Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by Arndur

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by Sabiancym

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by Sabiancym

Anyone who doesn't vote but still complains about what is decided in the elections is a moron.  Plain and simple.  You'll get no sympthy from me.

 

Don't like any of the choices on the ballot?  Vote for the least of the evils.  I know people don't like doing that, but one of them is going to get elected no matter what you do, so shouldn't it be the one that you dislike the least.  Maybe you should have supported someone else in getting on the ballot.

If you really can't vote for anybody for whatever reason, leave it blank and move on to the other issues.  There are almost always more than one thing to vote for per ballot. 

 

So you go out of your way, you spend hours in line to vote and for what? For no reason at all.

To suggest that you're not allowed to complain unless you waste your time contributing nothing at all is just absurd.

oh but i'm voting so at least i'm doing something about it

No you're not. You're not doing anything about it, you're wasting your time. Your vote has no effect on the election outcome whatsoever.

 

 

But one vote is contributing.  That's what you don't seem to understand. 

 

I don't know why you posted this.  Because if you somehow convince a bunch of people that voting is pointless, ironically, you could remove enough votes to actually impact the outcome of an election.  Then that would completely ruin the convenient little lazy excuse you have for not going out and voting.

 

 

 

You have seriously deluded yourself if you convinced yourself your vote is contributing.

Your vote isn't contributing whatsoever and it's not going to change the outcome in any way or form. You're not changing anything and your vote has no impact on it whatsoever.

b-b-but every little bit counts

No it doesn't. It's only the big numbers that count, your vote doesn't matter because you're not changing the outcome.

Guess what: Obama would still have won if you didn't vote. Obama would still have won if you and everybody you knew who voted for Obama didn't vote for him.

Again more illogical arguments to vote.

I could remove enough votes to actually impact the outcome of an election? No I don't. I only have an impact on the election if it is dead center 50 - 50 and the difference is 1 vote. Only then can I make a decision that effects the outcome.

Your excuse is just as bad as the "if everybody wouldn't vote? one.

I posted this to share my views with other people and to see if anybody disagrees with valid counterarguments. As you can see, nobody is able to provide a good, logical reason to waste your time and vote. The closest one was deandor when talking about local elections.

The other people either have deluded themselves their vote actually has an impact, such as yourself, or they can't find any reason at all and they just start flaming.

 

So in the last election what if 10 million decided to stay home because they were sure Obama had enough votes and theirs didn't matter? McCain wins and then they spend 4 years complaining. I agree with Sab those that don't vote have no right to complain. If your not going to make your voice heard when it matters most why should they listen to you later?

O and heres a list of fun sized countries you could move to where I'm sure your vote would matter.

http://www.cracked.com/article_15821_fun-size-countries-insane-histories-worlds-6-tiniest-nations.html

 

But are we talking about 10 million people? No. We're talking about you as an individual. If you stop voting, nothing changes, there are no 10 million Obama voters that will stop voting if you stop voting. If you stop voting, there are still  9.999.999 voters left = still a victory for Obama, your vote didn't change anything.

Stop using What if scenarios that not in touch with reality.

You're not making your voice heard. Oh you're yelling and screaming, sure, but nobody listens to it. Do you know why? Because 200 million people are screaming and yelling just as hard as you do and your voice is lost within it. 

 

Enkindu: Actually my logic works just fine. It's yours that is deeply flawed. I use reality, you use fictional what if scenarios, which is exactly why you're unable to answer these 3 basic, simple questions i asked you.

Your logic assumes I would be the only person in the whole country that would stop voting. That logic is fail because the last election alone showed just how many people could vote that hadn't for the past few elections and in fact gave Obama a huge boost as they wanted to make their voice heard and their voice said Obama. And by your logic I should never boycott anything. Yeah me not buying their product won't matter, forget boycotts no one can make their voice heard every no matter what.

Arndur, If you would stop voting, would that make other people stop voting too?

No. It wouldn't. If you stop voting, Other people would still continue to vote like usual because your voting has no effect on their voting behavior.

