Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by Axehilt

Sandbox vs. Themepark is a measure of how much player freedom exists in a game.  Games will be somewhere on the linear scale between Total Freedom, Sandbox, Themepark, and Linear.  Every game is at a unique point along this scale.  Although the far ends of the scale aren't games (games are structured activities

But the scale encapsulates all player choice in the game, not just character progression.

How does open ended character progression not equal total freedom?

Character progression is everything in a MMO. Everything you do progresses you in some way.

You can't single out certain features like Town building, owning a house or player factions as set in stone features.

If we did then lotro would be a sandbox since it has housing.

 Let make this thread actually interesting and list the features that are sandbox/open ended only. That list will be very small. Hell even the two main ones Skill system and no endgame can be disputed. 

 

Er, Total Freedom is not a game.  Activities with total freedom are things like Real Life, or programming languages, or Photoshop. 

Sandbox games don't offer total freedom.  If you list every single thing you can do in a sandbox game, I can name a bunch more that you can't do -- due to the game's constraints.  Can you paint a picture in photoshop and upload it?  Can you fly/swim/climb?  Can you create new weapon types that don't yet exist in the game world?  Can you create items which don't even fit in the game world (laser pistols in medieval times)?

Even with the last example being ridiculous, these are all constraints on what you can/can't do.  You don't have total freedom in a sandbox.  You're just further down the scale towards freedom when compared with themepark games (which themselves are pretty far towards freedom compared to other game genres.)

But even if you zoom in so that only MMORPGs exist on the line, every MMORPG is going to be slightly different in exactly how much freedom you have. The terms sandbox and themepark are merely quick and vague reference points for general sections of the scale.

Alright I give, Theres no difference between a sandbox and themepark. Its all made up shit man.

We made up the "themepark" term for one reason. We hate WoW. It's a Pos and we didn't want it to be associated with our games. It sucks so we made up the themepark.

Its the same with "sandbox" another way to get our games away from that abomination that made every mmo since it release suck ass and invite every Fps and Console newb to our genre.

Theres no open ended and no linear its all bullshit just so we arent reminded of the stink that is WoW.

Think about it we call "themeparks" linear due to quest and zone progression when in reality we dont have to do any quests at all and can actually pick the zones we want to go through.

We talk shit about limited class systems yet its not really limited fuck even in that Pos WoW you could make unique builds, if I don't care about min maxing I could make like 30 shaman builds right now.

All mmos have quests, raids, dungeons and some type of "Goal"

Its all bullshit man, sorry to tell you.

Seriously, People talk of "open worlds" fucking WoW has one of those dude, its not cut up into loading screens, its seemless, it has areas you can explore (didnt vanilla wow have like 400 caves and ruins to explore?)

So enough already with the sub genre bullshit.

These are MMORPGs nothing more, nothing less.

Im sorry guys someone had to do it. I was getting tired of the bullshit.

Originally posted by tro44_1

1) What defines a Sandbox MMORPG from the other subgenre MMO?

2) Can there be Classes in Sandbox? Cause I remember Elder Scroll:4 having classes at the start of the game.

3) How Big does the world have to be inorder to stay balanced, but stay tuned to being Sandbox? (compare it to something in another game so we get a idea)

4) Do All Sandbox have to have no Auto Attack, and no Targeting, like Darkfall and Mortal Online, in order for it to be considered a Sandbox MMORPG?

5)Sand Box mmos cant have Factions?

6) Does everything have to be Guild vs Guild oriented?

7) In well done Sandbox MMORPG (I dont know a exmple), How does the game Balance out Guild combat, so lower populated Guild still have fun compared to High Populated Guilds?

8) Does Sandbox allways have to have Friendly Fire?

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If I think of any other questions, Iall try to add them. Thanks

All of the questions miss the point about sandbox games. A sandbox game is where the players are the content.

Originally posted by metalhead980

Alright I give, Theres no difference between a sandbox and themepark. Its all made up shit man.

<snipped bunch of sarcastic or dismissive stuff>

Talk about overreacting.

My point was simply that "sandbox" and "themepark" vaguely describe the magnitude of freedom.  There's considerable difference int he magnitude of freedom between the two, but sandbox isn't completely free nor is themepark particularly linear. 

My other point was to try to dismiss claims that sandbox games are this magical place where the player is 100% free to do what he wants.  They're not.  They have a great deal more freedom than themepark games, but you're still constrained in a lot of ways.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by metalhead980

Alright I give, Theres no difference between a sandbox and themepark. Its all made up shit man.

<snipped bunch of sarcastic or dismissive stuff>

 

Talk about overreacting.

