Putting the "RPG" back into MMOs

It seems that every gamer has their own personal opinions for what justifies a great MMORPG. Because of the growing success of MMOGs in general, the RPG elements that made this genre so successful are often times overlooked. What can not be denied is that the growing demand for more RPG content and game elements still remain among gamers. The demand for the RPG genre is growing in so much that many MMO players are returning to single player RPG's just to re-live the essence of this dieing breed.

The definition of a "true" RPG or what makes an RPG an "epic" one is of great debate. I believe the discussion of what one expects in an RPG is a very valid one as the RPG market can in many ways change the fate of MMOGs all together. Some believe that RPGs can not successfully be accommodated by MMOs as RPGs are story driven and not content driven and that you can not successfully tell a personalized story in an MMO. Some players also believe that story telling in an MMO can make the game too "linear" thus removing the true feeling of limitless options. Some believe an RPG is PVE driven and that the content is not as important as the personal interaction with the world in general (crafting, questing etc). Some players only need a broad palette of options for character customization, different armor and gear to role play.

What do you expect out of a great RPG and do you believe these attributes can be successfully married into the MMOG genre once again? What do you believe is the future of RPGs and what place does it still have in the MMO gaming world?

I don't look for RPG elements in an MMORPG, other than the basic elements of any computer role playing game, that is character progression.

I'm not interested in any stories in an MMORPG, dont' read the quest dialog, don't care about the lore.

I like getting in a group and working well together to progress our characters, completing difficult quests or grinding on difficult mobs.

That being said, I'm looking forward to The Old Republic. It may be fun becuase after all KOTOR was a blast.

I like the idea of multi party quest dialog. Might not be fun over and over again, but then again it might.

The idea in TOR, is each member of the party gets to answer the quest dialog. In most MMORPGs, it goes like this.

I want you to go kill 10 bugbears, and bring me back their claws because...... blah, blah, blah, some lore, some story that doesn't change the game world, blah blah blah. Who cares?

But in TOR, it goes like, I want you to kill the pilot of that space shuttle. Will you kill him? then each party member gets to answer, yes, or no.

 what happens next depends on how the party votes. Sounds like fun.

Computer MMOs are labelled as an RPG game on a mere technicality.  Computer MMOs are not, and never will be, even remotely close to the role-playing depth, character detail and player interaction of 5 or 6 close friends gathered around a table with a DM and rolling dice. 

I have zero interest in participating in what passes for "role playing" in an MMO. 

Originally posted by Dibdabs

Computer MMOs are labelled as an RPG game on a mere technicality.  Computer MMOs are not, and never will be, even remotely close to the role-playing depth, character detail and player interaction of 5 or 6 close friends gathered around a table with a DM and rolling dice. 

I have zero interest in participating in what passes for "role playing" in an MMO. 

 

I agree. It all starts with the community. If you have a community full of intolerant selfish jerkoffs, well, that's the kind of gameplay you can expect. However, I do believe the developers could help foster stronger communities by becoming more directly involved, but that takes away from the all important bottom line.

Here's my Tuesday morning blah blah blah.  I think MMOs can give a role-playing experience quite well (and I don't mean for someone who stays in-character in chat, etc.)  Some keys elements for me are:

1.Epic progression - the sense that a great "story" is unfolding.  Epic lands that you actually enjoy being in, that give a sense that the world is huge and you've been on a journey by the time you approach max (hopefully it takes at least a month of regular play to see everything.)  No invisible walls, unswimmable water, unjumpable cliffs.  A steady increase in your character's power so that you can feel a real difference as you gain abilities.  Some truly hard things to accomplish that require teamwork.  (In the real world, you can't solo everything.)   

2. Good design that keeps you "in-character."  I mean, you're never reminded that you're a human behind a computer controlling a character, because the UI is fluid, combat is smooth, the characters are well-matched to the style of the world.  Basically I think you need to believe in your character.

3. The biggest monitor you can afford.  Peripheral vision = immersion.  On this note, how you use your camera makes a big difference.  I see so many vids where the player is zoomed all the way out so that their character is a little spot in the middle of the screen.  I like to keep the camera zoomed to where my character is about 1/2 the height of the screen.  It lets me get into the character instead of feeling like Mario.  

