What do you expect in an almost 3 year old MMO?  That a huge chunk of the population is going to be mid-level?  I mean come on now..

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by page 

Since you like to use statistics, find 10 off the street WoW players, and ask them if they know about Vanguard, or mmorpg.com

 I'm 100% sure they will say no !!!

 

I didn't say everyone knows about vanguard and I thought I was pretty clear in saying that it doesn't have a huge advertising budget.  However new people are trying it all the time and have been for the last few years.

The result is that the game is has not retained players.  Would more advertising really change that?

I thought I made myself pretty clear, that they have to do two things, FIX THE GAME FIRST then advertise.  Mid level game is MOST all  group quest. EVERY ZONE AFTER LEVEL 20 HAS RECOMMENDED 3 PLAYERS. Please don't minimize this point because it's spot on fact.  Leaving the kill 10 rats quest to the solo player.

The OOC, and few mid level Guildie's were constantly complaining about this, yet when you offer help they would ether ignore you or say na.  Seems as if people were just trying to find solo content.  Thrust me I'm a very social player in all my mmo's.  I'm the king of LFG's and know how to use all the resources to find them.  I can even take dull games like EQ2 mid level and cause a spark to get players to group.  Yet Vanguard is made for group play only.

Someone recommended a guild called noberific or something like that.  Anyway I joined that guild only to find the same complaints as no one can play solo.  Yet on the other hand, no one was grouping either. I guess it's because Vanguard has a lot of first time around players, and everyone likes solo first time around.

I still stand by everything I say, FIX THE GAME FIRST THEN ADVERTISE, as in real advertisement, not cheap advertisement like they been doing !!!

Don't even think about arguing these facts, because this is why Vanguard is dead !!  I just took the guess work out for all of you.

Originally posted by page

Don't even think about arguing these facts, because this is why Vanguard is dead !!  I just took the guess work out for all of you.

Shame you don't work for SOE then.

So the reason Vanguard isn't popular (setting aside its early technical issues) is because it's not solo friendly at mid level?

That is a pretty damning indictment on the Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game community.

Personally, I love Vanguard BECAUSE you need to group. It's like online D&D, Runequest, Harn, etc, and NOT a Fighting Fantasy choose your path solo book!

I just wish more MMORPG players actually wanted to MMORP.

Not every game has to be solo friendly, perhaps Vanguard just needs to advertise specifically towards the people looking for group orientated PvE play?

That was a bad attempt to argue the facts Vyrolakos,

If I worked as a dev. for SOE :

No page, were not going to spend the funds on re-aragning quest for you to make more solo friendly content, now get to work on programing our billing and accounts for the Station Pass, we need more money !

If I worked as marketing for SOE :

No Page, were not spending the money to put disc in the store.  And we have a policy, we don't schedule air time on National TV.  Now call mmorpg and get a good cheap price to run a 2"x2" banner on mmorpg.com web site again, like we always do !

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Look everyone, no sense in waisting brain cells on Vanguard as to why it has a low population.  It's up to SOE and SOE alone to make things better.  In fact they may be right where they want to be with it.  Some one in a previous post stated they may have bought out the game just to keep pressure off EQ2, that could be.  Fans here at mmorpg are not gonna save this game with well thought out post cause were nothing, were a baseball as compared to the size of the sun.

Something to ponder :

WoW is the only game where the deves re-arrange content to make the game better. 

LOTRO- Book quest, and chain quest ( do first part, to get the next quest )  makes the game too solo  and discouraging to find players to help or group, yet they don't fix this. The game could be #2, but it could be way more popular if they would fix this irritating aspect of the game.

Warhammer- Very anticipated before release, But they blind sided everyone with giving ALL the exp. to scenarios, when people were expecting RvR, Yet to my knowledge they never fixed this.

EQ2- kind of like Vanguard, try to solo and shoot one strategic placed arrow and agro the entire zone at random, Never fixed the dull elevator music, never added trees to its flat green carpet of a world. Never fixed the chat so everyone talks to everyone, and NEVER FIXED THEIR MAPS, so nob's are confused, and discouraged.

Every MMO has some nasty aspect to piss people off real bad, yet they never fix them ever, including Vanguard.

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Lets face the facts even the most social player players solo 70% of the time ( more so if your new ). Unless your a husband and wife teem, or a total nerd with a pack of nerds friends that all are on board with playing Vanguard, you will not survive with Vanguard in the state it's in. That's a given, just look at the game !

Originally posted by page

Trial was GREAT !

10-20 was GREAT !

20-30 it all just stops..........population goes down to nothing, BUT........ Thats not the worst part of it.  All the fun quest are group quest.  Solo quest are the go kill ten rats quest.  You will find real cool keeps,castles, dungeons, caves, and holes in the ground and not be able to play them because that's for the group quest.  Every noob was complaining about this in game, yet you can't get groups together for anything !

I love Vanguard.  So much that I come here every few days to see if anything changed, but nothing. 

 SOE needs to advertise, I mean really advertise, not by giving a free month and using word of mouth on mmorpg.com where everyone already knows the state of the game, but Real advertisement, not the free marketing crap they had been offering.

