i don't raid 

it takes to much time and most of the time you don't get any reward out of  it

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

What do solo players do when they get to the end game of WoW? Quit the game? All of them? You mean NO ONE is raiding in WoW? Really?

The argument I am hearing from solo players is you can't make the game as hard to level solo as EQ. That's just not solo friendly enough! Why, I can't stand around LFG all the time. I've got to walk the baby and change the dogs diapers! You expect me to group to make fast progress? That's unheard of! That game will fail! The game MUST be as easy to level as WoW or you're trying to FORCE me to group with you. I won't make xp as fast as a group? Impossible! Don't force me! I won't stand for it. No, no, no! The modern game must let solo just as easy as grouping to level up. Yes, that's the ONLY design that's viable. Nothing else will work. The game MUST be like WoW or it cannot succeed!

And then you get to the end game and what? you quit? Every single solo player that is on these threads complaining about how they would never play a "forced grouping game" (meaning you dont' level as fast solo as in a group) quits when they get to the end game?

What about in RvR when you need a guild or you get your butt handed to you solo? You quit playing that too, and go find another solo friendly game so you can level solo just as fast as grouping?

 If encouraging grouping is such a horrible game design, destined to fail, why are people raiding at the end of all the mMORPGs?

Raiding is even MORE time consuming and forced than grouping in EQ. So how is raiding ok, but encouraging grouping before the end game is such a horrible crime, and destined to fail?

I like a good grouping game like EQ or DAoC myself. I don't really care for the raid, but seems like a lot of players are doing it. You're telling me players dont' mind raiding, but if they can't solo as fast as WoW they won't play the game? Really?

How is playing the end game in WoW, and playing a game like EQ that encourages grouping before the end game, so terribly different?

I'm seriously asking.

 

Raiding involves a preset group of people meeting at a prearranged time, to progress through specific content. I loved raiding when I had the time, but never grouped outside my guild.

It has none of the randomness that are assossiated with PUG's. (raiding has a different set of issues).

Originally posted by Nightbringe1

Raiding involves a preset group of people meeting at a prearranged time, to progress through specific content.

It has none of the randomness that are assossiated with PUG's. (raiding has a different set of issues).

Unless you are PUG Raiding! Havent had fun doing that since EQ though.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Reward people for grouping just like you reward people for raiding, and they will group and have fun doing it. Reward them for soloing, and they'll run off and solo. So do I  in  a game that doesnt' reward me for grouping. Then I find the game sucks, and I quit. 

The problem is, you've played games which have rewarded you for grouping.

As I recall you said something along the lines of feeling like you were being inefficient by grouping in COH, yet at no point in the game's life was soloing better XP than an average group.  Grouping was the best rate of rewards in the game.  It was actually the perfect balance for a while (when grouping was merely slightly better than soloing) and has since slipped a little (grouping is now the only viable playstyle.)

So you've played at least one game like that, and for whatever reasons you're no longer interested in it (which is fine, I liked COH for a while and lost interest too.)

But the problem comes when you create these ridiculously extremist threads which propose 2-3 times (or more!) the rate of rewards from grouping as opposed to soloing (or raiding), and that's just unreasonable.

Is soloing great?

there are people who like to solo, but a great many people solo due to the flaw of level based gaming.

People who would group together often level at different paces. So when their friends out level them they are forced to solo due to the experience penalty for characters of differing levels.

I have soloed alot not because I want to solo but becuase grouping with friends who have greatly out leveled me gives both of us an experinece penalty. The higher level makes less because he is fighting lower level content and I lose exp due to my friend being higher level.

So soloing is inadvertandly forced on players who want  to level efficiantly.

I group with friends when we are close to the same level but life often prevents people from leveling equally.

I would suggest that some change in game mechanincs or game design would be the best fix for a lot of soloers going to groupers.

As for raids I know i'm in the minority but the only reason I want to ever raid is to see the dungeon. I could careless about epic gear. Due to my not wanting to be epic geared I get left out of raid groups.

Originally posted by Murashu

Originally posted by Nightbringe1

Raiding involves a preset group of people meeting at a prearranged time, to progress through specific content.

It has none of the randomness that are assossiated with PUG's. (raiding has a different set of issues).

Unless you are PUG Raiding! Havent had fun doing that since EQ though.

I've joined one or two of those in EQII, but they are generally single target and take less than 30 minutes.

Raiding is easier, you can mess up and not get noticed often.  You can have multiple bad players and often you still can get the big bad bosses killed.   Raiding gets you the best gear ingame, so it's worth putting up some guild drama for it. 

Grouping, well, you don't get the best gear, 1 person messing up often wipes the group, and you get 1 bad player you often have a difficult time functioning well. 

So overall it's because raiding is just easier and nets you the best rewards.

Originally posted by Mardy

Raiding is easier, you can mess up and not get noticed often.  You can have multiple bad players and often you still can get the big bad bosses killed.   Raiding gets you the best gear ingame, so it's worth putting up some guild drama for it. 

