So...the general argument behind the past few threads seems to be this: (Please, correct me if I'm mistaken)

1) WoW became a massive success, with subscription numbers exceeding those of any MMO that came before it.

2) The subscription rates of new MMO's more closely resemble those of the older games in the genre, rather than WoW.

3) Because these new MMO's have not exceeded the popularity of WoW, but instead remained at the average pre-WoW level, they are miserable failures, and WoW has killed MMO gaming forever.

Is that about right?

Originally posted by pojung

@ Astralglide

How many successful MMO's came before wow? 2-3? Lets see:

Everquest, Ultima Online, (Did vanguard come before wow?), DAOC (could that be called successful?) What others am I missing? How are you defining "successful"? I would agree that WoW has raised the bar as to what "successful" means in this market, but you can't blame companies for selling lots of their products. Has apple destroyed the portable music and video market?

Look at this rich lush soil that hasn't been tapped into yet! Along comes a weed plant, and strangles any other seed from growth. Look at this untapped oasis in what is otherwise a desert that is computer gaming. Along comes a whale and prevents smaller fish from calling it home as well. The weed dies from monopoly, the whale dies from the same. These are loose metaphors.

I had a coworker who spent some time as a woodworking plant operator. He was so efficient at his job he was promoted within 6mo to a supervisor position. 3mo later he was the night manager. 1yr later he was the general manager for a plant that employed 300 people. His ideas and his oversight were unmatched in his sector of work. 18mo after taking over as the general plant manager him and his 300 man team were all out of jobs. They became too efficient for their market.

'Success', by anyone's terms, can very well be the *very* reason for the end of an era.

So, WoW is so good that it's bad? Its so great that other companies can't compete and everybody loses? Should companies be required to make games that suck so that "everybody can keep their jobs"? I don't get the logic. 

@ Astralglide

So, WoW is so good that it's bad? Its so great that other companies can't compete and everybody loses?

From a numbers standpoint (subscriptions), I'd subjectively say this is true. It's simple monopoly theory. Lack of competition results in a decreasing product quality (everybody loses). Competition is good.

Should companies be required to make games that suck so that "everybody can keep their jobs"? I don't get the logic.

Nowhere is it suggested that companies should make games that suck. Companies should make the best products that they can. But if I engineer a way to tap into oil reserves at 1/10 the cost of every other competitor, I'm going to own the market. This is only right and natural.

The reference being made here is wether or not WoW has killed the MMO genre because of its success. Wether or not the MMO genre is dead, I'm offering that success is very much a solid enough reason; nothing more.

Originally posted by Anubisan

Originally posted by Daffid011
.....

Seriously have people lost that much perspective that they think players clogging a chat channel with inane chat are worse than people who pick your corpse clean of items, train your group to death and invoke the play-nice-policy to have your guild removed from the zone so they can get a boss encounter your guild already cleared to. 

I do a giant /facepalm everytime an old school player cries about todays communities in comparison to the old days.

 

Well said. I completely agree with everything you wrote...

It is clear to me that some of the old school MMOers have lost touch with the reality of the way things really were back in the 'good old days'.

When you look at the communities as a whole. The old school Communities were way better then the new game communities.  Sure the old school ones had their problems and sure every group of people will always have assholes but overall the communities in games like EQ1, DoAC and UO were way better, friendly places to be then the newer games.   To say other wise is just wrong.
 

EQ1 the community for the most part was great, how many times did people stop and help others finish epics? Corpse runs? answer questions without calling the other player a noob or a moron.   

I can name 10 examples of the community helping me right now that happened in EQ1 to myself by non guildies or RL friends.  By people I had never met before.   I cannot name one in WoW due to never wanting to deal with the "barren chat" morons.  So in WoW I keep to my guild and guild allies.

Originally posted by pojung

@ Astralglide

So, WoW is so good that it's bad? Its so great that other companies can't compete and everybody loses?

From a numbers standpoint (subscriptions), I'd subjectively say this is true. It's simple monopoly theory. Lack of competition results in a decreasing product quality (everybody loses). Competition is good.

Should companies be required to make games that suck so that "everybody can keep their jobs"? I don't get the logic.

