Originally posted by heremypet

Originally posted by Cephus404

This is yet another clear thread by someone without a secure grip on reality or the basic tenets of the capitalist system.  Whether you like it or not, *EVERY* company is in business to make a profit.  Some are just more transparent than others.  Blizzard makes a shitload of money and their shareholders are very, very happy.  The idea that they'd put out a game that nobdy wanted to pay for, just beause they want to make a game is absurd.  Nobody *EVER* does that.  It will never happen.  Games cost money to produce, they cost money to keep running, they have to pay for servers, bandwidth, GMs, programmers, etc.  Who do you think pays for all of that?  The Easter Bunny?

Geez, it's threads like this that make me weep for humanity.

 

I'm afraid I disagree.   I happen to know for a fact that not every person in a capitalist society values money above everything else, and not every company either.  They're out there, whether YOU like it or not.

You're not doing your credibility any good, you know.  Let us know when you wake up and stop fantasizing.

The ONLY thing that matters to me is if the game offers the features I want and the game population of the server I am playing is heavily populated.  I don't care if the game has millions of players spread over 5000 servers.  That means diddly squat to me the player.  The only time that revenue matters to me, as a player, is for keeping a dedicated developer team together in which they improve the player experience.

Originally posted by heremypet

Originally posted by Cephus404

This is yet another clear thread by someone without a secure grip on reality or the basic tenets of the capitalist system.  Whether you like it or not, *EVERY* company is in business to make a profit.  Some are just more transparent than others.  Blizzard makes a shitload of money and their shareholders are very, very happy.  The idea that they'd put out a game that nobdy wanted to pay for, just beause they want to make a game is absurd.  Nobody *EVER* does that.  It will never happen.  Games cost money to produce, they cost money to keep running, they have to pay for servers, bandwidth, GMs, programmers, etc.  Who do you think pays for all of that?  The Easter Bunny?

Geez, it's threads like this that make me weep for humanity.

 

I'm afraid I disagree.   I happen to know for a fact that not every person in a capitalist society values money above everything else, and not every company either.  They're out there, whether YOU like it or not.

Amen brother!  I am sure many employees love to get paid with the satisfaction of putting out a great game with soul, I like my satisfaction with a little bit of ketchup on a roll. 

Originally posted by heremypet

us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/about/mission.html

You don't see "maximize profits" anywhere in Blizzard's mission statement do you?  No you don't.  And even though I'm going to get flamed to high hell for saying this, I believe they're in the business of making good games first, and money making products second, which is the exact opposite of nearly everyone else.

"Value Creation
We must deliver consistent revenue and earnings growth, in order to provide our shareholders true value creation."
 

http://www.vivendi.com/vivendi/Our-Values

You were saying?

Every businesses primary focus is to make a profit. If you don't you will fail. You will not get any investors as they look for Return on Investment as the sole purpose of them lending you money. If a company cannot re-pay their investors they find themselves the recipient of a hostile takeover and liquidation.

Go start an MMORPG charity. Use everything from the subscription fee beyond the cost to keep the servers running to help poor children or something.

 Really, it's not a bad idea.

You can even pay your employees, and if you're the head of the company you can make 100's of thousands of dollars a year, and it's still a charity.

Even people that run charities have to get paid.

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by heremypet

All of these failing MMOs need to fire their accountants and hire some passionate game designers IMO

 

How can you hire game designers with no money?

I didn't mean no money.  I meant the companies might have better luck if they didn't base all of their decisions on profit, and focused firstly on making a good game.  I'm not saying they should not profit, don't misunderstand.  I thought the community would be with me on this actually, I'm surprised. 

For example when a company releases an unfinished MMO so they can start making money one month sooner, that is likely a decision based on profit.  Who wants to play a MMO that is released still in BETA?  If the company had been more focused on the quality of the game rather than just making money one month sooner, it would seem to me like the game would be better received etc.

Really I would think that a company focused primarily on making a great game would automatically profit when it's successful.  Kinda like the guys at Verant lol, they had no idea their game would be that successful, and I can imagine a similar situation happened during the release of WoW.

With the latest Madden or NBA game, you could question why they're making it.  Peddling the same game with new jerseys and team stats.  But to say Blizzard is more about the money than the game isn't looking at their history of always making quality games loads of people like and ONLY releasing them when they're ready.  How many games get pushed out the door in a beta state?  EQ2, WAR, AOC, AO, EVE, DAOC, Tabula Rasa, DF, Horizons...and it goes on and on.  

If they're not making a profit, the game isn't going to last.  So, you BETTER care a little=)

---

Originally posted by heremypet
I keep seeing all these arguments about "what is best for the profit of the company", or "because that's what makes them the most money".  I don't care one whit about the game companies profits, surely they must realize this? 

---

Of course they do. They just don't care. If people will buy it, it's good enough. If they won't, it's not. They don't care how you feel about it except as it affects how you buy it.