My point was simply that "sandbox" and "themepark" vaguely describe the magnitude of freedom.  There's considerable difference int he magnitude of freedom between the two, but sandbox isn't completely free nor is themepark particularly linear. 

My other point was to try to dismiss claims that sandbox games are this magical place where the player is 100% free to do what he wants.  They're not.  They have a great deal more freedom than themepark games, but you're still constrained in a lot of ways.

LOL! Dude that last post was me with too many drinks in me while both the wife and four kids were at grandmas.

I apologize, really.

I honestly just think the whole sandbox and themepark thing is retarded.

Its easier for me to say I enjoy a open ended character progression which is basically just a skill system and me setting my own goal.

To go into specifics gets  new players really confused. The term sandbox is wrongfully used. In reality no game gives total freedom.

I think we should just go back to calling them mmorpgs.

For me:

Themepark = Game with events planned out to keep me entertained from beginning to end.

Sandbox = Simulation, where I'm turned loose in a virtual reality, where I can do whatever I feel like, and very little if anything is planned out in advance.

I really don't see why the differentiation is that difficult.

1. Sandboxes are what themepark players HATE because they're unstructured, not very entertaining, and provide little if any help in terms of hand-holding.

2. Themeparks are what sandbox players HATE because they're overly restrictive and limiting with regard to freedom.  For example, I'm on a quest to find the Kings daughter and I see a mountain to my left.  Forget the daughter, I want to run up the mountain, BUT the game won't let me.

Bottom line.  Sandboxes are for people who don't want to be TOLD how to play the game.  At least that's my perspective.

Ken

 edit type

The difference comes from a game design standpoint. Some developers, such as Blizzard with WoW, concentrate on custom tailoring the best player experience possible by making sure each element of the experience is somewhat mapped out before hand and the player is guided along these carefully made "amusements" (hence the theme park analogy).

Sandbox mmo developers (such as CCP with EVE Online) concentrate on making the game world as robust as possible with a minimal amount of player "guiding". Players are given a world, and it is up to them to find their own fun.

Now the thing is, every mmo has elements of both. Two games that are considered to be somewhat at the extremes (EVE and WoW) still contain elements of  the other "genre". WoW still leaves it up to you which areas of the world you want to explore, whether or not you want to craft, etc. EVE still has missions as "guided" experiences (though unlike in a more themepark game, these are not even close to being the "main attraction" but are rather just another option available to the player in the world.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Only real sandbox that exists right now is Second Life.

Everything else has sandbox elements, but is not an actual sand box.

Some games have a lot of sandbox elements, some have very little.

And what happens in a pure sandbox game, with total freedom? Mostly players cyber and not a whole lot else.

 

Whereas I agree that, given total freedom (such as in SL), most people will just resort to cybering, I would like to say:

That's one hot panda.

Originally posted by Rakipower

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Only real sandbox that exists right now is Second Life.

Everything else has sandbox elements, but is not an actual sand box.

Some games have a lot of sandbox elements, some have very little.

And what happens in a pure sandbox game, with total freedom? Mostly players cyber and not a whole lot else.

 

Whereas I agree that, given total freedom (such as in SL), most people will just resort to cybering, I would like to say:

That's one hot panda.

Would Asheron's Call be considered a Theme Park or a Sandbox MMO?

Originally posted by metalhead980

Originally posted by tro44_1

1) What defines a Sandbox MMORPG from the other subgenre MMO?

Open ended progression, Raise a character how you want and do what you want.

2) Can there be Classes in Sandbox? Cause I remember Elder Scroll:4 having classes at the start of the game.

Yes a sandbox can have classes as long as you have sometype of flexible skill system under the hood.

3) How Big does the world have to be inorder to stay balanced, but stay tuned to being Sandbox? (compare it to something in another game so we get a idea)

I don't understand how do you balance a world?

4) Do All Sandbox have to have no Auto Attack, and no Targeting, like Darkfall and Mortal Online, in order for it to be considered a Sandbox MMORPG?

Combat has nothing to do with a game being sandbox.

5)Sand Box mmos cant have Factions?

It can have factions, most of the time factions aren't hardcoded. You can join or leave anyone you want or even stay undecided. you have more freedom it isnt like Horde v Alliance in WoW where you would never get to change.

6) Does everything have to be Guild vs Guild oriented?

No it's whatever you want to versus.

7) In well done Sandbox MMORPG (I dont know a exmple), How does the game Balance out Guild combat, so lower populated Guild still have fun compared to High Populated Guilds?

