Originally posted by Shannia

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Shannia

Originally posted by Kaisen_Dexx

 This is one of those ideas that I think looks good on paper, but will be, in actuality, one of the bricks on the road to hell. This more or less completely turns WoW into, as earlier posters said, a lobby game. And it also destroys any sense of continuity amongst the community in already established servers, while failing to create a global community due to limited and focused interaction.

 

I completely disagree.  It doesn't eliminate the LFG channel.  Most people will resort to that as a last effort for building a group, not the first.  You still have your friends and guildies to group with and this expands you pool of people when you can't find someone on your own server within a reasonable amount of time.  I can't tell you how many times in FFXI I wish there would have been something like this because we'd sit around for HOURS waiting for a WHM to log in.

 

And, with this in place, can we build cross server guilds? Why not?

 

Now that is a good question.  Since it is a LFG thing, I don't think so.  If they expand it for raiding and you can invite your friends (which you can do in the 5 man version) first with it, I see this as a tool to making your own PvP groups very exciting indeed. 

Are you saying guilds only exist for raiding?

You could make a guild for dungeon crawling, and make it a cross server guild.

For example, I make Dungeon Crawlers United, and have it set up on all servers, and when I use the new Pugging software I look for other DCU members.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Shannia

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Shannia

Originally posted by Kaisen_Dexx

 This is one of those ideas that I think looks good on paper, but will be, in actuality, one of the bricks on the road to hell. This more or less completely turns WoW into, as earlier posters said, a lobby game. And it also destroys any sense of continuity amongst the community in already established servers, while failing to create a global community due to limited and focused interaction.

 

I completely disagree.  It doesn't eliminate the LFG channel.  Most people will resort to that as a last effort for building a group, not the first.  You still have your friends and guildies to group with and this expands you pool of people when you can't find someone on your own server within a reasonable amount of time.  I can't tell you how many times in FFXI I wish there would have been something like this because we'd sit around for HOURS waiting for a WHM to log in.

 

And, with this in place, can we build cross server guilds? Why not?

 

Now that is a good question.  Since it is a LFG thing, I don't think so.  If they expand it for raiding and you can invite your friends (which you can do in the 5 man version) first with it, I see this as a tool to making your own PvP groups very exciting indeed. 

 

Are you saying guilds only exist for raiding?

You could make a guild for dungeon crawling, and make it a cross server guild.

For example, I make Dungeon Crawlers United, and have it set up on all servers, and when I use the new Pugging software I look for other DCU members.

No, not at all.  I think that would be an awesome concept.  You should run with it.

I see this thread took a couple spins here and there and has more or less died out, judging from timestamps. I don't mean to resurrect dead topics but I feel some points hadn't been fully discussed.

@ Shannia

If anything, this tool promotes people to not solo. Instead of just your server ot level up with in the low levels, it gives you 19 more servers worth of peple. That is HUGE. And for those people that say "but what about when the dungeon is over, how do I keep friends with anyone I like?" That is what battle.net is for. So that way you can keep track of cross realm and cross game friends. It doesn't get more social friendly.

The cross-realm LFG tool promotes an anti-social environment. Based on what you've said, I understand how you interpret the mechanic: you see more people having more access to more people. Raw number increase. I view the issue from a sociological stance- that is to say relating to social needs and issues.

If your goal is purely casual and social in nature, then yes, the new mechanic works in that fashion. Same concept as online dating. I meet new people, we hang out. Nothing serious.

If my goal is to solve a grouping dilemna, I've just created one. Rather than take the time and effort to meet (and suffer through meeting) people on my server that are 100% accessible, in a contact/be-contacted manner, I am now spending that time and ease of frustration through rolling the dice. Let's say I meet, and get along well with, someone from Server_32, two others from Server_15, and still another from Server_31... I have effectively done nothing towards sustaining my need to fill a group at any random time. I will perhaps, if it's even possible, group up with 1 or 2 of my cross-realm friends, but still need to fill more slots. Either I'm unable to get in contact with my other friends, or their social schedules differ due to they're being on different servers. You now no longer are using the cross-realm LFG tool as a crutch, you use it out of need. The servers themselves are barriers, and this tool is an artificial fix.

