Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by Enkindu

Dynamo, I can't imagine what kind of human excrement would post a picture making fun of a handicapped kid.

May Karma deliver to you what you so desperately deserve, sooner rather than later.

EDIT- and also you should apologize to your fellow Texans on this board.  Some of them complain that they have an undeserved bad reputation, and you have managed to publicly and singlehanded drop the apparent IQ of the entire state by several points.

 

I think you are missing his message with what he posted Enk.   I think he is saying is, "Do you think this girl understands the concept of God?"   If she knows not of God how can she ever hope to gain entrance into heaven if she knows nothing of God or heaven for that matter.    Since many people are like her and cannot be taught the concept of God and heaven are they doomed to hell?    According to many Christians only those that can accept Christ into their heart can ever hope to gain entrance into the kingdom of heaven.

Do not say that Christian's have a way with dealing with this...because all they say is God works in his own way and he will deal with this kind of Child in his own way, because that is a cop out.    Think of the US indeginous peoples before the europeans came to the US.   They knew nothing of God.   They had never heard of him.   Did all those people before the coming of Europeans to America that died just not go to heaven?

However teala for the first century, the Church of Alexandria (before the catholocs took over) believed EVERYONE was saved by God, and whether they "knew God" in their lives or not had no bearing on their eventual reconciliation to God.

Pretty much all of the founding fathers believd in this, be they Masons, Deists, Unitarians, and my school -- trinitarian universalists.

Christianity always had an answer for this, only those who preach a God of wrath and hate have always had more ears than those of us who preach a God of love and reconciliation.

More people WANT God to be an evil bastard. I believe they are wrong, and I believe Jesus and Paul both said so.

Also, Heaven is not necessarily a place you "go to." The Kingdom of heaven is supposed to be HERE now with us and we as believers and nonbelievers alike are supposed to be making it. Then Christ returns, and God in Christ raises all the dead and perfects them, including all the sick children and all live forever reconciled in a world of unimaginable glory -- one that WE helped create. You and I both help every time we show love to anyone else.

OBVIOUSLY, the world is in sick sad shape so he is not coming any time soon.

We have much work to do, all of us.

Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by Enkindu

Originally posted by Arndur

Originally posted by Enkindu

Originally posted by Arndur

John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the light. No one comes to the Farther except through me.

 

Arndur, I dunno why but I have always assumed that Jesus never said this and that it was introduced much later by lesser men.

 

Well I believe John is one of the text that we can find some of the oldest maunscrpits for it has been accurate. Now I don't if it includes 14:6 but this is a cornerstone of Christanity so it would be extremely tough to prove it was added.

People can write whatever they want to in books.
 

I look at it from a different angle:

Why would a man who taught compassion, love, understanding, and acceptance then turn around and say, "Oh and by the way if you don't worship me you're gonna fry?"  Does that make logical sense to you?  Sounds more to me like a scare tactic introduced later by those that wanted to build power and control into their new religion.  I get VERY skeptical whenever someone pulls out the "one true god" line.

 

How many Gods do you think there are?

What evidence do you have that these lines were added later other than your own desire? How closely have you actually checked out the manuscript evidence and what better evidence have you seen that proves the case you are making?

I think there is only one god, which is the entire reason that I reject any religion that doesn't offer salvation to every race, creed, and cultural background as a matter of course.

I could read any sacred manuscript with my own eyes and it would not change the fact that there is no way to know who wrote it and why.

What do you think P.T. Barnum would have to say about this?

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by Enkindu

Dynamo, I can't imagine what kind of human excrement would post a picture making fun of a handicapped kid.

May Karma deliver to you what you so desperately deserve, sooner rather than later.

EDIT- and also you should apologize to your fellow Texans on this board.  Some of them complain that they have an undeserved bad reputation, and you have managed to publicly and singlehanded drop the apparent IQ of the entire state by several points.