/end thread

Originally posted by heremypet

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by heremypet

All of these failing MMOs need to fire their accountants and hire some passionate game designers IMO

 

How can you hire game designers with no money?

I didn't mean no money.  I meant the companies might have better luck if they didn't base all of their decisions on profit, and focused firstly on making a good game.  I'm not saying they should not profit, don't misunderstand.  I thought the community would be with me on this actually, I'm surprised. 

For example when a company releases an unfinished MMO so they can start making money one month sooner, that is likely a decision based on profit.  Who wants to play a MMO that is released still in BETA?  If the company had been more focused on the quality of the game rather than just making money one month sooner, it would seem to me like the game would be better received etc.

Really I would think that a company focused primarily on making a great game would automatically profit when it's successful.  Kinda like the guys at Verant lol, they had no idea their game would be that successful, and I can imagine a similar situation happened during the release of WoW.

What's the best way to make money?

Make a good video game or a bad one?

The original poster makes a fine point that I think underlines the entire problem with the mmo idustry and people here just are not getting it.

Yes, all companies are in business to make money.  Everyone understands that companies are out to make money without it even being said.  It is just something that goes unspoken in a discussion like this. 

It is HOW they make games that is failing and the results certainly are not making money.  Currently game companies are more concerned with making a product that will show a return on investment than they are with making a compelling game.  In practice that makes a lot of sense, but it doesn't work in for mmos. 

The design process needs to be the exact opposite of that.  They need to focus on making a great game first.  The question that should be applied to every aspect of the game design should be "Is it fun?".  Instead we are getting companies that skip over that simple question and replace it with "Will this make more money".  

The result has been a rash of terrible, soulless and uninspired games that fail to meet even initial expectations.  How many times do we need to see the same companies repeating the same mistakes over and over again, before companies understand the mmo genre isn't some money tree to be shaken.

The money will come naturally if they do their jobs and focus on making a great game first and foremost.  Developers have totally lost sight with that concept.

Originally posted by heremypet

All of these failing MMOs need to fire their accountants and hire some passionate game designers IMO

As an auditor, I vote not to fire accountants or I would be out of a job In all seriousness though, I do agree with you. Unfortunately, this is the way business is headed and I don't think there is a lot of hope of going back. As soon as the market grew into something worth investing into by big business, its fate was sealed.

Originally posted by Daffid011

The original poster makes a fine point that I think underlines the entire problem with the mmo idustry and people here just are not getting it.

Yes, all companies are in business to make money.  Everyone understands that companies are out to make money without it even being said.  It is just something that goes unspoken in a discussion like this. 

It is HOW they make games that is failing and the results certainly are not making money.  Currently game companies are more concerned with making a product that will show a return on investment than they are with making a compelling game.  In practice that makes a lot of sense, but it doesn't work in for mmos. 

The design process needs to be the exact opposite of that.  They need to focus on making a great game first.  The question that should be applied to every aspect of the game design should be "Is it fun?".  Instead we are getting companies that skip over that simple question and replace it with "Will this make more money".  

The result has been a rash of terrible, soulless and uninspired games that fail to meet even initial expectations.  How many times do we need to see the same companies repeating the same mistakes over and over again, before companies understand the mmo genre isn't some money tree to be shaken.

 

The money will come naturally if they do their jobs and focus on making a great game first and foremost.  Developers have totally lost sight with that concept.

 

 

 

Or maybe, just like making a good movie it's not that easy to make a good MMORPG and they try to do that, but often fail.

I'm pretty sure if they could make a good mMORPG they would, because any idiot knows a good game will make you more money than a bad on.

I"m pretty sure the guys investing millions of dollars are not going, well guys, we could make a good MMORPG. I mean, we know exactly how to do that.

But let's not do that. Instead, let's try to make a bad game that makes up money, because sure, good games make money, but we'd like to see if  a crummy bug ridden piece of crap can make money too.

Sure, we've seen that fail countless times, but what the hell. It's only 30 40 million. Let's blow it and see what happens.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by heremypet

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by heremypet

All of these failing MMOs need to fire their accountants and hire some passionate game designers IMO

 

How can you hire game designers with no money?

I didn't mean no money.  I meant the companies might have better luck if they didn't base all of their decisions on profit, and focused firstly on making a good game.  I'm not saying they should not profit, don't misunderstand.  I thought the community would be with me on this actually, I'm surprised. 

For example when a company releases an unfinished MMO so they can start making money one month sooner, that is likely a decision based on profit.  Who wants to play a MMO that is released still in BETA?  If the company had been more focused on the quality of the game rather than just making money one month sooner, it would seem to me like the game would be better received etc.

Really I would think that a company focused primarily on making a great game would automatically profit when it's successful.  Kinda like the guys at Verant lol, they had no idea their game would be that successful, and I can imagine a similar situation happened during the release of WoW.