Rewind a bit, and examine classic WoW. In its conception, players experienced servers which, paraphrased from Blizzard, were 'worlds unto themselves'. Everyone kind of knew everyone else leveling up; who was good, who to blacklist, who was a ninja etc. At cap, people experienced frustration and the rush of success during mindless 40man raids and the r14 PvP system. I developped a group of individuals, a network, through which I played the game. How this differs from a cross-realm LFG system? We could easily argue back and forth about RL schedules, about being in seperate guilds, etc but let's not. These are all clearly issues that affect all players on all servers. But inarguably, being on a seperate server (*in the current design*) is the biggest limiting factor at play: I cannot actively engage in social activities with you because we do not share common chat servers, nor can we set up cross-faction groups- they must be PUGs.

On a realm-isolated system, grouping had longevity. You met people, developped bonds, and had solid groups if you invested the time and frustration to build your own social network. This network was accessible to all those within it, and networks obviously overlapped, meeting friends of friends etc. The biggest point I'm trying to make is that *community builds, promotes, and defines the grouping experience*. Without community, you're simply LFG to get something done. With whom? Doesn't matter, especially since we aren't on the same accessible network (server). And thus, the anti-social factor comes into play. Frustration is a necessity when longevity is part of your equation.

Again, this is in addition to cross-server character transfers, faction changes, and cross-realm BGs. It's another downward turn for the game, when you examine the social interactions that are lost in each of the processes.

@ Palebane

That makes alot of sense, but also, you have to figure that combining the servers like this makes it more like a single-server game such as EvE, which I think is great. The only downside to this new system is that you can't really interact with most of the other players outsdie the instances. Do you think WoW would be better or worse off if they had only one huge server to deal with?

You have noted the key down-side to all the mechanics that Blizzard introduced to WoW through the years- instancing. The entire game has become instanced. No one lives outside of instances. It's almost a microcasm to our society now that I think about it: people go home, turn on the tube, and zone out. Our obese society is due in large part to inactivity- especially physical, but social as well. Take classes, or do research on, the social patterns of demographics in the early 1900s and it is immediately apparent that humans would socialize much more often and with greater purpose. Without going on a tangent, people would meet up for dinner, drop by unexpected at a coworker's home, gather around the radio while having discussions of their own just to paint a small picture.

To answer your open-ended question about WoW being better or worse off if it abolished servers and embraced a single-server EVE-style concept... I'm not sure. I think the game world is too limited to allow for that kind of density. I think parts of the game, probably around 25-55 (I remember those levels as being the loneliest and hardest to grind out), would benefit, but on the whole the game wasn't designed for it. Therefor, its implimentation would be counter-productive. In its current state, it's an absolute disaster of development when you consider all the changes and 'ease of play' that have come along. Blizzard hasn't taught its gamers how to fish, it's merely handing fish out the second someone whines for one.

I stand by my statement that this new mechanic of cross-server LFG is a patch fix to a string of social-related problems in their game. In my personal opinion, Blizzard shouldn't have opened the flood gates with cross-realm transfers, then reduce their C/D, then institute cross-faction changes as if it wasn't easy enough to hit current cap in under 1 week as it was, or reduced PvP to BGs (honor grind), then cross-realm BGs, then arena play, or reduced raid sizes from 40 to 25, then 25 sharing its fame with 10, then badges for PUG'ers.

Because for all that frustration, all that heartache, there's no denying that friendships were forged. The vast majority of people who play the game now play it alongside the people with whom they played with back then, and most cite this as their number 1 reason for not being able to quit/ stay away from the game. I do not have proof of this, but I would hope that the claims in this paragraph are universally accepted.

Blizzard should have split raiding content between 40 and 20, and 'taught' raiders 'how to fish'... easing the transition from 5man groups to 15man UBRS to 20man ZG's to 40man MC's. Blizzard should have made questing more streamlined so that reaching 60 wasn't such a chore (for solo'ers), alongside giving more instance options a la SM with 4 wings that covered 10+ levels of play (for groupers). Every change Blizzard has implimented to date has been a patch-fix to an error with their original design, and every fix has chipped away at the community.

I realize my post is rapidly losing its objectivity with statements and supporting arguments and becoming one of a rant-session so I'll stop there. Please forgive any ill-formulated thoughts as it's now closing time at work. RL still does affect online time, eh? ;) Apologies for the mammoth post!

It's just PUGs mate, not marriage.

For most people, PUGs are nothing more than the last ditch effort to get something done.

Very few people are gonna consider the sociological or psychological implications, they'll just be happy that they have an increased pool of available, semi-intelligent keyboard-pokers to draft into their (likely doomed) PUG.

@ Zorndorf

This cherished guild leveling system for both PvE and PvP works against cross-realm grouping. It furthers the divide between a goal and its accomplishment. The means to one end isn't available through a resource being offered. This says, to me, there is clearly a lack of complete picture. For the very reasons you cite, mind you.

