"

3. You assume because you are not going to be able to handle things 1v1 that the "game is for cowards, so you better run", when I see it as a PvP element that brings the idea of futility over from PvE content that does the same. Some things are just unbeatable by yourself on both ends.

4. I state half a dozen times it's skill-based and you keep bringing up levels!

Basically you are coming at this with a textbook point-of-view every inch of the way and it's not getting this anywhere. Look at this game as a social sandbox that will eat hours of time, and not an easy to jump in casual MMO of any kind. Whenever you see the "limitations" I have put down, you fail to see what it really does to the game itself.

Like the chat thing; you are only going to get lines to people that you have an in-game stake with. That's your kin (NPC family ties), class and guild - those are all you need without giving the kind of convenient global chat that is clogged to high hell and breaks any idea of maintaining an RP setting and keeping it enforced. If you played MMOs you would know how global chat IS. If you read forums you would see the RP community's reaction to all that. Really, the problem is that you haven't done your research to even start thinking in terms of pleasing this demographic - and instead keep looking at it as something that needs to be more "balanced" when you can't even comprehend how any of the "limitations" imposed do just that.

~and still I think you can't get over the PK class stomperdom, and I don't expect you to think otherwise anytime soon since this is exactly what I expect from someone who has screamed nerf in the classic example of the "OP FotM class"... and really - who is going to play these religiously with THAT much limitation on content. It becomes a [side-outlet] that you can't really do allllll the time, so you play other chars... like I keep telling you about any class. Every limitation I placed is to keep classes from being FotM due to NOT being able to do everything you want - and that makes you play more chars, and see more content overall - from various [viewpoints]. Hello? Story? Differing content much?

Is there not enough games where choosing a different class means jack when it comes to playing a completely different experience? Do they all not race through the same content to the end, only to sit there and have no reason to try something else?

Maybe that will sink in, but I really don't care anymore.

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Originally posted by biofellis

Originally posted by GTwander

Well what do you expect, no matter what I try to tell you, you're ending up with the wrong messages.

1. I dunno how you keep getting the idea that people are going to need to protect healers, there was nothing there stating there was combat heals; in fact it's been stated healing is done after combat many times, and takes a lot of downtime if not skilled - that is why healers are good to have, but they are not a primary target - and it would be a flub tactic to waste your time on one as the melee guys have your number.

For free:

People can only do damage, while they have >0 hits. If 20 people have one hit, they can do full damage. The person that keeps people at >0 is a target to anyone that has brains. I don't know how you plan to territorialize 'after combat', but out of combat- away from some battle- if some guy moves my enemies from zero to 1, it's a problem. If you can't get this, it's on you. If I don't know something about your system that clarifies it, it's still on you.

Yes you can raise the dead after a battle, but you can also [deathblow] someone on the ground to send them to the graveyard without hope of a rez. People bleed out in 10 minutes of being dropped to the ground in the case where they were not killed, just robbed, but from there you can start hacking heads and that priest - who too can be attacked, taken down, robbed - but not killed if you don't want a debuff - will find there is nothing he can do after. There is an emphasis on non-bladed weapons to knock someone out instead of killing them, so anyone with a club or shield can bash the priest to the ground while they go around sticking swords in anyone that would have survived. You obviously still are seeing healer classes as a kind of instant thing, and even with the idea of "being fresh" and wounded effecting how good you fight - you can't seem to figure on your own that a person brought back with a "rez" from being incapacitated will have immense downtime till he can be in the shape to fight like anyone else. Really, read more - assume less.

2. You bring up Magic the Gathering for some reason. I'll tell you like I tell Plausuma!!! - " I dare you to make less sense"

Why you can't follow a line of thought is not for me to explain, but because you arrogantly 'dared'.

I show an analogy which (because you must not be familiar) is like rock/scissor/paper, but with 5 elements, and describe how one getting a significant advantage complicates and makes the gameplay dynamic go south. Then I continue to talk about balance and class design, as if you could follow- which I guess you couldn't. Sorry- I think I lost the dare. You probably still don't get it- so to you, I guess I won.

I didn't realize there is a dare going on, and I didn't get it simply because the 5-point R/P/S tradeoff of magic the gathering has NOTHING to do with this... maybe if I had a ring of damage types that acted this way, but not. There is only the Policier > PK > regular tradeoff, and trying to understand that better through such an anachronism shows you prolly are NEVER going to understand what is going on with this relationship between the 2, and other players.

3. You assume because you are not going to be able to handle things 1v1 that the "game is for cowards, so you better run", when I see it as a PvP element that brings the idea of futility over from PvE content that does the same. Some things are just unbeatable by yourself on both ends.

Never said such a thing about 1v1. You're making shit up. Further, you're the one who said in your own post everyone except police should run becasue the Pk classes were powerful enough to kill several players. Just because you don't understand that a day in the life of everyone but police is to duck and run from gankers, defines what you designed them to be. Some things are unbeatable. Like people who don't understand the difference between a game where you will lose most every battle unless rescued, and a game where people can be proud of themselves for standing up and trying.