Nowhere is it suggested that companies should make games that suck. Companies should make the best products that they can. But if I engineer a way to tap into oil reserves at 1/10 the cost of every other competitor, I'm going to own the market. This is only right and natural.

The reference being made here is wether or not WoW has killed the MMO genre because of its success. Wether or not the MMO genre is dead, I'm offering that success is very much a solid enough reason; nothing more.

So, if only large companies can make MMO's tat compete with WoW, why is WAR (EA Games) doing so poorly? Why hasn't SOE had a game that has even half of the subscribers to WoW?  Why is LOTRO (which is a beautiful and very fun game until the end-game grind) doing so poorly in subs? Is it because Blizzard is so successful, or is it because the other companies aren't putting out as high a quality game as WoW? If large companies are to blame, then maybe we, as a community, need to demand higher quality games that can compete with WoW. 

[Side Note- I played the shit out of LOTRO until the end-game grind. The biggest turn off for me besides that was the closed UI, I am a huge fan of open UI. I also played the shit out of WAR for the first two weeks that it came out before I accepted that they hadn't bothered to polish the game that they designed and released a shoddy product which is unacceptable for a company EA's size]

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by Anubisan

Originally posted by Daffid011
.....

Seriously have people lost that much perspective that they think players clogging a chat channel with inane chat are worse than people who pick your corpse clean of items, train your group to death and invoke the play-nice-policy to have your guild removed from the zone so they can get a boss encounter your guild already cleared to. 

I do a giant /facepalm everytime an old school player cries about todays communities in comparison to the old days.

 

Well said. I completely agree with everything you wrote...

It is clear to me that some of the old school MMOers have lost touch with the reality of the way things really were back in the 'good old days'.

When you look at the communities as a whole. The old school Communities were way better then the new game communities.  Sure the old school ones had their problems and sure every group of people will always have assholes but overall the communities in games like EQ1, DoAC and UO were way better, friendly places to be then the newer games.   To say other wise is just wrong.
 

EQ1 the community for the most part was great, how many times did people stop and help others finish epics? Corpse runs? answer questions without calling the other player a noob or a moron.   

I can name 10 examples of the community helping me right now that happened in EQ1 to myself by non guildies or RL friends.  By people I had never met before.   I cannot name one in WoW due to never wanting to deal with the "barren chat" morons.  So in WoW I keep to my guild and guild allies.

Just a touch of hyperbole there?

First you have to ignore all the bad that happened everyday in the old games to see the good.  Not such a great start to an argument trying to make the old communities look better. 

Then you can name some examples of good things, but nothing nice ever happened in wow?  Evere?  Please.

Let me turn the tables on you.

I have had just one instance of a asshole trying to grief me in wow and it was dealt with in a few minutes by a GM.  Poof, gone, ban vacation. 

Now on the flip side I cannot count how many times I had other players in old mmos try to grief me or anyone nearby for no reason at all.  It was often a daily event.  There was always some small scale event drama going on in the game.  Sometimes it ruined your night, sometimes it didn't.  Then one step above that was the epic server wide drama.  Some guild or group was always screwing over someone else.   The drama on EQVault made this site look like kindergardne playtime in comparison. 

Just look at the design of everquest.  The only way to advance in that game is at the expense of other players.  If you get access to a limited spawn boss, that means everyone else has to wait 7 days.  If you were camping a spot in a dungeon that meant no one else could play there.  That is just how it was and any game with that design philosophy is going to generate friction. 

There is no two ways about it, the old school communities were far worse in terms of anti-social behavior.  There just isn't even a comparison.

However, I preferred the mechanics of old school games that fostered more community building.  Less instant travel, no auction houses and to a small degree some of the game mechanics that encouraged player interaction.  Like non-instanced dungeons and player housing.  That all comes at a price though.  The more you require players to interact the more you expose players to griefers and just players who just enjoy spreading misery.  

New games are less social in comparison.  There isn't the need for a server wide community in modern games like there was in older games.  Most activities are structured around the guild level with small extensions to your circle of friends. 

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by Anubisan

Originally posted by Daffid011
.....

Seriously have people lost that much perspective that they think players clogging a chat channel with inane chat are worse than people who pick your corpse clean of items, train your group to death and invoke the play-nice-policy to have your guild removed from the zone so they can get a boss encounter your guild already cleared to. 