Me always playing according to my rules is precisely what I've 'ranted about' for 300 lines. It's detrimental. I've outlined why.

@ Ilvaldyr

Thank you for understanding the message without a biased interpretation. And you are 100% correct: it's not marriage, nowhere is it that serious. The simplistic outlook portrayed by your post rings true. While I examine much of the depth involved in a solid game, you cleanly state how the masses won't notice the negatives and will enjoy the simplicity of the tool being offered.

Edit: Format

Originally posted by pojung

 

I see this thread took a couple spins here and there and has more or less died out, judging from timestamps. I don't mean to resurrect dead topics but I feel some points hadn't been fully discussed.

@ Shannia

If anything, this tool promotes people to not solo. Instead of just your server ot level up with in the low levels, it gives you 19 more servers worth of peple. That is HUGE. And for those people that say "but what about when the dungeon is over, how do I keep friends with anyone I like?" That is what battle.net is for. So that way you can keep track of cross realm and cross game friends. It doesn't get more social friendly.

The cross-realm LFG tool promotes an anti-social environment. Based on what you've said, I understand how you interpret the mechanic: you see more people having more access to more people. Raw number increase. I view the issue from a sociological stance- that is to say relating to social needs and issues.

If your goal is purely casual and social in nature, then yes, the new mechanic works in that fashion. Same concept as online dating. I meet new people, we hang out. Nothing serious.

If my goal is to solve a grouping dilemna, I've just created one. Rather than take the time and effort to meet (and suffer through meeting) people on my server that are 100% accessible, in a contact/be-contacted manner, I am now spending that time and ease of frustration through rolling the dice. Let's say I meet, and get along well with, someone from Server_32, two others from Server_15, and still another from Server_31... I have effectively done nothing towards sustaining my need to fill a group at any random time. I will perhaps, if it's even possible, group up with 1 or 2 of my cross-realm friends, but still need to fill more slots. Either I'm unable to get in contact with my other friends, or their social schedules differ due to they're being on different servers. You now no longer are using the cross-realm LFG tool as a crutch, you use it out of need. The servers themselves are barriers, and this tool is an artificial fix.

Rewind a bit, and examine classic WoW. In its conception, players experienced servers which, paraphrased from Blizzard, were 'worlds unto themselves'. Everyone kind of knew everyone else leveling up; who was good, who to blacklist, who was a ninja etc. At cap, people experienced frustration and the rush of success during mindless 40man raids and the r14 PvP system. I developped a group of individuals, a network, through which I played the game. How this differs from a cross-realm LFG system? We could easily argue back and forth about RL schedules, about being in seperate guilds, etc but let's not. These are all clearly issues that affect all players on all servers. But inarguably, being on a seperate server (*in the current design*) is the biggest limiting factor at play: I cannot actively engage in social activities with you because we do not share common chat servers, nor can we set up cross-faction groups- they must be PUGs.

On a realm-isolated system, grouping had longevity. You met people, developped bonds, and had solid groups if you invested the time and frustration to build your own social network. This network was accessible to all those within it, and networks obviously overlapped, meeting friends of friends etc. The biggest point I'm trying to make is that *community builds, promotes, and defines the grouping experience*. Without community, you're simply LFG to get something done. With whom? Doesn't matter, especially since we aren't on the same accessible network (server). And thus, the anti-social factor comes into play. Frustration is a necessity when longevity is part of your equation.

Again, this is in addition to cross-server character transfers, faction changes, and cross-realm BGs. It's another downward turn for the game, when you examine the social interactions that are lost in each of the processes.

 

@ Palebane

That makes alot of sense, but also, you have to figure that combining the servers like this makes it more like a single-server game such as EvE, which I think is great. The only downside to this new system is that you can't really interact with most of the other players outsdie the instances. Do you think WoW would be better or worse off if they had only one huge server to deal with?

You have noted the key down-side to all the mechanics that Blizzard introduced to WoW through the years- instancing. The entire game has become instanced. No one lives outside of instances. It's almost a microcasm to our society now that I think about it: people go home, turn on the tube, and zone out. Our obese society is due in large part to inactivity- especially physical, but social as well. Take classes, or do research on, the social patterns of demographics in the early 1900s and it is immediately apparent that humans would socialize much more often and with greater purpose. Without going on a tangent, people would meet up for dinner, drop by unexpected at a coworker's home, gather around the radio while having discussions of their own just to paint a small picture.