They also need to fix the group quest. What were they thinking !!..... That every zone will have 100 of people in each 24/7.  WoW does not even have the populations to do what Vanguard was trying to achieve per zone.

Champions Online failed, Darkfall failed, AoC failed, Warhammer failed, now Aion is failing. .......come on SOE, fix Vanguard and really advertise.... Nows your chance Do It !!

Nothing SOE can do will change gamers themselves.The majority are superficial gamers,they want to solo,and no it has nothing to do with casual or time constraints,that is all BS lies.They do not care about the quality of a game,they only want a few things,play with the masses,easy leveling to end game,then a PVP stage to brag,show off whatever.

I am afraid there is nothing that will get players to think rationally and play a better quality game like VG,it has passed the hype stage,and as i said players follow the masses,the hype.So i am saying this game literally has less than a 5% chance of ever making a comeback,marketing,spending money will not do it.

They would have to introduce something into the game SOoooooooooooo big,that people would have to jump in or look stupid,i can't see that happening,creative ideas in all developing studios seems to be at an all time low.

How could you introduce something so big without totally changing the game??this has already been tried in SWG,it does not work,once players begin to leave,nothing can change it,and yes players were already leaving SWG before NGE,that i why they made the changes they did,they were in hot water.This is why i also believe SOE will never again waste time and money to try and change a game or win back players,they will instead move on,this is why you will not see support for old games now.

It is all about money and running a business,both Smed and the  top gun at SONY were made top execs to try and turn around SONY from losing money,they are not going to spend money where it is not making money.Here is a biggie,ask players what they actually want and they are pretty much lost,i don't think gamers want anymore than what i already pointed out,those 3 things.......easy/fast/high reward.

Though i hate to say this, i would really like to see some form of a pvp flagging system like SWG had, or WoW.  Perhaps side could be what continent you started on.  If there on your Continent you can atk them but are flagged for a period of time.  This would effect PvE though; or you can go to the other land masses kill a guard and your flagged.  It could add a little bit of pvp fun that you wouldnt need to take part in.  I know its a PvE game but its all about options...

I might give this a spin.

Page, I agree with much of what you say and think it is correct.  However I do not think that is the only problem with the game and fixing the mid level grouping will not magically solve this games problems (even with advertising).

Honestly I think you are stating one fact among many.  It has been almost 3 years and the company running the game is not going to put the resources into making it thrive.  It doesn't really matter what facts we point out that are holding the game back, because they are not going to get addressed.

I guess your right Daffid011,

Their not gonna do nothin, It's a rep for Vanguard.  it's sad because I like the game. I'm really starting to hate SOE

I like the game also, but see little reason to invest my time into a game without the company running it willing to do the same. 

Sad really. 

Originally posted by page

That was a bad attempt to argue the facts Vyrolakos,

Wouldn't dream of arguing with what you have said, I agree with most of it. ;)

Vanguard suffers from three serious problems:

• It's owned by SOE. That fact alone alienates many people.
• It didn't live up to the hype that Sigil generated prior to release and it used to be as buggy as hell. That has haunted it ever since.
• The population at low levels is poor due to the games age.

If you can get over these three points, it's a great game to play right now.

Originally posted by VultureSkull

IMHO the risk involved cannot be greater than the development of a brand new MMO, simply reason is because it works already, unlike a lot of games we have seen recently, WAR, Tabula to mention a few.

I agree the reputation proceeds it due to its launch.

Maybe something radically can be attempted, change the name, change the character models and release it as a brand new game altogether for example lol. But then that introduces risk again. Well i guess it will just go donw as the greatest MMO that never was :-(

You are forgetting one thing. Most people or should i say the majority want something new when they grow tired of the game they are playing now. Most are not interested in going back to 2-5 year old games. I say most and not all since there obviously are people just as myself that still has a taste for nostalgia such as EQ and VG. I also realize I'm part of a minority. Everybody want the latest thing no matter how great or improved some of the older stuff is and it's a shame. Sure investing money in the PR machine will bring about a few subs but i seriously doubt they will see a profit or a return on it.

I have tried every popular MMO out there right now. WoW, Lotro, Aion, War, AoC and i personally feel VG is the best of them all. I wouldn't be subbed to two VG accounts if i didn't. I'm also a realist ..there is little to no precedence of an older game coming back with a larger re-investment. I don't blame SoE for not wanting to risk it.

I don't believe that SOE bought VG, because they feared it would be competitive with EQ2. No one wanted any part of Vanguard when Sigil was trying to sell it, it sucked and it would be a huge risk to do anything with it. SOE saved the game, and people really hate SOE for some things they have done, but really they have never been a terrible company.

They have some of the best CSR's I've ever dealt with, they keep games like MxO and VG alive despite their obvious shortcomings in sales or launch problems. Yeah, they messed up on EQ2 and "ruined" SWG for a lot of people and did the CU and NGE patches in the worst possible way, but despite these faults are they really a BAD company? I don't think so.