I do a giant /facepalm everytime an old school player cries about todays communities in comparison to the old days.

 

Well said. I completely agree with everything you wrote...

It is clear to me that some of the old school MMOers have lost touch with the reality of the way things really were back in the 'good old days'.

When you look at the communities as a whole. The old school Communities were way better then the new game communities.  Sure the old school ones had their problems and sure every group of people will always have assholes but overall the communities in games like EQ1, DoAC and UO were way better, friendly places to be then the newer games.   To say other wise is just wrong.
 

EQ1 the community for the most part was great, how many times did people stop and help others finish epics? Corpse runs? answer questions without calling the other player a noob or a moron.   

I can name 10 examples of the community helping me right now that happened in EQ1 to myself by non guildies or RL friends.  By people I had never met before.   I cannot name one in WoW due to never wanting to deal with the "barren chat" morons.  So in WoW I keep to my guild and guild allies.

Just a touch of hyperbole there?

First you have to ignore all the bad that happened everyday in the old games to see the good.  Not such a great start to an argument trying to make the old communities look better. 

Then you can name some examples of good things, but nothing nice ever happened in wow?  Evere?  Please.

 

Let me turn the tables on you.

I have had just one instance of a asshole trying to grief me in wow and it was dealt with in a few minutes by a GM.  Poof, gone, ban vacation. 

Now on the flip side I cannot count how many times I had other players in old mmos try to grief me or anyone nearby for no reason at all.  It was often a daily event.  There was always some small scale event drama going on in the game.  Sometimes it ruined your night, sometimes it didn't.  Then one step above that was the epic server wide drama.  Some guild or group was always screwing over someone else.   The drama on EQVault made this site look like kindergardne playtime in comparison. 

Just look at the design of everquest.  The only way to advance in that game is at the expense of other players.  If you get access to a limited spawn boss, that means everyone else has to wait 7 days.  If you were camping a spot in a dungeon that meant no one else could play there.  That is just how it was and any game with that design philosophy is going to generate friction. 

There is no two ways about it, the old school communities were far worse in terms of anti-social behavior.  There just isn't even a comparison.

 

 

However, I preferred the mechanics of old school games that fostered more community building.  Less instant travel, no auction houses and to a small degree some of the game mechanics that encouraged player interaction.  Like non-instanced dungeons and player housing.  That all comes at a price though.  The more you require players to interact the more you expose players to griefers and just players who just enjoy spreading misery.  

New games are less social in comparison.  There isn't the need for a server wide community in modern games like there was in older games.  Most activities are structured around the guild level with small extensions to your circle of friends. 

 

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree because i feel that the older MMO communities had alot more socializing then the newer MMOs.   I also think that the older MMO gameplay prompted better communities because players had to rely on other players to advance forcing them to "play nice" for the most part.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by Anubisan

Originally posted by Daffid011
.....

Seriously have people lost that much perspective that they think players clogging a chat channel with inane chat are worse than people who pick your corpse clean of items, train your group to death and invoke the play-nice-policy to have your guild removed from the zone so they can get a boss encounter your guild already cleared to. 

I do a giant /facepalm everytime an old school player cries about todays communities in comparison to the old days.

 

Well said. I completely agree with everything you wrote...

It is clear to me that some of the old school MMOers have lost touch with the reality of the way things really were back in the 'good old days'.

When you look at the communities as a whole. The old school Communities were way better then the new game communities.  Sure the old school ones had their problems and sure every group of people will always have assholes but overall the communities in games like EQ1, DoAC and UO were way better, friendly places to be then the newer games.   To say other wise is just wrong.
 

EQ1 the community for the most part was great, how many times did people stop and help others finish epics? Corpse runs? answer questions without calling the other player a noob or a moron.   

I can name 10 examples of the community helping me right now that happened in EQ1 to myself by non guildies or RL friends.  By people I had never met before.   I cannot name one in WoW due to never wanting to deal with the "barren chat" morons.  So in WoW I keep to my guild and guild allies.

Just a touch of hyperbole there?