To answer your open-ended question about WoW being better or worse off if it abolished servers and embraced a single-server EVE-style concept... I'm not sure. I think the game world is too limited to allow for that kind of density. I think parts of the game, probably around 25-55 (I remember those levels as being the loneliest and hardest to grind out), would benefit, but on the whole the game wasn't designed for it. Therefor, its implimentation would be counter-productive. In its current state, it's an absolute disaster of development when you consider all the changes and 'ease of play' that have come along. Blizzard hasn't taught its gamers how to fish, it's merely handing fish out the second someone whines for one.

I stand by my statement that this new mechanic of cross-server LFG is a patch fix to a string of social-related problems in their game. In my personal opinion, Blizzard shouldn't have opened the flood gates with cross-realm transfers, then reduce their C/D, then institute cross-faction changes as if it wasn't easy enough to hit current cap in under 1 week as it was, or reduced PvP to BGs (honor grind), then cross-realm BGs, then arena play, or reduced raid sizes from 40 to 25, then 25 sharing its fame with 10, then badges for PUG'ers.

Because for all that frustration, all that heartache, there's no denying that friendships were forged. The vast majority of people who play the game now play it alongside the people with whom they played with back then, and most cite this as their number 1 reason for not being able to quit/ stay away from the game. I do not have proof of this, but I would hope that the claims in this paragraph are universally accepted.

Blizzard should have split raiding content between 40 and 20, and 'taught' raiders 'how to fish'... easing the transition from 5man groups to 15man UBRS to 20man ZG's to 40man MC's. Blizzard should have made questing more streamlined so that reaching 60 wasn't such a chore (for solo'ers), alongside giving more instance options a la SM with 4 wings that covered 10+ levels of play (for groupers). Every change Blizzard has implimented to date has been a patch-fix to an error with their original design, and every fix has chipped away at the community.

 

I realize my post is rapidly losing its objectivity with statements and supporting arguments and becoming one of a rant-session so I'll stop there. Please forgive any ill-formulated thoughts as it's now closing time at work. RL still does affect online time, eh? ;) Apologies for the mammoth post!

The point is a server wide LFG system, while great for constantly grouping, will not feel like the grouping in EQ or DAoC, and will not produce the same sort of community.  You may like or dislike that, but unless you played one of those games you probably dont' understand the difference.

 In EQ for example, those in your level range would get to know you and if you were an asshat, people loved to spread that message.

Eventually, you'd run out of people to group with, and it wasn't easy to solo. Big incentive to be nice to each other, and to be part of the community.

With this system, you could play with new people every time you game, no problem. That option didn't exist in EQ.

Some on this thread dont' understand the difference between constantly grouping, and being part of a small community.

I loved playing Diablo, but there was no community, just tons of other players to group with. That's different from playing EQ, with limited amounts of players to group with, but a very solid community.

If all you're into is the hop in and group, hop out sort of thing which already exists in WoW, and not the sort of community that existed in EQ then this works great.

If you never played EQ or DAoC, you probably have no idea what I'm talking about.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

The point is a server wide LFG system, while great for constantly grouping, will not feel like the grouping in EQ or DAoC, and will not produce the same sort of community.  You may like or dislike that, but unless you played one of those games you probably dont' understand the difference.

 

 

Since my answer and edit crossed your post: some few lines to think about .... player....

What's important in an on line game ???

The gamer. He has a choice of playing HIS game for 24/7 now be it in PVP or PVE, be it solo or group wise. Guild wise or realm wise... I HAVE A CHOICE.

 

----------

My son has a football training every night from 06.pm to 08.30pm from monday to friday. A match on saturday and sunday another training in the morning. I can only do guild play on friday and sometimes on sunday.

With a cross server PUG PVE/PVE I can enjoy myself 24/7 when I have the time, not when others dicatate me.

Simple facts that lead to succes.
 

Again, if you haven't played EQ or DAoC for any length of time, you probably don't know what I'm talking about.

This post doesn't seem to have anything to do with anything I said.

I was talking about a sense of community, and the sort of grouping you did in EQ and DAoC as opposed to a lobby game.

If you're just saying, hey, I LIKE lobby game,s they are great! Well, I agree with you, they can be alot of fun.

But if you're saying, hey, Lobby games are EXACTLY like open world games on a single server!

Uh, no, they aren't. You'd have try one to know the difference.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

 

The point is a server wide LFG system, while great for constantly grouping, will not feel like the grouping in EQ or DAoC, and will not produce the same sort of community.  You may like or dislike that, but unless you played one of those games you probably dont' understand the difference.