4. Letting go of the feeling that every second in game must result in an identifiable improvement in your character.  Go to the starter lands and hang around, maybe help someone with something (can't help but have a few "remember when" moments.) Go sneak around enemy territory, especially if you don't have stealth.  Create some random guild events.  Anything other than questing.  (If these things aren't fun, the game probably doesn't meet 1 & 2 above.)

I think the written lore of the game itself is less important.  I don't read all the quests, either.  I really don't want someone to tell me a story.  I want to live it.  A great game will BE a story due to the inspired art, world design, and overall fluidity/believability of the experience.  After all, irl no one sits you down and explains who you are.  You figure it out and develop it yourself.

Originally posted by garbonzo

Here's my Tuesday morning blah blah blah.  I think MMOs can give a role-playing experience quite well (and I don't mean for someone who stays in-character in chat, etc.)  Some keys elements for me are:

1.Epic progression - the sense that a great "story" is unfolding.  Epic lands that you actually enjoy being in, that give a sense that the world is huge and you've been on a journey by the time you approach max (hopefully it takes at least a month of regular play to see everything.)  No invisible walls, unswimmable water, unjumpable cliffs.  A steady increase in your character's power so that you can feel a real difference as you gain abilities.  Some truly hard things to accomplish that require teamwork.  (In the real world, you can't solo everything.)   

2. Good design that keeps you "in-character."  I mean, you're never reminded that you're a human behind a computer controlling a character, because the UI is fluid, combat is smooth, the characters are well-matched to the style of the world.  Basically I think you need to believe in your character.

3. The biggest monitor you can afford.  Peripheral vision = immersion.  On this note, how you use your camera makes a big difference.  I see so many vids where the player is zoomed all the way out so that their character is a little spot in the middle of the screen.  I like to keep the camera zoomed to where my character is about 1/2 the height of the screen.  It lets me get into the character instead of feeling like Mario.  

4. Letting go of the feeling that every second in game must result in an identifiable improvement in your character.  Go to the starter lands and hang around, maybe help someone with something (can't help but have a few "remember when" moments.) Go sneak around enemy territory, especially if you don't have stealth.  Create some random guild events.  Anything other than questing.  (If these things aren't fun, the game probably doesn't meet 1 & 2 above.)

I think the written lore of the game itself is less important.  I don't read all the quests, either.  I really don't want someone to tell me a story.  I want to live it.  A great game will BE a story due to the inspired art, world design, and overall fluidity/believability of the experience.  After all, irl no one sits you down and explains who you are.  You figure it out and develop it yourself.

    

 

 

Some good points here although some very succesful one player "open ended" RPGs have been released as well. They include story and plot but still give you the ability to explore and do as you please. Elder scrolls is a great example of this.

I would support such a concept if enough quality content was made available. To me this means several branching storylines that could acomodate different playing styles and personalities. Also, deemphasizing the "hero" aspect of the game and letting characters earn rare aspects or characterstics through challenging quests would be important. That the concept would require massive work and may be something of a niche makes it unlikely it would be done like this, however the upside is the idea would discourage people looking for just MMOGs with persistent worlds... it would be my dream comunity even if i dont like to rp myself.

Exactly my thought about RPG element in games called MMORPG.

I think FFXi did a a great job by combining characters advancement and reward on this matter and story driven PVE game. This is probably why this game has been MY favorite MMO. Today's genre seem more to be like, gain levels, get rewards (items, reputation etc.), fight and learn bosses, etc.

I think MMOs can wrap up all elements together and come up with a complete games and this is what i'm looking for in the next generation MMOs. A game where you can get involved in the story, deep and meaningful crafting, good challenge for bosses, housing, solo and grouping aspect along with PvE and PvP. My opinion is that second generation MMOs will suit every type of players.

But yea, i think most MMORPGs thse days forget about the RPG part. That's why i've been seeking good RPGs on consoles hehe

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Originally posted by Caleveira
letting characters earn rare aspects or characterstics through challenging quests would be important. That concept would require massive work

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Indeed: most players would screan "UNFAIR" if they themselves couldn't get that specific item... unless it is purely about appearance and does not change the stats. Which would make the whole thing kind of useless.

An alternative would be to have some kind of "quest tree" when, depending on which quests you've done previously certain quests are closed or open to you, and their rewards as well. This would be interesting, but would required so much balancing so that all end results are about equivalent in power, that I'm getting a headache just writing about it...

