This interchange started in another thread and I was accused of derailing when we started discussing it.  So here it is in a new thread:

Originally posted by Fishermage:

" However, you don't know this any more than they do. What makes you so sure you are right about this invisible omnipotent being YOU believe in and they are wrong?"

Actually something that got me kicked out of sunday school when I was a kid.

The Christians say you need to accept Christ to be saved- but now and thoughout history there have been millions for whom Christ is unknown and unknowable through no fault of their own. Also there are millions for whom Christ is an obscure figure (the same way that Mohammed would be an obscure figure to a Christian in Kansas).

I said that if people NEED to know Christ to be saved, and if God has made the world so that some will NEVER know of Christ, then God is either sadistic or the Christians are WRONG. I prefer to believe the latter.

Over the years I have expanded this view to encompass ALL cultural/ historical "requirements" for interacting with the divine. What I use now I call the "desert island" test for religion: If a child can be dropped on a desert island with NO contact with any other human and still be considered a full member of a religious faith with all rights and privileges, then I consider that religion to be valid. No compassionate god would put a soul on the planet without everything they need to find salvation built in.

I know organized religions bring many people powerful experiences of fellowship... but they HAVE always and WILL always eventually lead to violent conflict because they each present DIFFERENT and CONFLICTING views that are held to be both sacred and universal. This means that every religion ends up trying to impose itself on others, and this inevitably leads to conflict.. and often violence. It is unavoidable. Because I believe in compassion and love above all else, I stand against all religion.
 

Originally posted by Enkindu

Originally posted by sniperg

If memory serves, the people that didn't know Christ in their lifetime will be judged much less harsh than a believer. At least in the Christian Orthodox dogma.

So what about the child that grows up next door to a Christian church but is unlucky enough to have muslim or jewish or atheist parents?

You can't have it both ways.. either accepting Christ is a requirement for salvation or it is not. Which is it?

Same case as the one that I've mentioned. The child didn't know Christ to accept him hence it is possible to get salvation through actions. The burden is on the child's parents rather on the child.

Originally posted by sniperg

 

So what about the child that grows up next door to a Christian church but is unlucky enough to have muslim or jewish or atheist parents?
You can't have it both ways.. either accepting Christ is a requirement for salvation or it is not. Which is it?

 Same case as the one that I've mentioned. The child didn't know Christ to accept him hence it is possible to get salvation through actions. The burden is on the child's parents rather on the child.

By this logic, every child that is brought up in another faith has access to salvation if they lead a good life.  Also any child brought up with NO religion has access to salvation.

The parents are just as blameless, because THEY were taught as children as well.

So the end result is the same thing that I believe: Religion is irrelevant if you lead a good life!  And if religion is irrelevant, WHY teach children to be muslim/ christian/ jewish/ whatever if it is going to perpetuate conflict??

Originally posted by Enkindu

Originally posted by sniperg

 

 

So what about the child that grows up next door to a Christian church but is unlucky enough to have muslim or jewish or atheist parents?
You can't have it both ways.. either accepting Christ is a requirement for salvation or it is not. Which is it?

 

 Same case as the one that I've mentioned. The child didn't know Christ to accept him hence it is possible to get salvation through actions. The burden is on the child's parents rather on the child.

 

By this logic, every child that is brought up in another faith has access to salvation if they lead a good life.  Also any child brought up with NO religion has access to salvation.

The parents are just as blameless, because THEY were taught as children as well.

 

So the end result is the same thing that I believe: Religion is irrelevant if you lead a good life!  And if religion is irrelevant, WHY teach children to be muslim/ christian/ jewish/ whatever if it is going to perpetuate conflict??

It is a valid argument for sure but you forget to take something into account.

Religion is a set of rules that serve as exercise to reach full completion with the divine. Basically they are acts that brings you closer to god. Theoritically speaking a kid or an adult of an opposite religion or an atheist will reach salvation but not achieve fullfillment.

So yes what you say is true only 50%, religion is irrelevant if you lead a good earthly life. But it gets complicated when you accept the existence of abstract concepts such as soul and a god.

Originally posted by sniperg

It is a valid argument for sure but you forget to take something into account.

Religion is a set of rules that serve as exercise to reach full completion with the divine. Basically they are acts that brings you closer to god. Theoritically speaking a kid or an adult of an opposite religion or an atheist will reach salvation but not achieve fullfillment.

So yes what you say is true only 50%, religion is irrelevant if you lead a good earthly life. But it gets complicated when you accept the existence of abstract concepts such as soul and a god.

Quite honestly I'd say some of the most fulfilled and spiritual people I know are the least religious.

The times in my life that I've experienced what I would call the "grace of God" had nothing to do with religion.  In each case I was in a pristine natural environment, not in a church.

On the other hand. some of the most judgemental and petty people I know are also the most devoutly religious.

To try and explain why you don't believe in a religion is just giving it validity.