 

I think you are missing his message with what he posted Enk.   I think he is saying is, "Do you think this girl understands the concept of God?"   If she knows not of God how can she ever hope to gain entrance into heaven if she knows nothing of God or heaven for that matter.    Since many people are like her and cannot be taught the concept of God and heaven are they doomed to hell?    According to many Christians only those that can accept Christ into their heart can ever hope to gain entrance into the kingdom of heaven.

Do not say that Christian's have a way with dealing with this...because all they say is God works in his own way and he will deal with this kind of Child in his own way, because that is a cop out.    Think of the US indeginous peoples before the europeans came to the US.   They knew nothing of God.   They had never heard of him.   Did all those people before the coming of Europeans to America that died just not go to heaven?

Teala I think you are giving Dynamo WAAAAY too much credit.  By his own admission he was trolling.  In spite of the fact that he's an obvious troll, he needed to be called out.  Some things are just over the line.

As far as the rest of your post, we agree.  The vast majority of the Christians I know personally believe your soul is doomed if you do not accept Christ as your personal savior.

I prefer open-source religion.

Yoism is pretty cool, so is Zen, but I find Science to be a little more interesting because it has more dedicated members and a wider range of opinion.

I think there is only one god, which is the entire reason that I reject any religion that doesn't offer salvation to every race, creed, and cultural background as a matter of course.

That's Christianity. Jesus died for all sin. He reconciled the entire world to God. It's a done deal.

Originally posted by Fishermage

I think there is only one god, which is the entire reason that I reject any religion that doesn't offer salvation to every race, creed, and cultural background as a matter of course.

That's Christianity. Jesus died for all sin. He reconciled the entire world to God. It's a done deal.

For everyone? Of all faiths? Including athiests? With no specific requirements? With no pressure to accept a specific system of beliefs?

If this is true, then I absolutely support your brand of Christianity.

Originally posted by Enkindu

Originally posted by Fishermage

I think there is only one god, which is the entire reason that I reject any religion that doesn't offer salvation to every race, creed, and cultural background as a matter of course.

That's Christianity. Jesus died for all sin. He reconciled the entire world to God. It's a done deal.

 

For everyone? Of all faiths? Including athiests? With no specific requirements? With no pressure to accept a specific system of beliefs?

 

If this is true, then I absolutely support your brand of Christianity.

It really Depends on the Person you ask.. I honestly got two Cathlic Priests argueing like hell with that Exact statment.. BOTH were cathlic... Think they would have that figured out.. Guess not. ;p

It was The greatest argument I have ever witnessed... God I wish Ida had a camra.

Originally posted by Enkindu

Originally posted by Fishermage

I think there is only one god, which is the entire reason that I reject any religion that doesn't offer salvation to every race, creed, and cultural background as a matter of course.

That's Christianity. Jesus died for all sin. He reconciled the entire world to God. It's a done deal.

 

For everyone? Of all faiths? Including athiests? With no specific requirements? With no pressure to accept a specific system of beliefs?

 

If this is true, then I absolutely support your brand of Christianity.

Ummm now many times do I have to repeat myself. yes of course. jesus on the cross dying. Looks down at His murderers. Turns up to God says "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

If Christ intercedes and saves His own murderers you think he has a problem with Richard dawkins and Christopher Hitchens???

just read the Bible. It's in there, over and over and over again.

Originally posted by Ekibiogami

Originally posted by Enkindu

Originally posted by Fishermage

I think there is only one god, which is the entire reason that I reject any religion that doesn't offer salvation to every race, creed, and cultural background as a matter of course.

That's Christianity. Jesus died for all sin. He reconciled the entire world to God. It's a done deal.

 

For everyone? Of all faiths? Including athiests? With no specific requirements? With no pressure to accept a specific system of beliefs?

 

If this is true, then I absolutely support your brand of Christianity.

 

It really Depends on the Person you ask.. I honestly got two Cathlic Priests argueing like hell with that Exact statment.. BOTH were cathlic... Think they would have that figured out.. Guess not. ;p

It was The greatest argument I have ever witnessed... God I wish Ida had a camra.