The little guild bands together with other little guilds to meet the big guild or alliance head on.

8) Does Sandbox allways have to have Friendly Fire?

no

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If I think of any other questions, Iall try to add them. Thanks

Dude, the only difference between a sandbox and a themepark is in character progression. in a themepark you work toward a endgame goal with a set class with very little options. In a sandbox you create a custom template and you choose your end goal.

Other than that nothing else is written in stone as a sandbox or themepark feature.

er, so you are saying it's impossible to have a game where you have a character template but where you pick your end game? Or any part of the game?

I think people are too stuck on the idea of class templates being a bad thing.

If a game allows one to craft or fight, pve or pvp or take over and control land or just be a merchant then that is pretty sandbox to me.

The character class templates don't mitigate those things.

1- It's basically a world simulator.

2- Yes, but they can't be restrictive classes.

3- Balance?  Not sure what type of balance you are talking about.

4- No.

5- False, they can, but Factions can't limit your actions in a Sandbox (though they can have consequences for your actions).

6- No, nor should they be.  The guild based thing is Dev laziness in trying to pump up subs with annoying FOTM Gammer guilds who are like locusts who jump from game to game artificially pumping up subs until the next FTOM.

7- No MMORPGs to date have ever successful balanced the Zerg imbalance with regard to any form of grouping let alone guilds.

8- It should be strived for.

A game that does not send you down a path but gives you freedom to play in ways that you choose to play.. A Sandbox game has nonthing to do with skills or classes. Those are things that people took from a sandbox game they once played and then made it law that this is what all sandbox games are supposed to be.

Now with that being said my ideal sandbox game is a game where players have an actual effect on the game world like one poster stated above.

Necro post, but I agree... that's a rather hot panda.

Originally posted by tro44_1

1) What defines a Sandbox MMORPG from the other subgenre MMO?

2) Can there be Classes in Sandbox? Cause I remember Elder Scroll:4 having classes at the start of the game.

3) How Big does the world have to be inorder to stay balanced, but stay tuned to being Sandbox? (compare it to something in another game so we get a idea)

4) Do All Sandbox have to have no Auto Attack, and no Targeting, like Darkfall and Mortal Online, in order for it to be considered a Sandbox MMORPG?

5)Sand Box mmos cant have Factions?

6) Does everything have to be Guild vs Guild oriented?

7) In well done Sandbox MMORPG (I dont know a exmple), How does the game Balance out Guild combat, so lower populated Guild still have fun compared to High Populated Guilds?

8) Does Sandbox allways have to have Friendly Fire?

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If I think of any other questions, Iall try to add them. Thanks

1) That gameplay is ultimately driven by player interaction and not scripted content.

2) Yeah, why not...

3)Depends on the game?

4) No.

5) I think, like with EVE and Darkfall, there can be NPC factions that you can choose to fight for but ultimately players should be free to ignore those factions and create their own.

6) No.

7) Not even sure how to answer this. Zerging will happen and obviously having more people gives one side an advantage, won't guarantee them victory in EVE or Darkfall but certainly gives them an upperhand.

8) No.

These are just my opinions, the response to #1 is the only thing I truly believe should define what is "sandbox" and what isn't, and with this definition a sandbox game certainly isn't defined by FFA PVP even if the most popular games in the genre happen to revolve around it.

Necro thread =)

Originally posted by Rockgod99
Holy Necro Batman!!!!!!!

and if instead whoever necroed the post made a new thread...you would have posted

"God! Another one of these threads! use search next time"

Or maybe you personally wouldn't...but someone else would have.

Originally posted by VadimR

A sandbox is not defined by a series of answers to questions. I think freedom is also a poor descriptor, for no computer game can offer anything even close to complete freedom. Instead, a sandbox game is best described as a game that removes the need to follow a predefined path.

That pretty much is it.  In your search for defininions you have to understand the "ideal game" if such thing is possible isn't a sandbox or a theme park and when people those terms, it's not because a game is "definitely a sandbox", but rather in comparison. 

For example:  LoTRO is a Sandbox game compared to EQ2, but LoTRO is very much a theme park game when compared to SWG.  SWG is a sandbox when compared to LoTRO, but it's a theme park compared to Second Life.

It's really better to think of "sandbox" and "themepark" as adjectives that describe the degree to which a game leans one way or the other.  Not that something is "sandbox" or not ,but rather that something is more sandboxy than something else.

I'd like to stress that sandbox concepts have nothing to do with pvp rules, progression mechanic or lack of narrative.  If you were to take 10 of the world's most themepark games and join them, you'd actually get a game that's more sandbox, because it would be a game that offered a lot more choice in where, how, when and why to progress through the game. 