 

Grouping, well, you don't get the best gear, 1 person messing up often wipes the group, and you get 1 bad player you often have a difficult time functioning well. 

 

So overall it's because raiding is just easier and nets you the best rewards.

Not true for all raiding games.  EQ1 you could not have one person mess up and still win on alot of the raids and events.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by Mardy

Raiding is easier, you can mess up and not get noticed often.  You can have multiple bad players and often you still can get the big bad bosses killed.   Raiding gets you the best gear ingame, so it's worth putting up some guild drama for it. 

 Grouping, well, you don't get the best gear, 1 person messing up often wipes the group, and you get 1 bad player you often have a difficult time functioning well.

Not true for all raiding games.  EQ1 you could not have one person mess up and still win on alot of the raids and events.

Having my progress stifled by the 2-4 terrible players in a guild is basically the worst part of raiding.  Yes, the answer is to be a jackass and kick them, but the better answer is for games to be about grouping content where you don't have to take so many players that you bring deadweight.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

What do solo players do when they get to the end game of WoW? Quit the game? All of them? You mean NO ONE is raiding in WoW? Really?

Never raided. Never will. Too much whining, too many cliques, too disorganized and it is basically like trying to herd cats.  That applies to every MMO I have ever played in the last 5 or 6 years, by the way, not just to WoW.  I got fed up with raids very early on in EQ.

Originally posted by Dibdabs

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

What do solo players do when they get to the end game of WoW? Quit the game? All of them? You mean NO ONE is raiding in WoW? Really?

Never raided. Never will. Too much whining, too many cliques, too disorganized and it is basically like trying to herd cats.  That applies to every MMO I have ever played in the last 5 or 6 years, by the way, not just to WoW.  I got fed up with raids very early on in EQ.

 

I avoid raids as well. Played to 60 in WOW, felt like I actually just reached the end of an MMO and then canceled. I think only 15% of WOW players ever participated in a raid around the time of TBC. Since they lowered it to 5- and 10-man for newer stuff I am guessing that went up, but I am curious by how much.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by illanadan

 Just for you!

 

Gee, I didnt' get you anything. :(

Now I just feel slighted :(

"why do players raid?"

Because people are to simple to realize they are being suckered into paying to run the same crap over and over again.  Because developers devised a great maze for the rats to chase their cheese.

Grouping sucks in mmos if it's forced. Things should just be made to scale these days. Everyone plays different and it's sad they think everyone should play the same or be forced into a situation. I don't like playing with strangers, and I have real life so making friends online is a rare event for me. I definitely won't make enough in a mmo to do most group content and I shouldn't be stuck with the choice to accept that or group with kiddies or idiots who tell people how to play, how to use abilities or whatever. Giving orders to me in general is a bad thing to do in a mmo. Bottom line, just use exploits and hacks to solo. It ruins the game. WoW is so easy to cheat in and so is Aion.  

I've got to walk the baby and change the dogs diapers!

...and eat your cat and let out the tv dinner.

Originally posted by MadBloodDoll

Grouping sucks in mmos if it's forced. Things should just be made to scale these days. Everyone plays different and it's sad they think everyone should play the same or be forced into a situation. I don't like playing with strangers, and I have real life so making friends online is a rare event for me. I definitely won't make enough in a mmo to do most group content and I shouldn't be stuck with the choice to accept that or group with kiddies or idiots who tell people how to play, how to use abilities or whatever. Giving orders to me in general is a bad thing to do in a mmo. Bottom line, just use exploits and hacks to solo. It ruins the game. WoW is so easy to cheat in and so is Aion.  

IMO, scaling sucks. It's an Iwin button.

Originally posted by Venger

"why do players raid?"

Because people are to simple to realize they are being suckered into paying to run the same crap over and over again.  Because developers devised a great maze for the rats to chase their cheese.

That's all MMO gameplay, raiding or not.  Why are you on this site?  Anyway,  raiding can be great fun with good friends not with random idiots.  It's all about taking the effort to build (or seek out) a good guild.

Soloing is the reason the MMORPG genre has stagnated since WoW came out.  Genre was ruined when forced grouping to progress was eliminated.  That is why the communities of MMOs are so vile, there is no sense of community, just me, me, me and the gear I can accumulate or the n00bs I can teabag.

I wish developers would go back to forced grouping to weed out all the trash.  If you don't have or want to spend the time that a true MMO takes to play, go play a single player RPG.  This is what MMOs have become anyway, coop, single-player RPGs.

<< That is why the communities of MMOs are so vile, there is no sense of community, just me, me, me and the gear I canaccumulate or the n00bs I can teabag. >>

I encountered lots of jerks in AC1, EQ1, SB and, briefly, in UO (which I played for about a week)... 

Originally posted by zethcarn

Originally posted by Venger

"why do players raid?"

Because people are to simple to realize they are being suckered into paying to run the same crap over and over again.  Because developers devised a great maze for the rats to chase their cheese.

 

That's all MMO gameplay, raiding or not. 

There's more to MMOs than EQ/WOW-style games, zeth. :(