First you have to ignore all the bad that happened everyday in the old games to see the good.  Not such a great start to an argument trying to make the old communities look better. 

Then you can name some examples of good things, but nothing nice ever happened in wow?  Evere?  Please.

 

Let me turn the tables on you.

I have had just one instance of a asshole trying to grief me in wow and it was dealt with in a few minutes by a GM.  Poof, gone, ban vacation. 

Now on the flip side I cannot count how many times I had other players in old mmos try to grief me or anyone nearby for no reason at all.  It was often a daily event.  There was always some small scale event drama going on in the game.  Sometimes it ruined your night, sometimes it didn't.  Then one step above that was the epic server wide drama.  Some guild or group was always screwing over someone else.   The drama on EQVault made this site look like kindergardne playtime in comparison. 

Just look at the design of everquest.  The only way to advance in that game is at the expense of other players.  If you get access to a limited spawn boss, that means everyone else has to wait 7 days.  If you were camping a spot in a dungeon that meant no one else could play there.  That is just how it was and any game with that design philosophy is going to generate friction. 

There is no two ways about it, the old school communities were far worse in terms of anti-social behavior.  There just isn't even a comparison.

 

 

However, I preferred the mechanics of old school games that fostered more community building.  Less instant travel, no auction houses and to a small degree some of the game mechanics that encouraged player interaction.  Like non-instanced dungeons and player housing.  That all comes at a price though.  The more you require players to interact the more you expose players to griefers and just players who just enjoy spreading misery.  

New games are less social in comparison.  There isn't the need for a server wide community in modern games like there was in older games.  Most activities are structured around the guild level with small extensions to your circle of friends. 

 

 

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree because i feel that the older MMO communities had alot more socializing then the newer MMOs.   I also think that the older MMO gameplay prompted better communities because players had to rely on other players to advance forcing them to "play nice" for the most part.

Save your digits to intense bleeding. They majority has spoken. They want MMO's a monkey on meth can play.

Originally posted by Astralglide

Originally posted by clik

A-MEN! Blizzard made playing MMORPGs a socially acceptable activity, no longer relegated to losers living in their mother's basement. Think about how many girls and women play MMO's now- I would say in a large part- due to the popularity and social acceptability that Blizzard has created.

Yeah, I'm sure THIS isn't a stereotype and insinuating fact right? I started playing MMO's (EQ) when I was in the military...on a base, after doing a tour in the middle east mind you. A far cry from mom and dad's basement wearing a bathrobe and crushing a box of crispy creams while questing. 

Originally posted by TdogSkal

 

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree because i feel that the older MMO communities had alot more socializing then the newer MMOs.   I also think that the older MMO gameplay prompted better communities because players had to rely on other players to advance forcing them to "play nice" for the most part.

Actually I agree with most of this.  I have some very fond memories of the people I played with then, just like I do now.  

For example, SOE had to create "The Play Nice Policy" in direct response to players not playing nice with each other.  That pretty much dispells any theory that game mechanics forced players to play nice, because obviously they were not and additional rules and GM intervention were required.  This well over a year after the games release.

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by Astralglide

Originally posted by clik

A-MEN! Blizzard made playing MMORPGs a socially acceptable activity, no longer relegated to losers living in their mother's basement. Think about how many girls and women play MMO's now- I would say in a large part- due to the popularity and social acceptability that Blizzard has created.

 

Yeah, I'm sure THIS isn't a stereotype and insinuating fact right? I started playing MMO's (EQ) when I was in the military...on a base, after doing a tour in the middle east mind you. A far cry from mom and dad's basement wearing a bathrobe and crushing a box of crispy creams while questing. 

The sterotype SHOULD be insulting, and I am glad that it is fading away (you're looking at a guy who used to RP in highschool and still thinks that Legend of the Red Dragon was an awesome online game). All I'm saying is that those stereotypes still exist but are fading away due to the popularity of games like WoW

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by Anubisan

 

 

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree because i feel that the older MMO communities had alot more socializing then the newer MMOs.   I also think that the older MMO gameplay prompted better communities because players had to rely on other players to advance forcing them to "play nice" for the most part.

 

Save your digits to intense bleeding. They majority has spoken. They want MMO's a monkey on meth can play.