Exactly, by my logic you indeed shouldn't boycott anything because it's pointles Unless we're dealing with a product that has a very, very small audience. If it makes you feel better knowing that your money isn't contributing, then by all means boycott, but if you're boycotting because you want your voice to be heard, you're wasting your time.

however You could make your voice be heard by convincing a significant amount of the potential userbase to boycott.

Originally posted by Enkindu

You are suggesting that it is pointless to vote because one vote doesn't count.

Whether or not anyone ever reads your post has ZERO bearing on the point you are trying to make.

You are presenting this as a valid viewpoint.  I'll go out on a limb and assume you realize there are other people on the planet besides yourself. If you want us to accept this viewpoint as valid, then it is reasonable to assume that other reasonable people will share this viewpoint.  If others SHARE your viewpoint, then MANY people would choose not to vote and the outcome of elections WOULD be affected.

Your assumptions are unreasonable and your logic is flawed.

Please see above.

Can't believe you are still beating this dead horse.

Originally posted by Enkindu

Arndur, don't even try.  Gameloading is completely immune to logic.

because he thinks Aristotle is....

...wait for it...

...outdated  

Originally posted by Enkindu

That election was won by legal manuvering.  Bush et al made it very apparent that they were willing to take the election by any means necessary, up to and including threatening the democracy of the United States by lodging political attacks in a legal arena.  Gore, being the wiser man, realized that the election was not worth the damage that the Bush (scumbags) were about to do to the nation.  I don't know if you recall, but we were starting to look like a small third world nation holding our first elections....

I have always thought there was an odd resemblance to the Judgment of Solomon... although there was no wise leader to make the right decision in the end.

nice point.

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Originally posted by Gameloading

1: Is your vote going to change the outcome of the election?
2: If you would stop voting. I'm not talking about anybody else besides you. would that change the outcome of the election?
3: If you answered the previous two questions, why would you still vote?

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1: possibly
2: possibly
3: not only is it possible (even if unlikely) I am not arrogant enough to believe my vote must be a deciding vote for it to matter. Each and every vote matters as it is through those votes that the government is chosen.

so, care to answer my question?

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Originally posted by nurgles
one simple question, if voting decides who the government is, which vote mattered?

As it currently stands from that link, the argument is only the votes that are greater than the votes against. This is illogical and a fallacy. All the votes for mattered equally, all votes against mattered as equally.

To say, my vote wont matter unless it is the deciding vote assumes that your vote is only worth your time if it is worth more than anyoneone elses vote in that election.

Even when you have the chance to be get this elusive reward of deciding who gets in, being the one who mattered, it is not enough for you, you would rather try for the lottery.

this type of argument supports an inflated sense of ego, "my time is only worth it if I as an individual control who sits in governmental", but also supports slothfulness, "even with the possibility of proving how great I am, I can't be bothered taking that chance"

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are you actually that arrogant and lazy?

Originally posted by Enkindu

Originally posted by Enkindu

You are suggesting that it is pointless to vote because one vote doesn't count.

Whether or not anyone ever reads your post has ZERO bearing on the point you are trying to make.

You are presenting this as a valid viewpoint.  I'll go out on a limb and assume you realize there are other people on the planet besides yourself. If you want us to accept this viewpoint as valid, then it is reasonable to assume that other reasonable people will share this viewpoint.  If others SHARE your viewpoint, then MANY people would choose not to vote and the outcome of elections WOULD be affected.

Your assumptions are unreasonable and your logic is flawed.

 

Please see above.

Can't believe you are still beating this dead horse.

You first need to work on your logic first.

It DOES matter how much influence I have.

For instance, lets use the last election as an example and say the difference between Obama and MCcain was 10 million votes.

The ONLY way I would actually impact the election is if I convinced 10 million Obama voters not to vote. As long as I convince 9.999.999 or less to not vote, I'm not changing a thing.

I'm pretty sure nowhere near 10 million Obama voters read this thread.

Use your brain before posting please.