I said there is definitely ways for a PK class to wipe up a solitary class "and a small group if caught completely unaware". You are the one jumping to conclusions, and that you are very good at. It's the same in any game where if the action is quick enough, the 30 seconds you all looked away from the screen is all it takes to doom you... of course you would jump to the conclusion that this is a game where you will lose most every battle unless rescued... and to that, I now assume you lack the forethought to think about any of this.

If you lose start losing 1v1, is escape not an option?

If the fight looks like you will lose just by looking at the enemy (this is in PvP AND PvE), wouldn't you run/avoid it?

Really, you are screaming "unfair" about things you have zero concept on beyond relating it to how a lvl 60 hunts noobs in goldshire. You are not even ready to comprehend some of the things going on here, so you really should just walk away. I've said it all on how the PKs actually "have it hard" and will not be able to group to any use, nor can they return to a spot easily and continue the rampage. There is so much in place to make it happen every once in a while, and make Policiers run out for the credit on the kill.

You have no clue, whatsoever, on this subject beyond how other games "made you feel" about having an unfair fight with another player... from games that WANT to balance classes down to 1v1. How are PKers going to feel about the unfair advantage of the Policiers chasing them? Or do you only care about the nobodies that have nothing to do with this relationship?

You sir, simply cannot see a game where unfair advantage is meant to make a player gauge his reactions.

4. I state half a dozen times it's skill-based and you keep bringing up levels!

No- again, bother doing a search on this thread for the word 'level', you will only see me talking about past experiences in other games, not trying to shoehorn yours into that mold. This is where 'understanding contextual clues' shines.

~and there it is again, you are coming to this debate with things that DON'T MEAN SHIT. Your "past experience in games" is fucking your entire perception on games up, quit designing for fairness and convenience and you will see how it drives people to be more social... if you have qualms in FORCING people into it - then don't try and make a social game. It usually means you HAVE TO rope people into it, otherwise you are hosting a soloer's game that thinks it can play nice - but as long as you don't HAVE TO, people won't.

Check my responses about how [efficiency] in soloing affects the grouping mentality of games in all the threads about "why people don't group anymore", and maybe you will see how ripping that expected efficiency/convenience from a game FORCES people to make friends. IF you don't like the idea of that, then you will probably fail at any attempt to get people to socialize - until you MAKE THEM.

Basically you are coming at this with a textbook point-of-view every inch of the way and it's not getting this anywhere. Look at this game as a social sandbox that will eat hours of time, and not an easy to jump in casual MMO of any kind. Whenever you see the "limitations" I have put down, you fail to see what it really does to the game itself.

Says you, because again, you are so in my head- you're so good like that. I see what you have shown me. You have failed to understand anything that you didn't like a part of.

Nope, you fail to understand "what this game wants".

I design for idiots and ADD kids in other concepts, this is a thinkers game, and NOT FAIR to anyone 1v1 in PvP - ever. It's about as fair as Street Fighter 2 is going to be - and that depends on how good your opponent is. If you have that much of an issue with my philosophy of PKers and Policiers, then come up with a reason that relates to it beyond your bad impressions from games that don't do ANYTHING like this whatsoever. The lvl 60 in goldshire is NOT = to a PK class causing havoc, in that situation NOBODY BUT ANOTHER 60 can help,  in this case - anyone that wants to can... and maybe your issue is that people "never want to" - yet with all the ranking systems in play - Policiers are LOOKING for one to hunt.

Like the chat thing; you are only going to get lines to people that you have an in-game stake with. That's your kin (NPC family ties), class and guild - those are all you need without giving the kind of convenient global chat that is clogged to high hell and breaks any idea of maintaining an RP setting and keeping it enforced. If you played MMOs you would know how global chat IS. If you read forums you would see the RP community's reaction to all that. Really, the problem is that you haven't done your research to even start thinking in terms of pleasing this demographic - and instead keep looking at it as something that needs to be more "balanced" when you can't even comprehend how any of the "limitations" imposed do just that.

I have not said one word against your local chat idea. It's actually good. That you think it will somehow balance classes in any way is off, and that you think the human element will suddenly make heroes out of people who are doing their own quests is deluded. Those are my points. You see other things I never said, and assume other crazy shit you have no business even trying. "If you played MMOs"... If YOU played MMOs you'd know RPers- your champion breed- is the smalles servertype, and even smaller for PVP. But of THOSE guys, you'll get a solid group of players who'll listen to local chat, and drop everything to help strangers in need.

Do you even realize the logistics of a cop on his beat vs the area he has to cover? How they use the radio to rush to assist? How that can't work for players with only local chat, and the ganked will be dead when he shows up anyway?