I agree with the OP........strongly.
It is time to start calling the genre MMO games not MMORPG, in which case the games which can be called MMORPGs are very few at the moment.

Any game that let you skip all the content before level cap cannot be considered an RPG, even if it has some element in it.
What makes an RPG is the journey not the end game
All modern MMORPG focus toward the end game instead, so all the leveling bit is considered as an inconvenience by the players.

Let's not forget that the Warcraft trylogy  was an RTS.......not an RPG, the majority of players that Blizzard brought to the MMORPG market with WoW were probably RTS players not RPG players..............
I bet the majority of people who plays MMOs at the moment don't even like RPGs in single player mode, otherwise Dragon Ages from Bioware should sell 10 million copies, but it won't (it will sell well though)
Real RPG players like me will buy Dragon Ages, like I did for every major RPG released since 1995

So where are our MMO RPGs?
At the moment there are none, the original EQ is the closest you can get to an RPG experience although different from the single player games, since the questing is quite poor, but there is a sense of progression, achievement and adventure which every game that came after it never had (WoW included)
SWG pre NGE also was a good RPG, same as Ultima Online, strangely enough all pre-WoW games

Bioware unfortunately seems to have chose the path of WoW with a twist rather than using their experience in the RPG genre to make a true MMORPG.
Now the last chance to see an AAA MMO RPG rests with Bethesda, there is an horde of real RPG players waiting for the game which puts the RPG back in the MMORPG genre, and I hope that game is Elder Scroll Online or Fallout Online.

Originally posted by trepo

Exactly my thought about RPG element in games called MMORPG.

I think FFXi did a a great job by combining characters advancement and reward on this matter and story driven PVE game. This is probably why this game has been MY favorite MMO. Today's genre seem more to be like, gain levels, get rewards (items, reputation etc.), fight and learn bosses, etc.

I think MMOs can wrap up all elements together and come up with a complete games and this is what i'm looking for in the next generation MMOs. A game where you can get involved in the story, deep and meaningful crafting, good challenge for bosses, housing, solo and grouping aspect along with PvE and PvP. My opinion is that second generation MMOs will suit every type of players.

But yea, i think most MMORPGs thse days forget about the RPG part. That's why i've been seeking good RPGs on consoles hehe

I agree with a lot of what you added and that it is why I'm anticipating BioWare's interpretation of the SW series as an mmorpg. I would like to see more risks like this to be taken with mmos. The definition of what makes a game a true RPG is still the major debate though. For instance, I prefer story and content provided it is well told and makes you believe you are progressing in a limitless world. AoC tried to do this but failed at making every player seem as if he/she was chosen. Also, after the first 20 levels, the game changes from RPGish to just mmo.

Originally posted by KarmaCry7

I agree with a lot of what you added and that it is why I'm anticipating BioWare's interpretation of the SW series as an mmorpg. I would like to see more risks like this to be taken with mmos. The definition of what makes a game a true RPG is still the major debate though. For instance, I prefer story and content provided it is well told and makes you believe you are progressing in a limitless world. AoC tried to do this but failed at making every player seem as if he/she was chosen. Also, after the first 20 levels, the game changes from RPGish to just mmo.

I haven't played AoC so i can't comment on it hehe. But i agree with you regarding the upcoming SW MMO and the features they made public so far. I'm really looking forward at the group quests system where everyone in the group can participate in the diaglogs and (maybe) shape the quest line. I think this is a great way to also give the impression to the player that they play a character and that this type of character behave a way or another. This is a very important side of RPG to actually get to think and take actions like you were a smugler instead of someone who plays a video game hehe

I also prefer story driven MMOs, good contents etc. but the MMO genre is so big right now that games will need to offer more and more if they want to appeal to the mass and get a decent ammount of players to play their game. This is why i think that they'll need to bring closer the MMO and the RPG part together to make MMORPG hehe

The problem is that no MMO has ever been a real RPG.  It hasn't happened and I don't think it can happen, it's an inherent limitation of the technology and the design.  Then again, people think the Final Fantasy games are RPGs and they're not.  Getting dragged by the nose through an overblown story is not roleplaying, sorry.  Getting immersed in a game is not roleplaying.  Running through Halo is not roleplaying Master Chief, sorry.  It's just not.