I'll agree that SOE keeps Vanguard alive and on basic life support.  They deff fixed most all the bugs, and they added the Trial Isle.  But more needs to be done, the interface and the world are fine, just need to work on the game play.

I may be wrong, but I really don't think the low population is because it's like 3 years old, and had a bad launch.  Many people cycled thru the the Trial Isle and loved it.  In fact 10-20 was still active when I tried, showing me that people would even sub for 30 days, only to quit shortly after.  This is the last time I'll say it but they need to make 20 and up more solo friendly, because how it stands right now its only for grouping.  No other game has 90% of the quest REQUIRES 3 OR MORE PLAYERS stamped on most every quest after 20.

Vanguard is not the only secret little GEM of a game out their.  Have you looked at Dark Age Of Camelot, the interface still kind of sucks but the graphics are improved by far and the game it self is good.  The only problem is the interface is still not very user friendly as it could be. They are still getting new subs and old players are coming back.  The population feels like it's better than EQ2, not sure if it is but it really feels that way.

On the other hand you have EQ1.  This one is STILL DEAD even with a new expansion added that has mercenaries for hire to help solo the old game.

To make a long story short SOE really really pisses people off with their improvement systems, I think they suck as a gaming company with their 20 expansions per game to improve basics that should be free fixes.  And their improvement methods with expansions still suck anyway !!

Originally posted by luciusETRUR

they keep games like MxO and VG alive despite their obvious shortcomings in sales or launch problems.

I do get your point, but, erm, I hate to tell you this.... they let MxO die a while back.

It's long gone.

I'm sure it was just a commercial decision, and you can't blame a commercial organisation for making a commercial decision.

I also think you are (unfortunately) right about companies needing to move on to new products to move forward. The customer base is just way too unforgiving about games that don't deliver as promised.

Regardless, I still enjoy playing Vanguard. Did the Bugbear Caves Quest at Three Rivers yesterday (lvl 15-18?) with a pre-organised group of five players, and it was great fun! :)

Organising group play is the answer. ;)

Originally posted by Vyrolakos

Originally posted by luciusETRUR

they keep games like MxO and VG alive despite their obvious shortcomings in sales or launch problems.

 

I do get your point, but, erm, I hate to tell you this.... they let MxO die a while back.

It's long gone.

I'm sure it was just a commercial decision, and you can't blame a commercial organisation for making a commercial decision.

I also think you are (unfortunately) right about companies needing to move on to new products to move forward. The customer base is just way too unforgiving about games that don't deliver as promised.

Regardless, I still enjoy playing Vanguard. Did the Bugbear Caves Quest at Three Rivers yesterday (lvl 15-18?) with a pre-organised group of five players, and it was great fun! :)

Organising group play is the answer. ;)

I'm aware they let MxO die, but they let that game live way longer it would have with any other company. All I'm saying is SOE gets a bad wrap for making some poor decisions, but these same people can't look forward and look at what the company does as good or better than other companies.
 

Vanguard is a mediocre game at best with no future. Sigils interoffice mismanagement,drama and politics ensured this game would release in horrible condition while $oe ineptness ensures it will never succeed. $oe will not invest money up front to improve and advertise for vg in order to attract new players and vg will not attract new players without improvements and advertisement

A large, non linear,non instanced world is the main selling point but too much of the current gameplay is buried in game mentality from the 1990's. If vg launched in its current state it could have kept enough subs for the game to be better fleshed out and be a real force. Shoulda,woulda,coulda, that didnt happen so here we are.

Current vg is a fun game up to level 50 if you have some friends or guildies to group with, can overlook lots of bugs and broken mechanics, and understand it will suffer the same fate as MxO. Its not a question of if but a question of when.

Originally posted by luciusETRUR

Originally posted by Vyrolakos

Originally posted by luciusETRUR

they keep games like MxO and VG alive despite their obvious shortcomings in sales or launch problems.

 

I do get your point, but, erm, I hate to tell you this.... they let MxO die a while back.

It's long gone.

I'm sure it was just a commercial decision, and you can't blame a commercial organisation for making a commercial decision.

I also think you are (unfortunately) right about companies needing to move on to new products to move forward. The customer base is just way too unforgiving about games that don't deliver as promised.

Regardless, I still enjoy playing Vanguard. Did the Bugbear Caves Quest at Three Rivers yesterday (lvl 15-18?) with a pre-organised group of five players, and it was great fun! :)

Organising group play is the answer. ;)

I'm aware they let MxO die, but they let that game live way longer it would have with any other company. All I'm saying is SOE gets a bad wrap for making some poor decisions, but these same people can't look forward and look at what the company does as good or better than other companies.
 

Soe bought the matrix so they could get the DCU license.  Soe wasn't doing MXO any favors, because they thought it was a game with potential.  They also gutted that game as soon as they got their hands on it.  

Sure soe does some cool things, but it isn't like this is a +/- column on a spread sheet.  5 good deeds doesn't negate the bad deed, especially when soe knows ahead of time that the playerbase will not like it.  At the end of the day soe does enough bad things to piss many people off.  It is just how they operate thier games.