The saddest thing about that statement is....a lot of them ARE monkeys on meth.

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by TdogSkal

 

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree because i feel that the older MMO communities had alot more socializing then the newer MMOs.   I also think that the older MMO gameplay prompted better communities because players had to rely on other players to advance forcing them to "play nice" for the most part.

 

Actually I agree with most of this.  I have some very fond memories of the people I played with then, just like I do now.  

For example, SOE had to create "The Play Nice Policy" in direct response to players not playing nice with each other.  That pretty much dispells any theory that game mechanics forced players to play nice, because obviously they were not and additional rules and GM intervention were required.  This well over a year after the games release.

 

 

 

The "Play Nice Policy" was direct at the PvP servers not the PvE servers.  
 

Sure it was used on the PvE server but in over 7 years of playing on and off I rarely had issues with other players on my server.  I was in what you call an "Elite Guild" even though we did not act that way.   Sure we had our rivals due to boss spawns and then in PoP with flagging but overall the community was great.

AGAIN OVERALL the community was great.  People dropped what they were doing to help others get epics, get corpses, answer questions and even help get items.    My guild stopped and helped so many people get epics on the way to raid targets, it is not even funny and I am talking pre PoP.

Originally posted by Loricane

So...the general argument behind the past few threads seems to be this: (Please, correct me if I'm mistaken)

1) WoW became a massive success, with subscription numbers exceeding those of any MMO that came before it.

2) The subscription rates of new MMO's more closely resemble those of the older games in the genre, rather than WoW.

3) Because these new MMO's have not exceeded the popularity of WoW, but instead remained at the average pre-WoW level, they are miserable failures, and WoW has killed MMO gaming forever.

Is that about right?

 

Yes that is right.  Times have changed, standards have changed.  What use to be good or great is now sucky. 

WoW has done nothing but  brew up a nerd raging shit storm.

@ Astralglide

So, if only large companies can make MMO's tat compete with WoW, why is WAR (EA Games) doing so poorly? Why hasn't SOE had a game that has even half of the subscribers to WoW? Why is LOTRO (which is a beautiful and very fun game until the end-game grind) doing so poorly in subs? Is it because Blizzard is so successful, or is it because the other companies aren't putting out as high a quality game as WoW? If large companies are to blame, then maybe we, as a community, need to demand higher quality games that can compete with WoW.

[Side Note- I played the shit out of LOTRO until the end-game grind. The biggest turn off for me besides that was the closed UI, I am a huge fan of open UI. I also played the shit out of WAR for the first two weeks that it came out before I accepted that they hadn't bothered to polish the game that they designed and released a shoddy product which is unacceptable for a company EA's size]

Your points ring true, but allow me to make some small modifications to them, so they can be a more inclusive truth.

- Large companies have a better chance of 'competing'. I use the term 'competing' loosely, because it is met with context of 'subscriptions' these days, rather than actual quality game product. These large companies have failed, in part, due to this exact skew of focus.

- LOTRO might be doing poorly in subs quite simply because of the social osmosis that has occurred from WoW. I'm the only one of my friends who plays WAR, and eventually I tire and resub to WoW because it is where most of my RL pals play. They play there because they have their family or friends who do the same. This social osmosis won't be beat until some new studio releases a huge, amazing hit that plays as smooth as microwaved butter on bread. It's the same reason we use Windows versus Linux (ease of updates, 1 'standard' etc) (I'm not getting into the Mac debate here).

- It's a combination of Blizzard's success as well as that of lack-luster titles from other studios. WAR had nice elements to it, AoC combat was rather insightful, and Aion has amazing graphics. They all failed to bundle the whole package. Meanwhile, the social osmosis continues...

- Your last sentence of the first paragraph is to be posted on all MMO forums everywhere, but allow me to modify its ending: 'We, as a community, need to demand higher quality games'. Not just higher quality games that can compete with WoW, but also by pitting WoW against itself, where is it currently, and where *should* it be in terms of gameplay.