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by Enkindu

Originally posted by Enkindu

You are suggesting that it is pointless to vote because one vote doesn't count.

Whether or not anyone ever reads your post has ZERO bearing on the point you are trying to make.

You are presenting this as a valid viewpoint.  I'll go out on a limb and assume you realize there are other people on the planet besides yourself. If you want us to accept this viewpoint as valid, then it is reasonable to assume that other reasonable people will share this viewpoint.  If others SHARE your viewpoint, then MANY people would choose not to vote and the outcome of elections WOULD be affected.

Your assumptions are unreasonable and your logic is flawed.

 

Please see above.

Can't believe you are still beating this dead horse.

You first need to work on your logic first.

It DOES matter how much influence I have.

For instance, lets use the last election as an example and say the difference between Obama and MCcain was 10 million votes.

The ONLY way I would actually impact the election is if I convinced 10 million Obama voters not to vote. As long as I convince 9.999.999 or less to not vote, I'm not changing a thing.

I'm pretty sure nowhere near 10 million Obama voters read this thread.

Use your brain before posting please.

This is the last time I will try to explain this to you:

If those 10 million people are using the same flawed logic that you are, the election might turn out very differently. 

Whether or not anyone pays attention to you.

It's amazing that nothing gets through to you.  I've tried to explain this to you three times.. several others have tried to explain this to you.  Your conclusions are wrong, and you are apparently completely inflexible.  On the bright side you certainly are entertaining.  What do you do for a living?  Hopefully not a pilot!

Originally posted by nurgles

 

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Originally posted by Gameloading

1: Is your vote going to change the outcome of the election?
2: If you would stop voting. I'm not talking about anybody else besides you. would that change the outcome of the election?
3: If you answered the previous two questions, why would you still vote?

---

 

1: possibly
2: possibly
3: not only is it possible (even if unlikely) I am not arrogant enough to believe my vote must be a deciding vote for it to matter. Each and every vote matters as it is through those votes that the government is chosen.

so, care to answer my question?

---

Originally posted by nurgles
one simple question, if voting decides who the government is, which vote mattered?

 

As it currently stands from that link, the argument is only the votes that are greater than the votes against. This is illogical and a fallacy. All the votes for mattered equally, all votes against mattered as equally.

To say, my vote wont matter unless it is the deciding vote assumes that your vote is only worth your time if it is worth more than anyoneone elses vote in that election.

Even when you have the chance to be get this elusive reward of deciding who gets in, being the one who mattered, it is not enough for you, you would rather try for the lottery.

this type of argument supports an inflated sense of ego, "my time is only worth it if I as an individual control who sits in governmental", but also supports slothfulness, "even with the possibility of proving how great I am, I can't be bothered taking that chance"

 

---

 

are you actually that arrogant and lazy?

To number 1 and 2, i simply point you to the article of the OP to see how incredibly small the possibility is of you actually affecting the outcome. You have a significantly bigger chance at winning the lottery.

To answer your 2nd question, which I actually completely missed.

Ofcourse all the votes for mattered equally. The only time your vote matters is when all the other votes have been cast and there is a dead 50 - 50 tie and you are aware of the 50 - 50 tie. Ofcourse realistically speaking, This will never, ever happen.

To call somebody who does not want to waste his time voting as arrogant is very ridiculous. It's obvious where this mentality comes from, as politicians and society in general have been trying very hard to convince people that you going to vote is very, very important. A clever thing politicians did is by convincing people their individual vote actually mattered.

If your vote does not have any effect on the election, why should you put any value in it?

Wake up as an individual and seperate yourself from the masses. The masses are convinced their vote actually matters and they will continue to vote as many times as necessary.  The more people vote, the less value each vote has and there are hundreds of millions of people who vote. Do the math and see how little value your vote really has.

Originally posted by Enkindu

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by Enkindu

Originally posted by Enkindu

You are suggesting that it is pointless to vote because one vote doesn't count.

Whether or not anyone ever reads your post has ZERO bearing on the point you are trying to make.