 In EQ for example, those in your level range would get to know you and if you were an asshat, people loved to spread that message.

Eventually, you'd run out of people to group with, and it wasn't easy to solo. Big incentive to be nice to each other, and to be part of the community.

With this system, you could play with new people every time you game, no problem. That option didn't exist in EQ.

Some on this thread dont' understand the difference between constantly grouping, and being part of a small community.

I loved playing Diablo, but there was no community, just tons of other players to group with. That's different from playing EQ, with limited amounts of players to group with, but a very solid community.

If all you're into is the hop in and group, hop out sort of thing which already exists in WoW, and not the sort of community that existed in EQ then this works great.

If you never played EQ or DAoC, you probably have no idea what I'm talking about.

Very valid point. I don't think most players in WoW will really care however, which is a shame. DDO is a good example of a game where in-server grouping was really successful and if anyone has played that for a while, you can relate. At least before F2P, the servers were relatively small, but there were still groups to join regardless. The community of each server was so tight that I felt like I knew most people, just by PUGing.

When I looked on the LFM to choose a group, I normally looked at the players and chose the group with players I knew were good over the ones that were arrogant and annoying. A small community has some really great "out of game" benefits like relationships and social fun. However it doesnt have any ingame tangible benefits.

Some are for one and some for the other. But I do agree, to those that haven't been inside of and a part of a small community, this idea seems great.. But for me, not so much because it is basically playing XBOX LIVE with WoW... not fun.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

The point is a server wide LFG system, while great for constantly grouping, will not feel like the grouping in EQ or DAoC, and will not produce the same sort of community.  You may like or dislike that, but unless you played one of those games you probably dont' understand the difference.

 

 

Since my answer and edit crossed your post: some few lines to think about .... player....

What's important in an on line game ???

The gamer. He has a choice of playing HIS game for 24/7 now be it in PVP or PVE, be it solo or group wise. Guild wise or realm wise... I HAVE A CHOICE.

 

----------

My son has a football training every night from 06.pm to 08.30pm from monday to friday. A match on saturday and sunday another training in the morning. I can only do guild play on friday and sometimes on sunday.

With a cross server PUG PVE/PVE I can enjoy myself 24/7 when I have the time, not when others dicatate me.

Simple facts that lead to succes.
 

 

Again, if you haven't played EQ or DAoC for any length of time, you probably don't know what I'm talking about.

This post doesn't seem to have anything to do with anything I said.

I was talking about a sense of community, and the sort of grouping you did in EQ and DAoC as opposed to a lobby game.

If you're just saying, hey, I LIKE lobby game,s they are great! Well, I agree with you, they can be alot of fun.

But if you're saying, hey, Lobby games are EXACTLY like open world games on a single server!

Uh, no, they aren't. You'd have try one to know the difference.

Dear friend,....
 

Did you even read what I wrote about the NEW guild leveling system that will be introduced at the same time ???

Guilds will level now in WOW, with PVE content and with a competitive PvP content (with related titles etc...).

REALM BASED GUILD LEVELING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in YOUR REALM and Oh God .... open world .

You will even NEED to do it with your guild to participate in those guild rated PvP ratings.

For example: Only BG's with a fixed GUILD % will be rated and will give you competetive titles.

This is in ADDITION to the cross servers for doing dungeons. As a matter of fact the cross servers for the BG  will now come to the PVE dungeons.

BOTH plays are included.

AND ... a NEW open world PvP zone will be included too -  just realm based -

It is just a further 24/7 possibility of PVP or PVE play. OPTIONS remember.

 Since when is ADDING other playing options bad ???

Only when you talk about WOW you find these silly discussions.

 

I'm not saying it's bad. Nothing in a game is bad if there is a player base taht finds it fun.

I'm saying it's different. Not the same.

I like First Person Shooters. I also like Role Playing GAmes. Neither one is "bad". They are different.

A pugging system for jumping into instances is like a lobby game. It's not like the open world of EQ or DAoC.

Neither is "bad". both can be fun. But they are not alike. They are different.

Man, people are taking this and just twisting it far out of context.

The new system is no different than what is currently used for BG's, only this one is for instances. The vast majority of people are going to continue on as they normally do, PUGing people in chat to fill groups. I've done a number of guild BG's even thought they aren't necessary as BG's aren't all that complicated.

But what about the poor swing shift worker who can only play from 8a to 1p daily? Not a lot of people play during those times and I've never seen a scheduled run before 5p. This tool will allow them to still run instances by giving them access to a larger pool of potential partners.

