Originally posted by colddog

 

I agree with you, but I also believe that it's extremely hard to pull off a solid "game" without having roles defined. For instance, if everyone choses what they are through a heavy skill system, how can you balance anything ever? 

You put limitations on the system. Like what weapon you're using determines what kind of skills you can obtain (although you could mix skills from other weapon types but they wouldn't be as strong).

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by colddog

 

I agree with you, but I also believe that it's extremely hard to pull off a solid "game" without having roles defined. For instance, if everyone choses what they are through a heavy skill system, how can you balance anything ever? 

You put limitations on the system. Like what weapon you're using determines what kind of skills you can obtain (although you could mix skills from other weapon types but they wouldn't be as strong).

If it were only that simple.

Edit: What you are saying reminds me of FF7 with limitations.

Originally posted by colddog

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by colddog

 

I agree with you, but I also believe that it's extremely hard to pull off a solid "game" without having roles defined. For instance, if everyone choses what they are through a heavy skill system, how can you balance anything ever? 

You put limitations on the system. Like what weapon you're using determines what kind of skills you can obtain (although you could mix skills from other weapon types but they wouldn't be as strong).

 

If it were only that simple.

 

Edit: What you are saying reminds me of FF7 with limitations.

Hmm, well that is what FFXIV is aiming to do.. so maybe it is that simple? Or maybe I'm missing something.

The perfect MMO would ditch the class system entirely in my opinion. It's outdated, and in my experience, far less fun than picking cool abilities I like to make my own character. I want to make my own character, not use the abilities someone else wants me to have in their class they designed.

Yes, skill systems can be hard to balance on one level, but it's not impossible (well, in regards as much as 'complete' balance is ever possible, since elements of it can be subjective) and the returns are worth it. On another level, assuming you have a smart series of rules and systems, balancing skills by and of themselves is less complex than making a well-oiled one-trick-pony-machine-thing of a class. Granted, when you can mix and match, people can create "odd builds". But any good skill system should have a "respec" feature that lets people make adjustments and fine-tune their fun little creation.

As for balance in general: It helps if you don't use unnecessarily arcane formulas and have a simple but robust system that relies on more straightforward calculations. Just because a computer can process ridiculous formulas in half a nanosecond doesn't mean you have to use them.

 A perfect mmo wouldn't have classes. It would have a tree of maybe 200-300 different skills to accomplish everything (combat to crafting)

Originally posted by PrinnySquad

The perfect MMO would ditch the class system entirely in my opinion. It's outdated, and in my experience, far less fun than picking cool abilities I like to make my own character. I want to make my own character, not use the abilities someone else wants me to have in their class they designed.

Yes, skill systems can be hard to balance on one level, but it's not impossible (well, in regards as much as 'complete' balance is ever possible, since elements of it can be subjective) and the returns are worth it. On another level, assuming you have a smart series of rules and systems, balancing skills by and of themselves is less complex than making a well-oiled one-trick-pony-machine-thing of a class. Granted, when you can mix and match, people can create "odd builds". But any good skill system should have a "respec" feature that lets people make adjustments and fine-tune their fun little creation.

As for balance in general: It helps if you don't use unnecessarily arcane formulas and have a simple but robust system that relies on more straightforward calculations. Just because a computer can process ridiculous formulas in half a nanosecond doesn't mean you have to use them.

Both ways have their place."If" they let you be full creative then yes picking abilities is great  but most times these games are so afraid of unbalance system that you can't be creative.You find me a game where i can make a heavy armor magic tank that summon pet and do some dps or High damage fire melee mage that can transform into a demon and i will play that game.

The weridest thing is that that most creative system in mmo is not  in a classless game the most creative system is found in champion online or CoX.You can create whatever you want in those games.

You get some truly well design classes in some mmo then you get a game like darkfall where what you can create is bland.I will take a HoX or Death Knight any day those class are masterpieces.A Classless system is only good if the let create masterpieces,yeah i would rather make my own but rather settle for a great class in set system.

 Well... for me the perfect MMO (class wise) should have the options of DDO the skill and job progression of Ragnarok Online and a workable learning curve.

I really liked the idea of a "Novice" that Ragnarok Online had. You don't just pop into a world born as an accountant, do you?

Classes I liked the mechanics of, or would like to see new mechanics for?

Melee -> Broadswords man / Fencing (never seen the fencing style put into a game)

Ranged -> scout/minstrel 

Magic -> Battle mage/ mage (with the options reminiscent to Warhammer's winds of magic)

Healer -> Warrior priest / Druid (druid should be fragile but have mannnny buffs and travel magics)

These are just a few off the top of my head. :)

In my opinion, the pre-cu SWG rpg had one of the best concepts for character design. The 30 different professions available could be combined to create a multitude of different character titles that allowed impressive depth for players. I believe that character classes cause too many clones personally, and not enough diversity in a world that is supposed to be diverse. I recently read in another forum, "I want a world" to play in, I couldn't agree more. A world needs everything, including many non-combat oriented characters that newer mmorpgs seem to lack (another discussion alltogether).