- Your second paragraph I already bundled a response to in my second bullet. Your favored game misses a key point for you, and by failing to deliver, you are let down. Mind you, you're not asking for CryEngine graphics from a game that is running 8bit Mario animations: you're asking for a snipet of source code to be altered that allows freedom with client-side UI. Again, we need to demand more from *all* games in this genre, WoW as well. Only then will we see truly refreshing gameplay.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

The "Play Nice Policy" was direct at the PvP servers not the PvE servers.  
 

Sure it was used on the PvE server but in over 7 years of playing on and off I rarely had issues with other players on my server.  I was in what you call an "Elite Guild" even though we did not act that way.   Sure we had our rivals due to boss spawns and then in PoP with flagging but overall the community was great.

AGAIN OVERALL the community was great.  People dropped what they were doing to help others get epics, get corpses, answer questions and even help get items.    My guild stopped and helped so many people get epics on the way to raid targets, it is not even funny and I am talking pre PoP.

The play nice policy was absolutely aimed at the pve servers, where players had no ability to "resolve" disputes.  The pvp server were told to resolve their issues through combat.  On a pve server, players had no real option to settle disputes and thus the play nice policy was born.  It was a direct results of players inability to play nice with each other and is very representative of the degree with which players had with each other.

 PNP policy for PVP servers   "8. On Zek, PvP-related Play Nice Policy situations are expected to be resolved using PvP solutions."

Sure nice things happened all the time in the old games, but OVERALL the disruptive behavior of players was far more commonplace in old mmos than it was today.  IThere are good players and acts of kindness in all games, but that is not what this disucssion was about. 

The discussion was about how "bad" current mmo communities are in comparison to old and the old had far more bitter nasty griefers running around.  I would think the very existance of the PNP and how it came about would be evidence enough for anyone to see that, but I guess not.  You can also see this same type of actions from UO with their pvp changes and trammel.  Origins came right out and admitted that the rampant griefing was so bad it was not only driving players away it was making it nearly impossible for new players to join the game.

There simply is nothing in current mmos that can be compared to the actions of those developers.  We can both talk about how we feel the communities were (and I did love them), but developers actions speak the truth.

The PC gaming forum I used to spend lots of time on died out after WoW, people were too busy playing WoW to visit their old forums.

The MUD I played died out, people were too busy playing WoW.

Blizzard hasn't released any other game since WoW, I used to be a huge fan of blizzard games (other than WoW).

So from my point of view, my favorite Forum, MUD, and PC gaming company all stopped doing things non-WoW. Major parts of my gaming life died because of WoW.

WoW killed many things, not just MMOs.

 Well, it appears there are millions of people that exist that are angry at Blizzard and WoW for ruining their games. With that many people, it should be easy to protest to actual video game forums... you know, REALLY blow them up... with the above arguments about how WoW has ruined everything, and demand that they change/revert back to the old days. I mean... I think EQ is still running... Ultima Online is still going strong as well. Lineage I and II are still hopping about. City of Heroes/Villains is still hanging in there. Anarchy online and DDO went F2P... but it still has the same content and fun it did when it was P2P. FFS even Meridian 59 is still around.

The solution is simple. It'll be an expensive fight, but it should be worth it. Everyone who hates WoW, should sub/resub to their "bestest" games... Pick THREE of the games you want to make a comeback! Really, as a lot of people say 14.99 is a drop in a bucket. So with the millions of anti-WoW gamers out there... this would be a massive feat in retaliation against WoW. Just one month... two at most is all you people would need. Then blow up their forums about the changes needed in order to keep the new massive influx of gamers. As you know, one angry MMO player represents 1 million people in forums, especially if they post multiple times in the same thread! The devs. would listen and begin remaking the game to please the vocal minority.

Everyone has made very valid points on why WoW destroyed the future of MMORPG's. I am just curious on what the solutions to fix the current dilemma is from our "top men". I gave my idea, and it'd work. If you don't think so, fine... give me one that would.

Originally posted by raystantz

 Your still not getting it.

 

EQ was an MMORPG...

UO was an MMORPG....

WoW is an MMO.

 

See the difference? You played a role in those other games. You were someone else. You weren't "OMGLOLDK" in the guild "At least we took stables".

The people who play WoW turned MMORPG's into a joke.

You still do not get it.  You classify anything you want, but that does not make it right.  It just makes you stupid.

Your passage turns you into a joke.