You don't sit down with the homeless man and have a serious well-researched and cited discussion about how aliens aren't reading his brainwaves and that the earth probably won't end in 2012, so why bother with these people.  As far as I'm concerned, the homeless guy talking to his invisible friend on the street suffers from the same mental illness as those telepathically communicating with whoever their invisible man in the sky is.

Why one is accepted and the other isn't I'll never know.

Originally posted by Sabiancym

To try and explain why you don't believe in a religion is just giving it validity.

 

You don't sit down with the homeless man and have a serious well-researched and cited discussion about how aliens aren't reading his brainwaves and that the earth probably won't end in 2012, so why bother with these people.  As far as I'm concerned, the homeless guy talking to his invisible friend on the street suffers from the same mental illness as those telepathically communicating with whoever their invisible man in the sky is.

 

Why one is accepted and the other isn't I'll never know.

Because the vast majority of the people on the planet claim membership in one organized religion or another, and because I honestly believe organized religion represents one of the greatest dangers to mankind, I will always seek a dialogue even if it yields nothing more than greater understanding.

I do agree that religion has many characteristics of mass delusion but there is a strong cultural tradition involved as well and many people draw great strength from their faith.  I hope that one day we can all share that strength without the superstition and cultural baggage that always leads to violence.

Originally posted by Sabiancym

To try and explain why you don't believe in a religion is just giving it validity.

 

You don't sit down with the homeless man and have a serious well-researched and cited discussion about how aliens aren't reading his brainwaves and that the earth probably won't end in 2012, so why bother with these people.  As far as I'm concerned, the homeless guy talking to his invisible friend on the street suffers from the same mental illness as those telepathically communicating with whoever their invisible man in the sky is.

 

Why one is accepted and the other isn't I'll never know.

For the same reason a scientist sits down and explains to you in laymans terms how your pc or your car works.

If he didn't explain it to you, you would believe that just because you pushed a button your PC turns on.

Some people believe in an invisible man, others in aliens and yet others believe in science. Intersting don't you think?

Originally posted by Enkindu

Originally posted by sniperg

It is a valid argument for sure but you forget to take something into account.

Religion is a set of rules that serve as exercise to reach full completion with the divine. Basically they are acts that brings you closer to god. Theoritically speaking a kid or an adult of an opposite religion or an atheist will reach salvation but not achieve fullfillment.

So yes what you say is true only 50%, religion is irrelevant if you lead a good earthly life. But it gets complicated when you accept the existence of abstract concepts such as soul and a god.

 

Quite honestly I'd say some of the most fulfilled and spiritual people I know are the least religious.

The times in my life that I've experienced what I would call the "grace of God" had nothing to do with religion.  In each case I was in a pristine natural environment, not in a church.

On the other hand. some of the most judgemental and petty people I know are also the most devoutly religious.

The same things I have seen also  in reverse.

The way I see it religion is a tool, nothing more and nothing less. And as any tool, its essence relies on the wielder.

I'll just leave this here.

Originally posted by sniperg

Originally posted by Sabiancym

To try and explain why you don't believe in a religion is just giving it validity.

 

You don't sit down with the homeless man and have a serious well-researched and cited discussion about how aliens aren't reading his brainwaves and that the earth probably won't end in 2012, so why bother with these people.  As far as I'm concerned, the homeless guy talking to his invisible friend on the street suffers from the same mental illness as those telepathically communicating with whoever their invisible man in the sky is.

 

Why one is accepted and the other isn't I'll never know.

For the same reason a scientist sits down and explains to you in laymans terms how your pc or your car works.

If he didn't explain it to you, you would believe that just because you pushed a button your PC turns on.

Some people believe in an invisible man, others in aliens and yet others believe in science. Intersting don't you think?

Yes, once.  What do you do when the person keeps claiming it's magic no matter how much proof you show them otherwise.  All because they have been conditioned to reject reality and substitute their own (Mythbusters ftw.)

That is why I believe it is morally wrong to teach religion to anyone under the age of 18.

Dynamo, I can't imagine what kind of human excrement would post a picture making fun of a handicapped kid.

May Karma deliver to you what you so desperately deserve, sooner rather than later.

EDIT- and also you should apologize to your fellow Texans on this board.  Some of them complain that they have an undeserved bad reputation, and you have managed to publicly and singlehanded drop the apparent IQ of the entire state by several points.

Originally posted by Sabiancym

Originally posted by sniperg

Originally posted by Sabiancym

To try and explain why you don't believe in a religion is just giving it validity.

 

You don't sit down with the homeless man and have a serious well-researched and cited discussion about how aliens aren't reading his brainwaves and that the earth probably won't end in 2012, so why bother with these people.  As far as I'm concerned, the homeless guy talking to his invisible friend on the street suffers from the same mental illness as those telepathically communicating with whoever their invisible man in the sky is.

 

Why one is accepted and the other isn't I'll never know.

For the same reason a scientist sits down and explains to you in laymans terms how your pc or your car works.

If he didn't explain it to you, you would believe that just because you pushed a button your PC turns on.