WoW isn't going to turn into a lobby game just because of this, nor will socialization go out the window. If anything, a greater pool of people will be available to socialize with. These are groundless fears.

Take it only for what it is, another tool to increase a players game experience. I myself am looking forward to running level 60 instances with a level 60 group instead of a level 80 pally dragging 4 other people through it. Its going to open up a lot of old content to new players and allow people leveling up alts a chance to rediscover the old instances that tend to just get passed by because of the perception that one has to get to the highest level as fast as possible to enjoy the game.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

The point is a server wide LFG system, while great for constantly grouping, will not feel like the grouping in EQ or DAoC, and will not produce the same sort of community.  You may like or dislike that, but unless you played one of those games you probably dont' understand the difference.

 

 

Since my answer and edit crossed your post: some few lines to think about .... player....

What's important in an on line game ???

The gamer. He has a choice of playing HIS game for 24/7 now be it in PVP or PVE, be it solo or group wise. Guild wise or realm wise... I HAVE A CHOICE.

 

----------

My son has a football training every night from 06.pm to 08.30pm from monday to friday. A match on saturday and sunday another training in the morning. I can only do guild play on friday and sometimes on sunday.

With a cross server PUG PVE/PVE I can enjoy myself 24/7 when I have the time, not when others dicatate me.

Simple facts that lead to succes.
 

 

Again, if you haven't played EQ or DAoC for any length of time, you probably don't know what I'm talking about.

This post doesn't seem to have anything to do with anything I said.

I was talking about a sense of community, and the sort of grouping you did in EQ and DAoC as opposed to a lobby game.

If you're just saying, hey, I LIKE lobby game,s they are great! Well, I agree with you, they can be alot of fun.

But if you're saying, hey, Lobby games are EXACTLY like open world games on a single server!

Uh, no, they aren't. You'd have try one to know the difference.

Dear friend,....
 

Did you even read what I wrote about the NEW guild leveling system that will be introduced at the same time ???

Guilds will level now in WOW, with PVE content and with a competitive PvP content (with related titles etc...).

REALM BASED GUILD LEVELING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in YOUR REALM and Oh God .... open world .

You will even NEED to do it with your guild to participate in those guild rated PvP ratings.

For example: Only BG's with a fixed GUILD % will be rated and will give you competetive titles.

This is in ADDITION to the cross servers for doing dungeons. As a matter of fact the cross servers for the BG  will now come to the PVE dungeons.

BOTH plays are included.

AND ... a NEW open world PvP zone will be included too -  just realm based -

It is just a further 24/7 possibility of PVP or PVE play. OPTIONS remember.

 Since when is ADDING other playing options bad ???

Only when you talk about WOW you find these silly discussions.

 

YEAH!!!

We have this guild levelling thing in other game in the past.  Its quite fun.

Great - What's next?

Allow unlimited TWINKING between servers? Allow High levels to totally screw up the AH worse than it is now with all of their gold in inter-server transfers?

Things are rough now for anyone who wants to play the HARD way - do it all on their own without help.

This will be wonderful for the totally inept kiddies who need a herd of people to do what others can do alone. CONGRATS.

So far it appears that it will not affect ME too much. I will just ignore this BS as I have in the past.

As I said in the past on other threads - I play for relaxation - on MY schedule. I do NOT want to be tied to SOMEONE ELSES time frame. I am NOT trying to reach MAX cap as fast as possible. Just today I spent 3 hours on one troop just running his Herbalism up. No one bitched at me for holding them up - wonder why?

I pay nearly $180 per year each on TWO accounts. I'm paying for my time - I'll play my way.

I have no problem with how ANYONE ELSE plays - as long as it doesn't affect how I can Play.

As the old song goes "I'll do it my way."

Not that i play WoW but immersion killer.

@ Zorndorf

Clearly, and nowhere in this thread does anyone dispute the immediate gains to a tool that increases access to a larger playerbase.

You paired your examples. I provided why that pairing further proved my point: that there are issues that spring up and all issues are seemingly solved one at a time, without a global picture in mind. Systems implimented that bring aspects of the game together, that bridge divides- these are indicative of a global picture understanding.

When leveling in classic, groups were available for any range of play. In BC, not so much. In WoLK, almost non-existent. While this is an issue with a leveling game whose base is at cap, there has also been a shift in mentality. While there is nothing but empirical evidence to be claimed here, I attribute the lack of options for grouping to a mentality that has shifted to being solo-only. If you had experienced the game through its stages you would have noticed the same thing. Is this across all servers and all players? No, but if undisputed evidence were to present itself, I guarantee it would note a decline in grouping due to lack of interest socially. I call again on my statement that each fix has chipped away at the social block. Chip away enough or long enough and you have no social base left.