 

What's the best way to make money?

Make a good video game or a bad one?

 

I don't think it's as black and white as that.  Just like releasing an unfinished MMO early to make more profits, corners can be cut that take away from the games overall experience.  I don't think the community is unanimously willing to make sacrifices in their gameplay just to maximize profits for the game company, but yet I see people defending bad MMO decisions for seemingly that very reason.  That is really all I was getting at, sheesh.

Originally posted by wjrasmussen

How old are you and what do you do for  a living?

I am a 31 year old IT administrator, but that is irrelevant.  As I have already pointed out, I'm more of an "unhappy cog in the capitalist machine" =P

You don't need to play any game or pay them any money.

Im pretty sure most people in the gaming industry got in it for the passion. Maybe not the guys at the top, but the ones doing all the gruntwork may wonder every once in a while if they couldnt be doing something that pays better or if its really all worth it just for a shot at one day being able to make their own game.

You may all be somewhat selling the industry short, it really must take some passion for someone to somehow keep going after designing icons for armor pieces day in and out...

Yes, MMOs are a bussiness venture but inovation in any field requires guts. You may have a revolutionary concept brewing, but there really is no way to tell it apart from a bad idea until several millions of dollars have been invested and the concept has been tried. I dont entirely disagree with the OP, yes, MMOs are expensive projects but "playing it safe" on every single choice you must make really defeats the purpose of investing in the first place. Just churning out yet another WOW clone would seem to me a bad bussiness call given the success record of such games. Better to give something new a shot (even if in keeping within some tried concepts) and have at least a chance of hitting the jackpot.

Theres a fine line to walk in between sound bussiness and succesful inovation. Those who do manage are the success stories. IMO it would help if the ones doing the bussiness end of the deal were themselves gamers (which would give them a first hand perspective on wether something works) who were able to take distance and judge an idea for its worth. Its the same in any field, you wouldnt invest on a farm if you didnt know anything about agriculture nor would you get into managing an airline if you had no experience in the field.

Sure, some may argue theres a reason investors use consultants. But youre not a very good investor if you arent able to choose people with the right background to give you sound advice. And judging from the state of the MMO industry we do lack people with hands on knowledge on the bussiness end...

I dispute the notion that basing every decision in game design on "making a profit" actually makes a profit, or makes sense from a business angle.

First of all, it the goal of these publishers is to make a profit, there are far easier and more profitable ventures to go into than game design.  Selling derivitives doesn't require any coding, server space, overhead, customer service, or any of that; and it's a market that is worth more than the entire world's GDP.  So if profit was the only motive, game design seems like a far less profitable industry than many.

Second of all, I have to disagree with many of the posters here that say the industry lacks innovation.  The problem is that most of the innovation is on the business side, and not the design side.  F2P, micro, sponsorship, cross platform capability; all of this stuff is designed to make the MMOs more profitable, but have they succeeded?  What have all these "innovations in monetization of online space" really done to wrest away the market share from Blizzard?  NOTHING.

Seems to me that the OP has a point: directing game development from the finance and marketing departments--far from making profits--loses profits.  That's the lesson the last five years have shown.  You can design a good game that's profitable, but designing a profitable game will never be as good (or as profitable) as a game that was designed to be a good game.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp 

Or maybe, just like making a good movie it's not that easy to make a good MMORPG and they try to do that, but often fail.

I'm pretty sure if they could make a good mMORPG they would, because any idiot knows a good game will make you more money than a bad on.

I"m pretty sure the guys investing millions of dollars are not going, well guys, we could make a good MMORPG. I mean, we know exactly how to do that.

But let's not do that. Instead, let's try to make a bad game that makes up money, because sure, good games make money, but we'd like to see if  a crummy bug ridden piece of crap can make money too.

Sure, we've seen that fail countless times, but what the hell. It's only 30 40 million. Let's blow it and see what happens.

I did not say they set out to make bad games.  I said their perspectives are not right and their focus is not in the correct areas.

Companies right now are trying to make products.  When the leadership of the project is more focused on revenue streams, project deadlines and everything other than making a fun game then that will flow downhill to everything and everyone making the game.

If the passion to make a compelling game is replaced with passion for accounting, then you get what we have been getting for years. 

Is it hard to make great games, yes.  Are companies acting like it is easy, yes they are. 

How many games have we seen try to slap a recognized IP on top of some typical mmo elements and rush it to market in a sorry state and expect riches to fall from the heavens?  That is the result of revenue driven game design.  There is no passion from the people working on the project to make a kick ass game. 

Like I said, the first and most important question in the design process needs to be "Is this feature fun" and if the answer is no, then the game doesn't get released.  Sadly that is the phase that so many developers are cutting from their project management and the results can be see littered all over the place.

It is simply amazing to see companies release games and then scratch their heads why 800,000 players quit in the first few months.  It just shows how little they understand what players want.