The BIble is full of paradoxes for us to struggle over -- where you land on them, which side you take says more about the beleiver than it says about God.

Originally posted by Fishermage 

Ummm now many times do I have to repeat myself. yes of course. jesus on the cross dying. Looks down at His murderers. Turns up to God says "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

If Christ intercedes and saves His own murderers you think he has a problem with Richard dawkins and Christopher Hitchens???

just read the Bible. It's in there, over and over and over again.

Awesome.

In that case organized religion is absolutely unnecessary.  We can stop passing along cultural mythology to our children and they won't end up fighting holy wars over it.

Originally posted by Enkindu

Originally posted by Fishermage 

Ummm now many times do I have to repeat myself. yes of course. jesus on the cross dying. Looks down at His murderers. Turns up to God says "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

If Christ intercedes and saves His own murderers you think he has a problem with Richard dawkins and Christopher Hitchens???

just read the Bible. It's in there, over and over and over again.

 

Awesome.

In that case organized religion is absolutely unnecessary.  We can stop passing along cultural mythology to our children and they won't end up fighting holy wars over it.

Christianity is not an organized religion. It is arguably the least organized religion on earth. No one ever fought a war over MY view of Christianity. Well, we did and it was called the Revolutionary War. That was the only one I can think of.

Originally posted by Fishermage 

Christianity is not an organized religion. It is arguably the least organized religion on earth. No one ever fought a war over MY view of Christianity. Well, we did and it was called the Revolutionary War. That was the only one I can think of.

Groovy.  Based on my thread title and this statement we are no longer in conflict!

: )

Originally posted by Enkindu

Originally posted by Fishermage 

Christianity is not an organized religion. It is arguably the least organized religion on earth. No one ever fought a war over MY view of Christianity. Well, we did and it was called the Revolutionary War. That was the only one I can think of.

 

Groovy.  Based on my thread title and this statement we are no longer in conflict!

 

: )

I didn't think we ever were -- which has been my point all along .

Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by Enkindu

Originally posted by Fishermage 

Christianity is not an organized religion. It is arguably the least organized religion on earth. No one ever fought a war over MY view of Christianity. Well, we did and it was called the Revolutionary War. That was the only one I can think of.

 

Groovy.  Based on my thread title and this statement we are no longer in conflict!

 

: )

 

I didn't think we ever were -- which has been my point all along .

Me neither.  Sure is fun to have a good argument though.
 

p.s. that is the most disturbing smiley I've ever seen : )

Originally posted by Enkindu

Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by Enkindu

Originally posted by Fishermage 

Christianity is not an organized religion. It is arguably the least organized religion on earth. No one ever fought a war over MY view of Christianity. Well, we did and it was called the Revolutionary War. That was the only one I can think of.

 

Groovy.  Based on my thread title and this statement we are no longer in conflict!

 

: )

 

I didn't think we ever were -- which has been my point all along .

Me neither.  Sure is fun to have a good argument though.
 

 

p.s. that is the most disturbing smiley I've ever seen : )

LOL, yes but since it is reminiscent of Don Quixote, I threw it down.

You know in 1961 the Unitarians and the Universalists came to an accord and formed the Unitarian Universalist Association. This happened because BOTH Churches, even though they were responsible for the Spirit of America, became too small in the wake of the Hell Raisers who serve their Father, the Devil -- the neo-Pharrisees, taking over much of the country.

As I said, people would much rather the people they disagree with to burn in Hell forever in ever than forgive, love, and reconcile.

They would rather be in some exclusive club and live in fear than belong to the race of man and live in Joy and love.

This just proves the Bible right -- all men are sinners and worthy of condemnation -- BUT, God's response to that is LOVE, not eternal damnation.

The wages of sin is DEATH. We will all die. You and I WILL pay that price. However, all shall be raised as Christ was raised. He was the "first fruits" in God's ultimate plan that includes the entire cosmos.

It does seem that every time you fell short of your own perfection, you WILL be tested and need to face these things, but ultimately, in God's way and time, all shall be drawn into His Bosom. The Mother Hen shall gather her chicks.