Are these 'principles'? Yes, but proven nonetheless. While you gain a personal, immediate gain, you lose a little.

I would like to believe that I am someone who discusses things with people then forms an opinion based on the facts I know. Based on your enthousiasm for WoW in this and other threads, it's clear to me you're a diehard fan and that's that. I sincerely hope you enjoy your game, I'm merely examining the game you enjoy and uncovering less-than-obvious facets at play.

@ Ihmotepp

I played EQ but not as extensively as I would have liked. I'll look into those systems for further knowledge. Curses for not having played DAoC, I repeatedly hear about its PvP system and kick myself for not fully looking into it at the time.

Originally posted by Yohanu

Not that i play WoW but immersion killer.

I think that's the best way to put it.

In an open world like EQ or DAoC, it was extremely immersive, at least for me.

Lobby games played in instances are fun. As I"ve stated I played the heck out of Diablo and had a blast doing it. But it was not immersive.

I don't think using this pugging system to constantly jump into instances will be immersive either.

That doesn't mean it can't be fun, but it cannot be fun in the same way an immersive open world is.

Originally posted by Palebane

Originally posted by pojung

Can no one else see this for what it is? It's a patch-solution to a problem with the game's design. Does it make grouping easier? Absolutely. But at what cost? It further destroys the sense of community in the game. No, I don't want my cake and eat it too: I know it's perfectly possible to establish a product that meets all expectations.

A server by design or by result promotes community. Breaking down the playerbase at large into smaller morsels that people can identify with, developping loyalties and rivalries.

Let's add this current implimentation to cross-server BGs, server transfers, and faction switches... and it's just one more thing that chips away at the communities in WoW. Blizzard's design of PvP inside of WoW was flawed on servers with faction imbalance, and server/faction switches wouldn't be necessary had their leveling process been more enjoyable or streamlined.

It would be refreshing to establish a game design that solved the grouping senario without having to do so at another social cost. While Blizzard is to be commended for their recognizing a problem and finding a solution for it, I personally feel that a studio of Blizzard's caliber fell far short of the insightfulness most gamers know they are capable of.

Edit: Grammar

 

That makes alot of sense, but also, you have to figure that combining the servers like this makes it more like a  single-server game such as  EvE, which I think is great. The only downside to this new system is that you can't really interact with most of the other players outsdie the instances. Do you think WoW would be better or worse off if they had only one huge server to deal with?

NOT true. They are adding cross server chat as well. All of this is why WoW accounts are being merged with Battle.net, so that everyone has a much broader base of players to group with, socialize with, etc. Cross server chat has been planned and in the works for a long while.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

No better company to run it than Vivox. :) 

 

So in short, some of the main features of Puggable include:

* Search for other players of complementary skills and comparable level
* Communicate objectives and become familiar with one another via voice prior to entering the game
* Continue communications without switching voice applications into the game
* Invite new players along the way

 

It looks like a really great tool and I'm hoping people take advantage of it. .

What "Puggable" does NOT include....

Any cross server functionality. 

Puggable is....forgettable.  Puggable was/is simply an LFG 3rd party tool that does nothing that the LFG UI in game doesn't already do, only it's bigger. You can see it on a WHOLE web page....whoopedy doo.  Why add a 3rd party mod, essentially, when the game itself already has the same function?

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by pojung

@ Zorndorf

This cherished guild leveling system for both PvE and PvP works against cross-realm grouping. It furthers the divide between a goal and its accomplishment. The means to one end isn't available through a resource being offered. This says, to me, there is clearly a lack of complete picture. For the very reasons you cite, mind you.

Me always playing according to my rules is precisely what I've 'ranted about' for 300 lines. It's detrimental. I've outlined why.

You're wrong (again).
 

What's important in an on line game ???

The gamer. He has a choice of playing HIS game for 24/7 now be it in PVP or PVE, be it solo or group wise.

If he plays with friends and his guild: no problem he can make agendas and level now his guild both in PvP and PVE and be proud of his guild status and realm pride in the upcoming patch.

If he plays alone at 02.00 AM... , he ALWAYS can finally play in group now or solo, be it PVE  or PVP.

The rest doesn't matter. He plays it groupwise  or solowise or realm wise with the friends (realm guild).