Some people believe in an invisible man, others in aliens and yet others believe in science. Intersting don't you think?

 

 

Yes, once.  What do you do when the person keeps claiming it's magic no matter how much proof you show them otherwise.  All because they have been conditioned to reject reality and substitute their own (Mythbusters ftw.)

 

That is why I believe it is morally wrong to teach religion to anyone under the age of 18.

Well if you bring irrefutable proof about the validity of something, it's the other person responsibility to be mature about it and process it.

I don't believe the is inherently anything wrong about teaching religion or science to kids. The problem is that people are not being taught to have an open mind and being encouraged to learn things. Hence both of these things end up being a grand delusions.

Sabian it's funny you say that- I've always said my kids can join any organized religion they want..... as soon as they turn 18 : )

Originally posted by Enkindu

Dynamo, I can't imagine what kind of human excrement would post a picture making fun of a handicapped kid.

May Karma deliver to you what you so desperately deserve, sooner rather than later.

EDIT- and also you should apologize to your fellow Texans on this board.  Some of them complain that they have an undeserved bad reputation, and you have managed to publicly and singlehanded drop the apparent IQ of the entire state by several points.

My troll attempt was successful!

Troll attempt? You posted a picture mocking a young syndromic girl.  Your only success was revealing to everyone here that you are ignorant trash.

EDIT- OH YEAH... and you added one more data point supporting the theory that Texas is full of dumbasses.

Originally posted by Enkindu

Troll attempt? You posted a picture mocking a young syndromic girl.  Your only success was revealing to everyone here that you are ignorant trash.

Originally posted by Enkindu

This interchange started in another thread and I was accused of derailing when we started discussing it.  So here it is in a new thread:

Originally posted by Fishermage:

" However, you don't know this any more than they do. What makes you so sure you are right about this invisible omnipotent being YOU believe in and they are wrong?"

 

Actually something that got me kicked out of sunday school when I was a kid.

The Christians say you need to accept Christ to be saved- but now and thoughout history there have been millions for whom Christ is unknown and unknowable through no fault of their own. Also there are millions for whom Christ is an obscure figure (the same way that Mohammed would be an obscure figure to a Christian in Kansas).

I said that if people NEED to know Christ to be saved, and if God has made the world so that some will NEVER know of Christ, then God is either sadistic or the Christians are WRONG. I prefer to believe the latter.

 

Over the years I have expanded this view to encompass ALL cultural/ historical "requirements" for interacting with the divine. What I use now I call the "desert island" test for religion: If a child can be dropped on a desert island with NO contact with any other human and still be considered a full member of a religious faith with all rights and privileges, then I consider that religion to be valid. No compassionate god would put a soul on the planet without everything they need to find salvation built in.

 

I know organized religions bring many people powerful experiences of fellowship... but they HAVE always and WILL always eventually lead to violent conflict because they each present DIFFERENT and CONFLICTING views that are held to be both sacred and universal. This means that every religion ends up trying to impose itself on others, and this inevitably leads to conflict.. and often violence. It is unavoidable. Because I believe in compassion and love above all else, I stand against all religion.
 

First of all, I'm a Universalist (for the most part, it's a bit more compliacted than that what I believe gut shorthand will have to do), and I believe everyone is saved, and I am a Christian, and Universalism was the teaching of the Church of Alexandria until the 5th century.

However, how do YOU know you are right and others are wrong? When did God tell you these things?

Originally posted by sniperg

Originally posted by Enkindu

Originally posted by sniperg

If memory serves, the people that didn't know Christ in their lifetime will be judged much less harsh than a believer. At least in the Christian Orthodox dogma.

So what about the child that grows up next door to a Christian church but is unlucky enough to have muslim or jewish or atheist parents?

You can't have it both ways.. either accepting Christ is a requirement for salvation or it is not. Which is it?

 

Same case as the one that I've mentioned. The child didn't know Christ to accept him hence it is possible to get salvation through actions. The burden is on the child's parents rather on the child.

Also views on salvation differ from denomination to denomination. That's the beauty of Christianity -- it isn't organized at all, no matter how many people try and force it to be.

Plus why can't it be both ways? I would say that is God's choice, not Endiku's.

Originally posted by Enkindu

Originally posted by sniperg

It is a valid argument for sure but you forget to take something into account.

Religion is a set of rules that serve as exercise to reach full completion with the divine. Basically they are acts that brings you closer to god. Theoritically speaking a kid or an adult of an opposite religion or an atheist will reach salvation but not achieve fullfillment.

So yes what you say is true only 50%, religion is irrelevant if you lead a good earthly life. But it gets complicated when you accept the existence of abstract concepts such as soul and a god.

 

Quite honestly I'd say some of the most fulfilled and spiritual people I know are the least religious.

The times in my life that I've experienced what I would call the "grace of God" had nothing to do with religion.  In each case I was in a pristine natural environment, not in a church.

On the other hand. some of the most judgemental and petty people I know are also the most devoutly religious.

You sound pretty judgmental here.