You are presenting this as a valid viewpoint.  I'll go out on a limb and assume you realize there are other people on the planet besides yourself. If you want us to accept this viewpoint as valid, then it is reasonable to assume that other reasonable people will share this viewpoint.  If others SHARE your viewpoint, then MANY people would choose not to vote and the outcome of elections WOULD be affected.

Your assumptions are unreasonable and your logic is flawed.

 

Please see above.

Can't believe you are still beating this dead horse.

You first need to work on your logic first.

It DOES matter how much influence I have.

For instance, lets use the last election as an example and say the difference between Obama and MCcain was 10 million votes.

The ONLY way I would actually impact the election is if I convinced 10 million Obama voters not to vote. As long as I convince 9.999.999 or less to not vote, I'm not changing a thing.

I'm pretty sure nowhere near 10 million Obama voters read this thread.

Use your brain before posting please.

 

This is the last time I will try to explain this to you:

If those 10 million people are using the same flawed logic that you are, the election might turn out very differently. 

Whether or not anyone pays attention to you.

 

It's amazing that nothing gets through to you.  I've tried to explain this to you three times.. several others have tried to explain this to you.  Your conclusions are wrong, and you are apparently completely inflexible.  On the bright side you certainly are entertaining.  What do you do for a living?  Hopefully not a pilot!

Is using logic really that hard for you?

It's this simple.

There are not 10 million people who will stop voting because you or I stop voting.

Go ahead and answer this simple question because apparently you find this very difficult to understand:

Will 10 million stop voting if you stop voting?

I'm not suggesting 10 million obama voters to stop voting, I'm suggesting you and everybody else who read this thread, which is probably 10 or 20 people give or take, to stop voting. Not 10 million obama supporters.

Even the article already destroyed your argument, it's absurd I still have to explain it to you.

The traditional reply begins with the phrase "But if everyone thought like that ... ." To which the correct rejoinder is: So what? Everyone doesn't think like that. They continue to vote by the millions and tens of millions.
 

God I can't believe I'm actally continuing this conversation.  This is like talking to a broken record.

The 10 million have NOTHING to do with you.

If they have the same attitude as you do, the results would be potentially catastrophic.

Unless you have a time machine and can travel ahead in time to see the result of an election, you have no way of knowing whether or not your vote is important.

This is the last time I'm responding to you about this issue... maybe someone else will have the patience to keep helping you.

Originally posted by Enkindu

God I can't believe I'm actally continuing this conversation.  This is like talking to a broken record.

The 10 million have NOTHING to do with you.

If they have the same attitude as you do, the results would be potentially catastrophic.

Unless you have a time machine and can travel ahead in time to see the result of an election, you have no way of knowing whether or not your vote is important.

This is the last time I'm responding to you about this issue... maybe someone else will have the patience to keep helping you.

Enikindu, these 10 million people do not have the same attitude as me, and if they do they so regardless of my voting behavior or my post here. Besides, if 10 million people would stop voting, then that doesn't mean the elections are suddenly broke. If there are 200m voters and 10m random voters would leave, that's still 190m voters left,  Just because 10 million stop voting does not mean your vote is suddenly going to change anything.

but again these are what if scenarios that are not in touch with reality.

You're making it very difficult and complicated for yourself when there really is no need to.

All you need to do is ask yourself the 3 questions I asked you earlier. Once you do, you'll probably understand.

You're right, I don't know if my vote is important for sure. However the chance your vote actually is important ie, it changes the outcome, is incredibly small. We're talking bigger chance to win the lottery 170 times in a row small. Read the article.

You have an interesting block with causality.  It was evident in your reasoning related to WW II as well.  Like I said though, I'm not going to keep trying to explain this to you.. it seems to be a waste of time.

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Originally posted by Gameloading

To number 1 and 2, i simply point you to the article of the OP to see how incredibly small the possibility is of you actually affecting the outcome. You have a significantly bigger chance at winning the lottery.

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Originally posted by Gameloading
Ofcourse realistically speaking, This will never, ever happen.