WIN/WIN for ... the 24/7 playing player.

Rest is bullshit. It is the player that counts.

That's why Blizzard always makes the better games: they think about the players and their rewards.

Not about "principles" that don't make sense in a video game.

-----

My son has a football training every night from 06.pm to 08.30pm from monday to friday. A match on saturday and sunday another training in the morning. I can only do guild play on friday and sometimes on sunday.

With a cross server PUG PVE/PVE I can enjoy myself 24/7 when I have the time, not when others dicatate me.

Simple facts that lead to succes.

And I didn't know you already designed a game with 12 million players either ...

And continually adding more CHOICES for ways to do things....is one of the reasons that WoW has such a huge subscriber base.  You don't have to use every option they present.  What makes the difference is....that they present OPTIONS, at ALL. Not everyone wants the same things in an MMO.  Blizzard ATTEMPTS to give people more choices on how to play, than what you will find in most MMOs.

Like it or not......it's continuing to make them very very very rich.

Originally posted by Grayseven

Man, people are taking this and just twisting it far out of context.

 

The new system is no different than what is currently used for BG's, only this one is for instances. The vast majority of people are going to continue on as they normally do, PUGing people in chat to fill groups. I've done a number of guild BG's even thought they aren't necessary as BG's aren't all that complicated.

 

But what about the poor swing shift worker who can only play from 8a to 1p daily? Not a lot of people play during those times and I've never seen a scheduled run before 5p. This tool will allow them to still run instances by giving them access to a larger pool of potential partners.

 

There Blizzard goes AGAIN....trying to make it possible for a huge variety of "types" of gamers, with all different RL lifestyles and situations, to play their game. Shame on them? That's what some people would say, but...  Uhm.....no.  They're brilliant.  And they are very very freaking RICH because of it.

 

WoW isn't going to turn into a lobby game just because of this, nor will socialization go out the window. If anything, a greater pool of people will be available to socialize with. These are groundless fears.

 

Take it only for what it is, another tool to increase a players game experience. I myself am looking forward to running level 60 instances with a level 60 group instead of a level 80 pally dragging 4 other people through it. Its going to open up a lot of old content to new players and allow people leveling up alts a chance to rediscover the old instances that tend to just get passed by because of the perception that one has to get to the highest level as fast as possible to enjoy the game.

Originally posted by girlgeek

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by pojung

@ Zorndorf

This cherished guild leveling system for both PvE and PvP works against cross-realm grouping. It furthers the divide between a goal and its accomplishment. The means to one end isn't available through a resource being offered. This says, to me, there is clearly a lack of complete picture. For the very reasons you cite, mind you.

Me always playing according to my rules is precisely what I've 'ranted about' for 300 lines. It's detrimental. I've outlined why.

You're wrong (again).
 

What's important in an on line game ???

The gamer. He has a choice of playing HIS game for 24/7 now be it in PVP or PVE, be it solo or group wise.

If he plays with friends and his guild: no problem he can make agendas and level now his guild both in PvP and PVE and be proud of his guild status and realm pride in the upcoming patch.

If he plays alone at 02.00 AM... , he ALWAYS can finally play in group now or solo, be it PVE  or PVP.

The rest doesn't matter. He plays it groupwise  or solowise or realm wise with the friends (realm guild).

WIN/WIN for ... the 24/7 playing player.

Rest is bullshit. It is the player that counts.

That's why Blizzard always makes the better games: they think about the players and their rewards.

Not about "principles" that don't make sense in a video game.

-----

My son has a football training every night from 06.pm to 08.30pm from monday to friday. A match on saturday and sunday another training in the morning. I can only do guild play on friday and sometimes on sunday.

With a cross server PUG PVE/PVE I can enjoy myself 24/7 when I have the time, not when others dicatate me.

Simple facts that lead to succes.

And I didn't know you already designed a game with 12 million players either ...

 

And continually adding more CHOICES for ways to do things....is one of the reasons that WoW has such a huge subscriber base.  You don't have to use every option they present.  What makes the difference is....that they present OPTIONS, at ALL. Not everyone wants the same things in an MMO.  Blizzard ATTEMPTS to give people more choices on how to play, than what you will find in most MMOs.

Like it or not......it's continuing to make them very very very rich.

and there's nothing wrong with appealing to the least common denominator, and certainly it is a way to get rich.

But yet, cult classic movies continue to get made, and are usually what I'd rather watch than what's popular.

I'm sure Saw 23 will make a lot of money and appeals ot a lot of people, but I think I'll skip it.