You are the one assuming I am trying to make people feel as heroic as I do cowardly. All I am doing is playing the strings in making people WANT to do things. Nobody is going to want to group if it's less efficient that doing it solo, and I can't FORCE them to, so all I can do is [entice] them to thanks to the inherant risks of being caught alone out there. If nobody WANTS to help anyone, that is why I add so much "mechanical need" to do so, think a Policier is going to stop what he is doing if there is no rewards for hunting the PKer? You can't see any of that lol... and yes, you did say the lack of a global channel is an issue back there, read up smart guy.

Your point of the RPers makes sense, but it makes more sense that the entirety of the RP playerbase is NOT playing the same game at any time currently. How many are playing AoC, DDO, Etc, Etc respectively?

Now how many would flock to a game dedicated to them - a lot - and from all those games where they are broken up into tinier communities. It's really about marketing to them, from square one. You are fail for not seeing any of that.

To the BOLDED part, you have no listened to shit - have you?

The beat is large for a cop, but ALL HE NEEDS TO DO IS FIND THE BODY TO TRACK THE PKer. L2REED. That means if you died, you can bring one out to your body, then he can track your killer and enforce punishment.

The "radio" is your kin/class/guild lines - any of which can have someone link you to a policier - or in any case, join you themselves if it's simply a PK class causing trouble. You seem to forget the "limitations" I made are to enforce usage of your important lines. Your kin will help simply because every death on their kin affects the NPC clan negatively, as well as starting a mission to "enact revenge" for killing your kin is a quest once you find the body, and comes with it's own rewards.

Only local chat? You haven't read shit. Go away, It's becoming insulting at how much I need to reiterate all this shit half a dozen times.

~and still I think you can't get over the PK class stomperdom, and I don't expect you to think otherwise anytime soon since this is exactly what I expect from someone who has screamed nerf in the classic example of the "OP FotM class"... and really - who is going to play these religiously with THAT much limitation on content. It becomes a [side-outlet] that you can't really do allllll the time, so you play other chars... like I keep telling you about any class. Every limitation I placed is to keep classes from being FotM due to NOT being able to do everything you want - and that makes you play more chars, and see more content overall - from various [viewpoints]. Hello? Story? Differing content much?

Nerf? wtf you talking about? I never said 'Don't do' what you're doing. I just expressed concern because some of it didn't make sense to me- and I don't pretend to know all you know, though you keep swearing you know what I do and don't. I didn't say 'better make those bone eaters weaker dude'. I just suggested 'That sounds very powerful. It doesn't sound fun.'  Do you get tired at all of making up nonsense? What makes you think paying customers want to be made to do anything?

I could quote you, but that's tacky. You have generally insulted my stance on how PKers and Policiers work and tried to generalize it as a relation to how OP a single class can be in either a level gap, or unintended advantage over another class when the idea is to make 1v1 as fair as possible. This game has no levels, and no emphasis on 1v1 play, so everything you keep bringing up is useless. You keep treating the combat outcome like a battle of attrition when I keep telling you that this is an ACTION GAME... should I nerf arrows because there is the point that you "might never see it coming" - and that's not fair?

Fuck no.

Is there not enough games where choosing a different class means jack when it comes to playing a completely different experience? Do they all not race through the same content to the end, only to sit there and have no reason to try something else?

Maybe that will sink in, but I really don't care anymore.

That's obvious. If you cared, you'd hear a single thing I said 'like I said it'and not dismiss it out of hand or twist it into your own flavor of wrong- and not because I'm in any respect worth listening to- you've already made it clear your opinion there- no- because as a game designer (which you claim to be) opinions and persectives and feedback from 'potential customers' and even 'lost customers' (and even clueless pinheads like me) can be valuable- sometimes more valuable than clinging tight to your original ideas like it's a comfort blanket and crying when youthink someone's trying to take it.

Definantly more valuable than making up excuses to discredit the messenger so you can ignore the message. Hell, a good game designer can take 'bad' feedback, and pull good intel out of it by trying to 'Role play' the customer. Oh- wait- you don't do role-play, do you? Oh well.

Do what you will, just be happy you don't need my useless opinion.

I heard everything you said, the issue is that this game is not like anything you have played before - so you need to come at me with a real quantum situation on how there is an issue. All you do is say "it doesn't work in other games" when you can't get that, combat, questing, pacing (everything) is nothing like you have experienced. I feel like I am arguing with you about a completely different game because you don't have a clue what this one is about - at all - and please if you don't mind, just walk away because it's insulting every inch of the way to deal with someone as clueless about any facet handed to you like it's from a different planet. If the ideas are that alien to you, you're simply not ready to converse about things you don't have experience with yet, because all you can do is make comparisons to things that HAVE NO COMPARISON.

Drawing at straws every inch of the way, and that's disappointing on my behalf to see a designer that can't think outside what he knows, or has experienced.