Your really beating a dead cat with this question....but for the sake of boredom....

You are thinking way to specific. All of those individual features that you listed are not the things that cause a game to be a sandbox game. Sandbox is a genre that can have games with all sorts of specific features and mechanisms in them. What makes a sandbox game is player control over the game world. If the players are able to change the actual game world and create their own little place in it, then the chances are the game is sandbox. But if the game-world consists of all these pre-made things like quests, dungeons, and raids that the player has no control over and runs through like amusement park rides, the chances are the game is not a sandbox.

Its all about changing the game world and making your own little place in it for you and your community. This also means the ability to destroy other peoples little places in an attempt become MASTER OF THE UNIVERSE! MWHAHAHA!

Player driven world.

1) What defines a Sandbox MMORPG from the other subgenre MMO?

IMO a sandbox game allows players to evolve and shape the physical, social and economic structure of the "world" they live in, using tools provided to them in a way that the developers of these tools can't predict.

2) Can there be Classes in Sandbox? Cause I remember Elder Scroll:4 having classes at the start of the game.

Sure but skills should define classes and not vice versa.

3) How Big does the world have to be inorder to stay balanced, but stay tuned to being Sandbox? 

 Size does not matter much if the world can be fully explored. (SWG, WOW, Everquest (underwater exploration) 

4) Do All Sandbox have to have no Auto Attack, and no Targeting, like Darkfall and Mortal Online, in order for it to be considered a Sandbox MMORPG?

No i don't support the idea of using real life "skills" like wealth or reflexes in rpg games.

5) Sand Box mmos cant have Factions?

Player made factions only.

6) Does everything have to be Guild vs Guild oriented?

No, guilds are not a large group of players but people that have similar skillsets and interests.

 7) In well done Sandbox MMORPG. How does the game Balance out Guild combat, so lower populated Guild still have fun compared to High Populated Guilds?

Usually by making allies (Darkfall) or even better using special skills (EVE Gang skills) or stealth like special forces do.

8) Does Sandbox allways have to have Friendly Fire?

It should be a skill imo.

Anyway the most important factor imo is the economy of the world. If for example i see an NPC vendor with unlimited inventory i don't consider the game sandbox at all.

Originally posted by tro44_1

1) What defines a Sandbox MMORPG from the other subgenre MMO?

Well the other genre is a theme park MMO. A sandbox is when the game doesn't limit your progression path. Most MMO's tell you to level your chosen class from 1-X and give you a recommended route to get there. A Sandbox will allow you to start out and do whatever you want. In a sandbox you can kill whoever you want, build whatever you want and generally is a looser game with various different paths that can be taken. Minecraft can be one extreme example of a sandbox game while Halo can be the extreme of a themepark type game.

2) Can there be Classes in Sandbox? Cause I remember Elder Scroll:4 having classes at the start of the game.

There can be but Classes are a subject of themepark, it would just make the game into a more themepark game. It closes doors. The best analogy is for sandbox all the doors are open while themepark maybe only 1 or 2 doors are open and all other options are blocked off.

3) How Big does the world have to be inorder to stay balanced, but stay tuned to being Sandbox? (compare it to something in another game so we get a idea)

The world doesn't have to be all that big in a sandbox. I don't think size of the world has anything to do with it, just size of the game.

4) Do All Sandbox have to have no Auto Attack, and no Targeting, like Darkfall and Mortal Online, in order for it to be considered a Sandbox MMORPG?

No, for example I consider Runescape to be a sandbox. Sandbox doesn't have to be first person and doesn't need the ability to aim. However first person does allow you to be more immersed within the game world. 

5)Sand Box mmos cant have Factions?

They can, but it would be more sandbox like if they were player made. Realm vs realm is forcing people to join a cause and fight for it but for example Lineage 2 has player built clans/alliances and they fight for castles. If you don't like your clan you can always hop over and join the opposition.

6) Does everything have to be Guild vs Guild oriented?

No. Why is this even an issue. 

7) In well done Sandbox MMORPG (I dont know a exmple), How does the game Balance out Guild combat, so lower populated Guild still have fun compared to High Populated Guilds?

Well basically higher populated more powerful guilds would attack and control the most powerful and most lucritive forts and wouldn't be able to keep more than one or two, this leaves many forts and territories, still less valuable for taking by smaller guilds. 

8) Does Sandbox allways have to have Friendly Fire?

Well you should be able to attack whoever you wish whenever you want.

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If I think of any other questions, Iall try to add them. Thanks

Just my take on it.