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This does not mean that people should not vote or play the lottery if they so choose. If you don't want to, that is fine but it is not an argument to not do it. It remains possible, if unlikly. You never know unless you do it. The possibility of you affecting the outcome of an election is infinitely higher if you vote than if you don't.

This is why I call you lazy, you know it is possible to achieve the outcome you want, but deny yourself the opportunity of doing so.

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Originally posted by Gameloading
Ofcourse all the votes for mattered equally. The only time your vote matters is when all the other votes have been cast and there is a dead 50 - 50 tie and you are aware of the 50 - 50 tie.

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your vote only matters if you know you have the deciding vote? All votes matter equally? So everyone should only vote after everyone else has voted and there is a tie?

This is simply illogical. You are not having an argument , you are making fallacious statements as if they have meaning. Then say we can not legitimately argue with them.

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Originally posted by Gameloading
Wake up as an individual and seperate yourself from the masses. The masses are convinced their vote actually matters and they will continue to vote as many times as necessary

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so you are better than the masses? Worth more? your vote need to be the 'deciding' vote to be worth your time?

OMG! I must be a mindless drone to believe that all people are deserve an equal voice.

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Originally posted by Gameloading
The more people vote, the less value each vote has and there are hundreds of millions of people who vote. Do the math and see how little value your vote really has.

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No matter how many people vote each vote has equal value. This is what you can never seem to acept, that when you vote you are as valuable as everyone else who voted. It is only when you don't vote you loose your say.

However, you want your vote to be the deciding vote, to be worth more.

Yep, your arrogance and self aggrandizement leads you to insult everybody that votes and who takes part in saying who forms government.

I wouldn't say it's pointless. My problem with major elections is that there really isn't any reason currently. Elections are won by spending shit-ton's of money and making false promises that people know they won't keep. Yet people vote for them anyway. To me the problem lays more with the LoTE (lesser of two evils) voters than non-voters. Voting for the lesser of two evils is not any better than not voting at all. I think the LoTE voters are selling themselves out. The way I see it is the non-voters are waiting for someone to actually vote for.  Someone who will actually do what they say or go down in flames trying.  Who will push policy that is good and fair to everyone. They are just waiting for the smack-tard Lo2E voters to quit being sheep and putting the biggest spender in office and vote on true principles not false promises. McCain wasn't going to be any better so don't give me that shit.

 When that happens I bet there will be a shit-ton of non-voters voting in record numbers. Locally I agree that there is a reason to vote. Presidential has no reason at all until people get out of the mentality of voting for whoever spends the most money. People preach about how I should go vote in Presidential elections. I tell them to shove it up their ass. I served my country if that ain't good enough screw ya. Ironically half of the ones that seem to preach "go vote or don't complain" would never dream of joining the military. Yet do I preach to them and say "serve or you should be of lesser status?" Or do I tell them they should be ashamed of themselves? Not have a say about current issues or the right to bitch and complain? No.  It is their right to not do so. Do I say they shouldn't have a say in any of our freedoms? Or that people who served have higher morals, social status than those that don't?   Seems to be what some of you people are somewhat saying to me.  

Know what's funny.  A friends mother had the nerve to preach and bitch at me every time I saw her fatass during the last election.   Guess who she voted for and what she is saying now..   Go fucking figure...

The sum difference my vote has on society isn't worth the effort of getting out of bed to capitalise on.

What a total waste of my not particularly precious time.

Actually, after taking some time to think I'd like to amend my position on this issue.

Anyone who thinks they SHOULD NOT vote is absolutely correct.

If you are dumb enough to believe that voting is a waste of time, then we are better off without your input . 

By all means, stay home and let the more intelligent people make your decisions for you!

Originally posted by nurgles

 

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Originally posted by Gameloading

To number 1 and 2, i simply point you to the article of the OP to see how incredibly small the possibility is of you actually affecting the outcome. You have a significantly bigger chance at winning the lottery.

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Originally posted by Gameloading
Ofcourse realistically speaking, This will never, ever happen.