Roleplaying requires freedom to do whatever you want.  It is not mindless progression, it is not mindless gear-grinding, it isn't farming gold or crafting.  You're no more roleplaying a character in an MMO than you're roleplaying the litle dog in Monopoly.

Originally posted by KarmaCry7

AoC tried to do this but failed at making every player seem as if he/she was chosen.

Because it is impossible to do.  If everyone is special, then no one is.

Originally posted by rothbard

Originally posted by KarmaCry7

AoC tried to do this but failed at making every player seem as if he/she was chosen.

Because it is impossible to do.  If everyone is special, then no one is.

That's why the idea of "epic" is so absurd.  It's one thing to be Frodo throwing the One Ring into the fire at Mount Doom.  It's another when you're standing in line waiting to toss your "one ring" into the lava.  If everyone can do it and thousands of people already have, how can it be epic?

 i don't care at all about story in an MMO

RPG in MMO's is lacking imo. But I think too many people confuse the RP in RPG with story. And I don't think that it necessarily the case. RP stands for Role Play. For me that definitely does not mean playing out the line of a story being spoon fed to me by devs. Nor does it mean being a carebare standing around talking like a shakespeare character :)  Its about the ability to develop the role of my character and for me that means depth and width of development options. My char needs to be able to progress in level, skills, appearance, traits, attributes, etc... anything so I have as many options as possible for developing my char so that the farther along in the game I go, the better the opportunity I have to make my char as unique to myself as I can.

I do love a great and compelling storyline but for me, the role of story in an MMO is very different than a standalone. In an MMO I want story to provide the lore, backstory and occasional motivational and thematic excuses to play. For my tastes, in an MMO I prefer one that gives the players the tools to make their own storylines within the context of the IP.

I realized I'm a minority on this and few will agree.

Originally posted by dhayes68

RPG in MMO's is lacking imo. But I think too many people confuse the RP in RPG with story. And I don't think that it necessarily the case. RP stands for Role Play. For me that definitely does not mean playing out the line of a story being spoon fed to me by devs. Nor does it mean being a carebare standing around talking like a shakespeare character :)  Its about the ability to develop the role of my character and for me that means depth and width of development options. My char needs to be able to progress in level, skills, appearance, traits, attributes, etc... anything so I have as many options as possible for developing my char so that the farther along in the game I go, the better the opportunity I have to make my char as unique to myself as I can.

That's the problem, most games don't make you unique, most  games make you a cookie-cutter.  There's armor you have to have, weapons you have to have, spells you have to have, all of which makes you entirely interchangable with every other character of your class.  You're not special, you're not unique, you're just another one of the crowd of faceless character types that can fit seemlessly into whatever group happens to come along that needs you.

...I feel like nowadays...most folks  are more interested in the engame level capping gank fest...PVP?..So what that you have this 12 foot high sword that glows green and spews sparks and can kill a toon!...Who cares?   I remember playing UO back in 1999 when there was only a PVP side..You banded together and and faought off the bandits...Killing flagged you as a murderer and there were penalties for dying.....It was not like it is today..And with UO...Well...it was a community with skills...you picked up crap on the ground in order to make things or cast spells..and when you ran out..well..YOU RAN!....the original sanbox.....I am nostalgic for those types of games today......I hope we can see them soon...it is a shame that all folks want to do it get to level 80 so they can kill someone else....Isn't that what xbox is for(halo)?

Originally posted by Cephus404

That's the problem, most games don't make you unique, most  games make you a cookie-cutter.  There's armor you have to have, weapons you have to have, spells you have to have, all of which makes you entirely interchangable with every other character of your class.  You're not special, you're not unique, you're just another one of the crowd of faceless character types that can fit seemlessly into whatever group happens to come along that needs you.

Its not the weapons, or even the character classes, its the insistance on combat.  You could take the same exact rules and equipment possiblities out of a mmorpg and bring them to pnp and it will be like night and day.  The more the game world promotes combat and only combat, the more cookie cutter the characters will be.  Fix the game world, and the characters will be free to diversify.

Sadly, often i hear that the games are 'dumbed down' so that any combat technique will work when that is the attitude that gets us the cookie cutters iin the first place.  Its this dumbing down that allows that characters to vary.