John says God is love (1 John 4:8)

Here is Paul's definition and description of love:

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres." (1 Corinthians 13).

Now, you and I fall short of that all the time -- as do all men. However, God = love, and He doesn't. Does this sound like a dude that would send unbelieving scum to burn forever and ever?

These people who preach eternal damnation are preaching a God who is the very OPPOSITE of those words...what is the OPPOSITE of God? Jesus said, "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies." (John 8:44).

It is time for believers to stop believing the lies they were told and read the Bible with, as you advocated, Reason and Compassion.

However, in the spirit of God's love, we must treat them with compassion in their error and grant them the right to be wrong. I have to fight for their right to mistakenly call me "heretic," just as their theological ancestors called Lord Jesus names. let them  throw their BIble quotes taht say the opposite, I've got my own quotes.

Again, God leaves us this freedom to choose how we will read the Word and settle the Paradox of Grace and damnation. How we choose says a great deal about us, but nothing about God, whose character is clearly explained. The rest is simple, if you CHOOSE love.

Romans 1:18-21    The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them.  For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has

been made, so that men are without excuse.  For although they knew God, the neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Romans was written by Paul, whom you just quoted in a previous verse.  I would be interested to know what your is opinion of these verses.

Originally posted by Wushi75

Romans 1:18-21    The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them.  For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has

been made, so that men are without excuse.  For although they knew God, the neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

 

Romans was written by Paul, whom you just quoted in a previous verse.  I would be interested to know what your is opinion of these verses.

It means all men DESERVE condemnation, and need God to save them. We can not save ourselves by our own efforts, and only by the Grace of God are we saved. Pretty much what I have been saying all along :)

I find it quite comical that an all powerful, perfect God would view something as worship so highly.

"Truth is a pathless land and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect." (Krishnamurti)

Originally posted by xanphia

I find it quite comical that an all powerful, perfect God would view something as worship so highly.

"Truth is a pathless land and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect." (Krishnamurti)

Worship isn't for God, it's for us. It is the natural response top the Grace and Joy of the Lord. It doesn't do ANYTHING for God. Again that's just a lie you've been taught by the Pharasees.

Agape is what we are speaking of -- overflowing, endless, boundless love. Not subservience in any self deprecating way, but in a personally ennobling way. Beyond Eros beyond Philia, but containing both, and then some. If you've ever been head over heels in love, that's the spark that reaches for that state of being.

Oh and Krishnamurti rocks. I've read and loved pretty much everything he has ever written and we had a wonderful session on him in this discussion group I facilitate.

There's a man who understood Jesus better than most Christians.

Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by Arndur

John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the light. No one comes to the Farther except through me.

It is pretty clear. Though my youth pastor has talked about things like your desert island scenario before talking about the tribes through out South America. Some have come to readliy accpect Christanity because it matches up with their own beliefs. They have said they have been worshiping the same God just calling him the wrong name. He said maybe they are part of the religion but its immposble for us to know though that verse does seem very black and white.

 Okay, I'm hanging on a ledge about to fall to my death. Suddenly, Batman comes along. He reaches for me, grabs my wrist, and saves me. he is the ONLY one who could have saved me, but I have no idea he is Bruce Wayne.

No one saved me but Bruce Wayne, But I see Him as Batman because that is how he revealed himself to me.

just because Jesus saves does not mean necessarily that everyone much know Him as Jesus in life. None know what the deal actually is, and the Bible clearly says in some places ALL are saved, and in other places that not everyone is. Why CHOOSE the darker vision?

I see it as a biblical paradox that god will work out :)

The problem with that analogy, Fisher, is that Batman is a fictional character, Jesus Christ is not.

Also, I have a question for you.  As someone who thinks all of humanity is saved with not so much as even an acknowledgement that Christ died for them personally, does that mean that you believe that Adolf Hitler is in heaven right now?  Someone who killed millions of your own people.  Is that someone that God joyfully welcomes into His kingdom?