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you argue that if something is possible but unlikely, that it will never 'realistically' happen.

 

This does not mean that people should not vote or play the lottery if they so choose. If you don't want to, that is fine but it is not an argument to not do it. It remains possible, if unlikly. You never know unless you do it. The possibility of you affecting the outcome of an election is infinitely higher if you vote than if you don't.

This is why I call you lazy, you know it is possible to achieve the outcome you want, but deny yourself the opportunity of doing so.

Ofcourse it is a perfect valid argument to not do it when the chance of you winning the lottery 170 times in a row is bigger than you affecting the outcome of the election.

To call it lazy is downright retarded when the possibility is so incredibly small. Lets apply your way of thinking to other things, do you also say goodbye to your family and arrange your funeral everytime you leave your house? Because the possibility of you dying when you go out of your house are bigger than you affecting the election.

Do you also make sure you wear rubber gloves everytime you touch a fence because there is a small possibility that lightning strikes the fence and kills you?

Never touch anybody and wear a rubber suit because they might have a disease

No. Ofcourse you don't, because the chance of you dying to any of those causes is so small that it's not worth the effort. Get it now?

 

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Originally posted by Gameloading
Ofcourse all the votes for mattered equally. The only time your vote makes a difference is when all the other votes have been cast and there is a dead 50 - 50 tie and you are aware of the 50 - 50 tie.

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your vote only matters if you know you have the deciding vote? All votes matter equally? So everyone should only vote after everyone else has voted and there is a tie?

This is simply illogical. You are not having an argument , you are making fallacious statements as if they have meaning. Then say we can not legitimately argue with them.

I used a poor wording there. I'll fix the quote for you.

 

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Originally posted by Gameloading
Wake up as an individual and seperate yourself from the masses. The masses are convinced their vote actually matters and they will continue to vote as many times as necessary

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so you are better than the masses? Worth more? your vote need to be the 'deciding' vote to be worth your time?

OMG! I must be a mindless drone to believe that all people are deserve an equal voice.
 

Actually I never said that, don't spin my words around. What I'm saying is that unlike the masses, I am aware that my vote doesn't change anything

 

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Originally posted by Gameloading
The more people vote, the less value each vote has and there are hundreds of millions of people who vote. Do the math and see how little value your vote really has.

---

 

No matter how many people vote each vote has equal value. This is what you can never seem to acept, that when you vote you are as valuable as everyone else who voted. It is only when you don't vote you loose your say.

However, you want your vote to be the deciding vote, to be worth more.

Yep, your arrogance and self aggrandizement leads you to insult everybody that votes and who takes part in saying who forms government.

This is actually quite amazing. If you want your efforts to actually be rewarded, you are arrogant. If you chose to not waste your time because you understand your vote is not changing anything, you are arrogant. It all traces back to a strong delusion of how much your vote is actually worth. You have convinced yourself that your vote has a realistic big possibility of changing the outcome. You have convinced yourself politicians actually pay attention to your individual vote. this is a delusion. To call anybody who choses not to vote because they realise their vote has close to zero affect on the outcome is foolish.

 

Originally posted by Enkindu

Actually, after taking some time to think I'd like to amend my position on this issue.

 

Anyone who thinks they SHOULD NOT vote is absolutely correct.

 

If you are dumb enough to believe that voting is a waste of time, then we are better off without your input . 

 

By all means, stay home and let the more intelligent people make your decisions for you!

You mean intelligent people like you, who think 10 million obama voters would stop voting the momentf you stop voting?

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by Enkindu

Actually, after taking some time to think I'd like to amend my position on this issue.

 

Anyone who thinks they SHOULD NOT vote is absolutely correct.

 

If you are dumb enough to believe that voting is a waste of time, then we are better off without your input . 

 

By all means, stay home and let the more intelligent people make your decisions for you!

You mean intelligent people like you, who think 10 million obama voters would stop voting the momentf you stop voting?

Whatever you wish to believe einstein!
 

Just be true to yourself and don't waste your time in the voting booth!